Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: MT Longbow on April 08, 2011, 06:36:00 PM
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Ok so when I draw with my tab(one over 2 under) I get some nerve pain in my ring finger at the tip...(I get deep hooks so its not that Im using the tip to pull with) So I tried using my pointer and middle finger, 2 on the string under the arrow and nock, on the tab.
Ring finger pinkie and thumb overlaped and curled, still get my good anchor point...feels great, strong and no perceived string torque.
Question is ....why would this be bad??
Thanks guys
patrick
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If it works for you, you're consistent,comfortable with it, it can't be bad.
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I have a friend who shoots two fingers,he does just fine.Go with it.
Leland
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I shoot 2 fingers under,and have now for about 4 years now.I love it no string pinch.
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any negatives from the pro's or instructors out there?
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MT, OK, since you ask. The National Training System (NTS/BEST) describes a good string hand hook as follows. I've really shortened what is a lengthy discussion. At pre-draw, the fingers pressures are 70-80% of the weight on the index finger. At full draw, the pressures change and are ABOUT 40% index finger, 50% middle finger and about 10% ring finger. The ring finger is mainly used to "...stabilize the hand on the string and resist unwanted twisting."
The reasoning is really that for shooting at 70 to 90 meters, EVERY little aid to totally consistent "everything" is necessary. So the ring finger is used to help assure a really consistent string hand angle.
As far as our kind of shooting goes, the ring finger may not be quite so important and as you can see above, most of the weight is on the index and middle fingers to start with. Can you shoot with just the two fingers? Absolutely! I'd suggest, though that any help at reducing stress where ever we can is a plus. Thus even that 10% weight on the ring finger will reduce stress on the other two fingers.
Do we as trad shooters really need this kind of exactness for our usual 20 yard shots? Probably not. I have seen, too, where many (not so exact) shooters actually introduce string twist with that ring finger. This is caused by way too much tension in the string forearm and wrist.
When I am coaching a student, this is something I REALLY try to get them to do -- use all three fingers.
I really suspect, that the shooters that really find that two fingers is working better for them is that that style is covering up other flaws that should be addressed such as too much tension on the drawing side. I'd describe this as a "work around" that may work but does not really address the problem.
Well, you asked.
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Mt If I may add.. What you've described is something that happens to quite a few archers, it's called being overbowed.
It may not be by much, but it's enough. Dropping down a few pounds in weight will help in the long run!
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Im practicing with my 40 lb@ @ 28 Whip to work specifically on form and draw 29.5 so Im shooting less than 45 lbs, Im 6.0 ft and 200 lbs, Ive been shooting Compound for many many years, 80 and 90 lbs on a Bowtech Samson for years and then dropped down to the standard 70 lbs,,,easy to pull back even the samson... Im not overbowed ( I understand the letoff) I can hold my full anchor point with great back tension and even on my 50 lb bows I can hold it a LONG time if needed with no creep or strain.(thats why I kept my bows to 50 #.) and I have tried 3 finger but so far it just feels best 2 under.
I will try shooting some more over under with 3 finger tab.
Thanks, I will take your advice and keep trying !
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The irritation you describe in your ring finger can be caused by a number of factors with the most common probably being too high of an elbow at full draw/release. Another option is what Dan Toelke taught me which is middle and ring finger under the nock with deep hooks, index finger relaxed and resting LIGHTLY along the top of the shaft. The pad (fingerprint)of your thumb should be snugly on the fingernail of your little finger and try to load 80% of the draw weight on your middle finger. Anchor your middle finger tip in the corner of your mouth preferably on a molar and your thumb knuckle should settle in behind the point of your jaw bone as a secondary anchor point. This provides an exceptionally clean release, easily proven on a chronograph and it might help to practice drawing your bow a bit in front of a mirror and make sure your forearm through to your elbow is in an extented line with the arrow, not lifted up.
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I was taught that too by Dan, I try and go back to that but its really bugs my ring finger and doesnt feel strong, when i take the top finger off the top of the arrow and deep hook with the pointer and middle finger it feels strong. I will take some vid to see if I am raising my elbow but I am concentrating on that too to keep it low and in line with the string....but the ring finger just wont cooperate. I know Dan knows what he is talking about for sure> I will keep trying
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Is it possible that your tab is not completely covering your ring finger? Check at full draw making sure that the tab is deep enough to cover and not expose the lower part of your ring finger to the string. Also, it helps me to begin "loading" the draw weight onto my middle finger when I put my draw hand on the string. My thumb is firmly on my "pinkie" fingernail, my index finger lightly on top of the shaft and I initiate the draw taking up tension on the string with my middle finger and my ring finger slightly behind my middle finger and loose. As you draw the string, it will certainly find your ring finger and it will load as well but I find it easier to get the large majority of the tension on my middle finger this way, remembering to maintain deep hooks as well.
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No , its covering it, I guess from rock climbing all those years I developed strength in my middle and pointer fingers above all the others.....I can still do 2 fingers on each arm on a door jamb pullups. thumb on top of pointer finger and both pointer and middle finger on the door sill. I dont know.. the Toelke style is using 2 fingers under and the pointer just lying on top like he showed me I dont see where there is any if much difference with just 2 under...if the top is just lying there. Know what I mean?
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Patrick, At the risk of sounding like a smartass, if you ever want to trade middle fingers, I'm game. I am doing some form shooting now with emphasis on loading up the draw on mine. I wish it were naturally stronger than my ring finger. If my ring finger gets tender I know my elbow got up on me or I have not maintained really deep hooks through the actual release but let my fingers slightly roll open in the fraction of a second before the loose. The only difference I can think of between having your index finger as opposed to your middle finger under the nock would be a very slight change in the angle of your hand whereas your hand and forearm are more in a straight line with your middle finger under. I have no idea if this could be problematic and would think not but Dan would be someone good to run it by.
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Dang I'm having the same problem with my ring finger. Its absolutly starts killing me and stays sore to the touch for a couple of days. Got to the point where I started putting a band aid under my finger gloveand that helped a bunch I just figured it was my sissy fingers. Never thought it could be a form problem. Thanks for the tips everybody and the tip of my sissy finger thanks you too lolol
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Thanks guys, changed tab material to my Grandpas old cordovan leather tab still runnning hard from the 1940's, shot standard 3 today with full hooks on all 3, I dont know If I am getting as clean a release with all 3 engaged but spreading the load out to all 3 fingers felt better ,shot about 60 arrows and wasnt too bad. the anchor is different and harder for me to settle in as my hand is higher on my face and didnt seem as consistant as 2 under...I will keep working on it. Thanks guys
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Any thing that you can do consistantly will work
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Check the lower side of your ring finger. Do you see a callous forming, or any sign of rough or red skin after shooting? If so, the bottom of the tab is not fully covering your ringer finger. Sometimes, even with a deep hook, the ring finger can separate a bit from the middle finger leaving the bottom edge exposed to the serving on the string. After 'strumming' the string while releasing, you can really irritate the nerves near the tip and bottom edge of the ring finger.
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George, its not touching the string, I just ordered some cordovan tabs from Alaska Bowhunting Supply (thicker than my Grandpa's cordovan Marshall tab)
So I will give those a try, I also want to try 3 under
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well I found my thicker Cordovan tab from Alaska that I ordered a while back, It was too big so I trimmed it way down, hadnt shot in 5 days and I tried 1over 2 under and ring finger hurt right away...SO I went to 1 over 1 under, not 2 under like before...really helped with my anchor behind my jaw. I get a really smooth release....I like it, Im using the Tab just 2 fingers, I really focus on a nice straight draw and relaxing the back of the hand with deep hooks over centered at initial pull and rotating nicely into position as the weight comes on. no problem holding my whip at full draw for as long as needed.
anyone else shooting 1 over 1 under?
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Thanks george vernon.
Just like you describe, I have a nice brown callous on my ring finger close to the tip and it feels like the circulation is cut off after a long shooting session. I didn't think it was form from what was said and isn't "finger pinch" as I'm shooting a 60" longbow at 27" draw. It looks like my ring finger is covered by the tab, but it is close, so it must be just slipping off at release.
Not going to 2 finger yet Mt Longbow, but a good thread.