Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: stretch2 on November 13, 2010, 12:14:00 PM
-
I was just wondering what everyone's ideas are about this. I have been shooting for about 6 years and am frustrated. shooting at a paper plate in my back yard how far should I be from the plate and how many arrows should I be able to put in the plate before I could consider being good enough to harvest an animal. I hope that make sense.
-
Keeping your arrows in a paper plate has been a rule of thumb for many years. I just don't take a shot unless I'm pretty darned sure I can kill the animal. There are so many variables in hunting that your hunting distance may not be the same as your paper plate distance. Closer is always better for me.
-
"Bowhunting is seeing how close you can get and never miss your mark".
The above statement needs to be determined by you. I practice by shooting at a 4" square piece of corrugated box and practice from 5-20yds. As far as I'm concerned the closer the better! :archer:
-
I like 15 yards or less ,I feel very good at that distance. As for a 6 inch paper plate I will hit it 9 out of 10 times at 13 yards.
-
Take a judo point and walk around the yard or field shooting at anything that pops up in your range. If you can hit within a couple inches of the object you should be good.
-
I went out and bought a Rinehart Rhinoblock target which has two deer vitals sides. I judge my effective range by how far away I can consistently hit the vitals. It is right around 15 metres.
DDave
-
I think it also has a lot to do with how far away from the target you practice. I try and put about 25-30 arrows in the target every day at 20 yds. and so I can hit consistently at that range, but shoot like every arrow is the only arrow shot I have at that monster buck. I practice on a bag target but prefer a 3d deer as it is more realistic.
-
Here is my take on accuracy... or more correctly hunting accuracy after having lost two animals in my life, one with my bow, one with my muzzleloader , and having the good fortune to have been able to track to conclusion several others.
I'm not a big killer by any means, but I've come recently to resort to a particular methodology that has not lost me an animal in now probably 10 years. Rule #1... Pass up shots that are not 100% (and no shot is 100%... but you know what I mean...). This I've done and therefore I've had many more animals in front of me than I've loosed the string on.
Rule #2. Feel good about the shot. I can't quantify this for you, it's subjective... but again, I think you all know what I mean.
Rule #3. Practice, practice, practice, and like real estate, location, location, location.
I practice into basically coffee cans with blunts, from 5 yards to 22 yards (my shooting range currently till I can clear more bushes out...) and I rove incessently while I'm hunting.
Effective range is something I personally think is something you feel comfortable with. Pie plates are great, easy to see but can also give you a false sense of accomplishment. Regardless of what you use, 100% should be the goal in my opinion.
Aloha... :cool:
-
Try starting at almost point blank range (5yds). Make a small dot on your target and focus/concentrate only on that spot not the whole plate or vitals. Work at that until everything else (drawing, anchoring, release) is not even a thought anymore. Then start moving back in yardage and focus only on the spot.
I use the term yardage as that should be a consideration when making a shot but picking a spot, seeing the shot and knowing/feeling I can make that shot is all it should be. I never know the yardage when practicing or shooting game. Just my limitations of what I see and feel. But once I started seeing inconsistencies with hitting my mark I knew that point was past my limitations. For me that would be about anything past 30 yards. Hope this dosen't confuse.
Always good to have a friend there that can watch you shot and also give little recommendations on form etc.
Target panic may be another cause if you feel you are not consistent.
The stump shooting as mentioned if you can and picking out a single leaf, stick etc. is the best practice (for me) that I know.
Best to you, hang in there it will come together for you.
-
If you use your plate as you stated, I would suggest that you move to a spot of unknown distance. The distance can be anywhere from 10 ft to 25 yds your goal is to use your feel for the shot. Take only one shot as you move around. Try this and see how close you come to the spot you pick. This is a better test than standing in the same spot and shooting the same target. You will surprise yourself. I use cotton balls in a bale sometimes and come very close to hitting most of the time. I am working on form some but I shoot well when I feel the shot.
-
Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations".
Our equipment has it's limitations too.
Know what accuracy you can achieve under pressure and get to within that distance before you let go of an arrow.
The distance is different for each individual because we all have different skill levels. And it's different under different conditions.
For the most part this is between you and God. Take shots that won't disappoint either and you'll be ok.
Allen
-
I've found that a paper plate is too big an aiming target also, if I have the whole plate the group fills it up.... The cotton ball idea is great and I'm going to play with that. Now I find that stump shooting with a tennis ball and judo/hex points can tighten up your focus pretty quick at different yardage. I usually just shoot a max of three arrows at a time at the ball and usuall hit at least two with a touch. Gives me the confedence out to 20 yds easy.
-
Another good gauge is a one-gallon milk bottle and blunts or field points. If you can hit that milk jug every time you're in an area the size of a deer's vitals and that will tell you your distance limit.
Throw the jug and shoot, or shoot once and move to another location. Don't just stand at one distance and lob multiple arrows (that's target shooting, not hunting practice). You also have to learn to pick a spot on a larger object.
If you put a little dirt or water in the jug you can throw it further . . . until it leaks out the holes.
-
thanks for all the advice. now I have lots of things to try to get better. and practice practice practice! thanks for the renewed confidence you guys have given me. its easy to get frustrated when you talk to the guys that shoot bows with wheels on them how they shoot 50 to 60 yards or more. but then I have to remember why I choose traditional gear. because I love the crap out of this stuff! thanks again for all the help
-
Just remember- those guys shooting 50 or 60 yards are missing, or worse, wounding a lot of animals. Too much can happen in the time it takes even the fastest arrow to go that far.
Learning that I shouldn't take a shot over 25 yards with a compound is one of the things that brought me back to traditional.
-
Go small game hunting. Shooting a deer target and a live deer are two different things. I make my best shots at deer after I have made a few shots at rabbits and squirrels. Rabbits and squirrels taste better than target any day.
-
Brandon,
Good archery equipment can be accurate at distances where it would be hard to tell a buck from a doe. It takes a lot of practice, and a high draw weight, but I am sure a hunter could effectivly kill a deer with a traditional type hunting bow at 50-60 yards.
I regularly practice shooting at a spherical target from variable distances. I think the target I have is made by Rhinehart. It's not exactly a sphere but close. It's about 18 or 20 inches through the middle and has 4 inch or so circles around it.
I warm up by starting at 10 yards. If I get my arrow in the center, I back up to 15 yards and shoot again. In the center, back up to 20. I do this all the way back to 30. If I don't get in the center I shoot one more arrow. If not again I collect my arrows from the target and start back at 10 yards.
After warming up, I will stand facing the target and pitch a tennis ball over my head. I go to the ball and make a shot, regardless of distance or angle.
My maximum effective range is 30 yards. I am currently practicing out to 40 yards in preperation for a Pronghorn hunt next fall.
Good luck with your practice.
OkKeith
-
One little thing I will add here is know your effective rande and stick with it. I know this has already been stated but I have a twist on it. A lot of people would say there efffective range is only 10 yd and not go hunting. Well the last 3 deer I have shot (only the last one with trad gear) were 10 yd or less. This range is not me personal limitation(25yd for trad.) but I set stands to be close and if you do this and do not take shots beyond your range, you will be a much better hunter in the long run, even if you never get that close shot. Be patient with your shooting, but I bet you will find that you can shoot well enough right now to kill at 10 yd so dont just sit at home and practice go hunting and get close!!!!
-
The "pie plate at 20 yards" test is a good starting point. There's a lot of variables, though that make it more difficult. Like shooting 1 arrow with no warm-up. The pressure of a live animal causing you to rush the shot. Or shooting from a treestand, or with low light, or from an awkward position. Test yourself under these conditions, and you'll know if you should take that shot if presented.
-
I started out as a kid with a long bow. I got a recurve in college. started hunting by using the gap method the first couple of years. had lost my right eye so yardage estimation was terrible. shot my first deer at 20 yards because i measured the distance the trail was from the tree stand. compounds came out about then and the let-off and sights took me away for many years. I was a very dedicated target archer 100 arrows on the slow days. several hundred on the weekends. went back to traditional 20 years or so ago because i was way to deadly, to the point that i was no longer hunting i was killing. was either going to quit archery or go back to the very basics. i hung out with some of the biggest names in target archery and knew about every aiming trick and technique there was. I was determined to learn to shoot instinctively and learn to do it well. I seldom shoot 100 arrows a week now, but as few as 5 years ago could consistantly put 55 out of 60 in the 5 ring on an NFAA 20 yard indoor target. occasionaly would put 59 in but never did 60 out of 60. So when i hear guys kind of bad mouth "target archers" i wonder how good they really are. standing at 20 yards and shooting arrow after arrow after arrow into the 5 ring at 20 yards teaches you form. CONSISTANT FORM. When you learn to take that "last look" at the target and use that to trigger your release you will figure out that the only limit to your ability to hit the five ring is your ability to see it. Picking a spot demands that you be able to see a spot. If you teach your self to shoot truely instinctively there are only two distances no matter what the yardage. there is the distance that you think you can hit the target at and the distance that you are not sure. when you shoot purely instinctively you will hit the first one and miss the second one. When you are in doubt you will miss. Shoot that gold spot or black spot fom the same distance untill you hit it 4 times out of 5 and the 5th one is just barely a miss. You have no excuse for missing when the distance is the same and the arrow is the same and the bow is the same. if you miss you did something wrong with your form. pay attention to that form until you don't miss. If you are going to use some aiming system, then go ahead and put a sight pin on your bow as it is the most accurate aiming device man has devised. other wise just look at the smallest spot your eye can see and use proper form. distance means nothing, you either think you can hit it or you are in doubt. I quite often am amazed at how far the animal was after i shoot him. Some times i feel like "man is that arrow ever going to get there" and step off 50 to 70 yard shots. The arrow just hangs in the air. it dawns on me during that time in fight that it was a long shot. for those that wonder if this will ever come to you, remember that i have been shooting seriously for well over 40 years now. it takes dedication but it is the most fun a guy can have with out a female companion.
-
Practice practice practice. Even then your going to miss. I can shoot rather well now that I have the basics down. I never miss the vitals on my deer target when shooting from 20 yards, but yet I missed a mule deer doe last weekend. I misjudged the distance. Nothing wrong with my shooting ability I shot perfectly under her chest.
-
I think your quarry has a lot to do with it. I'm not a good enough stalker to get in really close, and have a hard time sitting. I haven't shot enough to feel confident out to 30, so I don't hunt traditional yet, but hopefully will this next season.
-
Don't loose until you "know". And you'll know at full draw.
-
At what range do your groups start spreading?
That's your range.
Most likley within 20 yards.
-
Originally posted by Kip l Hoffman:
as few as 5 years ago could consistantly put 55 out of 60 in the 5 ring on an NFAA 20 yard indoor target. occasionaly would put 59 in but never did 60 out of 60.
Kip amazing shooting, what Setup did you shoot these indoor rounds (poundage\\arrows etc) with and where\\when did you shoot i.e practice or tourney?
The IFAA world records for Recurve Barebow is 285 and Unsighted compound 294 and seems 55 spots puts you up there and 59 spots puts you over those scores.
I agree being able to shoot 60 arrows at 20y consistently and and still maintain accuracy demonstates control and confidence in shooting ability which is a good basis for any shooting discipline, Bowhunting or Tourney.
-
Until you [ and only you can answer this ] can confidently take a shot that , all things being equal, will quickly and humanely dispatch the animal that you are shooting at. This means being able to put your arrow into the spot consistently ...
For a lot of us , it is a much shorter distance than we think...lol
-
That is some scary good shooting Kip! You would also be right up there seriously competing with Olympic quality athletes. An average of 285 (which could easily be done with consistantly shooting 55 out 60 5's) would have put you in second place behind Victor Wunderle (3 time Olympian) in the 2009 NFAA National Indoor Tournament. And thats the Freestyle Limited Recurve/Longbow class.
-
It is possible to shoot some tidy scores in your backyard, no pressures or with distractions on the line in a club or at a tourney.
I hear on many Forums of people claiming to shoot WR scores in practice (like it's easy), it is quite possible to do this in your backyard but it's much harder to do on the line at a National or International tourney.
When I shoot in a tourney I can sometimes be a good 20 points down on my practice scores
-
All this talk of shooting little bulleyes like a machine makes me want to get another FITA set up. I never quite got that 300 PAA round myself, the average was pretty close to it. I gave it up because target accuracy did equate to hunting accuracy. zeta has it correct, the back yard and a shot with pressure on it are two different things. The pressures for deer hunting for some are stressful to the point of being a threat to ones heart, according to a doctor on the news. Finding a style that can work while your heart is exploding and then probably adding that it is from a tree, waiting until one can hit a silver dollar sized target 99% at 20 yards will be a long and unneeded wait. Go stump shooting and get fussy with yourself, you will know for yourself when you want to shoot something more than dandelions and paper circles. The blank target is a great form learning tool, I have my doubts how far adding paper to it will improve your hunting accuracy.
-
I like to practice and 20 yards and less, I try to keep my hunting shots at 15 yards or less. I didnt feel comfortable hunting until I could cosistently hit the vitals on my 3d deer from twenty yards. Its alot easier shooting a target than something that is alive that you cannot predict. Also if your going to hunt from a stand I would practice shooting from a stand if you can. Those steep angles changes the whole game in my opinion. Good Luck.
-
They say a paper plate,but I never recommend it. Its the smallest point you can accurately shoot at a distance. Very simple
-
Just go sit in a blown down tree or low stand and shoot every squirrel that comes inside 20 yards on the ground. You will miss most but it will seriously help you when it comes time to shoot a deer.
-
I have a different take on hunting accuracy and how good you should be to hunt.
I say it does not matter how good a shot you are. Can't tell you how many superb 3D shooters I've seen wound and miss deer at very close range. Very, very close range.
Putting some parameter on accuracy makes no sense because hunting brings with it a nervous aspect not seen in target shooting.
As for wounding deer; If you are afraid to wound an animal you really shouldn't be hunting in the first place. Few of us will admit to wounding a deer. But we all know it happens a good deal of the time. If you have not hunted yet, and don't believe this, then go to a 3D match some day and watch where the majority of archers hit their close range McKenzie deer.
Even inside 20 yards most shots on the foam would be wounding shots. And this without the tension of drawing down on a living creature.
So I say any person who has got sharp broadheads and can come to complete draw and is willing to shoot only inside 20 yards is good to go. In the end most of these novices get no better or worse results than many very experiences bow hunters.
Jack
-
Originally posted by Carbon Jack:
I say it does not matter how good a shot you are. Can't tell you how many superb 3D shooters I've seen wound and miss deer at very close range. Very, very close range.
Putting some parameter on accuracy makes no sense because hunting brings with it a nervous aspect not seen in target shooting.
Jack
I would say being a GOOD shot is a very positive starting point and would go so far as to say you have much better odds of making a clean kill shot than if you were just an average or bad shot.
This kind of talk is just an opportunity to trash tourney shooters, I would say being nervous will impact accuracy no matter what your shooting at (foam or fur), nerves affect people in different ways and for many reasons for some people shooting in front of others with turn them into jelly but most will fall apart when they feel the shot really matters to them. I agree shooting at your local tourney likely wont get your heart rate much excited but shooting in a tourney head to head for a world title is just as stressed as a hunting situation because at that particular moment the shot really matters to that person.
Very few can eliminate nerves totally and it's very difficult thing to practice for, my experience is that the best thing you can do is work towards the highest shooting standard you can achieve so you have enough self confidence for your subconscious to accept that you can make a good shot when it really matters to you.
Most missed shots are a conflict between the conscious mind thinking you can make the shot and subconsious mind thinking otherwise, get these two parts of the mind to agree with each other and it will go a LONG way to eliminating nerves. :)
Shoot straight and have a good Xmas holidays :)
-
zetabow, in no way did I mean to trash target archers. In fact I'm far more interested in 3D and indoor 300 than hunting.
I have a friend who has been nationally ranked in 3D for years who cannot hit a deer to save his life. All nerves. He says no 3D event does this to him.
I actually shoot better in competition than in practice. For some reason I bare down more and focus better when others are watching me. Unfortunately I do not possess world class ability so my best effort is not noteworthy within your circles.
For 300 indoors I average 255 with hunting tackle of 55 pounds. This being a longbow in my case. I average about the same in 3D outside on 30 targets with 300 being a possible. Rarely do I miss targets.
Still, hunting effects me much more (accuracy wise) and I believe it bothers others too. More so than they are willing to admit. Remember, nobody comes on a forum and tells of the deer they gut or leg shot. It just wouldn't be good form to admit such a thing.
Jack
PS I enjoy the 300 Round more than any other archery event. But this is a hunting forum and to admit such a thing is strictly taboo.
-
No problem Jack
No Bowhunting allowed where I live although I've hunted with a gun in the past and understand it's the pressure (responsibility) to make a humane kill that affects a lot of people.
I understand (tourney) pressure very well as I've competed in a few World\\European IFAA and Fita events.
I'm not that keen on Indoor, I score above average but much prefer to be out in the woods, even when it's -20c.
-
Here's how I determine if I'm ready to hunt: I aim for a stick that I've stuck in my bag target. That closely replicates picking a spot on an animal. I shoot from 10,15,20,25 (and sometimes 30) yds. I usually shoot only 10 shots per session. I write down any shots that are more than 4.5" away from my aiming spot (9" circle or "pie plate" size without shooting at a pie plate) and I write down the distance where I missed that shot. My shooting this year (just over 1500 shots) shows that when shooting from 25 yds, my percentage of hits inside a 9" circle were 92.5%, 20 yds was 96.5%, 15 yds. was 99%, 10 yds. was 100%. I like to have at least a 95% hit ratio so that would mean I need to keep my hunting shots to 20 yds. or less. Hope that makes sense. I know a lot of hunters who will take a hunting shot if it "feels right" and they tend to forget how many times they miss that same shot at a target. A more scientific shooting schedule like mine gives me more confidence in the field when I know that I will hit the vitals on a deer 19 out of 20 times from 20 yds. or less.
-
Not to kill joy, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here, but the Comanches believed three arrows in a door knob at 90 feet. That is my goal. I am not as good as I am going to be.
-
Interesting post Doug, next door to me in Finland nearly every tourney that they have the put two targets out to be shot with Broadheads, the Bowhunters record in a book how they shot the target, they publish this data to help advise Bowhunters on effective hunting distances.
The largest game they can Bowhunt is a small Deer, and have to Bowhunt Beaver with Bowfishing arrow with line attached.
-
Originally posted by atatarpm:
Not to kill joy, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here, but the Comanches believed three arrows in a door knob at 90 feet. That is my goal. I am not as good as I am going to be.
Do you really think a Comanache knew what a door knob was? That tribe was kaput by 1875 for the most part and probably no member ever saw any door knobs. Teepees and brush huts don't use door knobs. Old west buildings on the plains rarely used door knobs. They used wooden latches and cross bars made up on the spot of local wood.
It's a little thing of no importance but your Comanche door knob standard kinda made me chuckle.
-
Hmmmmm....lot of interesting things happening about here lately.
-
I believe there are good and bad ranges to shoot deer. If the hunter is undetected before the shot 0-20 yds is good even with trad equipment. 25-35 yds is marginal because if the deer hear the string they have time to move. 35 yds and beyond deer are not likley to hear the string or see you so depending on your ability, confidence level and situation its better than the 25-35 yd zone. All this is subjective and completely depends on the situation and archer. Im not promoting risky shots but have killed in very low light conditions at 57yds. For someone like rick welsch, byron fergeson, or rod jenkins they probably wouldent think twice at 50 yd shots, it depends on you. if your not confident dont do it. I have years of 3-D, field archery and indoor competition to draw experience from so i tend to lean to the longer shots if necessary. The last thing i want is to not be able to take a shot on a buck at a lifetime because hes 30 or 35 yds away. I will practice, train and prepare myself to take "ALMOST" any shot that presents itself you owe it to the deer to be the best you can be. I remember years ago one of the video guys saying that " the only shot you will never make is the one you dont take" so be ready.Remember practice,practice
-
Remember that even a slow by todays standards traditional bow shooting 150 FPS only takes about 1.5 seconds(accounting for deceleration of the arrow) to travel 50 yds. Im shooting one of randy morins "hy-breed" take down long bow 53#@27" that has no noticeable drop in arrow flight out to 22-25 yds its flat. So know your equipment
-
Originally posted by jerseyboy:
Im shooting one of randy morins "hy-breed" take down long bow 53#@27" that has no noticeable drop in arrow flight out to 22-25 yds its flat.
WOW! I gotta get me one of those. I have about 24" of arc I have to accomidate when picking a window through brush and branch at 20 yards. maybe 32" at 25 yards. And that's with a 125gr head. :eek:
-
My setup is 28" 2016 eastons with 125 grn woodsmans and three 4" parabolic or shield, makes no difference total arrow weight is 480 grns. they absolutely smoke at 15-20 yds. I was thinking of having randy make me a set of 60-62# @ 27 so i could shoot a little more arrow weight and not loose speed
-
If I cant shoot a pie plate at that distance 3 out of 4 times I will not shoot at an animal at that distance.
-
Most of this has been covered, but here is my 2 cents worth. Forget about being perfect, it aint gonna happen, the best will still miss. Try being a better Hunter than Shooter, think about that. I've been hunting for 46 years, still not a great shot, but am a pretty darned good hunter. Learn shot placemant, learn good stand placement, don't take anything but high percentage, ethical shots within your effective range. Study the animals you hunt year round not just a few weeks a year, put in the time to be a good Hunter, the shooting will take care of itself....RW
-
carbon Jack sent me a PM from another forum saying he's been banned here for causing offence, my comments about him trashing target shooters was clarified by Jack in his posts and a PM he sent me, I didn't read anything else that might have caused offence, just some straight talking about 3D\\hunting accuracy.
I thought USA was leading the rest of the world by proudly setting an example of free speach.
Jack made some good and interesting points seems a shame he's not here anymore.
-
Nothing offensive in this thread by Carbon Jack. Likely has a ring of truth to alot of what he stated. Maybe it was another thread or just forum trouble. Forum was down this am.