Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: critter69 on April 17, 2011, 02:47:00 PM
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I bought a morrison shawnee from a gentalman on here about 9 months ago. Got the bow, I thought I shot it great, noraml group size 7 inches. Sent it to bob morrison had snake skins put on it. Shoot it about every day.And have not been able to consistantly shoot under a 14 inch group in the last 4 months. I feel far from confident trying to hunt with it. Just wondering truth fully what group size is average?(20 yards and be honest :help: )I think iam going to sell the bow but I cant post on here as I dont think I have 100 posts. So if any one knows where I can list it I would appreciate it. Iam just very frustrated,and love the whole traditional bow thing(love the bows) but If I cant hunt with it I dont want it.
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First thing you should look at is the poundage. Are you strugling to hold at full draw for ten seconds. I have had several bows that I could not shoot that great until I got my Kota. It is the lowest poundage bow 51# @ 29" and is the longest at 62". In order to be accurate you have to be able to have good form and pull with back tention, have a good release and a steady bow arm with a push/pull pressure. I can put three arrows into a 3" circle on a good day but can always shoot in a 6" circle from my knees, standing ect.
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once i get dialed in i usually can stay with in about 8" or 9". I was having a lot of trouble shooting a few years ago. Each shot was wild and if i did hit where i was aiming it was pure luck. I did a few things to fix my shooting:
1. I moved up to with in 10 yards of my target. By getting close i gained confidence in my shots
2. I had a 25# bow that my dad had bought for my sister when we were kids and i started to practice with it. The light weight made it very easy to shoot a lot of arrows, and also to practice my form. Once I got my form down i moved up to my regular hunting bows.
3. i tried to block out the distance i was shooting and just focus on good form and picking a spot.
4. whenever practice began to feel like work or like it wasn't fun i quit.
I'm not a sharpshooter by any means and I still have a lot of work to do but when all is said and done I can't think of a better way to spend an hour than to fire a few arrows into the foam.
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I have to agree with poundage, the closer I am to 50 pounds at my draw length the better I shoot, to be honest beyond 55 pounds my groups will start to spread out. An honest figure to me would be about like Sean, I do shoot better some days around 6", but an average would be at that 8 to 9", not to say I am not always striving to get better. I also agree, until you get a consistant form, move up to 10 yards, it seems to close at first but you will soon learn to enjoy it, after all, most of my shots at game have been in that 1 to 15 yard range anyway.
After the shot, counting a few seconds to make sure I don't drop my shooting arm and in fact bringing my bow arm back into focus just like before the shot has really helped me be more consistant. I think dropping ones bow arm a bit after the shot is a big reason for irratic arrows.
Also try shooting 1 arrow at a time, then go get the arrow, go back and take your next shot, that gives you time to settle down and think about your form between shots. Get a routine down and do the same thing on each and every shot, how you bring your bow up, how you draw your bow, your anchor, your realease and follow through, do the same thing on each and every shot. When shooting groups as opposed to shooting one arrow at a time, I just seem to rush things no matter how much I try to slow things down.
Don't give up on traditional archery, just keep trying things until you find what works for you, and enjoy each shot, work on your routine, watch and enjoy the arrow flight in your perephial vision and don't worry as much about your groups as picking your spot and concentrating on form and if you are shooting a poundage you can handle it will come together for you.
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For some reason I do worse on the open range targets than on the 3d ones (we have lanes cut out of the brush and vegetation down at my club) which is probably caused my letting my mind wander a bit.
It does help to pace off 10 yards from the 3d's then shoot from there to build confidence then pace off more in 5-10 yard increments.
For me at least :)
Although today I was hitting them dead from 20 first shot - would have stepped off more but had my daughter and father in law with me and didn't want to hold them off too much with a full on practice session ;)
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At 20 yards I can maintain about 3-4 inches pretty consistently. If you can't do that it might be a disservice to yourself to blame the shooting. Look very closely at your arrow choice, and tuning of the bow and arrow.
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I have a Morrison Shawnee that is the main bow I've been shooting for the last few months. It is 45#, with 64" longbow limbs. Most of the time, I can get all my arrows in a 6" group at 20 yards. Some of the time, I get them in a 3" group.
It has been a little hard for me to learn to shoot this bow, as I've mostly shot recurves in the past. The Shawnee has a grip that is close to a recurve grip, but not exactly a recurve grip. It is lighter weight (the actual weight of the bow, not draw weight) than my recurves. I shoot wood arrows with it, because I want to be able to enter longbow competitions that require wood arrows. So for these reasons, I haven't been as accurate with this bow as I could be with a recurve. I may never be able to shoot it as well as I can a heavier recurve with carbon arrows, but for that reason, it is a challenge to me to see how well I can do with it.
We've all had bows we can't shoot as well as other bows, and some of those we end up selling. But my Morrison Shawnee is a fine bow, and in my case, I think it's the nut behind the wheel rather than the bow, so I think I'll keep shooting it and see how good I can get with it.
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It is always that first arrow that counts , how are your first several shots of the day.Also agree with the light bow and close shooting.As for my 20yd group havent done it in a while I seldom shoot at the same target at the same distance , I have a dozen 3Ds in my back yard all in different locations and never shoot the same shot.
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I can consistently keep my arrows within the 5/4 score zone on a 300 indoor face (around 260's in tourney, higher in practice) I personally find it much harder than shooting 1 to 3 arrows at 20y outside.
Whoever invented this 300 round is evil :scared: , because shooting 5 arrows ends at 20y takes some serious focus but it does make you a more consistent\\disciplined shot by the time the warm weather arrives and you're back outside.
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i really struggle with targets- i seem to get "zoned out" and my "pick a spot" goes wild.
i do way better stump shooting- each target is different, the range is unknown, and i can safely get all those shots within about 5 to 6 " nowdays.and most within a couple of inches of my spot.
first shots are what count- thats all you have when you are hunting!!
i changed and adopted rick welches techniques, and am going to be attending one of his clinics this summer.took a while to get it figured out- but boy!!! what a difference it has made for me- a better style of hunting shooting for me.
i was snap shooting before.
g'luck.
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X2 on what fujimo said. I've gotten away from the round targets and done more stump shooting and realized... Hey I'm not as bad as I thought!
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If i were to shoot only from from 20 yards at the same target with a back quiver full arrows, I find that I can put the first groups in pretty tight. then I start to get sloppy and have concentrate to keep four out of six tight, two always seem to be out side of that 6". yesterday I went out with a punky soft ball and blunts, with that out to 25 yards i could hit it most of the time with the first shot. I never shot more than two a round at the soft ball. Seems like i go stale just pounding a target. Maybe that was Hill's trick. He was always trying to hit something impossible when he was not working on form, instead of just going through the motions of target pounding. Once that form is down it is time to see what you can hit, always just working on form orthodoxy can get one trapped into forgetting how to refine the accuracy aspects of shooting. On the same note adjusting your form so that you become just a tight group shooter may not be the best rhythm for hunting success. I can learn more about what to expect when I am hunting by going out shooting at a tossed ball and stump shooting than I can pounding my target. Stump shooting pays big rewards if you get both fussy and honest with yourself. Stump shooting and small game shooting I am more accurate if I only have a slight hesitation at anchor, if I am trying to fit six arrows into a tight pile on a target face I need to hold a bit longer because my pointing ability slips because of the boring repetition.
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I concur with what fujimo said.
I've always done better shooting at stumps, discarded cans,etc.
Shooting for tight groups at 20 yards has very little application in hunting.
When I work on form, I get really close, say 3 yards from a block target.
Most of my hunting practice is at 10-15 yards which is the distance I get most of my shots on game.
I practice for bowhunting and this is what works for me.
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We probably all think that, for a bowhunter, the shot that counts is the first shot. We don't often get a second shot. Because of that, I really don't shoot groups any more. Most of my practice is first-shot shooting. Go outside and take a shot. I am fairly satisfied when I shoot within 2 inches or so of the point of aim at about 20 yards. That would translate to a 4 to 6 inch group. I nearly always go pull the single arrow before I shoot another arrow. I have noticed that practicing this way has made me a better shot, probably because I don't have to concentrate for very long to make a single shot.
That is what works for me. Your results may vary.
Joe
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I know this wasn't my post, but I also have the same problem. At 10-13 yards I'm dead on but when I go out past 15 I get less and less consistent. Even worse at 20 yards. . I'll be trying all the tips in this post. We'll see if I get better.
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Last year I shot 1500 shots that I kept track of. From 25 yds. I hit a 9" circle 92.4% of the time, 20 yds. was 96.5%, 15 yds. was 99%, and 10 yds. was 100%. My personal goal for hunting is better than 95% so I needed to keep my shots to 20 yds or less. I shot this elk at 12 yds. so it worked out that I was within that distance. I hope to get better and extend my range a bit-maybe to 25 yds. this year.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/grndhntr/CowHeroShot.jpg)
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Doug, that's a great philosophy! I can also relate to the problem of high poundage. I have a 60# @ 27" Custom Bighorn that I love, but I just started getting serious this year. So I went on the bay and got a 45# Bear Grizzly and now I'm having fun, building my strength, obtaining good form!
My own opinion of the grouping at 20yds, yes and no. Sometimes I can just about split my arrow or hit within 3" at 20yds, then an arrow will go 1 or 2 feet left or right.
What I figured out today(after much studying Masters of Barebow), that I really have a lot of blind bail work to do on each aspect of the shot. There's many things going on in the mind right now, such as drawing, body position, anchor, bow tilt, moving my draw elbow back with back tension(expansion per Rod Jenkins), and last but not least...Concentrate on a super small spot that I intend to hit.
So, I also learned, I just need to relax and Shoot, so I did. I was shooting big 3' wide bales today and every so often I hit right were I was aiming. Well, standing from the side(45deg) I decided to shoot the side of the target, which is only 1' wide between 2 4x4 post. 1st shot was right in the middle. 2nd shot was right on the post and cracked my new PO Cedar in half.
Right away, I realized what happened, I wasn't focused, I let the arrow before get me out of the zone. From then on, all I did was shoot between the post 1' apart and this increased my attention span 10 fold, I was so focused cause I wanted the arrow to land right between the post..."become the arrow" kind of attitude.
Try putting in a days work on building some wood arrows, then go shoot and have one break...it'll make you cringe!
With respect, I recommend shooting between trees, or at least small limbs to tighten focus down and challenge yourself to really focus and "become the arrow".
Good luck!
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Think this is were the focus and discipline comes into play with the 300 round, it was shot by both target archers and hunters alike.
When I shoot any arrow I ALWAYS approach it as my one and only shot, if your just pounding the target for groups then you will get fliers because focus will drift
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Originally posted by zetabow:
Think this is were the focus and discipline comes into play with the 300 round, it was shot by both target archers and hunters alike.
When I shoot any arrow I ALWAYS approach it as my one and only shot, if your just pounding the target for groups then you will get fliers because focus will drift
Especially when your first four arrows are in the "5" and you have one more to go on the end! :biglaugh:
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I guess I usually average around 4 to 5" groups at 20yds. I've had days where my arrows are grouped up like a baseball touching.
I've found that I'm more of a snap shooter. I don't hold at my anchor point for more than a second.
I've also found I'm more of an "instinctagap" shooter too. Before I even draw my bow, I look and see where my point of the arrow is in relation to what I want to hit. I've gotten this mental record of where the point needs to be at 20yds and out to longer ranges.
Then I draw and when my fingers hit the corner of my my mouth, I let it go. I'm not looking at my arrow anymore when I start to draw. I'm staring a hole through whatever I want to hit.
At any range closer than 20yds, I just shoot. Don't even bother looking at the tip of my arrow. I've found at 20yds and up, I switch over to gap shooting to stay accurate on the target.
I'm very new to trad archery, but this is the system I've put together for me.
I've also found, that the biggest factor to me in being accurate or not accurate is my release. I know the moment I let go of the string if it's a good or bad shot by how my fingers roll off the string.
I really work hard on my release. To me it's the biggest factor that affects how I shoot.
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x2 on the release bucky- thats my biggest weakness.
calgary chef taught me an interresting philosophy, just keep stepping back until you find your maximum distance that you remain within your personal grouping size with consistant shooting, and that is your maximum hunting range- to many people get hung up on the distance thing- which is ok if you are a competition target shooter- and make no mistake- i really respect those people- super concentration each shot!!
in the same vein as what Doug was saying.
calgary chef also showed me that beyond his max, instinct range- he had a point of aim range- and he would ascertain that for his bow- say 30 yds- then for those long shots he would try and judge the distance- then still using the point of aim system-AND NOT CHANGING IT!! he would just aim high or low on the target- kinda like fixed sights on a rifle.
i saw him get a kudu bull at 35 yards- which i paced out!!
although that was probably lucky, and if he used his semi auto shotgun more he'd prolly get more meat on his table;)
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I would suspect form, bow weight and bow/arrow tune are all probably some of the issues you are having with consistency, but I can tell you that you will shoot your best when your arrows are matched and tuned to the bow and flying as well as they can. It makes for a much more forgiving setup and your accuracy and consistency will increase. To get it even better you will need to work on your form and consistency as well.
For all practical purposes accuracy at 20yds should be very good from most good shooters, in fact when I am shooting good I worry about busting nocks at 20yds although I will throw a flyer out every now and then, this type of accuracy at a consistent range should be expected not just count on luck and most should work to attain better accuracy!
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Originally posted by SAM E. STEPHENS:
It is always that first arrow that counts , how are your first several shots of the day.Also agree with the light bow and close shooting.As for my 20yd group havent done it in a while I seldom shoot at the same target at the same distance , I have a dozen 3Ds in my back yard all in different locations and never shoot the same shot.
Good point of the first arrow question. I seem to shot well on my first, then downhill from there - snap shoot, short draw, etc...
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Two things, first, everyone is a better shot on the internet. Second, snakeskin induces serious inaccuracy due to harmonic dampening of the limb's resonant frequency.
Seriously, don't measure yourself against how well anyone else shoots. It's not the bow, unless you're overbowed or have the wrong arrows. Something has changed in your form. Get closer, forget about groups and targets.
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x2 nj.
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Originally posted by zetabow:
Think this is were the focus and discipline comes into play with the 300 round, it was shot by both target archers and hunters alike.
When I shoot any arrow I ALWAYS approach it as my one and only shot, if your just pounding the target for groups then you will get fliers because focus will drift
I think it was Terry Ragsdale who said many years ago that he didn't approach a 300 round as a 60-arrow tournament, but 60 1-arrow tournaments. It seems simple, almost cliche, but really makes a lot of sense.
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NJwoodsman I was not trying to say it was the snake skins that caused me to shoot worse. I just wish I would have shot it alot more before I decided to have them skins put on.I would have ordered a new set of limbs had them skined and probably sold these. The bow is probably a little heavy but after taking some advice from some of you guys I deafantly have been shooting better. And yes to one of the post I can hold at full draw for ten seconds with out to much problem(had my son time me). But as some one else said I have found that when I get to full draw I do better to hold it just a second or less, has also seemed to help.I find I dont have time to second guess myself.Love shooting the bow, just always looking to shoot better.And maybe trying to convince my self I need another bow to compare to(excuse to buy a bow from big jim if work ever picks up)Thanks to all those that had GOOD advice.
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I like woodsman comment about everyody being a better shot on the internet. LOL that's a good one, but how true it is. I guess it depends on how many beers I have while I'm shooting.
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Originally posted by Dave Coalter:
I like woodsman comment about everyody being a better shot on the internet. LOL that's a good one, but how true it is. I guess it depends on how many beers I have while I'm shooting.
If I believed some of the stuff I read on other forums, the way they write, they never missed a shot. Seems I'm just an average shot and glad I never meet any of these guys at tourneys :archer2:
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I too think that shooting a bow you are comfortable with is the key and of coarse practice. I began to improve my accuracy when I drooped my bow weight and also began using my back muscles as for years I used my arm w/o adding the back tension. As I read more here on TG I kept picking up on pointers from those who had been taught properly to shoot. Try to hang in there Critter69. Proper arrow spine and point weight to your bow is super important. I hope you will keep trying. I have had many times through the years when I would get in a funk, looking back I was messing with multiple bows and weights. I now shoot a 46# 58" Griffin and I am shooting more accurate concentrating on just shooting it. I do believe dropping from 55 and 50 to 46 did help in my case. Did not mean to write a book here LOL
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Critter: When I shot a lot, I was stacking arrows at 20 yds with my Browning recurve, no sights. Anyone can do this. Once you get your bow and arrows tuned, it's just a matter of focusing on the smallest spot possible.. a meditation. Don't be lookin' at your arrow, or anything else,, just what you want to hit.
It's probably not your bow. Please look for articles on "tuning" your bow and your arrows. The addition of anything to your bow, or your arrows, will change the way it shoots, usually, by slowing your bow down, requiring softer arrows; or, if the mass is added to the arrow, it will soften the arrow and you'd need a stiffer arrow. Both can/will have dramatic effects.
1st: There's a magic spot for your nock point; check to see what your bow maker recommends and what other bow makers recommend, to get a general range. Get yourself a bow square and a tool to attach and remove a nock point. After I find the sweet spot, I tie a nock point with dental floss and get rid of the metal. Your broadheads may require a slightly different nock point than your field points, depending on the weight and dynamics.
2nd: Sounds like you've changed the bow and therefore the arrow spine required. You can best play with this by getting a wide range of field points, from 85gr to 145gr; and you can add weight to them. 25 grains of tip weight equates to 3 pounds of draw wt.
3rd: Another major effect of your arrow is length; 1"= 5 pounds of draw wt!!
Since you've added something to your bow, I would imagine that you've slowed it down, requiring softer shafts; just for grins, try adding 25 grains of tip wt., or shooting a longer arrow and see what happens. If it's going the wrong way, change up and reduce tip wt. shorten your arrow.
There are a lot of things that will affect your bow's performance, including what type/mass of string you have and if you use silencers what the mass of those silencers are and how far from the bow tip they're placed.
Changing your brace height makes a difference. Find the recommended range for your bow. Even a couple twists of the string, one way or the other will affect your groups.
Your arrows should wobble a bit, coming off your shelf, but not radically. Again, find some info on bow/arrow tuning and don't sell your bow yet. Bows are like musical instruments; one tiny thing can be slightly off and it can produce drastically bad results. But when it's right, the music is sweet!
Good luck!!..... Ken
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Dang....some of you need to get out more with some serious hunters .....I've been around some DAMN good shots.....LOTS of them. Most of them never talk about 'groups', 'shoots' or 'tourneys'...but shoot they do let me tell ya. Most of them don't post on this forum either.
Jason Wesbrock is included in one I know....even though he just posted here.
Most of the guys I know that actually kill stuff on a consistent basis are WAY better than average. That's in the field...not the internet. When you spend time stump shooting with fellow hunters....you can find out real quick.
I remember one group we had shooting at a prickly pair paddle at Solana once at around 50 yards....its was scary at the accuracy of that group let me tell ya. And one of them was 13 year old Skyler Wilson.
Just my observation,....from someone who does not compete against other archers.....but hunts a lot with other successful bowhunters. Not sure how they would do on 'the butts'....but I don't think they care.
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definitely something about living, breathing targets that'll bring out a real hunter's A-game...
can't add to the prickly pear details, wasn't there----but it sounds like a good way to kill some Texas limestone rocks, which i prefer to do with Wensel Woodsman heads
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Too Funny Joel....who you kidding.....rocks my a....
I heard tale of the guides jaws dropping when you bailed out of the truck and shot that running boar.
Let alone all the deer you killed out there. :readit:
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About this accurate.
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/silvertip70/P1030003.jpg)
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ohhh, that definitely left a mark
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Hey, y'all,, Critter was asking for advice, not knee-slappin' "whatever" comments. I, too, expect to find real knowledge and specifics here, at this site.
Please don't make light of someone's request for factual advice. In-the-field experience is great advice, but only if he's going out there with his equipment properly tuned.
Elevate this site to a place where people can get good, solid info.
Thanks!... Ken
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There's no way I would base how good of a shot I am in trying to shoot groups at a target. On a normal day I walk out my back door, shoot one arrow at my target, pull it and move into the woods for the first stump and just keep going never shooting twice at the same thing. Standing in front of a target trying to shoot tight groups is for the guy with a pin on his bow.
That being said I know guys who couldn't put 3 arrows in the entire bale but take game with great shots every year. I know others who can shoot with the compound guys on a 3-D course and push them all day long.
Take your bow to the woods where there is no known distances and shoot. Feel the bow and feel the shot. I guarantee you won't get rid of your bow once you get to know it. That's what traditional shooting is all about.
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Kenner....did not mean to make light of anyone's questions. I was addressing other comments made. I just see a lot of comments from folks that there really aren't a lot of good shooters...only average....I guess that is true...but MOST of the guys I hunt with are great shots. As far as elevating this site....we are all about telling people what they CAN do rather then what they CAN'T do which I use to see on all the other sites. We STRIVE to elevate here.
I see you just registered....have a look around on this forum and you will see what I'm talking about. We don't make 'light' of being a good shot. We are all about improving.
OK....here is my answer....
Broadside profile with wife\\'s commentary (http://tradgang.com/videos/tg/m27.wmv) 2.0 MEG wmv file
Over the Pond....multi-cant angles (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
CRITTER....DO NOT aspire to be average, or be told that you will be average. You can be as good as you desire if you commit to doing so.
I would be glad to help....I really get a kick out of seeing guys improve. If you can video yourself that might be the best thing. Check out the member improvement videos stickied at the top, as well as the forum clock thread. If you get down south....let me know.
email me if you would like to chat...
[email protected]
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Originally posted by critter69:
I bought a morrison shawnee from a gentalman on here about 9 months ago. Got the bow, I thought I shot it great, noraml group size 7 inches. Sent it to bob morrison had snake skins put on it. Shoot it about every day.And have not been able to consistantly shoot under a 14 inch group in the last 4 months. I feel far from confident trying to hunt with it. Just wondering truth fully what group size is average?(20 yards and be honest :help: )I think iam going to sell the bow but I cant post on here as I dont think I have 100 posts. So if any one knows where I can list it I would appreciate it. Iam just very frustrated,and love the whole traditional bow thing(love the bows) but If I cant hunt with it I dont want it.
#1. If I made a change, and changed only one thing, and thereafter my group size doubled I certainly would undo what had been done. Are you sure you didn't reverse the limbs top-to-bottom?
I judge myself this way. Every morning I go to my basement and take one shot at a 20 yard bale. It has five 6" black rings with 3" white centers. If I put the first shot in the white center I an very happy with myself. If it's in the black ring I'm happy. And if it is within 2" of the black it's still a dead deer at 20 yards but I'm not satisfied and shoot four more arrows (one at each of the five rings).
Some days I'm definately "hotter" than others and can keep 5 arrows in a 4" or 5" group centered in the ring.
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When I shoot 3D's I like to shoot one arrow and change positions, when I'm punching paper I'm checking groups for form errors and how well I maintain focus over a longer period.
Think the important thing is not so much how you practice but whatever you doing it's not just to avoid your weak areas of shooting, some things I'm good at, like for me it's a good feeling to be pounding tight groups on my walkback training 10-65y but I mix it up and work on the things that dont come so easy, end of the day it makes me more consistent and confident.
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My points were:
To shoot well you must practice with a well tuned bow.
Only in rare instances will one get more than one shot at game.
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Terry,
I always get a kick out of those vids, what is the draw weight of that bow? I only ask because I saw someone earlier say they shot better groups the closer to 50# they shot, I shoot a bow closer to 65#-70#.
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Some guys are natural athletes and others have to practice all the time to keep their game sharp. I think the majority of us, including some very fine shots, benefit from practicing at targets and working on consistant form.
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Yeah Snag...everyone would benefit from that for sure. Even athletes need to practice diligently.
There are many ways to shoot accurate....get your form/proper alignment down(which does not require being an athlete), and figure out what aiming system works best for you, and I believe everyone has a chance to be a good shot IF...IF they really want to.
I know guys that are not athletically inclined that gap shoot lights out. They have told me they never were good at sports, but were more methodical mentally in nature. But they wanted it bad enough, and they found a way.
I don't think anyone should discount their ability because they are not athletes. There are ways around it, and many have proven. Just ask away here and you will find out. Again, this is a forum of CAN....not can't.
If one does research on this forum, there's a wealth of information to help them. If they can't find it via search, the missing link might be on question away.
And....if you see someone post that you think is making light....maybe there is some info in that post you are not grasping. Some have different deliveries, and some have been around here for years and throw out inside jokes.....such as Joel, I know the rock he is talking about, I got the rock he mentioned and sent it to Gene Wensel. They owned the Wensel Woodsman at the time, and it made me smile.
I'll see if I can find a pic of that rock....
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I loaned Joel this head at Solana Ranch, while at the ranch, the idea of Trad Gang was spawned...the white marking means there is a 'short' adapter in it. A TX doe did its two step on him and wheeled out of the line of fire and this is where the head ended up.
The rock resides in Gene Wensels den. See why his comment made me smile and wasn't making light? His post had merit and was a gesture/reminder for me of fond memories....Same as Sunny Hills.
(http://tradgang.com/tg/copperhead/bhs.jpg)
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Originally posted by Northwest_Bowhunter:
Terry,
I always get a kick out of those vids, what is the draw weight of that bow? I only ask because I saw someone earlier say they shot better groups the closer to 50# they shot, I shoot a bow closer to 65#-70#.
The 1st vid was a 61# Morrison Cougar...and the 2nd vid was either a 60 or 70# MOAB...I can't remember, I have two just alike. I could have made that video with either. I start out the fall season with 65 to 70#s...then when it gets cooler I drop down to 60 pounds. Mostly because I'm hunting whitetails and and still instead of moving for bears n hogs in Cohutta in Sept Oct.
Each person will have a weight that suits them best, and that's what they should shoot.....its not 'one size fits all'. And with age, I'm sure I'll drop down a bit.
Sorry I didn't see your post earlier, I wasn't ignoring you. :campfire:
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Got your email Northwest....thanks.
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Sometimes the fletching of five arrows are touching and they are stacked in there. Sometimes not as good.
How about a change in thinking here. How about shooting at 40 or 50 yards for a while and get reasonbly well with it and then see just how easy 20 yards really is. Works for me. :)
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Thank you Shawn Butler and ncsaknech1ydh
Your advice has been quite helpful. Especially shooting 1 arrow at a time (although I leave them in the target as a record of my progress). I now leave the quiver at the target, walk to the shooting line, draw and shoot, then walk back and get another arrow.
This gives me time to relax, breathe and mentally prepare for the next shot. It also allows me to review the last shot: what I did wrong, what I did right.
The results:
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/MarkTwain2/6intheCircle-small.jpg)
I had to record the moment. Six arrows in a 5.5" circle from 30 feet! First time ever! :D
I feel like a proud papa!
Thanks for the great advice.
I hope I can do it again.
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OK....stay after it!!!
Now keep after it till yo can do that at SIXTY feet!
Yep....you can do it.
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Excellent! Great shooting Yeoman! Keep at it, excellent form is the key to everything... Even those instinctive "off the cuff" shots at unknown distance. When you cement your form it takes over in the moment of truth and you don't have to think about much other then the spot you want to hit.
I like to shoot what I call walk up groups. Basically I start at a longer distance... varies but usually around 40 yards. Take a shot, walk up as I'm nocking another arrow, stop and take another, and so on and so forth. Depending on the targets I have out I'll shoot 4 or 5 arrows as I walk closer to the targets (I usually have a broadhead in the quiver, and don't like to shoot at my Glendel with it...).
Just another way to work your form, and get to know your arrow flight at different distances.
Here is one from this morning, just really getting to know this particular bow... but we are getting along pretty well at this point.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/56KwykStyk003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/56KwykStyk002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/56KwykStyk001.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/56KwykStyk004.jpg)
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I used to count myself lucky when I could hit 10 inch groups. I've been shooting a lot of target lately (with a lot of compound and target archers) just because I had nowhere else to shoot. My shooting was getting worse and worse for a while, until one day I was able to go out and stump shoot by my lonesome. Suddenly I was hitting everything I was aiming at!
I think with me it actually comes down to being self conscious. I feel really crowded on an archery line. I shoot a heck of a lot better by myself.
As to actually answering the question...I would say my groups are the 6-8 inch range recently, with the occasional flier if I get tired.
EDIT: Rereading this, it seems like I'm dissing target/compound archers. I'm not. It's just a style of archery that I'm not very good at. The detailed scorekeeping makes me too anxious about my score and not about my shot.
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Jake even though I'm a seasoned tourney shooter (25 years) even Indoor rounds sometimes get too much for me, standing on the line fighting for elbow room, Field\\3D I'm much more at home as I can shut out the distractions a little better, so I understand what you're saying.
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Bowhunter, looks like you are sure getting along well with your bow :thumbsup:
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I gotta say that even out to 25 yards I can generally put five or six arrows in an area slightly larger than a barn!
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Lee, in my case it really depends on the size of the barn.
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Precisely! Make your barn really small and groups will tighten/individual arrows will nail the spot.
And then...... If one notices, at 10-15yds, that the arrow isn't going where one is pointing,, then it's a problem of tuning.
Tune first, just like tuning a musical instrument; and by tuning,, I mean even listening to the sound the bow, string, and arrow make. Learn about the many factors of arrow spine, arrow length, and point weight make on an arrow's performance. Look at the flight.
Then, when you're happy with the flight of the arrow,, go do everything everyone has said.
Here's a monumental point!: One can practice at putting an arrow, spot on, at a certain distance,, but that may only be where it is spot on, (the node), as is wiggles through space... and at half-an-arrow's length different, (the anti-node), the arrow can basically be going sideways.
Your arrows need to fly like a dart, from ~10/12 yds and beyond. If they wobble too much, you'll hit the animal,, but you'll hit it with the shaft,, and the most expensive broadhead in the world won't do a thing.
Keep the energy of an arrow moving as straight as a predator's/runner's focus.... and not like a person, wiggling down the street, trying to attract attention... (though, they do get their target that way!).
Critter,, Don't sell your bow. Get it set up properly, as far as brace height and nock height; and even those change an arrow's flight, with slight variance.
Those skins added weight and changed everything. I put "Bow Sock" on my limbs in the early /70's... Nice camo,, but.... And!... not needed!!!
Then,, have similar arrows, with different point weights to see what works best.
Then, know that you can stiffen a shaft, which is similar to reducing point weight, by slightly shortening the shaft length.
This is good technical advice. Telling you to just go shoot a poorly tuned bow and arrow is bad advice... and shooting a poorly tuned bow/arrow a lot is just frustrating.
Find someone who really knows how to tune equipment and they can help you in a very short period of time.... And then go shoot at all ranges, one arrow at a time... stump/cone/flower shooting.. it's the best hunting practice,, but only if your gear is working.
Good shooting!.... Ken
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I shoot because I am able to just get totally consumed in the moment while I am doing it. Nothing else seems to matter when I am shooting.
I usually keep my distances in reality with hunting situations. It just makes sense to me. Most of my shots are under 20yds with some being under 10.
I do believe that backing up sometimes and really concentrating makes those close shots even more of a positive. This was inside at Gander Mountain,30 yards with a Leon Stewart Slammer. It is 40#@28" and they are Easton Axis 600 with a 175 gr point.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr330/livrht/0514111209.jpg)
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Originally posted by kenner:
Telling you to just go shoot a poorly tuned bow and arrow is bad advice... and shooting a poorly tuned bow/arrow a lot is just frustrating.
Ken
I agree completely....
And, is the 'shooting poorly tuned arrows is ok' being posted here on this forum somewhere?
Again, you are new here, and not sure you know the history of some of us posting here. We have ALWAYS advocated well tuned equipment, sharp broadheads and accuracy as PARAMOUNT.
So, if someone somewhere on here is advocating shooting mixed match equipment that is not tuned....please tell us who it is and give us some links to some threads.
Thanks.... :campfire:
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Thanks Tradgangers.
I appreciate the encouragement & the excellent advice I find on this site.
Somehow I manage to find my way here everyday. Except for having a personal archery coach, Tradgang is the best way to learn the great sport of trad archery.
Yeoman
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i find that for me, if i go out and start shooting arrows without thought, my groups are not that great. if i concentrate and think about what i'm doing ie. terrys clock. i can put the arrows in a nice tight group. i practice at 20 yards. if i'm having a bad day, i walk up to the bale and concentrate on form and forget about accuracy. i am not at the point yet where it's second nature to me. don
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(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/deanfamilyalbum/95ca79c1.jpg)
This at 15 yards
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/deanfamilyalbum/8cd92efd.jpg)
This at 20 yards wood arrows
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Well, I like the look of that, Longbow. That's getting it done.
I agree with the posts that speak to the arrow. I got a dozen from a fletcher that plugged my bow info into his calculator and what a difference! I hated the 20 yard shot, now like it. Group size? Not quite there yet! I get enough right in the spot to know, it's not a fluke, but need more time to bring the "flyers" in.
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(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2362382/photo.JPG)
I was reading this post and decided to find out for myself and post the results - regardless of the outcome. I usually only shoot a couple arrows at different targets so i grabbed six and headed out. I took six warmup shots at a different target at 15 yards to get loose and then shot this six arrow group at 20 yards. Four of the arrows were touching, with two lonesome souls (bad release or follow-through). Not as good as Longbowray but I'll take it on this beautiful Memorial Day.
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Saluki Turk 50# 15 to 40 yards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYXqkywWqjo)
This me warming up in the morning in Tallinn Medieval town with my 50# Saluki Turk, walkback from 15 yards to 40 yards (split finger)on 40cm IFAA bunny face, it's a very light and tricky bow to shoot but great fun to shoot and nice feeling when you can stack them in the target face. :)
I mostly shoot a 45# ILF Recurve 3 under but it's a little out of place in a Medieval town when I'm doing demos of Trad Archery
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Tom,
Glad to know that adjusting your arrows worked! Now you can play with point weight: Heavier makes the spine act softer; lighter makes them act stiffer. Just play with it. If you're using glue-ons, you can add a BB, which weighs 5grains. I also use split shot and BB's to at up to 20gr. Your nocking point makes a big difference too!.. By loosening it slightly and moving it up and down, you'll see a difference. There's a perfect sweet spot for each kind of arrow you shoot. You should get a bow square to play with this and start with a mid-range of the bottom of the metal nock, 3/4" high of level. Then play with it from there to see which height gives you best flight.
Good shooting!.... Ken
p.s.... Also make sure your arrows are tuned to the same brace height, which you check with your bow square. Depending on the bow and the string thickness, a few twists of the string can change things. Your string can/will stretch over time and your brace height will change.
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I can hit the broad side of the barn.
Matt
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I can group about 6-8 inches at 15 yards. Much improved recently, fences used to fear me. :)
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Wish I could offer you more, but the following has propelled me from missing a large Morrel Outdoor Range target 8 out of 10 shots at 20 yards ,since my last stroke last June, to competency.
1. Choose a very manageable draw wt which doesn’t detract from form development.
2. Develop a regimented yet doable routine that you adhere to each and every shot and work at it until it actually appears and is actually quite relaxed.
3. Attempt to understand why each part of your form is important in how it contributes.
4. Learn to employ both relaxed and controlled back tension
5. Attempt to make perfect shot execution on each and every shot and take time to reflect after each shot.
6. Learn to remain focused on the spot while smoothly going thru your routine until the arrow strikes the intended target. Maintain your head postition from the aiming sequence thru the complete follow thru.
7. Allowing my bow arm to steady and smoothly releasing while remaining focused thru a relaxed yet strong follow thru has paid big dividends.
8. It is much easier to focus once you own a relaxed form and also much easier to recognize errors or discern factors that produce positive results.
9. Learn to tune your bow. Knowing and being intimate with your bow permits you to be one and deliver on the mark.
The objective is not to wish the arrow to be on the mark but to allow the bow to perform. Mastering your form will permit you to vastly elevate your own traditional experience.
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Very impressive shooting Zeta!
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For reference to the original question, In practice and when I am on form, I can put 5 arrows into a coffee cup lid repeatedly at 20 yards. In competition in a 300 round I score in the 260 range but in practice I am 270 to 275. I am in my second full season since I took up archery. I bought my first bow since high school in 2009. I have never been athletically inclined, but I wanted this and in the master category I have taken gold 2 years running indoors at 20 yards in the Canadian championships. I also set 3 records outdoors this spring in a 900 round (55 45 and 35 Metres). If I can jdo it anyone can.
3 arrows at 30 yards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgAp4Y4psM8)
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Here's a good article on tuning your equipment:
http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
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The problem with this question is that people tend to forget the odd arrow that landed 10" low or left or high, etc., and just remember the ones that hit within 3 or 4 or whatever inches from the spot. If you can always average 6" at 20 yards, you can shoot something around 240 on an indoor 300 round, and very, very few traditional shooters can honestly do that. I shot today and never had an arrow out of the scoring area of a Vegas 3 spot face, but tomorrow that might not be the case at all. Don't get hung up on it. Lots of people claim to shoot 6" or less at twenty yards, but if they remembered all the arrows, the actual number of people that can do it daily is pretty small. The question is, do you feel confident in taking a twenty yard shot at an animal? If the answer is no, get closer until the answer is yes. I mostly shoot less than 6" at 20 yards, until I don't, but I feel confident that I can kill deer at that range. Remember, everyone misses, even if they don't admit it. JMO.
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when I focus and actually take the shot I can usually pull off about a 6" group at 20 yards, but I don't shoot very much at that distance as my normal hunting shots are usually 8-15 yards.
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First of all, you need to quit worrying about yardage. Stop thinking of shooting from a certain "yardage", because there is no set "yardage" when your out hunting.
If your good at shooting up close then hunt close. Bowhunting is a close up game of chess between you, and whatever your hunting.
Shooting a little further back will come to you with time and practice, do a little roving around the yard shooting at tennis balls with a judo or a big blunt. It'll come to ya brother, hang in there.
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Originally posted by Larry247:
First of all, you need to quit worrying about yardage. Stop thinking of shooting from a certain "yardage", because there is no set "yardage" when your out hunting.
I'm no Bowhunter but when I shoot 3D knowing the yardage during practice gives me good feedback on how my accuracy drops and helps me be more consistent by understanding why the shot sometimes goes wrong.
Understanding how your arrows drop and groups open out at 10, 20, 30+ yards will speed up the learning and confidence building process, when you gain that experience and confidence that's when you can stop thinking about Form and Distances.
If I was to learn Bowhunting it seems logical to me that you're also learning about your limitations and I imagine it's good to know during practice what distaces are outside your comfort zone so I would know when not to take a shot.
If your hunting limit is below 15 yards and you dont know what 15 or 20 yards looks\\feels like, how can you make any shot with confidence?