Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: LinemanARK on January 10, 2011, 07:32:00 PM
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How do you learn to shoot at longer distance's. I have a 55# recurve with 525gn 3555 GT arrows. I don't want to gap shoot I am new to trad so any help would be great.I can shoot 30yds now, but when I back up to 40 my arrow hitts the ground before it gets there. I shoot 3 under and anchor with my pointer finger, if you need more info please let me know. thanks Mike
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Shooting instinctive at longer distances is the same as short distances "focus on the smallest target you can see"
I shoot pop bottle caps past 40yds, maybe you could try that....
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Originally posted by rezeen6.5:
I am new to trad
That is the issue.....you have to shoot more at longer distances to get better....you are shooting 'short' because you haven't programed your brain for 40 yards and beyond since you are new.
It wont happen over night....and takes commitment and dedication to learn to shoot instinctive at longer distances.
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While Terry touched upon the central issue of learning to shoot any distance instinctively, perhaps you could use a bit more detail: To shoot any particular distance instinctively, your brain has to learn the arc of the arrow required at that distance. It can only do that with repetitive shooting at that distance, and that can take many hours, days, weeks,or even years. But over time, and with repetition, the brain learns (is programmed, in Terry's words)the arc necessary and will set your bow arm accordingly. One caveat, you have to have vision that is good enough to see the arc of the arrow and its impact point so that the brain can become programmed to that arc at that distance.
You might find G.Fred Asbell's video on "Instinctive Shooting" helpful to get you started on the right track.
Enjoy, and keep your shooting Fun! :jumper:
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Your already shooting better then me, dont rush it. Terry and Wapiti are spot on with their advice. Until you have shot at that distance, its tough for your brain to "guess" accurately the first few shots. I have read "become the arrow" and watched Byrons videos. He talks about visualising the arc of the arrow. When I shoot at 25yds, I raise my arm and it just feels right, then I draw the bow back focusing on the target the whole time. There is no doubt that if I could see better at that distance, I could shoot better. If you cant focus on the target, your not going to hit it.
Bowsan, bottle caps at 40yds, Im drooling.....
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Make sure your form is rock solid at close range, or distance, (over 30 yards), shooting will be trying at best. Then just listen to what the others have told you....don't expect to hit too many bottle caps at 40 yards though...that's quite a feat!! But it would make a great aimer if you can see it well....good luck
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Another thing I might add. In order to shoot those longer distances, you may want to try the walk back and forth method..
Where shooting 1 arrow at 20 then another at 35 and back to 30 and so on ,for example..
Keep changing distances to train your brain to adjust your bow hand to the different distances..
Like others have said it takes time, but it can be done...
And remember "always focus on the smallest target you can see" when shooting instinctive..
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I had a guy shooting here last year, every time he would back up, he would spray arrows all over my large target and punch holes in my garage. I demanded he give me his watch and one of his new arrows. I placed the arrow vertical to one side of center and hung his watch the other side of center, and said "wreck your own stuff, I dare you". Amazing how easy it was for him to hit that watch at 30 yards.
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I mean no offense to Mike or anyone but I would like to make a point about shooting at longer range. I only say this because Mike seems to be a newcomer to trad archery and I don't know his level of experience.
Shooting at inanimate targets at long range is fun but a trad bow is a short range weapon when used for hunting. I and everyone I know will not take a shot at a deer beyond 20 yards. I personally prefer to be closer. The chance of wounding the deer is just too high otherwise. As Mike has already learned, a shot that hits the target at 30 yards may hit nothing but dirt at 40. Hitting the dirt is far better than wounding a deer and having to try to track a poor to non-existant blood trail. Just thought I'd point that out. If you want to have a sobering experience take a laser range finder out to an unfamiliar area and try estimating distances to various objects before ranging them with the laser. We humans are't real good at guessing distances.
John
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Yes Mr. Hansen I would never shoot at a animal at anything over 20yds and do my best to get the animal closer if possible. Thanks for the input. No offence taken. Mike
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Somebody didn't agree or like my post as it's been removed, seems kinda impolite to do such a thing.
Suggesting to shoot Gap on some long shots to fast learn trajectory and then switch back to Instinct after the range has been programed in isn't offensive......or is it?
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Don't worry about the numbers (yardage), just get a "kicker" target like this -
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31b%2BRqmIF0L._SL160_.jpg)
Throw it around the yard and shoot it from different angles. When shooting instinctive, the numbers don't matter. You simply look at a target and "instinctively" aim. Knowing the trajectory of your arrows is simply learned through practice and hundreds of arrows put through the bow.
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Originally posted by AKmud:
Don't worry about the numbers (yardage), just get a "kicker" target like this -
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31b%2BRqmIF0L._SL160_.jpg)
Throw it around the yard and shoot it from different angles. When shooting instinctive, the numbers don't matter. You simply look at a target and "instinctively" aim. Knowing the trajectory of your arrows is simply learned through practice and hundreds of arrows put through the bow.
Well said!
For my practice I try to do this.
And up to ca 25 yards I`m not so occupied with the distance. Inside that area I feel pretty comfortable with my arrows fps etc.
And to get your brain "tuned in" you need to shoot a lot of arrows.
My technique was that I got comfortable from every distances inside my "killzone" and then I started to increase my distance with ca 10 yards at a time.
Finally I was out around 50 yards and could still hit the targets inside a decent group.
BUT I will never try to shoot at an animal at that distances without trying to make a recovery shot. (To many errors just waiting to happen.)
I do practice at longer distances just to get comfortable with "recovery shots" and hopefully I never get to use one of them.
The challenge when shooting 3 fingers under and instinctively is that at a certain distance my heavy arrows (650 gn +) will be so heavy that I loose sight of the target because I have to lift my bow high and from there and out I`m lost :D
Good luck with your training :archer:
Margly
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I agree very much. I had a Dan Quillion Patriot in 70# that was a sizzler . . . but something was missing. I never got to see the arrow (and I was flat overbowed at 70#). Not that I look - at least not consciously - but with the "slower" bows of 180 fps or so at least you get the flash of the fletches in transit as it occludes the spot in full focus/concentration. Your brain files that arc away for future reference.
I use a bright nock and fletch. Years ago I made up a batch of beautiful natural barred turkey with black nocks and they looked great. But when released they disappeared. I used 'em up and didn't do that again.
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Get a tennis ball and some judo points keep tossing the ball farther as you hit/come close to it more. Aim small > miss small!!! You brain will eventually get hardwired .........unless you keep switching bows/arrows.
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Originally posted by hvyhitter:
Get a tennis ball and some judo points keep tossing the ball farther as you hit/come close to it more. Aim small > miss small!!! You brain will eventually get hardwired .........unless you keep switching bows/arrows.
be careful if you use light arrows at close range! ask me how I know! :D
L.R. :cool:
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I dont have the ability to pick a spot much over 25 yards. I tend to look at the entire target unless something small like the bottle caps mentioned are there to concentrate my vision.
I do enoy shooting at targets at 40 yards but wouldn't try it in the woods
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Originally posted by jhansen:
I and everyone I know will not take a shot at a deer beyond 20 yards.
John [/QB]
Food for thought.......
Do you measure before you shoot?
How do you know for sure they are 20 Yards and closer?
Why the exact 20 yards?
If you are worried about movement .....do you think hunting in TX should be outlawed?
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Originally posted by rezeen6.5:
Yes Mr. Hansen I would never shoot at a animal at anything over 20yds Mike
More food for thought....
Any animal?
Why?
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Terry,
I'm not sure where you are going with "If you are worried about movement .....do you think hunting in TX should be outlawed?" Really scratching my head on that one. Was this an attack and if so, why? I went on my first deer hunt when I was 8 years old. I was carrying a .45 cal muzzleloader that my father built for me. I got a deer. In the years since I've only shot three deer with a centerfire rifle and two of those were with a Sharps single-shot. Everything else was with a muzzleloader until I discovered bowhunting. My score on deer with a bow stands at three. None of them ran more than 75 yards. I'm a little proud of that but the credit goes to the fact that I refuse to take "iffy" shots. I've watched more than one nice rack of horns walk by unmolested because I wasn't sure of the shot. Does that sound like someone who thinks hunting should be banned in Texas?
As for the rest;
I believe I was specific about stating "deer". I should have said "deer-sized or larger" but here in central Texas there isn't much that is larger unless it's domestic livestock so that is what was in my mind. Sure, I'll take a long shot at a rabbit or squirrel because any hit is likely to be disabling enough that I can finish the animal off quickly.
I normally hunt from a stand and yes I step off distances and put a rock or something that will be visible from the stand at circa the 20 yard mark. Do I use a tape measure? No, but I am close enough that if I pass on shots that aren't inside the markers I'm within my comfort zone. I do the same thing when I go high-tech and hunt with my flintlock except that the max range nowadays becomes about 70 yards. My eyes aren't good enough to see open sights and be sure of a clean kill at longer ranges anymore so I accept the limitations.
My intent was to help someone get started right. I didn't, and still don't, know his background but he was asking for advice. Many newcomers to trad bows come from a compound bow and think 40+ yard shots should be normal. I was pointing out that they aren't. Hunting in general is under attack from those who don't understand game management and bowhunting is especially vulnerable. After all, we shoot sharp sticks into Bambi.
If you would rather I keep my opinions to myself I will be glad to do so. Back when I first fell into archery I learned a ton on this forum. I'm trying to pay back the debt but I certainly don't want to offend anyone in my attempt to do so.
John
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The only way to get better at long distance is to practice at long distance. Just keep doing it and you will improve.
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Not sure why you felt attacked. Not my intent in any way. Lots of folks really seem touchy as of late, and I'm not sure why.
Just always wondered why folks pic the 'magic 20 yards' and how they determine that distance before they shoot. And, a 60 pound doe has a vital area is a 3rd the size of a 180# buck....so wondering my they both get the same 20 yard rule even thought the vitals are 3 times bigger on the buck.
If the doe takes a normal step on the shot she might move the shot out of the vitals....yet if the buck takes the same step he may not move the shot out. I'm talking normal steps from uninitiated sources.....on a calm animal. If either are on alert and move, you still have a bigger vital on the buck....so, should we make the doe's limit 15 yards instead?...or maybe cut it the same as the vitals by 2/3rds and make the doe's limit 6.66 yards?
As far as the TX comment, I figure you are scratching your head because you've never hunted deer there....or read anything about it here on Trad Gang. TX deer are notorious for moving out of the way of the arrow...depending on the distance, sometimes I don't even aim at them,...but 3 inches below them due to their movement after release.
I have a low recovery rate on GA deer myself....a 48 yard average at the moment. I don't take iffy shots either....and that recovery rate is coming from over a hundred deer. I certainly don't think it is unethical to shoot a deer at 23 yards if that's how far it ended up. I personally know when a hunt 'becomes a hunt'...and my recovery rate would be dismal if I was more worried about 19.5 yards or 20.75 yards instead of focusing on when the shot appears and my internal bell goes off.
My biggest buck weighted 260#s and I shot it at 32 yards. I had no clue it was that far till I walked to the spot of impact. Oh, it was definately 'a hunt'...and the 'bell' went off....but I had no clue he was that far, but he sure looked closer as he looked big as a house.
Don't even ask me about my antelope.....the western perspective threw me off really bad, but that too was certainly a hunt. Just glad no one tapped me on the shoulder before I shot and told me how far it was....if they would have, I never would have shot, and if I went against that, I surely would have missed. Again, no way did he look THAT far away...the bell went off, and he might as well have been at 12 yards. Somehow my instincts took over and ran the shot to perfection.
Like I said....food for thought. Nothing more, nothing less....and certainly no attack.
And certainly nothing wrong with someone learning to shoot instinctive out to 30 and 40 yards....that sure gives confidence for those normal hunting shots that are 20 yards and inside.
I don't think we should 'attack' folks for wanting to be better shots....the better shot you are at 40 yards, I guarantee you are going to be a better shot at real life hunting distances.
:campfire:
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I attack forks every night its why I am fat
I've killed about 150 deer in my life 45 years of hunting, average range probably about 12 yards
I did kill a nice Wisconsin buck at about 48 yards ( paced off) at the release he spun totally around and the arrow hit him in the opposite side I originally shot at, just luck on my part it hit him in a vital place.
That shot was with a 70lb quillian canebrake recurve drawn 29 1/2 inches which is a very very fast recurve.
Since then archery is a 20 yard ( approximately) game FOR ME I dont care what others do
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Just to add to the "20 yard" discussion...
The only time I know when I am shooting 20 yards is at the range because it's marked off.
I practice out to 30 yards or more but I always thought I would never shoot that far when hunting deer. But this fall a doe presented herself and I took the shot.
I marked off the distance and it was 40 paces which is around 33-35 yards. Shows what I know. She was a big doe, though and I was a little uphill from her in a lean-to. It was also fairly light out but overcast so no sun in my eyes. I am guessing that's why I didn't think twice about the shot.
My camera battery was dead so I used my cell to take some pics and before I was able to get a closeup with my bow for scale my cell battery died, too. But here she is as I walked up on her.
Good blood...
(http://www.njsportsman.com/images/misc/bigdoe2011a.jpg)
(http://www.njsportsman.com/images/misc/bigdoe2011b.jpg)
A blind man could follow this...
(http://www.njsportsman.com/images/misc/bigdoe2011c.jpg)
And here she is. It wasn't a passthru but she didn't go very far.
(http://www.njsportsman.com/images/misc/bigdoe2011d.jpg)
My point is, I really had no idea how far she was but it looked like a shot I could make. A shot I am not so confident in at the range to be honest. But that day I had no doubts, yet had she been smaller, uphill or had it been darker I may very well have passed on her.
I guess in summary, it's not about 20 yards but about how you and the shot feel at that moment.
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By all means, I set up for 20 yard shots and closer....some set ups deem 20 yards to get out of 'the line of site'...if you are a ground hunter that hunts many different terrains, you'll know what I mean. You can't always set up for 15 yard shots.
My average kill distance is 17 yards....with hardly any beyond on deer and hogs. Hogs are even tricker that deer...they move more often, and the vitals are arainged different...I like them inside 20 for sure...but don't really 'range find'...just kinda know.
I don't have a limit on squirrels or rabbits...I shoot bheads at them, and you are either going to kill them or miss them.
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Terry,
Thank you for the explanation. I'm still not sure how you got from "movement" to asking if I think hunting should be banned in Texas. But that's okay. I sometimes don't manage to be entirely clear in what I say either. As a NRA lifer and having been a professional gunsmith for many years, there are few who would ask that question of me. It took me by surprise and felt like an insult. Just for the record, Texas is the only place I've ever hunted and I'm sure you know that our whitetails are about the size of a really long-legged German Shepherd dog. They don't look all that big even at 20 yards. I long ago quit keeping count of how many I've shot with a muzzleloader. I got my first deer in 1959. I'm a meat hunter and couldn't care less about antlers. I usually wait for a spike or doe and let the heavy heads breed. I switched to a bow when my eyesight reached the point where I couldn't resolve the front sight clearly. I don't need sights on a bow.
Take care,
John
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I understand about the 20yd thing why is everything revolve around that magic number. Why isn't it 25 or 15 just about every bow shop I have ever been to has a 20yd range in it why ? Thats all I was asking about didnt mean to got everybody up set and mad. sorry Mike
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Hi Mike,
Your original question is a good one. It's fun to shoot longer distances, but I can't say I am good at it yet either so I am interested in the feedback.
I like try long distances in my yard or at the range. I think it helps me learn the arrow trajectory. I feel this subconscious information helps my shorter shooting.
Sometimes posts get on to various aspects of a question and they turn lively. You can learn the opinions of some fine people that way.
Keep the questions coming. All the discussion is just part of some topics.
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Shooting long distance at targets is a blast I do it a lot all summer. I didn't want anyone to think I was preaching what they should or should not do. Watching an arrow fly a long distance has fascinated me since I was a little kid.
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Mike,
Nobody is mad or upset. Terry and I had a disagreement over what amounts to symantics and he said something that nobody who knows me would have asked. At least 50% of my income as a gunsmith depended on hunters so I'm a pretty strong supporter of hunting.
Twenty yards doesn't necessarily mean exactly 20 yards but it is a handy number that just happens to represent a distance beyond which many of us don't feel confident of making a good hit on a large game animal.
I don't know you anymore than Terry knows me. What I do know is what I learned from people coming into my gunsmith shop. I always kept a few trad bows around and had a range set up out back so folks could give one a try. Newcomers who had always hunted with a rifle or even those who favored compound bows always seemed to think that 20 yards was an awfully short distance until they tried to hit a 3-D deer in the vitals at that distance using a bow with no sights. So if I came across as sounding authoritarian or like I was preaching, I apologize. Don't quit asking questions. There's a wealth of experience and talent available on this website. Not all of us will agree but that's a good thing.
John
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Originally posted by rezeen6.5:
I understand about the 20yd thing why is everything revolve around that magic number. Why isn't it 25 or 15 just about every bow shop I have ever been to has a 20yd range in it why ? Thats all I was asking about didnt mean to got everybody up set and mad. sorry Mike
I don't think anyone is mad.
Why 20 yards? Probably the same reason other predators don't attack until they are within their comfortable chase distance. It's the limit of the creature.
Generally speaking, I think the average shooter has good enough skills out to about 20 yards to make a good kill shot. As you go beyond that distance the flaws are magnified. That's why free-throws aren't made from center court or why the pitcher's mound isn't 80 feet from home plate.
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I will give a little background first, I have been shooting Trad. since 1957 with a big gap from 74 until a couple of years ago. Only now am I learning about archery mechanics and what I was able to do so well years ago without knowing about it.
The guys here would say, I tune the arrow so the bow shoots where I look, I couldn't figure out what this meant exactly, until a couple of days ago. I have been testing different arrow set ups for my LB and while they all seemed to shoot very well, one stood out. I found that with this arrow set up I would look only at the spot I wanted to hit ( which we are supposed to do ) and I would hammer it pretty much everytime. What I discovered also was that I was unknowingly looking at the tip of the arrow on occasion and then looking at the spot ( we do pick up bad habits ). For some reason when I do this I do hit very close to where I am looking but not spot on and not on a consistent bases. I also found that by doing this, I could vary my distance from a few yards to about 20 yards with no effect on accuracy ( I can only shoot up to 20 yds. in my back yard ) I am sure this would and should work out to whatever distances one could practice at, after all do you think a quarterback has time to measure the distance of a pass before throwing to a moving receiver ? Don't forget how many years we have all been throwing some kind of object to a receiver for, with hopefully good results, once pummeled with snow balls from someone else, I didn't stop to pace it off before a swift and brutal retaliation followed. I try to practice everyday and that is mostly on form and release, once that is going well distance is a minor factor, any restrictions put on one's own ability to shoot greater distances is all in ones own mind, however depending on a persons ability to control themselves when that big buck walks up it might be a good idea to limit the distance of shots.
Hope this helps.
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Mad????
Boy....I need to work on my typed 'inflection' skills :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Good post Kenneth....
Also, when folks that shoot instinctive and try to describe it in there own terms, as in throwing a ball, those that don't/can't shoot instinctive always want to dismiss that description and try to debunk it by comparing the accuracy of both.
When instinctive shooter use a term like throwing a ball, they are comparing the ACT of not the accuracy of. Each form of comparison has the same left brain/right brain involvement of subconscious running of the event, but they do not share the same level of accuracy.
I, as most instinctive shooters, would be much more accurate shooting an arrow from the pitcher's mound into a catchers mitt than throwing a ball into it...but both acts would be run by the subconscious....just one would be much more precise.
So, it is a good comparison of the act...but the accuracy of the bow an arrow would be far superior.
Not nocking other aiming methods or other folks that don't shoot instinctive at all. Everyone needs to shoot the best way for them....and their descriptions should be taken valid.
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I practice by moving to different distances after ever shot 1st shot 10yds 2nd shot 20yds 3rd shot 25yds and practice shooting quickly dont think to hard about it just let your arrows fly!
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While I cannot tell anyone at what their accurate hunting ranges should be, I can tell you why archery shops setup at 20 yards,that was the official PAA indoor distance. How much does an target arrow drop at 20 yards? Not much. Most of my deer were shot around 25 yards, ground hunter, how much do my arrows drop at that range? From that range and less I don't think about it. Now, when I am lobbing a broadhead at a pheasant that is out there a ways, I think about it hard, even when they are flying.
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I'm not going to add what others have suggested because it's good advise but I for the most part am a instinctive or split vision shooter out to 40 yards.
Let me explain:
From as short as 5 yards to around 35-ish yards I pretty much burn a hole in the spot I want to hit as I bring my bow arm up half draw then full draw to release never letting my eyes off of the spot, I say split vision because I'm sure that my perifial {sp} vision knows where the arrow is at during the whole time till it's in the target.
At 40 yards that is my point on distance with my 2 primary recurves, I can place the point onto the spot & I'm really close to where I want to hit, from there till 60 yards I'm a gap shooter because the distance is far enough that I see my arrow in the picture when I intend to shoot those distances.
Beyond 60 yards I'm still learnin because I'm well above the target & at draw I don't see the target.
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I think someone mentioned it earlier so please forgive me if this is repetitive but having a visual of what the arrow flight will look like at different ranges seems to really help me. Also trusting your bow arm and not stoping it when it wants to go to the right elevation.
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"The guys here would say, I tune the arrow so the bow shoots where I look"........and sometimes its the bow that just really doesnt fit the hand well. I can pretty much pick up any bow and shoot pretty well with it but there are some bows that just "fit" and "point" better and I start clipping nocks. I think fit makes more of a difference in instinctive shooting than gap,point on, or gunbarreling. I always caution anyone I introduce to trad to shoot as many bows as possible before laying out big cash on a bow. There are a lot of great bowyers out there but some bows just wont fit as well as others.....YMMV
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It's also interesting to note that often the bows that feel best in the hand undrawn may feel much different at full draw to your bow hand. I have a couple with fairly high grips that feel odd when you pick them up but when drawn the bow hand makes contact where it ought to.
Back to the 40 yard shots. I have a serious session where I fire at 10 to 30 yards (though I have been able to keep my shots at deer under 20 yards so far). Then I "play" and may try some much longer shots - out to 80 yards using a gap and arrow-point method. If I loft an arrow that lands within a few feet of a gallon milk jug at 80 yards I am happy. But I always end at 15 to 20 yards for a few shots. My bowhunting mentor told me to always end on a good shot. I think there is a lot to that as your brain catalogs the flight of the arrow whether you are conscious of it or not. Ending on a good shot, hopefully, leaves that one freshest in the mind.
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Good point on bow fit hvyhitter. I recently got a new schafer bow that is much easier for me to shoot instinctively than any other bow I have had so far. I had never really noticed the difference until this new bow.
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Indian which schafer do you have I think this is what I'm buying next. I wanted a B/W until I read all the sorrys about Mr. Paul and the man he was. His stories made me want to be a better hunter and a man. He must have been a great person to know. Mike
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I hope I'm not putting my foot in the wrong place again ? During the time I had been seduced by the dark side ( shooting a wheeler ) I had found a really neat old bow site that was a royal pain in the butt to site in. Once I got it sited in though I would shoot at the top of a coffee cup up to 60yds. and any place in between and break arrows.
Just wait, the reason for this blasphemous ranting is coming, so needless to say the bow and I were pretty accurate. My furthest shot was___________________________________wait for it___________________________________27yds. To add to this my furthest shot with anything is only 35 yds. Why because #1 respect for the animal and #2 it's way harder to get up close. That is why I practice to 20 yds. ( and that is how long my back yard is to ),
And also, because I have come back to the light side of the force !