Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: razorback on October 27, 2010, 07:47:00 AM
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I have finally started a concerted effort to improve my form after several years of just shooting. One area I think i need to improve is my grip on the bow. I am shooting a grizzly recurve and I think I am rotating my hand around the grip to move my wrist away from the string. From what I have read I should be moving my my grip back the other way a little, pushing my thumb forward and my nuckles back to the front of the bow.
I will try to post pics and a video soon.
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I should be moving my my grip back the other way a little, pushing my thumb forward and my (K)nuckles back to the front of the bow.
Yes, that sounds right; but without the benefit of pix, it's hard to say.
Ideally, you want the left edge of the grip aligned with your "life line" (RH shooter) which would place the bulk of the grip in the meaty portion of your hand at the base of your thumb. In other words, the 'belly' side of the grip would be sitting between the line at the joint/base of your thumb and the next line, your "life line". This will allow your relaxed fingers to curl loosely around the back of the grip.
If you have trouble with string to forearm/wrist contact, you might try opening your stance a bit.
If you've been using your current grip for some time, it may take some dedicated time on a blank bale with your eyes closed focusing on the new grip, until it happens automatically and feels normal to you.
Good Luck, and Keep it Fun! :jumper:
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About 12 years ago, after reading Fred Asbell's first book, I changed my grip to be somewhat similar to his...haven't had a string slap since and my consistency has improved. Previously, I was using a low-wrist grip with the lifeline of my bowhand about centered on the grip.
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Watch your thumb pressure against the bow handle. When you are at full draw, consciously relax your thumb, and see if the bow angle wants to change. If it does, you are torqueing the bow with your thumb, which is one of many ways to throw your shots off to the left (RH shooter).
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Originally posted by McDave:
Watch your thumb pressure against the bow handle. When you are at full draw, consciously relax your thumb, and see if the bow angle wants to change. If it does, you are torqueing the bow with your thumb, which is one of many ways to throw your shots off to the left (RH shooter).
:thumbsup:
:archer2:
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Here come 7 pictures showing a way to hold the bow grip.
Yellow is the life line, white and red show where the center of pressure should be in your hand.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand1.jpg)
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As you place the grip into your hand, keep the lifeline (yellow) off the grip.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand2.jpg)
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How your hand should look, more views follow
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand3.jpg)
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A view from the bottom. Notice that the meaty part of the hand below the little finger does not touch the grip.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand4.jpg)
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Views from the side showing how the base of the thumb rides on the grip.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand5.jpg)
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Note the position of the thumb knuckle in relation to the center of the bow -- marked. That knuckle should be JUST to the right side of the center line for right handed shooter.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand6.jpg)
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Last one. At full draw, it is common that the grip of the bow will force the thumb knuckle around the grip to the right. DON'T LET IT!! The knuckle needs to stay in the relation shown.
This is the grip taught in the National Training system. It works but if you don't like it, at least keep that thumb knuckle just to the right of the center line of the bow and the center of pressure on the meaty part of your thumb.
FWIW
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/moebow1/Arrows/bowhand7.jpg)
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Really a nice piece of work, MB. Thanks for making the time and effort to share your expertise in such a 'graphic' manner! :clapper:
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Yeah, those pics are great!!!
Travis
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Thanks for all the info guys and those pictures are great. Never could tell which was my life line before, now I know its the BIG LONG ONE, looks good for a long future, :thumbsup:
Will work on the advice and see if it makes change.
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moebow hit it right on the nose! great illustration!
Pressure on the base of the thumb with only the top finger and the thumb contacting the sides of the bow.
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Moebow that's some great info. Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks for the post! I'm gonna practice this hold and see if I improve! My life line is short..hmmmm hope it's BS. :)
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Nice Widow BTW!
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Does the same grip work on a recurve grip that is much deeper than the grip you are using. I have been working it a little, not much time, and realize that most of my pressure has been in the web of my thumb.
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I use the same grip on all bows. You will find, I think, that the larger pistol grip styles found on recurves mostly will take some "playing" with to get it right. The basic theory doe not change. Regardless of the style, try to get that center of pressure from the bow grip into the meaty part of the base of your thumb and the life line to the side as shown in the pictures.
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Thanks for the advise, will be spending a lot of time this winter working on my technique. Will have many questions as time goes on
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Arne, I noticed that you have,what seems to be, a lot of pressure on your little finger. Is this part of the grip or just your personal style. I have been trying to keep my fingers relaxed and even off the bow.
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razor, There's not as much pressure as it looks like but I see what you are asking about. Fingers relaxed is what you want but don't keep them off the bow. That leads to unwanted tension in your bow forearm. Some will curl the little finger under and some even curl the little finger and the ring finger under. Once the bow puts pressure into the base of the thumb, you can specifically relax the bow hand even more. Just keep your fingers on the bow so you don't start "clutching" or grasping the bow to catch it on the shot.
Try this little experiment. Hold your bow hand out and TOTALLY relax it. Your fingers should take a naturally curled position. Now with your right hand, feel how relaxed the tendons in your bow forearm are. Now open your bow hand. Feel the tendons take on tension? That is tension that is unneeded and really unwanted.
Finally, you must find a grip that is comfortable and repeatable. As I said earlier, keep the center of pressure in the base of your thumb and the thumb knuckle just to the right of the center line as shown in the pictures. Just don't get yourself in the position of having to catch the bow upon the shot. Some shooters will use a finger sling to secure the bow but I personally don't want to use any more equipment than I have too.
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Really great and clear photos. I appreciate you attention to detail.
Ralph
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Great info on hand placement , love tradgang
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Are there any tricks to keep me from "grabbing" the bow on release? If I try the grip Moe recommends I always find myself grabbing (habits). If I shoot by touching my thumb with my index finger around the throat of the grip (OK sign) I find I have less torque but I would rather grip with the natural curl?????
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If you have light tension in your hand, you should not have to "catch" the bow on release. The fingers will already be on the back of the bow and will simply hold it. If you have a problem with the idea of the security of the bow, you might try a finger sling until you feel more confident that you won't drop the bow. I suggest that if you are "touching your thumb and forefinger" you have your hand way too deep in the bow and frankly, that is a source of torque not a reduction of torque.
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Nice photos and description and I do enjoy Moebow's tutorials. But, not every seemingly correct and theoretically sound approach works well for every single shooter. If it did we'd all look and shoot exactly the same...and be Robin Hood in short order. How boring would that be? (no offense to compound shooters) :p
Hand placement is just one component of consistency and consistency is mostly about getting and keeping good alignment between the target, arrow (eye), and drawing elbow. If your bow hand is unnaturally 'crooked' on the grip, or allows horizontal or lateral bow movement before the arrow leaves the shelf, or needs to be adjusted to 'feel right' or to hold the bow weight while you draw to anchor, or feels 'shocky' when you release the string, then it's probably not the right hand placement for that particular bow. A straight unmoving line from target to drawing elbow...simple concept, not-so-simple process, but not rocket science. Tempering science and observation with LOTS of common sense has it's advantages.
Whatever hand-to-bow placement helps you to get and maintain the line is what you are after. It may mean a loose grip, as many have found works best for them. Or it may mean a much firmer grip, as many others have found effective (including me). Pick what works for you by testing various approaches and don't forget to try them out under the circumstances you will normally be shooting (target line, treestand, kneeling, sitting, gloves on or off, bow quiver on or off, etc). An open mind and objective testing works better than a paint-by-someone-else's-numbers approach.
Tweaking your form components is a 'hands on' job that requires a careful process to be sure...but there's no need to make it harder than it is and no need to depend on someone's else's 'right' to find your own. :archer2:
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The pictures I posted here were a suggestion of a grip to try. I said in the first picture that; "Here come 7 pictures showing a way to hold the bow grip." A WAY! All the rest of my input to this was in describing or explaining how this grip works or answering questions about it. It was NOT EVER implied that this "is how you have to do it!"
I have said many times and will always maintain that the form/technique SUGGESTIONS I make are to try to get folks to THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THEY DO IT --NOT to say "This is how you HAVE to do it!"
Seems as though we have firmly established the disclaimer on this forum (shooter's)that there are many ways to do something and no one way will work for everybody.
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Moebow, I understand what you are trying to do. And as I said earlier, I basically like (and agree with...mostly) your teachings. But when 'this is one way' approaches are as finely detailed and pictured in their presentations as yours are, the result can easily be mistaken as the 'mostly right' way, especially by beginners. Not intended perhaps, but nevertheless a very real possibility for those looking for an answer or fix. Don't take my post the wrong way. As you said, the goal is to make folks think. I'm simply suggesting that they think outside the 'pretty pictures and detailed descriptions' boxes (regardless of who offers them), use them for ideas, but rely mostly on their OWN ability to test for, observe and learn from their OWN trials and errors. Sorry if you took it differently.
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So we should dumb down our suggestions...
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This is what has come to irk me about the shooter's forum. A member comes with a question after their own trial/error methods fail to produce the desired results. A knowledgeable, and qualified member takes his time and expertise to help, sometimes complete with photos/videos, etc. of ONE way to do something and somebody always has to jump on that person even though the caveat is well written that this is but one way to do something.
Trad Gang is a very respectful place that we all come to for learning and enjoyment. If you have a different suggestion, offer it in a helpful manner. If all you wish to do is to belittle those who offer qualified help, then back away from the keyboard.
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Moebow, that is a great illustration and I can't wait to try it when I shoot next. Thanks for taking the time to help everyone out.
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Moebow,don't ever back off with your teaching.I admire your tutorials and knowledge.
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wow...great pictorial...i was just in the local pro shop yesterday looking at a line of longbows i really like.."bushman longbows" built by a local guy named Steve Jewett..really nice in stockers he has hanging in the shop..was thinking about making one an early christmas present for myself..until i pulled against the grip..just didnt want to "seat" real well..now i'm thinking...is it the grip?..or is it that i'm spoiled by the awesome fitting grip on my Bob Lee TD Recurve and rollie-pollie grips are just the nature of the beast with longbows?..and i wasnt do'in it right?..i dunno..but i do love steve's longbows..just dont know how i'd fair with the grip. :(
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JINKSTER, The grip I show in this thread is a good one but only you can determine if it is right for you. I find that it adapts to every bow I shoot. If you can shoot some of the bows you are admiring and have time to play with your hand on the bow you may find a combination that works for you. Your comfort and confidence is what will make the grip right for you or not. If Steve is a "local" for you he may be able to adjust the grip on his bows to your liking too.
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Thanks for the pictures moebow. I have been hitting left consistently for awhile now and I think it has something to do with dropping my bow arm or my grip and torque. I'm going to try this grip and concentrate on relaxing the hand particularly the thumb. The pics and detailed descriptions are the best way to learn a style and try it out to see if it works for you. In MBB 4 Darryl Quidort says he grips the bow tight; about like you would choke a snake. That doesn't work for me.
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TSP, having been in archery for over 40yrs. in one form or another, it seems to me that it is common knowledge that if you ask for help your going to get a potpourri of ideas coming forth.Anyone that shoots a bow knows this is the reason their are so many books out on the subject of getting a good shot off. So I would have to assume that you, in your superior knowledge also condemn the likes of F. Bear, H Hill, David Miller, G.F.Asbell, Byron Ferguson, etc,and etc, as everyone of them, plus many others, include pictures and dialog in their books. So I must also then assume you are either a fool or you consider your fellow archers as an individuals who cannot think or reason for themselves so you and a few select others must protect them from such things. What Say You TSP! :archer:
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moebow...
Great post/thread. Really nothing more needs to be said. I really don't think it can be explained or shown any better than what you did. The pic from below was great. Peeps need to understand their entire hand is not on the grip.
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To Green and cbCrow...read my above posts again, this time with an open mind, please. Nowhere is there any intended or stated 'disrespect' for Moeboe's belief's about how-to-do...and in fact I stated that point fairly clearly and stated I agree with and enjoy most of his posts. The same can't be said for your own posted points of insult, however (perhaps you should read them over again, too). Maybe the mirror only works one way for you, but in any case I stand by my earlier message that one's own experience makes for the best teacher, and advice of any nature and from any source deserves to be given and taken with caution, lest it be misinterpreted. If you disagree with that point then that is certainly your privilege, but any misconception or dislike you may form about the message (or messenger) doesn't come with a right to cast the very nature of dispersions that you accuse the messenger of. I believe the term for that practice is known as 'calling the kettle black'...and besides being disingenuous it is against the written rules of this forum and the unwritten rules of constructive discussion.
If there is disagreement about opinions then let it be rational. If there are personal attacks or name-calling for the sake of defending one's own opinion or position then let it be addressed for what it is by the forum moderators and handled accordingly. I am comfortable with that approach. Are you?
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Moebow....I have a question for you. I see in your pics that you use the pad of your hand (between red and yellow) to take the pressure of the bow. Now alot of what I read (books not forum) suggest putting the pressure of the bow in the "V" between the thumb and pointer finger (the "OK" sign with your fingers).
Do you have any issues with torquing the bow upon release?
I am not doubting what works for you or others. This caught my attention and really interested me. Thanks
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I believe what you are describing is the high wrist grip. Many shoot very well with it. The grip I describe here is the low wrist that is currently taught in the National training system (NTS). Its advantage is that the distance from the bow grip to the ulna in your arm is shorter than if all the pressure is in the Y of your hand. EITHER will work! The high level competitors have pretty much abandoned the high wrist in favor of the low wrist, FWIW.
If the low wrist is done correctly, there should be NO torque to the bow.
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thanks for the help.
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I have tried and can shoot using both, Moe's method described here works much better for me, it has made my shooting much more reliable and I can go from one bow to the next with a minimal of adjustment.
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TSP - I did as you asked and reread both your posts. My initial reading of your next to last sentence 5 weeks ago hit me the wrong way. I feel that Arne did, and has always done, a good job of disclaiming things and the second to last sentence in your post on 10/23 read to me to be belittling the effort he made, and continues to make, for those members who come here seeking guidance.
In rereading your posts after this much time has elapsed I agree with what you're saying to those asking for help re seeking as many opinions and methods as possible. Arne has been a huge help to me personally and I owe the man a huge debt of gratitude for the immense amount of time he has spent guiding myself and many others along. My post was in defense of what I perceived to be a slight on his selfless nature and expertise.
You have my apologies for posting that in an open forum instead of PM'ing you in a questioning manner. It was not my manner to call you out, but that's the problem with the internet...you get no facial features or voice inflection and maybe I should have taken my own advice and backed away from the keyboard.
I hope you accept this apology so we can return to the informative nature of this thread.
Rob Green
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Green, apology accepted sir. You are absolutely correct that at times its easy to 'say' things on these forums and have it not turn out as intended. My foot hits my mouth way more often than it should (at least my wife keeps telling me that, lol). I guess we all have such a keen interest in many of these topics that getting 'excited' (i.e., hot under the collar) is hard to avoid. I should try harder.
Please accept my 'computer handshake'... and yup, let's keep on keepin' the faith on healthy archery discussion. :campfire:
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Just ran across this chain last night - spent an hour following Moebow's advice & great improvements in grouping at the20 & 30m I was shooting at - mucho thx for your advice Moebow - I didn't know what I didn't know but now you've enlightened me to the variable thats my wrist - you should've been my Kung fu master -M
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Arne is phenominal. He is also a very very nice guy who helps a lot of us. This grip tutorial is the best in the business
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Great advice, MB!! Thanx!!!
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Warning!!! Impending Thread Hijack!!!!
What are you guys thoughts on this.......
I have nerve damage in my hands and wrists. How bad? I burned a blister on my left hand on the grill last night. About 1/4"x1", I didn't even feel it, just smelled the burning hair.
This obviously leads to my grip trying to wander around.
My Dorado is a pita, the grip is kinda' small.
My Sage is a little better.
My Nomad from the 70's better.
If I can get it right, an Ace bandage around the wrist helps minimize the wobbly grip, a little.
Anyone ever work with or see anyone with a similar problem?
I'm really open to all ideas.
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og, That is really hard to help with with out being there. Remember that the bow hand is nothing more than a brace point for the bow to push against as it is drawn. The less tension there the better.
That said, without feeling in the hand or wrist, it may be hard to get it set the same way each time. Have you experimented with various types of slings to help retain the bow as it is shot? You might find that a sling of some sort will also help with positioning too.
I would think that trying various ways of getting the center of pressure of the bow as close to the end of your forearm bone (Ulna) through the use of the low wrist grip shown MAY help. But again, without actually seeing it is hard to suggest much more.
Arne
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Hey Moebow.
I have about 35% of my grip in my left hand and around 50% in my right, at least the Docs say so.
So far I can't seem to keep my lifeline off the handle. My hand wants to let everything settle toward the middle of my hand.
I tried again last night and I can tell I'm really putting a lot of pressure on my thumb. Not the base, outward way from the bow.
I seem to get my best consistency by letting my hand collapse outward, till it locks against the tendons.
I guess i need to get some pics posted.
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Ya, you may have to let the grip go more into your palm. I would like to see some pictures if you can post or PM them.
Arne
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Moebow, just wanted to thank you for this post. Coming from a recurve backgroud to a broom handle
longbow (GN Fieldbow) I was having a hard time adjusting. Your grip tips were just what I needed.
Thanks again, Keith.
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TTt because this is some very usefull info
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Just reviewed this post again. It is excellent and needs to be moved up once again. Thanks Moebow, job well done. :thumbsup:
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Wow a blast from the past, although I do link it rather frequently when someone asks about the bow grip.
Thanks Bill!
Arne