Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: stalkin4elk on February 02, 2011, 09:15:00 PM
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Hate to admit, but I never did the blind bale thing and I do think it would help some form "issues".How much has it helped you and I appreciate tips, especially isolating aspects of form.Thanks.
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Do you mean shooting with eyes closed?
When I'm in a shooting funk I like to shoot at my bag target with my eyes shut. I stand about 5yd from the bag, pick a spot, draw, anchor, then close my eyes and release when all feels right. It gets me back to triggering my release based on "feel" rather than visual cue.
It's not important but pretty neat how close the arrow ends up to the spot, usually within 1".
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Rod Jenkins told me to go back to the blind bale to work out my inconsistencies. Post this on the shooting forum and you will probably get more responses.
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I shoot about a dozen arrows into the bale before I practice. Concentrating on grip, anchor,back-tension, release and follow through. It helps me.
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I normaly start my practice sessions with a few draw and holds ( 10 seconds)and let down, and then follow with a blind bale ( eyes closed) close bale session. It really helps me feel and concentrate on every aspect of the shot.I believe it helps build a more disciple shot, good luck, Jerry.
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If I shoot 3 arrows in a set when blind bale working I find them grouping. I don't aim them just shoot them in to the bale. When I also do bale work or aiming working with more then 1 arrow I seem to brake arrows.
I do find when bale working I feel it in a back more. This helps when I do what I call "The First Shot" or "The Cold Shot"...
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It's a regular part of my practice, and a must before a hunt. I blind bale shoot 8-10 arrows, even in the dark before an early morning hunt.
It keeps my form much more consistant.
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I agree with Billy. Never realized how much I was focusing only on the end product (hitting the target) rather than how you go about doing that in the first place. Good form will equate to good results. You can work all you want at hitting the target but if your mechanics arn't consistent its going to be hard to consistently hit the target.
I'm a huge believer and wish I would have started earlier.
By the way I don't ever really use a bale. I just shoot into the ground without concentrating on a target.
Anytime I go out and shoot and I'm having trouble, I go back to my form work.
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It shifts the concentration on "hitting the mark" to concentrating on what your body is doing through to completion of the shot. Very helpful, as is all that Rod shares with you! Thanks Rod, David
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One thing that is really helping me this shooting season (I call the off season shooting season as a handfull of us shoot weekly).
I dropped from 52# down to 47# and saw good results, but I have now dropped to 42# and my form is making serious improvements.
I think for regular shooting, most guys are over bowed. Including myself.
I shoot with some very experienced die hard trad guys and they shoot lighter weights for target practice and to keep good form and then go up in weight for the elk season.
My form is a work in progress, but I think it is progressing thanks to the old boys I shoot with.
Good luck,
Paul
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I do a lot of bale work, whether blind or open. Usually my practice opens with 10 arrows blind from about6' from target 1 arrow at a time, then move out to 5-8 yds and do open eyes for 10 arrows at 1 spot for all of them. I shoot 1 arrow only and I am quite pleased with the results when going to shot my last 10 arrows from distances of between 6-22 yards, usually all in the kill zone. This takes about 45 min. and I think a better overall shooter at 3D's, stumping, and hunting. Helps to really build your confidance.
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Years ago I had a friend (last one) and I knew him for 3 years (saw him almost every weekday) before I found out he was an archer. Not only was he an archer, he had taken 1st at the nationals and was in the top 3 for about 5 years. I asked him how he became so good. His answer was for every one arrow I shoot at 20 yards I shoot three with my eyes closed at 6 feet. "You can separate form from aiming, but you can't separate aiming from form."
Bowmania
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There's a difference between blind bale and blank bale. I learned the blank bale method from the man Rod Jenkins got it from, Len Cardinale. He does not advocate shooting with your eyes closed. Rather, use a large, blank target and pick a different spot for each shot. This way you focus on the form aspect you're working on, rather than trying to hit a bullseye. The point is to work consciously on form to ingrain it, and aiming is subconscious. Then you transition ("bridge") to where form is subconscious (but correct)and all the conscious focus is on aiming.
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I started shooting my recurve in Late September this year so I am by no means an authority, but I do blind/blank bale almost every day now. I believe I have had great benefits from both methods. I recently started filming myself and that helped even more. A tip...fill a burlap bag full of plastic grocery bags, seal it up whith 5 or 6 little zip-ties. Poke a large zip-tie through the corners and hang it in a doorway. I've only missed twice, but it's warmer in the house.
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Here's an answer I gave to a similar question many months ago:
The whole theory behind 'blind bale' practice is based on the generally accepted fact that the human mind can only really focus on one thing at a time. Therefore, Once you step up to that target, whether it's a paper spot, 3-D animal, or wild game, all your focus has to be on your intended impact point. You cannot divide your attention by running through your shot sequence, or thinking about your grip, anchor point, or back tension. Your form has to be imprinted on your muscle memory so that it happens without giving it a thought. That's what 'blind bale' practice is meant to do. Therefore, before you can practice on the blind bale, you have to know what each aspect of your form should feel like so that you can "Focus" on each aspect in turn while shooting 5 or 6 arrows. The best way I know of to get that basic 'good form' is by going to a good coach. While the modern shooting DVDs can be helpful, I don't think they can replace a one on one with a coach. Assuming you've been coached so that you know what each aspect of good form feels like, now you use the 'blind bale' practice to imprint them into your muscle memory.For example, your bow hand must be placed on the bow exactly the same with every shot, and it must be absolutely relaxed throughout the shot. Most shooters I've watched will tighten their grip with release, some ever so slightly, some go white knuckles. So, with your bow hand placement set, you set your hook, and draw with eyes open to be sure you're pointed at the bale, then close your eyes and focus all of your attention on your bow hand. You don't think about your anchor point, nor your back tension, nor your release. You just feel your bow hand and make sure there is absolutely no tension in it at all. When you're sure there's no tension there, you can let the release happen, but your focus must remain on your bow hand to insure that you don't flex any muscle in it in even the slightest way. I think you'll find that this will take some practice before you'll begin to be able to remain focused on your hand throughout the execution as well as keeping all the tension out of your hand throughout the release. Once you're satisfied that you're keeping all the tension out of your bow hand, you can move on to the next aspect of your form, perhaps anchor point, or......?? I would recommend that you shoot no more than 5 or 6 arrows at a time, before retrieving them. As you can see, to do the blind bale practice effectively, you have to know what constitutes "good form" so that you're imprinting the best form that fits your body structure. If you have any Q about anything I've mentioned, don't hesitate to email me or send a private msg. As you can see, a description of this type can get very lengthy.
Initially, to get through each aspect of your form is going to take some time, i.e., 30-60 minutes is not out of the question. As you progress, the time spent at the 'blind' bale can be reduced according to your needs.
I started using the blind bale method described above as soon as I'd learned it at an archery academy where I was coached by several top level archery instructors, including Rick McKinney and Tim Strickland. From that time forward, I started every shooting session with at least 30 minutes of blind bale work, and it helped me go from a beginner to a top level competitive shooter within a year. Though that was over 20 years ago, I still frequently use blind bale work whenever I realize I'm no longer in my back, or I'm flexing my bow hand.
So, as others have mentioned above, when the form starts to go south, for whatever reason, return to the blind bale practice promptly, before you've imprinted an undesirable habit into your form.
Good Luck, And remember to Keep the Fun in your shooting. :jumper:
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I like to start my day with about 20 blind shots from two yards. It tunes up the "feel" of my release. A big plus of blind bale work is it helped me learn to see the mystical "gap." I use the set arm style for these sessions and point the arrow at a place on the bale, then close my eyes, draw and release. I discovered (by hitting the wall a few times in my shop) that I always hit a foot or more above where I was pointing the arrow, but the group was always consistant. Over time, I automatically began to point the arrow the same way, but with my eyes open, on the target range. If this keeps up, I won't be able to say I'm an instinctive shooter anymore. Alex
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Use to do alot of blind bale shooting. Esp. with my eyes closed. Just trying to "feel the shot". During that time frame I was shooting the best I ever have. However, I quit for the last few years, and although I still shoot good, but not like I once did. I have started to go back to "the bale". I instantly can feel my poor form, but it is getting better, hopefully I can get back to my old form.
chris <><
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I was given a kids bow back in 1957 and for some reason I just took to it naturally. I became a real good instinctive shooter. Stopped shooting in 1974, life got in the way. Started shooting again in 1996 but that was with a wheeler, came back home a couple of years ago to Trad.
A friend and I went down to a local club to do some archery shooting, he shoots a wheeler. He wanted to know how I aim and shoot without a sight and release. I took him to one of the real big targets which happened to be a bale of hay, and proceeded to show him what blank bale shooting was, I took about twenty shots. I also told him that this was the first time I had ever done blank bale shooting.
Well we ended up going to see our families for the rest of the day, but I got antsy and decided to go in the back yard and shoot a little. Now please understand when one is lucky enough to shoot really good it doesn't mean they know anything about archery, and such was the case with me. as soon as I started shooting in the backyard I noticed a difference. I have a target bag but it's made for compounds and cross bows, sometimes my Trad arrows actually bounce off. I was able to put 5 consecutive arrows into the little circles on the back of the bag which I never shoot at from twenty yards, and I couldn't figure out why I was shooting all that good, until I remembered that I had shot blank bale that same day.
I am lucky enough to still shoot pretty good but that day was exceptional, as though it was back in the late 60's or early 70's. So those few shots that I took at the blank bale made all that difference really impressed me, it works plan and simple.
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Originally posted by NJWoodsman:
There's a difference between blind bale and blank bale. I learned the blank bale method from the man Rod Jenkins got it from, Len Cardinale. He does not advocate shooting with your eyes closed. Rather, use a large, blank target and pick a different spot for each shot. This way you focus on the form aspect you're working on, rather than trying to hit a bullseye. The point is to work consciously on form to ingrain it, and aiming is subconscious. Then you transition ("bridge") to where form is subconscious (but correct)and all the conscious focus is on aiming.
Yep - I learned it exactly the same way from the same man. So when I'm working on the bale I concentrate on the shot element I'm working on - grip, string finger placement, anchors, draw, conclusion, whatever. The spot on the bale is a just a "port of call" to use Len's terminology - whether you hit it or not just doesn't matter - the thing's only there to catch arrows. As NJWoodsman said, don't shoot at the same spot again until after you've pulled your arrows, because you ego will pull you into aiming instead of form work. When you can run your shot exactly the same way 30 or 40 times, then go to the bridge and work on aiming. And don't shoot the bale with your eyes closed - you'll never shoot that way at an animal, so what you feel that way is irrelevant to what you're trying to learn to do.
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I think blind bale is great for feeling the shot. My only problem with it is that the "feel" is not always the best for me. For example, I like to shoot with a string blurr. If I go just by feel and comfort, then the blurr maybe way out of line for me (positioning just 1/8" different through things off significantly) just because it is more comfortable, I have no way of telling because my eyes are closed throughout the shot sequence. If I continue to shoot in this manner exclusively for the practice session, then I maybe reinforcing bad habits (I have no way of telling).
Don't get me wrong though I believe it is a great tool for the arsenal, just not the only. Blank bale, pictures (of oneself), videos (of oneself) and mirrors can also be very effective tools for form for an individual and can provide instant feedback.
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One word of CAUTION...
If your going to do Rod's 30 day homework, make sure everything is where you want before you commit. I made the mistake of doing my 30 day blind bale religiously but my anchor wasn't where it needed to be. When I let myself aim I discovered that my arrow wasn't under my eye anymore and my left/right was off.
I had to start the 30 days all over to relearn my new anchor.
just my $.02
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Two things about the bale:
One - while you are developing your shot, to really do any good, you need to shoot the bale exclusively. The goal is to develop and ingrain your shot to the level that you trust it to run subconsciously while you immerse in aiming. Once you have the shot that you trust, you can shoot the bale for warm up and tune up. But while you are developing the habits of a good shot, you should not shoot at targets.
Second - bale shooting is useless and sometimes even harmful if you don't also run a disciplined bridge. The bridge is where you find out if you really do trust your shot to run subconsciously. Few archers finish their first round of bale shooting with a perfectly trusted shot. At some point in the bridge almost everyone finds something that they want to "supervise" with their conscious mind. This tells you what you need to go back to the bale to work on.
I've also had the good fortune to spend some time with Len. It made more positive difference in my shooting than anything else I've ever done.
Allen