Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: browndown on August 08, 2010, 08:38:00 PM
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I'm looking for a book that I can get into that could help me with my shooting. I am looking for consistancy and I know its my form. Whats out there?
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Kisic Lee's "Total Archery Inside the Archer". Kind of expensive but if you really want the best break down of form that's the book!!
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You should also really consider getting one of the latest DVD's out there, they always say a picture is worth a thousand words, and video is even that much better! I bought Rick Welch's latest DVD last winter and it helped me more than many of the books on the subject that I have laying around the house. I have also heard that Masters of the Barebow III is very good. DK.
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My favorite book is "Instinctive Archery Insights" by Jay Kidwell. He is a sports psychologist and traditional archer.
The book helped me make huge strides in consistency. Helped my coaching too for working with kids.
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I agree with pickaspot. Jay Kidwell's book helped me immensely. Also includes a section with the only known way to defeat target panic.
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I'm an inveterate reader. I read everything I can find on traditional archery. I have two rows of archery and bowhunting related books, probably 40-50 books in all, and have read countless magazines and internet articles on the subject. My first thought on wanting to learn anything in life has always been: where can I find a book on it? In spite of that, I really can't recommend books as a very effective way to learn archery form and consistency.
If I had to guess, this is my breakdown on how much various forms of learning have contributed to my archery skills:
1. Personal instruction - 60%. Time actually spent in classes - 6 days in three classes.
2. Self learning through practice and trial and error - 15%. Time actually spent - the equivalent of about 1,000 days over 20 years.
3. Studying Terry's clock and related posts - 10%. Time actually spent - probably less than a day total.
4. Viewing instructional DVD's - 10%. Time actually spent - the equivalent of about 2 days viewing maybe 20 DVD's.
5. Reading books - 5%. Time actually spent - the equivalent of probably 200 days over twenty years (I would estimate that I read archery or bowhunting related magazines or books about an hour a day for about 100 days a year).
While the above is totally subjective, it is an honest assessment. For whatever that's worth, if you wanted to get the most bang for the amount of time required, you would study Terry's clock and all the related posts, and photograph and video yourself at full draw to see how you compare. For the greatest overall advancement, you would get personal instruction or attend a class.
All of the sources of archery information I noted are important to me, and I have enjoyed and benefitted from each of them. The least productive in terms of improving my archery skills for the amount of time invested has been self-education through shooting arrows on my own or with friends. But since shooting arrows for the fun of it is a significant reason for doing all the other things, it might really be the most important of all.
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I'm much like McDave with books. I have a bunch of them and enjoy reading them, but they are not the best way to learn archery.
IMHO, the best way to go is a coach to teach you the basics and then serious time on the bale to really learn your shot without the distraction of a target. Only when you know what to practice can your practice yield good results. It's too easy to practice the wrong thing.
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Guys, I thank you for spending the time to help me out.I have always been a hands on guy so I think I will go to a class to see what its about.
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In re-reading my post, I probably came on a little too strong, and don't mean to discourage anyone from any kind of learning that might benefit them. For example, I will probably buy the book Moebow recommended, just because I like to read, and will probably pick something up from that book that I hadn't known about before.
There are basically three styles of archery form that I am aware of in Western archery, as is commonly practiced in the United States. The first style is the purely instinctive, grip it and rip it style, and the book best known as a source of information for that style is Fred Asbell's Instinctive Shooting. The second style is the formal, target archery style as used in the Olympics, and it sounds like that style of shooting is the subject of the book Moebow recommended. The third style of archery is somewhere in between, the style of archery most often used in hunting and 3D tournaments, the style practiced by Terry Green, Rod Jenkins, and Rick Welch.
It is the third style of archery most of us on this forum are interested in, and while there are distinct differences between the styles used by the three individuals I mentioned, there are also enough similarities that I can distinguish their styles from the Asbell approach on the one hand, and the formal Olympic approach on the other. It is interesting that none of the three individuals I mentioned have a book on their style, that I am aware of, although all three have DVD's.
If there is a good book that explores this third style, I would sure like to read it, and didn't mean to cut off discussion of it.
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Self learning can be very useful if the right techniques are used. The use of mirrors can be very beneficial as well as videotaping yourself. The key is knowing what to look for in your self-assessments. Some of the best ways to know what to look for is watching, researching, and studying how experts shoot, from books, videos, photographs, or by having a critique of yourself from a qualified person. Personally, some day, I'd love to get a video camera set up with small TV and a delay (maybe about 7 seconds) to assess myself shoot on the spot. Right now, I have to have another person video for me in order to do this and then download. An on the spot assessment is the way to go.
Most coaches these days actual have a camera (a lot of times high speed) which they use to explain processes with. My coach for example shoots videos and stills of me all the time (for my use, himself and other students). He also shows me videos of other students or archers (doing things correctly and incorrectly).
I agree however, that if you are looking bang for the buck, a competent coach is the way to go as long as there is a good fit between coach and student. I know of a lot of people who look for the magic bow to help their shooting when their money could have been much better spent on coaching or instruction.
As far as one book, it's hard for me to pick. I have picked up different aspects from different books. My coach also supplies tons of articles to me on specific topics. I have read all of Coach Lee’s books, as I believe moebow has mentioned. These may or may not be completely useful for everyone. I am glad that Tyler Benner contributed a bunch to it, and I do refer to it often. Keep in mind however that this books audience is primarily Olympic style recurve (which I also do).
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Hi all, me again.
I seldom like to get into a discussion on "philosophy" but with all the talk about form lately, I feel that this is an appropriate time to take a shot at this area.
First, When I answered Browndown, I was specifically answering his specific question. Which was "I'm looking for a book...". He didn't ask, "what's the best approach to getting better form?" McDave and the others are EXACTLY correct that the best way to improve form is with lessons and videos with books coming in a distant third. No argument from me on that! However, if you want a complete and DETAILED breakdown of the archer's most efficient form (with pictures!) it is found in that book.
Second, I agree with McDave's latest observation about the common perception that there are three or more philosophical approaches to current American archery. But that is a perception that I think folks have and not necessarily how it is.
I would agree that Fred Asbell's approach looks like one extreme, if you really watch his form at full draw, he has really good alignment through the upper body that is not far from the other extreme mentioned, that of a highly trained Olympic style shooter.
The "middle of the road" archer mentioned is Rod Jenkins. He is so into the proper form in archery that it would surprise most of you. And, it is the BEST system (Olympic style) with little to no variation.
We in the "Trad community" and I am one too, are often guilty of a king of reverse snobbery when we say, "I don't shoot like that." "I only shoot one arrow because that's all I get when I'm hunting." "I only practice hunting shots because that's what I am -- a hunter." There are a lot more statements made like that.
I am REALLY NOT trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, here's my point:
If you learn good form, standing up, with a good stance, good posture, proper alignment, proper muscle use, proper release, and proper follow through, THEN when you must contort into a less than optimal position for your hunting shot, your subconscious and body can make adjustments for that because you know what your deviations are doing to you. YES, we are far more "casual" than a schooled and trained Olympic shooter, and I would never suggest that we shouldn't be (more casual that is).
As I said at the beginning, I avoid philosophical discussions because they are SUBJECTIVE! Many folks enjoy GREAT success shooting however they shoot and more power to them. But, building a good archer is my thing and this is what I think about form.
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Originally posted by moebow:
The "middle of the road" archer mentioned is Rod Jenkins. He is so into the proper form in archery that it would surprise most of you. And, it is the BEST system (Olympic style) with little to no variation.
Let me say that my intent is for discussion purposes only.
I'm not sure I am quite following you on the above quote. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
The BEST method is very specific. For example, location of specific anchor position, tightness of hand against the neck, thumb positioning on the stern mastoid muscle of the neck, types of tabs to be used, types of bow slings and sizes to be used, complete bow arm follow through, location of string contact on chin, types of shoes to be worn, proper aiming with the sight, when to aim in the shot cycle, clicker technique including when to look, when to hold, and when to expand from LAN2, positions of raising and drawing the bow in respect to the target, mindsets (in conversation with Rod, I do not believe that he incorporates this into his shot cycle.), etc. These are all coming off the top of my head, there are many more.
I'm not sure that I would agree that Rod uses the BEST method with little to no variation. I do believe that he incorporates aspects of the BEST method which work for him, but not the entire method.
In comparison or contrast, I would take a look at Jake Kaminski on YouTube, who probably is the closest to using the BEST method in its entirety.
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BobCo,
Exactly right. As I say, we're "more casual" in our approach. I'm not trying to say that we MUST "do it by the numbers" just that the basics are the basics. Bottom line as I see it is that if you can get to the basic structure of the BEST system, we will know how we are deviating from it and compensate accordingly. I guess that what I was trying to say about Rod's approach is that his upper body form, back tension, release is very "BEST" style. I know that he has had form discussions with Kisic Lee and they DO disagree about some of the aspects of form and the overall process.
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The chapters of "Inside the Archer" leading up to the chapter on expansion are essentially negated by the sentence (paraphrasing): "No matter how the archer gets to anchor, as long as he executes through expansion correctly he will shoot well."
If you choose to follow BEST/NTS as closely as possible, study the details of the book. If you want good form, regardless of shooting style, study the gist of the book. In either case, "Inside the Archer" is a great reference to have and should be one of many. Include DVDs or tapes in your library if you haven't already as seeing someone demonstrate a technique can be a quicker way of picking it up. Knowing more about archery can only help you find the best technique for you.
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Originally posted by moebow:
BobCo,
Exactly right. As I say, we're "more casual" in our approach. I'm not trying to say that we MUST "do it by the numbers" just that the basics are the basics. Bottom line as I see it is that if you can get to the basic structure of the BEST system, we will know how we are deviating from it and compensate accordingly. I guess that what I was trying to say about Rod's approach is that his upper body form, back tension, release is very "BEST" style. I know that he has had form discussions with Kisic Lee and they DO disagree about some of the aspects of form and the overall process.
I believe that a lot of the "basics" for example, back tension and alignment are not necessarily unique to the BEST method. The BEST method as a whole is unique. Within the BEST method, there are a wide variety of deviations between individuals as their individual understandings or interpretations differ. I see individuals (even coaches) at tournaments and in practice referring to their technique as the BEST method often. However, in reality as I see it, it is not.
I'm not saying that I am an absolute expert in the BEST method, however, my personal coach studies directly from Coach Lee on average of 3 weeks per year in the Olympic Facility in Colorado Springs. He also works with the Olympic Dream team, so I believe his info is about as up to date as it gets, as Coach Lee does make modifications often (even from his most recent book).
I'm also not saying that aspects cannot be gathered from his book by bare bow hunters, because I believe that they can. I would just forewarn them that there will also be a lot of info that may not be useful to support the hefty price of the book since the bare bow hunter is not necessarily the audience that the book is intended for. There are items that I bring to my hunting recurve but if I were to be asked if I use the BEST method for my hunting bow, I would say no, only certain aspects. I do use the method to the best of my ability in my Olympic Style recurve however.
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I respectfully disagree with moebow.
Everyone is different. Everyone learns differently. And, everyone can pick up different points from going over things multiple times.
Without having a whole lot of Trad archers around me, I realized all I knew is what I picked up years ago from videos of Fred Bear.
My solution was to read about every method I could. Then, test these methods. Then go back and re-read, and test some more.
In my opinion, only successful people can publish books which stay in the public domain. And, I want to know what successful people know.
I can go find some "coach" who may or may not know a whole lot about archery. Or I can let people like Fred Asbell be my coach through his books. Same with Howard Hill and Byron Ferguson. Why not? What's to lose, except a few bucks and a couple hours?
Certainly videos help. They're great if put together well. Self videos are extremely useful as are personal coaches. But, as for myself, I'm a big believer in acquaring knowledge anywhere I can. And, books have been at the top of my list for ... well, years.
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Bobaru,
I believe that you misunderstood what I was trying to say. But that's OK it won't be the first or last time that happened. I have many of the books written by the instructors you mention ( and others) and refer to them all the time. I've also been in classes by Ferguson and Asbell and taken a class from Bob Wesley who is one of the last active instructors that was taught by HH. I RECOMMEND books all the time, which is how this thread started in the first place. When I said that books were a distant third, all I was trying to say was that given the CHOICE of a "hands on instruction" by one of the mentioned instructors OR their books, the live instruction is better and at that point the book becomes a GREAT reference to reinforce what you got at the class. Videos are good because they show the actual motion in question not just a static picture.
As to finding "some 'coach' who may or may not know a whole lot about archery," if they are certified by NADA as a level 2 - intermediate instructor, level 3 - community coach, level 4 - regional coach, or higher; I respectfully submit that they MOST likely know something about archery.
All this discussion is really good in my opinion, but it DOES reinforce my earlier statement that my personal preference of AVOIDING philosophical discussions is fully justified.
ANY information is far better than just self discovery.
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Originally posted by s_mcflurry:
The chapters of "Inside the Archer" leading up to the chapter on expansion are essentially negated by the sentence (paraphrasing): "No matter how the archer gets to anchor, as long as he executes through expansion correctly he will shoot well."
Great observation. I had long explaination ready to go with my interpretation, but I noticed that it dealt too much with target archery, so I cut it down to this.
Who is the targeted audience of the book? Is it a target archer who is or wants to shoot well (maybe a 550 indoor FITA round), or is the book geared toward the elite target archer who wants to take it to the next level or wants to shoot better then well (someone that may want or dream to win a State or National indoor or outdoor tournament)?
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All this discussion is really good in my opinion, but it DOES reinforce my earlier statement that my personal preference of AVOIDING philosophical discussions is fully justified.
Well, if it's any consolation to you Arne, I have now received my copy of Kisic Lee's Total Archery Inside the Archer, which I feel may be the equivalent of giving a loaded gun to a five-year old. If anyone I know asks my opinion of what they're doing wrong with their shooting, I can now tell them that their third toe on their left foot is out of position, and how to correct it.
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And talking about consolation, I ordered three new books today so we'll both be reading for the near future. :readit:
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Originally posted by McDave:
If anyone I know asks my opinion of what they're doing wrong with their shooting, I can now tell them that their third toe on their left foot is out of position, and how to correct it.
:laughing:
When I think of "Inside the Archer", this hypothetical conversation always comes to mind...
Son: Dad, can you show me how to drive a car?
Dad: Sure, son, here you go.
Son: ...what's this?
Dad: It's an alternator. You said you wanted to learn how to drive a car, didn't you?
Don't get me wrong, I have the book and I think it's a great reference but for most it's overkill. At the same time, Asbell's "Instinctive Shooting" isn't enough. I haven't read Ferguson's "Become the Arrow", but I've heard good things.
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Originally posted by pickaspot:
My favorite book is "Instinctive Archery Insights" by Jay Kidwell. . . .
I'm pleased my book helped you guys, however, I wouldn't recommend my book as strong on form which is what he is looking for.
McDave and McFlurry - you guys are are a hoot!
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I think anyone who has accomplished much in his chosen field deserves to be heard. I think you would enjoy reading "Become the Arrow."
OTOH, I do think there is a difference between great teachers and great doers. Einstein was a remarkable physicist, but I don't think he would have been very good at teaching a 10th grade high school physics class, other than the fact that the students might have enjoyed meeting the greatest physicist who ever lived.
Which goes back to Moebow's comment above: "As to finding "some 'coach' who may or may not know a whole lot about archery," if they are certified by NADA as a level 2 - intermediate instructor, level 3 - community coach, level 4 - regional coach, or higher; I respectfully submit that they MOST likely know something about archery."
I would rather have a coach who is not a champion archer, but who understands how difficult it is for the average person to master a skill, and who has the ability to teach the average person how to get to the next level. The problem with a champion archer is that they have a natural ability that most of us don't have and won't ever get. They don't make the mistakes we make on a regular basis, and never have. So it is difficult for them to teach us how to avoid them. Whereas a person who has had to struggle to attain a proficiency level that is higher than the students they are teaching, but lower than the champions, is better able to understand the difficulties the students are facing and help them to overcome them.
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AMEN!!!! Dave has said it!! The most outstanding coaches in many (most) fields are not necessarily the great competitors. Look at golf for example, the coaches that the tour Pros go to are not the Tigers and Phils of golf, they are established coaches that if you are not a fan of golf, you've never heard of.
The "champions" are great shots and competitors but as McDave said, they have that extra knack to shoot well and win but may not have the best instructional technique since they have a more natural talent the the majority of us have to struggle with and develop.
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Originally posted by McDave:
I would rather have a coach who is not a champion archer, but who understands how difficult it is for the average person to master a skill, and who has the ability to teach the average person how to get to the next level. The problem with a champion archer is that they have a natural ability that most of us don't have and won't ever get. They don't make the mistakes we make on a regular basis, and never have. So it is difficult for them to teach us how to avoid them. Whereas a person who has had to struggle to attain a proficiency level that is higher than the students they are teaching, but lower than the champions, is better able to understand the difficulties the students are facing and help them to overcome them.
Good stuff, I like it.
FWIW, when a person gets into the higher levels of NADA certified archery coaching their certifying coach usually makes them take a strict coaching course (rarely has anything to do with archery specifically). Currently, I have taken an ASEP coaching course which my personal coach requested me to take in order to consider moving me up a level. It involved an awful lot more then I had ever thought of previously. I also coach students as he coaches my coaching ;) . I've been working on moving up a level for over 3 months now.
All of this still does not mean that a student and coach will mesh though.
I agree that a coach does not need to be a champion; however, the champion with proper coaching training can be a great combination.
IMO a coach does need the ability to demonstrate flawlessly.
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I'm not sure how far I'd have to travel to get with a certified coach. The only thing I'm certified to coach is skydiving. And, believe me, there's tons of differences between certified skydiving coaches. So, if I were to transfer that knowledge over from a coaching field I'm familiar with to one in which I'm not familiar, I'd be weary of spending much money to be coached in archery.
Not really sure how Einstein fits in, but I'm sure he fits in somewhere.
In the meantime, I continue to respectfully diagree.
Have a nice day gentlemen.
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Browndown...you won't regret taking a class, I took Rod's clinic 3 weeks ago and learned more that weekend than in the years before; HOWEVER, all the stuff I read combined with an open mind allowed me to absorb the instruction better and understand it faster.
That's what worked for me...
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Thanks for all the feedback, always looking forward to learning.
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There's a books worth of info right here on this site....and its more devoted to the HUNTING archer if that is what you are after. I would also seek advise from a HUNTING archer. Lots of folk can teach you the same old back yard shot, but not a lot can teach you how to pull off shots in the woods.
I agree...if I was going to BOWHUNT...I would not want to learn a method that made me not be able to pull off a shot if my right heel was on a pine cone. I prefer a method that doesn't even consciously recognize the pine cone.
Nothing worse that paralysis by analysis. I think over thinking so much stuff is what leads to the biggest problem in shooting trad bows.....target panic.