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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Osage61 on June 16, 2011, 07:59:00 AM
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I tend to slowly relax my hand to allow my release by having the string slip off my fingers as I continue to slightly draw further past my anchor. Sometimes I have tried "snapping" my hand open as well. Is this a case of: "Whatever works" and going with it, or is there a particular discipline for the releasing of the bow string.
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Yes, Relax your fingers and let the string slip away. You CANNOT open your fingers fast enough and they will interfere with the string. You may want to checkout the video I posted in the "release tips" thread. It's on the second page here on the "shooter's forum" or do a search -- See if that gives you any ideas.
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Personally, I consider release part of follow through. After anchor, I try to "transfer" any remaining tension that is in the draw arm including the forearm and hand (but not the hook) into the back. After that point, I am thinking expansion (also part of follow through)which triggers the release.
If I am working on just the release and nothing else, I am concentrating on the release of tension from the fingertips.
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Ideally, your release should be triggered somewhere in your back muscles, without a conscious effort to relax or otherwise open your string hand. After you come to full draw, and as you continue to increase back tension, the release should just "happen." I've found in classes I've attended that this subconscious release seems to work pretty naturally for about 9 out of 10 people. For that tenth person, they just stand there at full draw waiting for a release that never seems to come. Eventually, the instructor seems to be able to coax it out of them, or maybe they just get tired of standing up in front of the class and fake it so they can sit down.
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OK thanks guys...I watched the video Arne thank you. It was quite detailed and informative with many great angles. I went back to my driveway for some more shooting and really concentrated on the release. Dave you are right as well about that subconscious release I think. It almost feels unnatural at times to let something slip from my fingers that I am trying so intensely to hold onto !!!!! Although I have been working hard for some time to get my fingers to "slip away" it still is a weird feeling to let it go like that, but it appears to be improving. Takes a fully conscious effort for me to do it though still !
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Osage, Bob and Dave are absolutely correct about the unconscious release. I would say though that when you are learning it, close range blank bale (DO NOT TRY TO HIT ANYTHING) with concentration only on the "feel" of the relaxing fingers is what you want to do. You should get NO "burn" in the pads of your fingers. Once you have gotten the feel, the sub-conscious release will happen more naturally and will become a non-event as you "pull through the shot."
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ok Thanks again to all of you. No burn in the pads 'eh? Alright, I'll see how this works out for me. I'll try the close range with no target as well. This is my form and release right now.
http://youtu.be/LjZBtv9UOuI
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Todd, Thanks for posting your video it helps a lot.
First, you have a LOT of really, really good things going on! One of the steadiest bow hands I've seen for a while. Really good positioning of both shoulders and good steady posture through the shot.
If you do a start/stop on your video as you reach full draw, to watch the release sequence, there are two things that stand out. One, as you release the string, watch how your hand moves directly away from your face. This movement tells me that you are not getting the weight of the bow into your back muscles and are holding it with arm strength. It also shows that you have stopped pulling. This may be related to you trying to think or relaxing the fingers but causes you to relax everything else too. Ideally, your string hand should recoil back keeping contact with your jaw bone and ending up behind your neck or on the top of your shoulder.
Two, Look at your string fingers after the arrow is gone. See how they are sticking straight out? That is an indication that you are still trying to open your fingers to let the string go away and in so doing are trying to help string clearance by moving your hand out away from the string. If a relaxed release is done well, it should look like an optical illusion where the string has moved through your fingers and the fingers are still curled in just like they were on the string before the shot.
With your shooting glove on it is hard to tell how much "curl" you have in your string fingers but the tips of at least your index and middle finger should be pointed back at your neck -- not sideways toward your chin -- I just cannot see how your fingers are. This curl is the real definition of a deep hook; not how far the string sits in to your fingers toward the palm of the hand. With a deep hook it is actually easier to relax off the string than if the string is out on the pads of your finger tips.This takes patience and practice to get the correct feeling. If you notice the short clip in my video where I was just pulling the string back a couple inches and releasing, that is a good practice to begin to feel the correct relax sequence.
As I said earlier lots of good things and your form is really looking good. Getting control of that release WILL reduce that horizontal spread of arrows I see in the video. You elevation is good and largely due to the great, steady bow hand. Getting your string hand moving consistently straight back along the jaw will reduce your horizontal spread significantly.
Be patient! This will take time and practice!
Post again and we'll keep looking! :archer2:
With the shooting glove on it is hard to tell how much "curl you
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Arne that was a much appreciated analysis of my video and style. I understand what you are speaking of so I'll get back onto the fingers and the hook. I'm going back to your own video right now to have a look at that little exercise you were doing. I'll post another video after some more practicing. Thank you greatly :archer:
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I was told by an old timer a long time ago that you dont let go of the string you let the string go.
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Arne, here is my first attempt with that hook in the first joint of the fingers and trying to draw all the way through after anchoring. See what you think if you don't mind Sir. Looks like maybe my wrist is bent in towards me even though I tried to have it rotate. As you said, this will take some time.
http://youtu.be/Tp4tcuFB878
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Second attempt with a closer view from the camera.
http://youtu.be/qKLBvBb-cRI
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Looking much better.. try allowing the string to pull from your fingers while you pull with the back.. it's not so much throwing the fingers open... it's about letting the string rip from your fingers.
If done correctly you will fell the fingers brush your cheek on the way to your shoulder..
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Todd, Need to run for a class this PM but. This looks much better! Now that you are shooting up closer, if you can, get the target up to shoulder level so you are not shooting "downhill". See how far down your bow arm is? Look at the angle between the bow arm and spine and try to keep that angle at 90* while you are practicing. Either that or bend at the waist to keep that critical angle.
As I say, this will take some persistent practice to get to a point where it feels natural but as you get better with it I think it will vastly improve your shooting.
I'll be back "online" later this PM.
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Originally posted by wtpops:
I was told by an old timer a long time ago that you dont let go of the string you let the string go.
I like that advice :thumbsup: . I can visualize what is being said and try to use that. Thanks for the input :archer2:
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Your tempo was much slower in the last videos than the first ones. That is a good thing.
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Thanks to all of you guys for your comments and help :thumbsup: It is greatly appreciated. I'll re-read everything and then take another look at my latest videos/form and then practice again later while trying to touch on the things mentioned. Again thanks !!
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It's difficult for me to tell from looking at the videos, and I could be wrong about this, but it is possible that you may be torqueing the bow and/or the bowstring. Torqueing the bowstring means that your string hand is putting sideways pressure on the string, usually trying to get the bow into a more upright position. Torqueing the bow means that your bow hand is putting a sideways pressure on the handle, like your thumb pressing a little too hard on the side of the bow handle. There should be a straight back pressure from your string hand and a straight forward pressure from your bow hand. If your bow jumps forward after release, that is a good sign. If you come to full draw and hold it for a second, then relax your hands, and the bow tries to change positions, that is a bad sign.
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Originally posted by McDave:
It's difficult for me to tell from looking at the videos, and I could be wrong about this, but it is possible that you may be torqueing the bow and/or the bowstring.
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Oh this sounds good! I'll have a look at that and try to feel it. This makes sense that a person could be doing it. Bow canted to the right slightly but string hand pulling perpendicular causing tourque back the other way...correct?
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What you describe is the usual problem I have had with torqueing the string: the string hand wanting the bow to be in a more vertical position. Ideally, you would solve this problem by relaxing your string hand and forearm so that they naturally follow whatever cant you hold the bow in, without having to consciously hold them in allignment. One of the reasons I suspect you may be doing this is that on some of your shots I noticed some tension in the muscles in your string forearm that should ideally be more relaxed.
When I torque the bow or bowstring, my usual evidence is that my arrow hits to the left of my mark (I'm a RH shooter). Another key is if my string hand doesn't end up where it should after the shot. On the next shot, I'll make sure my bow hand thumb isn't pressing against the handle, and that my string hand and forearm are as relaxed as possible by transferring all possible weight to my back muscles. Generally this solves the problem and my next arrow flies straight, assuming I don't pluck the string or do something else wrong.
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After watching your videos I see much improvement in your anchor and release...
But shooting at a bail without any specific target doesn't tell you if your torquing the bow.
One of the easiest ways to find out if you are, is shooting at a vertical line. Tape a piece of
cardboard over your backstop. Draw a line with a marker or what have you.. (Make sure you focus on that line)..
If you torque the bow, you'll see it instantly..
You can fix any fliers you have by changing the position of your waist.. And to do that, is by moving your
right or left foot slightly. Do this at about 3-5 yds but make sure your backstop is chest level.
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McDave, I have been trying to consciously NOT put too much pull in the arm. Yesterday, after the video analysis when I went back outside, I could really feel the back muscles being used. By concentrating on the technique and working to get that down, I could feel my arm not doing so much of the gripping and drawing. BowsanAiros, I will use the line to see if I can tell anything about my arrow flight. I'm heading to the range this afternoon. I'll take all the advice and I'll record with a tripod and camera. :archer2: Thanks very much. Video to be posted this evening I hope.
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This video is done without a shooting glove so that I can better see the "hook" and some of the finger release. Looks like I'm dropping my elbow rather than rotating it rearward.
http://youtu.be/0ONZbDSunG0
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A look from behind to try to see what my back is doing. Again, the elbow looks high and not rotating properly ????
http://youtu.be/L5eavrRPRjI
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This is a close up from the front to try to get a read on what I'm doing.
http://youtu.be/JRDL2FbElq8
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After watching my own videos I can see that it looks like I am trying to over do my elbow rotation to the rear......back to the range...
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http://youtu.be/nXoy93d7aX4
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Todd, Your string hand direction along you face is much better and like some other said after your 2nd video posting, you are holding much better. That is you have slowed down your release -- this is GOOD!
In your first video just posted, you mention that you are overdoing the elbow rotation. YES! It is from still having too much upper arm and anterior deltoid (back of the shoulder) involvement. See how your string hand ends up straight up in the air above your shoulder? If you can get transferred into your rhomboids and at that point take you shoulder out of the system (relax the shoulder and hold with your scapula pulling toward you spine) the motion of your string hand should be straight back along your jaw and stop either on the back of your neck or on the top of your shoulder.
In the second video, from the back. Watch how when you get to full draw, your string arm elbow stops moving. It should not stop but continue to pull although the movement is very small. This happens as you transfer the power to your rhomboids and off your shoulder. Also note how your shoulder blade is sticking out. This is as it should be. On release the shoulder blade will snap down toward you spine and in this video it does. The problem is that as you watch your shoulder to too adds to the effect which is causing your string hand to pop up into space.
Actually the very first shot in the back view is quite good but the rest show that flying hand.
In the "in front of the bow" view, your string hook looks very good with no torque on the string that I can see. On release your hand disappears behind your head and that looks good but from this angle I can't tell if your hand is up in the air or on your shoulder.
In any case, you have made great strides in the last couple days and you are far closer than you may think right now. Too bad we live so far apart since I think one face to face session would have you right where you want to be.
In the mean time and next time you go to shoot try this:
When you get to anchor, consciously see if you can feel the weight of the bow getting braced on your bones from the bow hand to the bow shoulder to the string arm shoulder. If done correctly it will almost feel like you get a weight let off. Like what you get on a compound bow but maybe not as drastic. If you can feel that, then just relax your string fingers and let the string slip away. If you have really achieved bone on bone support and gotten your shoulder relaxed, your hand will only move straight back and stop on your neck or top of the shoulder as the shoulder blade only has about a half inch to travel. Do not make a conscious effort to move your string elbow back, it should happen automatically.
If you watch my "release" video again (if you can stand it) watch the string arm elbow closely and you will see it continue to move toward my back in a horizontal direction. After the release see where my string hand ends up or stops and compare it to your videos. If you haven't, you may also want to watch the video about shooting a Hill bow using the BEST system. That will give another set of views. One of the clips there is directly from my back and you can compare shoulder movement to yours.
Todd as I say you really are VERY close. When trying new things it can be very frustrating right up to the eureeka moment.
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After typing the last response, I found your last video posting. First shot really good, second shot hand up, third shot good!!!!
You are looking smooth but what stands out on your "good shots" in this video is how effortless the shots look. You don't force the motion. As I said before, this will take concentration and practice and patience but you've made GREAT progress.
Enjoy that beer, YOU'VE EARNED IT!!!!!
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see my pm
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Todd,
Following your thread has been very helpful to me as well. I'm gonna try the relaxed curled wrist from Arne's videos tomorrow morning. It's awesome how knowledgeable and helpful people are on here. I wanted to add something that helped me tonight. I built a formaster and tried it out. I finally felt a very relaxed drawing forearm and less forced/ more natural "slipping" of the string. Note- Saw it on Masters of the Barebow 3 and they said to not use it on bows 60+ lbs
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Originally posted by JWarnken:
Todd, Following your thread has been very helpful to me as well. I'm gonna try the relaxed curled wrist from Arne's videos tomorrow morning. It's awesome how knowledgeable and helpful people are on here. I wanted to add something that helped me tonight. I built a formaster and tried it out. I finally felt a very relaxed drawing forearm and less forced/ more natural "slipping" of the string. Note- Saw it on Masters of the Barebow 3 and they said to not use it on bows 60+ lbs
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Glad you got something from it! I can't believe what it's done for me having those guys help out!! Also Javi sent me a pm with a video to watch. I'll see if I can send it on to you. Watch near the end where the coach talks about holding the shoulder blades in place. That little bit of information is right on the money. I am shooting in the competition on Pow Wow and this weeks (week 4) shot was lying on your back. When I laid on the concrete driveway, my shoulder blades couldn't rotate in the incorrect manner I was used to. By holding them still from the pressure of laying down, I was able to shoot quite well. Check it out over on Pow Wow. Here's a video of the practice before the actual competition shoot:
http://youtu.be/5OmcD5kJp5g
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Glad I could help...
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Hopefully you can post Mike's video for us all to learn from. I've had some coaching help from Moebow this week and will be sending him another video tonight of the progress along the lines of this thread. I'll start a new thread and post before/after videos as well as the diagnostic help he and several others have graciously provided.
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Here it is Rob!
http://www.performance-archery.tv/?q=node/75
I used my large training rubber band after seeing this video along with moebow's advice about transferring tension to the rhomboid muscle after I have anchored....seems to be helping me Rob. Thanks for the post and will be looking for your new thread. :thumbsup:
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Very interesting site. Didn't realize 7 months ago when I started shooting again that I'd end up in physiology class....lol. But I'm glad I'm here. Great thread Todd, gotten lots out of this one!