Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: USN_Sam1385 on February 15, 2011, 03:50:00 PM
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Well, it is tough to admit but I am slightly overbowed.
Here's the story:
I own 2 bows. My first bow which I learned on, is 30# @ 28", and my 'real' and second bow is 55# @ 26.
With my draw length being 28" I am pulling about 61#'s on my 'real' bow.
Now, let me state that I did not choose that draw weight. I obtained the bow through a trade for my .270, and it was an excellent trade. If I had personally ordered a bow I would have gone with around 55# @ 28. However, most custom bow makers don't take rifles in lieu of payment.
So, I am 'stuck' with this bow for now and must make it work. And I mean stuck in the nicest way possible, as the bow is a Thunderhorn Coup Stick and is absolutely gorgeous.
I can shoot about 15-20 arrows properly before muscle fatigue sets in and my finger doesn't want to go that final inch to the corner of my mouth without quite a bit of strain and a bit of shaking. I find my groups tending to open up at that point, and I stop shooting and switch to the lighter bow. When I switch to the lighter bow I make sure to re-emphasize proper form and hold at my anchor for 10-15 seconds to try to help further train my body and build up the required muscles.
Any of you guys dealt with this situation before?
I know that I could probably hunt with this bow this coming fall, as I am consistently in the larger yellow inner circle of my FITA target... But I am dead set on building myself up to this bow so that I could do a solid hour or so session. Also, I don't want to hit the woods with the bow until I am COMPLETELY comfortable with it. Only fair to the deer.
tips, thoughts?
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Sam,
Shoot one arrow retrieve , Shoot one arrow retrieve etc
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Sam I would hate to see you develop any bad habits from trying to shoot a bow that's too heavy.
I know you can build up to it but I'd suggest you shoot a lighter weight and use some other method to build up to shooting your "real" bow.
I would be willing to loan you a lower poundage bow but one that's closer to your intended draw weight.
You could use it to build up your muscles and you can keep good form while doing it.
God bless,Mudd
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Mudd,
That is incredibly gracious. But I don't know that I'd be comfortable borrowing another man's bow.
Also, I wanted to clarify that when I say 'real' I don't mean that a lighter bow isn't 'real' by any means. I just meant that the cheap ($59) bow I purchased to learn on wasn't intended to be my permanent, or 'real' bow.
The shoot 1 retrieve method is what I started doing this week. Seems to force me to rest about 30 seconds between shots.
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Mudd,
I read that if you want to shoot a 60lb. bow you should shoot a 60lb. bow, and that shooting a 50lb. bow (even with a lot of reps) won't really get you there. Is this conventional wisdom or wrong?
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send that bow to chuck @ twotracks
or whip @ prarie traditions for a weight reduction
that would get you closer to 55@ 28
just a thought
if you havent entertained that route
kevin
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Originally posted by KHALVERSON:
send that bow to chuck @ twotracks
or whip @ prarie traditions for a weight reduction
that would get you closer to 55@ 28
just a thought
if you havent entertained that route
kevin
I think that would be an excellent idea.
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Wow that weight reduction is an incredible idea. I bet I could get the other guy's name off the bow at the same time.
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just shoot it more....20 to 30 arrows every other day for about a few weeks and you should be there.....doing pushups and pullups help too.......holding for 15 to 20 seconds???? why???/
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Sam I offered because of more reasons that I stated in my original offer.
I believe there's more of a chance of you developing bad habits or even worse you hurting yourself.
Next you're a fellow Missourian and lastly but not least by any means, you served your country and this is one way I can say "Thank you".
I only own one recurve and it's 50 @28. I have more longbows and I'm sure there's one that will feel comfortable for you.
You're welcome to use it while you get the weight taken off of yours.
God bless,Mudd
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One problem I see is the 55# bow is 2" beyond it's optimum weight on the force/draw curve and is probably stacking badly for you. You may be better off trading that bow for one 50#@28" for a smoother draw.
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@reddogge:
What a statement without even knowing the length and the F-D Curve of the bow...
Do you really think a 50#@28" bow with another(maybe worse) F-D curve would be more comfortable to pull to 30"? BS.
@USN-Sam1385:
The only problem I see is: Too quick a change in draw weight, from about 35#@30 for the learning bow to about 61#@30 for this real bow. You gave your reasons, and this is ok.
If weight reduction: Ask Duane Jessop from Thunderhorn first, if he can do it. He knows if it can be done or not. It depends a lot on the thickness of glass used for your particular bow.
Now, how long do you own the real bow and shoot it? And you have to train to be able to master this quick weight change. If you have a few weights, the P90X arm-shoulder routine is really a killer workout. Together with chest and back really good for archery . I have also a circular training device, which is no longer made, but is excellent to train archery muscles.
What would work also: Don't shoot the bow, but pull it to different draw length only. This helps the development of the necessary tendons etc.
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Good advice from all.
@Mudd: Once again thank you very much. I might take you up on that down the road. You are welcome for serving. Your tax dollars paid for me, and my subsequent college education. So thank YOU! ;-p
@hvy: I wasn't holding with the heavy bow. Rather, was holding that long with the really lightweight bow to try and build up those particular muscles. I like ur advice, and think that I will just keep shooting and build up to it. I have only been shooting the bow for 3-4 weeks at this point. I imagine 3 or 4 more months of shooting and the extra 6 lbs. will feel like nothing, or at least a lot better.
@reddog and teccum: Here is what Duane wrote about the Coup Stick in a write up:
" Smoothness. I like a bow that draws smooth. An ideal hunting bow should be short enough to handle easily in the brush and the tight spots that we find ourselves in so often, without sacrificing the smoothness generally attributed to a longer bow.
The true reverse-handle of the Coup Stick, combined with the limb geometry and construction, allows it to pull as smooth as the best recurve. But the bows are also fairly short. Even the 58" Coup Stick is smooth to 29"!
I think there's a great misconception that a longbow can't be short or it will be "stacky" and unforgiving. The Coup Stick blows that myth.
What length of bow is best for you? There's a lot of personal preference involved, but here are some guidelines. Most traditional archers don't have even a 28" draw length, and at 28", you're still not getting to the "stack point" of a 58" Coup Stick, let alone the 60" and 62"."
Also, just to add; I am in pretty good shape. 6'0, 170 lbs. don't go to the gym but do pushups, pullups and run. Just gonna hafta focus on these 'bow' muscles. Really does work muscles that you don't work with much anything else
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My best advice is to put it down and walk away, or trade it or whatever.
I've just come out of a bad experience trying to "work into" a bow I knew was too much for me but I fell in love with it at the shop becasue I shot it so well.
What I found is that even though I could group good with it, my form was not good, and it tore up my right shoulder real good.
Just cut bait, get the poundage lowered or trade it for something you can handle and work up in weight in smaller increments.
Good luck.
Brian
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Originally posted by Bow Bum:
My best advice is to put it down and walk away, or trade it or whatever.
I've just come out of a bad experience trying to "work into" a bow I knew was too much for me but I fell in love with it at the shop becasue I shot it so well.
What I found is that even though I could group good with it, my form was not good, and it tore up my right shoulder real good.
Just cut bait, get the poundage lowered or trade it for something you can handle and work up in weight in smaller increments.
Good luck.
Brian
Bow Bum,
I don't think that it is very much out of my range
pounds wise.
The 30 pound bow was not purchased because that was what I could draw, quite the contrary. I purchased the 30 lb. bow because it literally felt like nothing, and therefore was ideal to learn perfect form on.
I can maintain that same perfect form with the 60# bow, just not for much more than 15-20 shots. So maybe our situations are a bit different. Maybe not.
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sam, do yourself a big favor and try to make sure that you do not end up being overbowed. it sounds like you are a deer hunter. one thing I found after sitting in my tree stand for about 3 hours the first year I switched to trad gear (it was early december) was that my 50# bow felt like it was about 70# when the temperature dropped to the low 20's. I don't know how cold the season gets where you are but I would stress that you set your gear up for your most adverse conditions and be 100% comfortable with it at all times.
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If you are happy with your form/shots for 15-20 shots, then why not start in that range and just add one more shot each session. When your form starts to fail, go back to your 30 pound bow (you do not want to practice and reinforce bad form). You can also do SPT's to increase your strength or add some therabands to your 30 pound bow to increase the weight.
Be sure to warm up before shooting though especially since your bow maybe a little heavy. Also cool down and stretch after shooting to aid in recovery.
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Bow Bum,
I don't think that it is very much out of my range
pounds wise.
The 30 pound bow was not purchased because that was what I could draw, quite the contrary. I purchased the 30 lb. bow because it literally felt like nothing, and therefore was ideal to learn perfect form on.
I can maintain that same perfect form with the 60# bow, just not for much more than 15-20 shots. So maybe our situations are a bit different. Maybe not. [/qb][/QUOTE]
I admit. a bit of over reaction on my part. Sorry about that. I do feel strongly about being overbowed.
If you have the patience, or will power to put the bow down when you know your getting tired, and form is failing. Then you will slowly be able to shoot more shots in a session.
The key here is to know when your shooting session needs to be done, which is really the mistake I had made. I would keep shooting to try and figure out what I was doing wrong, when the thing I was doing wrong was continuing to shoot.
Sorry if I came off poorly :(
Best of luck to you!
Brian
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Talked to Duane @ Thunderhorn.
For $100 he is going to reduce the bow weight by 3-5 lbs., take the other guys name off the bow and replace it with mine, and take the 55#@26" and replace it with the new #@28".
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Hey Sam I am with you on the smoothness of some longbows. I have a 58" Cactus Cal 55 @ 28" it is silky smooth out to 29". I think getting the bow worked down is a great idea and provide a much more enjoyable shooting stick! Good luck in your endeavors and let us know how it turns out!
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I've not met a shooter yet that cant work his strength up to handle a specific draw weight. You've stated what is right for you and you are'nt too far off with what you have.Mudd's advice about not developing bad habits was good,but it does'nt mean giving up on what you have.For the next month enjoy shooting your light rig.At the same time at night when you settle down aim at the TV and hold for a few seconds with your heavy bow in a number of repititions.Muscles can rapidly develope and you might be suprised at the results!
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One thing I have learned as of late, I shoot 3 to five arrows per string at most. Not only does this keep the arrow damage to a minimum (busting knocks etc.) but it also makes me rest a bit. The heavier the weight the longer the rest periods between strings. Back in the day I could anchor a 65# bow all day long, Now... not so much. The heart is there and the muscles are as well. The joints however start screaming after a while. Now that I am getting a little older I have found it is more about pacing ones self to maintain my optimum performance. As you get older it becomes a big deal. One thing is for certain if the bow does not fit you, it may only compound or aggravate other problems. JMHO
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Originally posted by Possum Head:
I've not met a shooter yet that cant work his strength up to handle a specific draw weight. You've stated what is right for you and you are'nt too far off with what you have.Mudd's advice about not developing bad habits was good,but it does'nt mean giving up on what you have.For the next month enjoy shooting your light rig.At the same time at night when you settle down aim at the TV and hold for a few seconds with your heavy bow in a number of repititions.Muscles can rapidly develope and you might be suprised at the results!
I'm not supposed to shoot over 50#, according to my doctor; however, I've been working out a lot more since my shoulder injury, and am now shooting 69# comfortably. I'm really curious how heavy I can go and maintain form. That being said, I'll hunt mostly with the lighter weight bows because the cold 'adds' draw weight! :saywhat:
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Shoot and retrieve, shoot and retrieve etc is a good way to let the muscles relax but takes a lot of patince. Have Duane at thunderhorn reduce the weight somewhat, sounds like a great way to go about it.
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i agree with mjb and pj. shoot and retrieve-shoot and retrieve. i shoot 2 arrows and go get them-it also helps me to focus more, knowing i'm going for a walk after the 2 shots. make 'um count---.
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I shot a 40# pearson Cougar for about a year and then aquired a Sovereign longbow at 55#. The longbow actually shot better for me right off the get go because it has zero stack at my 29# draw. Somethings work better for some than others.
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I don't mean this in a smart way but, saying your a little overbowed is like a girl saying she is kinda pregnant. Either you are or your not. If the bow is too much weight for you, you will never be able to shoot it accurately, consistantly. You will form too many bad habits and may just give up the sport all together. Do yourself a huge favor and get a bow that you can handle, mabye even in the upper 40's, you will shoot it good, you can learn proper form and it will kill anything big enough to die. From someone who has been there done that.. RW
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Breath , work on pull ups!!!
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try some exercises. the main muscles you use to draw a bow are your bicep and lat, so curls and rows and such. do light weight/high repetition. that will increase your range time :)
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Glad you are getting a weight reduction. One thing I'd like to point out that no one mentioned is the adrenalin factor when hunting. My experience is when taking a shot at live game the adrenalin kicks in (for me at least) and the bow now feels 10# lighter, cold temperatures notwithstanding. In a lot of cases I couldn't remember pulling much weight back when shooting at game.
But the weight reduction makes good sense. Good luck with it.
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bucksbuouy, Can't let your advice pass unremarked. The biceps and lats are NOT the correct muscles to use for drawing a bow. The correct muscles are the anterior deltoid, the trapezius and the rhomboids. You really risk long term injury trying to use the muscles you recommend. See the threads about separated tendons and surgury that are around on these forums. NOT saying you can't shoot that way BUT....
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Originally posted by moebow:
bucksbuouy, Can't let your advice pass unremarked. The biceps and lats are NOT the correct muscles to use for drawing a bow. The correct muscles are the anterior deltoid, the trapezius and the rhomboids. You really risk long term injury trying to use the muscles you recommend. See the threads about separated tendons and surgury that are around on these forums. NOT saying you can't shoot that way BUT....
Anyone interested in keeping fit for archery when you can't shoot should look into a BowFit and the accompanying DVD with exercises.. it really does work.. I used it to rehab from 3 surgeries..
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Just to give everyone an update. I had the bow reduced to 55# @ 28", and also switched from split finger to 3 under. The 5 or 6 lbs. that he reduced it felt more like 10-15 lbs.
I also think that shooting 3 under feels about 5 lbs. lighter for me than shooting split finger, for whatever reason. It might be mental.
Anyhow, I am now able to hold the bow at a steady anchor and shoot upwards of an hour to an hour and a half before muscle fatigue starts setting in. And even when it starts setting in, it is very very mild. I think shooting every other day for the past 6 weeks or so has also made it much easier. The bow feels lighter every time that I shoot it, and I can now put about 10 out of every dozen arrows into the kill zone on a deer sized target consistently from approximately 18 yards.
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Let me also add, that I think what I was misinterpreting for not being able to draw back that last inch, due to a poundage issue; was actually target panic. I just didn't know what target panic was. That is why I had no trouble drawing the bow back in the house and aiming at nothing, but couldn't get it to quite all the way to the corner of my mouth when I was in front of the target. I may have gotten it reduced for nothing, but that is okay as 55# is more than adequate for my purposes.