Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: moebow on March 05, 2011, 05:11:00 PM
-
A while back, I posted three videos that I had made for some of my archery students. They seemed to be well received. They were the videos you may have seen on the "shooting video" on the shooter's forum.
Here is a video I just made for a refresher class for some of the unsung heroes of archery -- the NASP coaches. It has some techniques for the coaches to look for in their students and addresses some of the common shooting problems coaches encounter in their students.
I thought that I would post this here for anyone that is interested. Again, I DO NOT say that this is the way to do it, just offer it as a reference for those that are interested.
The Moebow\\'s Channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7N3gJePX4I)
-
I enjoyed your video. I hadn't given any thought to the wrist being bowed slightly out at the beginning of the draw, and then letting the weight of the draw straighten it out. I'll have to try that. Do you do anything to trigger your release, or does it just happen when it happens?
-
Thanks. I have no conscious thought when I release. It just seems to happen when I feel like I'm ready to shoot. When I'm instructing and demonstrating, I do find that my brain starts to interfere and my release isn't as good; I believe because I'm thinking about it and trying to explain and show.
My brain works best when it is shut down. :biglaugh:
-
Im going to give that bowed out wrist a try. Thanks for posting, I always enjoy your video's.
-
I was shooting in a big 3D competion today and a young lady who was in our group was holding the bow with one finger around and the other fingers open. Upon release she would close her fingers to grip the bow.
Now I do not like to try to change someones form in the middle of a competition, but in this case I had promised to help her today since she had a bet on with her husband about doing dishes.
My only point was that that introduces a whole bunch of variables, and by their nature, variables defeat consistency.
One of the fellows in our group has the craziest form I have ever seen. His bow hand technique is ridiculous combined with a very dead release. About the only thing he does right is shoot lights out that way. The last competition he entered he beat his next closest competitor by 100 points.
Keep those videos coming, top notch teaching tool.
DDave
-
Red tail, Thanks. When you try the wrist idea, remember to let the wrist be relaxed. It will come to that position naturally. Don't "force" it.
DDave, I too have to resist trying to help when I see something like that. You are right, a competition is the last place to try to correct something. For years, I've seen the "open hand" bow grip and the catching/grabbing reaction of the bow hand. The bow hand is the ONLY part of the body that can affect the shot both before and after the release.
Many people think that they are relaxed with their fingers sticking straight out. Try this experiment. Totally relax the fingers of your bow hand (they will naturally curl inwards). Now grab your bow forearm with your other hand and straighten your fingers. Can you feel the increasing tension in the tendons of your forearm? That is what I mean when I say "don't use any muscle or tension that is NOT required for the shot. Every little bit of tension that is not required will lead to increased "shaky-ness" and loss of control.
-
Great video, good information. Will give it a try, bet it will help me keep a arrow on the rest when I need too shoot reverse cant. Thanks moebow
-
Thanks moebow for that video. watched it last night and try it today.It has helped me in more ways then one.I ended up with better form all together because of watching you shoot.For example,the way i hold the bow,where i anchor,my back tension, all has made me shoot better today.I have a ways to go but i thought i should thank you at this time.So thanks for taking the time to help those who enjoy this sport......
-
Excellent video moebow and good tips too.
-
Thanks for the kind comments folks! As I've said many times in response to my (now) 4 videos. They are meant to make you think about what you do, how you do it and offer some suggestions.
Archery is no different than anything else, to improve, changes need to be made. Only you can determine what those changes should be. Just remember that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different/better results is still the definition of insanity. :archer2:
-
graet video im a new trad archer this video helped.
thanks sam
-
Good stuff Moebow.
Personally, I think of release as a reaction instead of an action. It is part of follow through. Follow through to me starts at expansion and ends two to three seconds after the arrow has left the bow. If I am consciously thinking of just the release I think of a further relaxation of the finger tips in the draw hand. The hands and arms have been already primed during a transfer phase (before expansion) in which tension is transfered to the back.
-
Great video....Im just starting to shoot a recurve again after about 20 yrs and Ive got alot of work to do, I know for sure Ive been shooting with tension in my drawing wrist....Im gonna work on this. Thanks.
-
Good work Moe!
-
Thank you Rod! That means a lot coming from one of the "Masters of the Bare Bow." :archer:
-
Great stuff Sir! Thanks very much for sharing. I've subscribed to your youtube videos in hopes that I won't miss any more that you decide to put out.
-
Thanks Derek! Any ideas? What would you folks like to see????
Arne
-
I'm fairly new to trad so I'm like a sponge...I'll soak up any shooting advice/info available! I really like and appreciate the slower, more deliberate method of instruction that you used in that video. :thumbsup:
It was very helpful, thanks again!
-
My wife and I both watched and learned so much from your video.Thanks for taking the time to help us.We will both work at this.Just the other day one of my widow bows found me needing to hook the string more to keep the arrow from falling off.I will pick it up and use your outward wrist moving inward as I draw.I believe this was just what I needed to learn.So glad I ckecked on the shooters forum or I woulkd have missed this great piece.Please let us know of any more tutorials you post.Thanks again!
-
Thanks for the video! The camera angle, and repetition, along with the explanations made it very instructive.
-
moebow
my folloiw through isnt as solid as yours seems to be.i heard you say if everything starts right then the follow through is a given. im shooting way better now as a result of your vidoes.i want that solid release you have. when i just relax my fingers it seems everything relaxes encluding bow arm.any drills you no of ,or ticks to ending with that nice solid follow through?thanks.......kyle
-
Kyle, That follow through is a direct result of using a Form Master. Learning to "resist the strap," as I tell my students, strengthens (increases tension) in your back at the moment of release. Shoot for a while with the form master, take it of and shoot while consciously "resisting the strap." Do not shoot at a target here, just use the butt to catch arrows.
Relaxing the fingers while increasing back tension takes a little practice but will pay off in a good follow through. It also settles down the bow arm.
Glad to see the kind comments from all you folks and happy that many of you see some value in the videos.
Arne
-
Great videos. I will show it to my kids in my after school club. Always helps to hear from someone else. The wrist and elbow roll to engage the back is a great way to explain it. I will incorporate it.
-
thanks moebow .i will be buying a form master. I have to give one a try.
-
Moebows videos are extremely helpful to see where you want to be. Fatzboys.....on the first page of the shooters forum is a thread to make your own formaster out of items you've got at the house.
-
Great video. My release cleaned up significantly by keeping the relaxed wrist. Now I have to practice that while I work on about a dozen other things I'm doing wrong! ;) Thanks
-
moebow..I've watch your vidoes and have to say it has help me with my Forum and help my shooting
So THANKS for all your info
-
hey moebow
built me a form master instead of buying one as suggested by "Green" and messed with it a little Let me ask you ,looking at the vidio again to night it looks like you have a slight push foreward with your bow hand on release. Is this a result of back tension or am i seeing something that not there and your just trying to not move bow arm at all. i got to tell you last night with the help of the moon light i started pushing more than i normally do with bow hand while at the same time trying just to relax fingers in draw hand. i was grouping well but it was all most like blind bale . i couldnt see where the arrows were going until i wall up to get them. Is this the start of a bad habit? should i try and just hold it still or push foreward on release. i want in the future to think about none of this and for things just to happen. Just look at a small spot draw,hold ,shoot,follow through ect. IM always looking for an advantage or better way of getting to this place ill call sanity. Because i think m going CRAZY....but it sure is fun.......kyle
-
Kyle, Sharp eyes :saywhat:
This, I always find difficult to explain in the written word but I'll try.
Once you start to get the feel of the drawing motion with the form master, you will find that pressing your bow shoulder toward the target during the expansion step (the part from anchor to follow through) will aid in stability and the actual release. This bow shoulder press will help in reducing unwanted movement of the bow hand at the shot.
It is important to note that I am saying "PRESS", not push. Do not push the bow by straightening your bow wrist or elbow. Think of it as pressing your bow shoulder towards the target.
This is a function of using your back muscles but perhaps in a slightly different way than is commonly explained. When you release using your rhomboid muscles on your drawing side the shoulder blade will snap in toward your spine. Pressing the bow shoulder toward the target will pull (slightly) your bow side shoulder blade away from the spine and toward the target. This is just the opposite of the old thought of "squeezing your shoulder blades together." This was a fairly lazy man's way of trying to explain back tension. But it causes a collision of shoulder blades,muscles and spine and really limits range of motion and limits that follow through motion that you see in the video.
Although I shot like this for a long time, I really credit my understanding of this to Rod Jenkins (shooter8 on this forum). As I say in responses to many of my videos, if you think about what you do and why you do it you will be better able to determine what really works for you and your style. If you don't think about things (form) and just mush along doing what you have always done, you may get good but the odds are that you will stagnate at a level of shooting that you aren't happy with.
I will suggest this though. Most shooters WILL get to the point that you are striving for: "Just look at a small spot draw,hold ,shoot,follow through ect." faster by learning good form in a controlled environment and then applying it to their specific archery interests than by just going out and "flinging arrows."
-
gotcha!.....thanks again....back to the front!
-
Great video MoeBow. The bow really seems to want to jump out of your hand!
My question is on the rotational draw. Can you elaborate on that a bit. I feel there is no way to do that except by turning the wrist to the left and almost temporarily turning the bow to 11 o'clock and then turning the bow back to face the target.
-
Targets, If done correctly, the bow will start out pointing slightly to the left ( for a right hander) as you come to anchor and rotate the elbow around the spine, the bow will move slightly to the right (in your hand, not by moving the wrist and requires a relaxed grip and forearm) lining up with the target. Keep your bow hand on target all the time. The bow's alignment will come from the draw not by you specifically turning it. If you re-watch the video I did called shooting a hill bow using the BEST system, I think you will be able to see that.
At the start of the draw, your string arm and elbow are out away from the body much farther than most Trad shooters normally do but it will really get you into the back muscles.
Yes! If you have relaxed EVERYTHING not needed for the shot, the bow "comes alive." It is then allowed to react as it needs too, not how you think it should or force it to.
Hope I've answered your question. If not, ask again.
-
Thank you for the helpful tips on drawing the bow with the relaxed wrist. The video was very helpful to me. Your commentary was very clear and easy to understand.
-
best advise I was ever given..... BEATH
-
thanks
-
thanks
-
Moebow, Thank you for the help.... I have been VERY frustrated with my shooting for years and really think the main problem is my release. Your instruction will give me something to work on tomorrow, relaxed wrist, move elbow around and just let fingers relax. Im 64 and running out of time, I need to get this right!!!
-
fmscan, I too am 64 and relate strongly to your time thoughts! If you have trouble with this or want more info, feel free to contact me. Try not to start with too heavy a bow. Good luck and have fun.
-
Moebow, (Arne) I apreciate your offer to contact you, however since others may be having the same issue it may be good to stay with conversation on the forum. Yesterday I spent a lot of time trying to get the release and felt if happen a few times out of 50 shots... when if happens it does feel good. I shot a 45# Leon Stewart hybrid and LOVE it, weight is not an issue, I spend a lot of time in the gym and I'm in good shape. I am a LEFTY. I have shot for yrs just using my arms and just started to work on using back tension (I've learned tons on this site in the last several months - wish I had found it yrs ago)
I know that I am too stiff in the hand and wrist..I've heard that guys say to just let the string release itself but I seem to get everything right and then its like pulling a trigger, release my fingers. My arrow go off target based on how bad the release is... I am frustrated and have to walk away at times. Mainly I cant seem to RELAX my fingers... I pull off. I know that letting the fingers just relax should be easy, but so far I have struggled. Will watch your video again today and work on it. When I see your smooth gentle release and follow thur, I understand and it looks wonderful. Just curious,when you shoot at a deer or elk do you stiffen up? THANK YOU for your service to our great sport. Frank Mosey (been called Moe yrs ago)
-
When I posted the "release tips" video, I had a couple clips showing a way to practice that "relaxing the fingers" release. I ended up not including them -- probably should have. I'll look and see if they are still on my computer and post them if they are. It may be a day or two.
In the meantime, try this as a practice. Take your strung bow and hook your fingers on the string. Now, pull the string back about an inch or two (NO FARTHER!). At this point you can practice relaxing the fingers and letting the string slip away. (DO NOT WORRY, THIS IS NOT A DRY FIRE if the string is only pulled an inch or two). If done by relaxing the fingers you will feel the string push your fingers out of the way and you will hear a pleasant twang and your hand will tend not to move. The fingers just "flop" out and back without hand movement. Be sure the string is in the first joints of your fingers. If the string is out on the pads you will have too much tension in your hand.
If you are trying to open your fingers to get off the string that twang will be more of a dull thud if there is any sound at all. You CANNOT open your fingers fast enough to clear the string! The string has to do it.
If you can practice this to get the feel of it, you are half way there. The other half is learning the feel of the full shot. That is keeping your back pulling at full draw and letting your fingers relax. This takes patience and practice to get the "choreography" right. DO NOT TRY TO HIT A TARGET when you are practicing this. Just use the target butt to catch the arrows. Shoot at 5 or 6 feet. If you can, doing this with your eyes closed will help you isolate and concentrate on the muscle groups involved.
As far as hunting or any "real" shooting, I don't think that I get stiff but have to admit that I try REALLY hard not to thing about form or technique. You have to practice this until it is automatic. Then when you are really trying to hit something you have to trust your form and let it happen. This is easier said than done and is the skill that really separates the great shooters from the rest of us. It all can be learned but many of us don't have or take the time to get it grooved in.
I understand your frustration. I always tell my students to separate archery into two parts. First part is practicing your from and technique. In this part DO NOT TRY TO HIT A TARGET!!!!!!! Just use the bales to catch arrows -- you do not care where they hit!!! We all have a built in tendency to want to hit something but this is truly counterproductive!! Trying to hit the bull's eye gets in the way of learning your form. The second part is hitting something and trusting your learned form.
I also tell my students that if they will trust what I'm teaching them, and if they will shoot for two months without a target then I'll have them hitting the X ring in three months. If they insist on shooting at a target, they MAY (or maybe not) be hitting the X ring in a year. You will definitely lower your frustration level by shooting blank bale while working on a form item. The frustration occurs when you are trying to do too many things at once.
-
Moebow,
Things were better today. I think the exercise of short draw and release is very good. In the past I always made progress if I closed my eyes and did not shoot at a target. I also watch your earlier film about form and LOVED the part about Form vs Equipment.
BIG thank you for your help and suggestions, I will be working on it and feel that I have a game plan now... but wish I lived in Minnesota cuz I would be one of your students. However glad I have this forum and a resource like you.
-
ttt
-
Thanks McDave for throwing this back up. Over the past few week's Arne has completely rebuilt my shooting form and with great results, but like so many of us I struggle with the release. Even with a poor release my shooting has improved tremendously. I've worked for a couple of weeks with the "relax the hand" thought and it has worked well....to a degree. His advice above on practicing with a 1-2" draw just might be the ticket. Thanks to both of you.
-
Thank you moebow!
Last night I was shooting and my ring finger started to hurt real bad (string hand) and I was shooting about 6 inches left of my target at 20 yards. After awhile my finger went numb but I still was shooting left. So then I went back to 40 yards and was about 2 foot left.
Then I thought of this thread. Went back up to 20 yards and relaxed my string hand. I six out of six shots were touching feathers! Its amazing what you can learn on this site! Thanks again!
-
I'm so glad that some of you are finding value in these videos! Thank you for the kind comments.
snake, I often tell my students that "letting the bow line things up rather than us trying to 'put' something in place with muscle makes for a smoother and more effective shot." The weight of the bow string will help your fingers reach proper alignment and give the proper finger pressure distribution IF the hand and wrist are as relaxed as possible. Many times, a sore finger or two is caused by us wanting to put something where we think we need it rather than letting the bow put it there.
-
"letting the bow line things up rather than us trying to 'put' something in place with muscle makes for a smoother and more effective shot."
For me this has been one of the results of the rotational draw....everything is relaxed from the start, and ends up in the right alignment at full draw....the only tension is in my back. Add to this that Arne's practicing a relaxed release with a 1-2" draw has taught me how to stop thinking about the release as I continue to pull...just think where you want your string hand to end up after the shot and the release becomes a "non-event". Now the whole shot from draw though anchor to final position feels relaxed and my accuracy is what it should be.
-
Thank You Mr. Moe
Would like to know your thoughts on a breathing sequence while drawing, anchoring and release. I have been told this is very important. I have also been told that during expansion (back tension) that elevation of the drawing elbow helps initiate release. Any thoughts and hope you did not cover this earlier.
Appreciate It!!!!!
-
Good question Larry. First the breathing.
There are many ways to incorporate breathing and some can get a little too complicated for me. What works well for me and most of my students is this.
When you are ready to draw (bow in a low position)relax (there's that word again) your chest and shoulders down and at the same time let your air out. Do not forcibly exhale, just let your air out to a comfortable level. Now, as you raise the bow to drawing position, your chest will raise and lift as your arms come up, let the air come back in. Again, you are not sucking in air to full lungs just letting it in. Finally as you draw, let the air about 1/2 out reaching that state at anchor. Now physiologically, you should have the shot off in less than 7 seconds. After 7 seconds, the oxygen levels in your brain will start to decrease and we should start over. This timing usually is not a problem for trad shooters but can be for compound shooters.
Now to the elbow. It should not be elevation of the elbow that affects release. Elbow elevation is a function of a correct rotational drawing technique. If you have that, think about the SLIGHT downward angle that the elbow travels form the start of draw to anchor. Think of that motion as a imaginary plane around your spine. At the release, the elbow should continue to move on that same plane and around towards your back. That is the long way of saying that it is not "elevation" but "rotation" towards your back that initiates release.
Hope this helps, if not ask again.
-
Helps a Lot Mr Moe. Thanks!! Good Thread by the way......
-
Crap, a high elbow is one of my problems too :( For me, everything feels like its in a perfect line East and West that way. If I try and get the elbow down, to where its in line north and South, then I'm a ways from coming around on the elbow it seems...
Thoughts Moebow??
-
Dan, Elbow should be in line as you say from east to west. Elbow above the arrow, north to south, is OK if it isn't too high. If you can take a picture at full draw, take the picture and draw a line from the center of pressure on your bow hand straight to the arrow nock. Extend that line back to the elbow and that line would be the ideal position of the elbow. This is called the Force Draw line (not to be confused with a bow's force draw curve) and elbow position on, slightly above or slightly below the line will be OK. No need to try to get it in line vertically with the arrow -- it should be slightly high just not extremely high.
-
Thats kind of what I thought... It hasn't kept me from being a 3rd to 5th place ringer in local 3D shoots.
Interesting your observation on starting at the pressure point of the bow hand when you draw a line. If thats the case, I'm just a touch high.
my big problem right now is 60# limbs are a burden for 150 arrow weekends. I can't wait to get my 52 pounders. I get 2 dozen BEAUTIFUL arrows off my heavy limbs, then halfway through the back 20 targets I get 5's and WTFs about every other arrow. My scorecard tells me all I need to know.
-
Thanks a bunch moebow, lucky for me, I read years ago that relaxing my string hand would pull the arrow to the bow, so that I have always done, but I have been shooting with an open fingered and stiff bow hand for years, and all I had to do was to hold my bow forarm with free hand after reading this thread and could feel the tension till I lightly closed my bowhand around my bow grip, I am sold, I shot my bow today and saw instant results, it is rare that one can make an improvement in shooting form that is so simple to understand once explained!
-
Moebow,
I just wanted to say thanks for posting those videos. I watched them a few times, and then used my homemade formaster and a light went on! Watching your explainations and then using this device really helped...and my bad habints were decades in the making. I could never get consistent alignment and struggled with a consitent anchor.
Now I am on the right track and things have been coming together quickly.
thanks again,
Greg
-
I too liked and found the video helpful
-
Moebow(Arne), When I die and go to the happy hunting gound, if we have need of an archery instructor, I will put a good word in with St. Peter for you. Shooting my bow is so much fun now and not an exercise in frustration. I can shoot so much better than I ever imagined. Arne/Formaster did it for me. Deer tremble when they hear my name....
-
Frank, Thank you, I'll take all the help with St Peter I can get! I suspect though that I would be a poor second to all the great talent that has "gone before."
-
Thanks Moebow,
Over the last two years i've learned alot from this site, most recently i've been reviewing your videos and taking them to heart. It's two years since my last post and i think it's about time i become more active here.
hookster