Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: adkmountainken on August 06, 2011, 06:13:00 PM
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i have shot trad for many years now on and off. when i switched over from compound i was drawing 28 inches so now knowing that much about trad i allways figured my draw was a solid 28 inches. well today after watching ken Thornhill shoot my Kanati i sold him i was blown away. the arrows were lasers, i mean unreal fast!!! i knew there was know way 1 inch in draw would make a difference like that. i had Ron w measure my draw THREE times. would ya believe 23 1/2 inches!!!!!!!! i never would have know. a simple thing like this makes me feel like an idiot!!!
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Ken
I remember Killy said you were shrinking. :laughing: :laughing:
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Whew! I just re-measured mine to make sure it's still the same...all good! Seriously though, 4 1/2" is a huge difference!
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yeah now consider i juat bought a new bow #56@28 and i'm drawing 23 1/2!!!!! love the bow but will order another as well.
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Ken, that seems real odd to drop that far in draw. What method did he use to check your draw?
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I went from 29" plus a string loop(compound) down to 27" and I'm 6'2". Amazes me when I watch my wife draw the same.
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I did the same thing,
I ordered a Kanati with a 29 inch draw length@ 58#'s. My buddy was watching me shoot and told me that I was way short drawing it. We measured and found out that I'm drawing it to 27 inches?! I was dumb founded,I've always shot at 29 inches,do you shrink as you grow older? I was wondering why I was having arrow flight problems. I love the bow ,and work with it. Very interesting--1Longbow
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I did a impromtu study at a 3D shoot one afternoon and found out of sixteen shooters, 14 were an inch to two inches shorter than they actually claimed to draw.
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I have heard a lot of people say that they have to order new arrows after attending a shooting clinic.
A positive change in form will often yield a longer draw length.
It is easy to fall into a 'slumping' posture. It is a real draw length killer.
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Same thing here Ken, ended up with a 24" draw with the longbow.
Adkarcher
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I put a clicker on last year and couldn't believe what I was actually drawing. Now I'm a good 27" and my groups are better than ever. Also seems to have taken away that bad first shot on cold muscles. Rob
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Holy Cra....even Ciccone draws more than that!!!
:help:
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I shot a compound @ 27" and draw right at 28" with trad bows.
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I shot 30" with compounds and release aid, 28" with my longbow.
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That seems awful short, you need to take a good hard look at your form. I've been where you are & and after working real hard on my form & trying to fix the bad habits I had since I picked up a recurve as a kid I gained a solid 2".
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I think the issue with short drawing comes from not maintaining good form and failing to fully expand at full draw. I was amazed how some guys had their draw length increase by inches at one of Rod Jenkins' clinics because they improved their form and shot from a good position. I am a solid 29.5", and I hit it almost exactly on every shot because I am fully expanded and cannot get the string back any farther if I have my dual anchor point firmly in place. Much of what I have seen that contributes to bad form is snap shooting or using such a high weight that the shooter either cannot fully draw the bow or collapses his body when trying to hold at full draw.
I think the shooter needs to start with a light bow (10 pounds lighter than what is thought to be comfortable) and draw the bow, anchor, and then continue to expand by pulling the elbow all the way back to the point it starts going to the left (for a right-handed shooter), while squeezing the shoulder blades together in the middle of the back. Have a friend pinch his fingers on the arrow where it meets the opposite side of the shelf, and pull the arrow off the string. Then measure from the deepest part of the nock to where the friend's fingers are on the arrow. Do that several times with the light bow until the longest consistent reading is reached. That should be the correct draw length, no matter what weight bow you shoot. Now repeat that same process with a normal weight bow to see whether you are getting out to full draw. Many people will find they don't. Part of that problem is strength, and part is routine/habit/muscle memory. Practice a lot with the lighter bow to get your form consistent while pulling heavier bows or something like a BowFit strictly to build strength. A Formaster also helps to make sure your form is correct, as will a good instructor/coach.
Ken -- I bet if you do those things I just suggested, you will find your draw length increasing to well over 23.5". You can't be THAT short, especially if you were actually drawing 28" with a compound! :eek:
Allan
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mountainken are you sure.....have you done the clothes pin thing to measure your draw.Could you be letting go before you come to full draw.I have seen guys at 3D shoots say they have 30" draw etc.but while watching them shoot they will have 6" of arrow hanging out when the let go.I have a 28 1/2" to 29" draw and my arrows are 29 1/2" long and sometimes my broadhead will bump ,I know then I am getting all of it.
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Might want to check that again. I'm a small guy 5'5" stocky wrestler build and I draw 25". Joe
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I agree with everything Allan said. I put form as the culprit. Work on getting that elbow 180 degrees from the target without having your shoulders collapsed, and then measure your draw length.
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Originally posted by kat:
I have heard a lot of people say that they have to order new arrows after attending a shooting clinic.
A positive change in form will often yield a longer draw length.
It is easy to fall into a 'slumping' posture. It is a real draw length killer.
I'm with Ken on that one:
I am sure ADK will draw at least a couple of inches more when fully extending his reach: The guy is built like a bear :bigsmyl:
F-Manny
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I just GAINED 2 inches in my draw length in the last year. I have been studying real hard and learning how to use back tension correctly and I have gone fron just under 28" to a solid 29.5" DL and am loving it. Part of my learning included a trip to a 2 day Rod Jenkins shooting clinic.
Bisch
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My observations are that a large percentage of shooters draw shorter than they think by an inch or more .
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I measured well ........I had Ken draw an arrow to full draw and hold, I marked the arrow in front of the riser with a marker. I had him do it 3 times. I was a toolmaker for 38 years ....I CAN read a ruler. He draws his bow like he has T-Rex arms :biglaugh: I have watched him for a while now and knew he was dreaming when he said he drew 28". Now the he knows.........Most people look at me and tell me there is no way I can draw 29+". Then they give me an arrow and I anchor, the arrow is almost of the back of the shelf. Everybody is different!!
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the problem RIGHT NOW is i'm shooting really well and hunting season is just around the corner, i really do not want to tinker with form. anyone that has watched me shoot can see i bend/slump over A LOT. i am sure that is where i will start and have Kat give me a hand.
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This seems like a good reminder to take a look at the end of your arrow when you draw once in a while. If it's got a lot of length hanging over the shelf you might be drawing short. I know I draw short when my form goes bad. Well, that's one of the things I do wrong. :)
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I couldn't agree with you more Ken.
Hunting season is almost upon us, and you have the accuracy to get the job done.
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Yes brother, soon the fall will be on us :) :)
Can't wait for October
F-Manny
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I just put a clicker on for the first time at Denton. I couldnt believe the speed i was getting from my arrows. I picked up 3 inches of draw.
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I shot 28" with a compound and release before switching to trad...now I draw an even 26"
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If Ken could get 3" more that would get him to an honest 26+"....lol! Next we could get him some big boy pants :laughing: ...I love ya bud!!
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I'm definitely not saying you can't measure, Ron. Just that his short draw is likely a form issue, and he basically agreed that it is. If Ken is satisfied with his shooting and form, then fine. If he wants to gain some draw length and zip with his current setup he can tweek his form. It's all good. Hey, buy a heavier bow if you want. Lord knows I do it often enough.
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I have a very simple draw check. My arrows are 33" to the BOP. I shoot with a closed hand grip on my bow hand. When I reach full draw the back edge of the broadhead or field tip is touching the top edge of my index finger as I come to anchor in the corner of my mouth.
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My very first thought when I read this was. Get to a Rod Jenkins clinic. But if your shooting good now, wait till after the season is over!
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it is amazing i know. it all depends on you shooting style i guess. if you strech out or hunch up... i think poundage has alot to do with it too. you shoot a bow thats lighter to you and you will streatch out as compared to being tense and crunched up.
Ken you should post up a couple full draw pic of yourself... be intrested to see
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This seems odd. You thought you were drawing 28" but you're really drawing 23.5"? So you have approximately 5"+ of arrow sticking out in front of your bow when you're at full draw?
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it is definitly a form issue i will address after hunting season. i have a solid anchor but use an extreme bend when i shoot. i'll take some form pic's later but this is nothing i want to takcle with deer season around the corner.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/adkmountainken/frogging/meshooting.jpg)
a video from frog hunting
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/adkmountainken/frogging/th_kermittpot.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v119/adkmountainken/frogging/?action=view¤t=kermittpot.mp4)
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I'm with ya... I'm 6'3 260 people look at me like you must have a 30 in draw... Which I did w a compound, I thought I was pulling 28 with my long bow lol upon studying a video of me shoot looks more like 27 , my arrows shafts are 28.5 inches.
Hey this is the best I've shot ever might work on back tension a LIL bit but not goin to change much...
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/armucheelongbows/th_VIDEO0010.jpg) (http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j377/armucheelongbows/?action=view¤t=VIDEO0010.mp4)
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My bad double post
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I'm always amazed at how may people I see seriously short drawing at 3D shoots. By that I mean no physical anchor at all. But a lot of them rack up some pretty respectable scores anyway. If you study many of the old native american bows, they were just too short to ever be drawn to what we consider full draw; but they worked. The longer I'm in this game the more I believe form has little to do with accuracy for a truely instinctive shooter. Sling shots, baseballs, etc... all work well with a large variety of styles. If you're hitting where you're looking with a 24" draw, I wouldn't try to "fix" it this close to hunting season either.
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I got just the opposite, I drew 27.5"s with the compound and now draw just shy of 29"s with my trad bows! I do not know how you ever got decent arrow flight with that much of a difference. I mean your 56# at 28" bow is closer 43-44#s now. Did he measure to back of bow, if he measured deepest part of the grip you have to add 1.75"s or so. Something seems strange, you not a real small guy. Shawn
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Ken, you have to pull those shoulders together, even bent over you would gain 2 if not 3"s if you just used back tension and got those shoulder blades squeezed towards each other! Shawn
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Shawn,
yup thats what everyone suggested but i do not want to timker before season as i am shooting well even with "bad" form. i am not short drawing, i have a solid anchor just and extreme bend. it with out a dobut has to be corrected but not with deer season a month away. Ken thornhill has offered to help me and i will graciously take him up on it.
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Being 4.5" shorter in draw length than you thought you were, it's amazing to me your arrows are tuned to your bow.
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Brother you are shooting well but I bet if you stand up and be counted you will gain some draw and it shouldn't really be hard to adjust . Drew
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Arrows are probably tuned cause they are so long, you have 8"s it looks like sticking out from the bow. Ken, I have to agree with Drew, you should be able to change and shooting well in just a couple days. It will not be that hard to adjust and the gains will be great. Shawn
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If you have proper alignment/back tension/ it matters not if you bend at the waist. Bending at the waist does not shorten your draw length if you have proper form. You can bend forward or back, rotate right or left and still have the same draw length if you are properly aligned.
The main problem is your elbow is pointing at 4 O'Clock. You are muscling the bow and pulling with your instead of your back.
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I'm a tall guy with a 28" draw too. 6'3" tall. Wear a 46 suit coat, and an 18/35 or 36 shirt. Shot a 30" draw compound.
My son who is 5'10" has more wingspan than me. They measured this in football camp, and he had more wingspan than most of the players taller than him.
So people are made differently.
I got in the habit of drawing to 27" for a while, taking my head to the string, etc. I practice to stay at 28. But even with a real light bow, if I draw to 28.5 it feels awkward, 30" is like putting the string behind my head.
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So Skipp... What's wrong with a T-Rex Draw Length of 26"? :p ... Slow and steady Ken. You'll get there when you are ready. :thumbsup: Get your elbow back and pull through the shot. Squeeze the shoulder blades together. (My 2 cents worth)
... mike ...
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Originally posted by mcgroundstalker:
So Skipp... What's wrong with a T-Rex Draw Length of 26"? :p ... Slow and steady Ken. You'll get there when you are ready. :thumbsup: Get your elbow back and pull through the shot. Squeeze the shoulder blades together. (My 2 cents worth)
... mike ...
Mike, we all knew the Waysiah and T Rex Jokes were coming. No offense, but it is funny.
Hope you are well brother!
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Originally posted by ron w:
.....Most people look at me and tell me there is no way I can draw 29+". Then they give me an arrow and I anchor, the arrow is almost of the back of the shelf. Everybody is different!!
Ron, Are you saying when you're shooting that you draw over 29"? Or just saying you are capable of it?
Have you ever video'd yourself shooting?
Only reason I ask all this is that you say you knew Ken was short drawing by watching him....I've watched you shoot bud, and unless you have done some serious work, I'd bet when shooting and not consiously thinking about it, you don't draw over 23-24" yourself.
This is just an honest critique of what I've seen bud. Not saying this to go against what your saying, just that's it's easy for us(me included) to think we're drawing further than we really do.
Video is an eye opener!
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Originally posted by Guru:
Ron, Are you saying when you're shooting that you draw over 29"? Or just saying you are capable of it?
Have you ever video'd yourself shooting?
Only reason I ask all this is that you say you knew Ken was short drawing by watching him....I've watched you shoot bud, and unless you have done some serious work, I'd bet when shooting and not consiously thinking about it, you don't draw over 23-24" yourself.
This is just an honest critique of what I've seen bud. Not saying this to go against what your saying, just that's it's easy for us(me included) to think we're drawing further than we really do.
Video is an eye opener!
Curt, No disrespect here but Ron does draw back quite far. Even though I dont know his real draw length he can extend a long arrow.
I know some people have issues getting back to anchor, especially shooting in a group of people. Target Panic is a REAL phenomenon!
Ron has done considerable work and when he is on, he's on. When he's having a bad day, well your lucky if he gets 5 inches of draw.
on a side note...
Ken Has been shooting Well! Even though he may not have GREAT form, he has been consistent in his form.
I have never seem myself shoot, I can guarentee, I have areas that I could improve my form also.
This thread is a good reminder that there's always room to improve and a constant analysis of yourself can help you correct bad habits that slowly creep up.
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One way or another, good luck this season Ken. Most of us have some form issues that we struggle with. For me it is more apparent when I rush my shots. 3D shoots seem to bring it out the worst, but I seem to be able to bring it together when target shooting or hunting. Go figure.
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thanks for postin the pic and video. i alway enjoy seeing everyones style.
I really dont think you have to mess around with it. if you can stay consistent an shoot with good accuracy dont worry about it. who says this or that is how you have to do it.... just enjoy yourself and get a bow with a weight you want to fit your draw. your arrows tuned and shoot the heck out of it man.
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wow thats a big drop. im 26.75 in compound and where i anchor for trad i measure 26"
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Charlie that's great that Ron has been working hard at it....I meant no disrespect tto him or you bud. Just an example of what an outsider looking in sees that we don't see from behind the bow ourselves...
Tollgate is where I last saw Ron shoot...
Carry on guys....see ya next weekend!
Ken, after the season is the best time to work on things like this....good luck this year hunting!
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All good stuff!
To illustrate how important form is,here is brother Drew drawing a whooping 30.5" out of his new bow:
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i144/frenchymanny/0fcf5904.jpg)
Drew is very consistent and an outsider can see him draw exactly the same arra after arra.
I would kill for that power stroke
F-Manny
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Now if I could just remember to follow through each shot. Drew
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Trust me Curt...My draw is over 29". At Tollgate I was in the middle of an extreme battle with target panic....most likely never reached full draw all day. Which is also why I shot a 130 or something like that. I can not shoot a 29" arrow if I do my part correctly. I have know Ken's problem for a while but he is shooting well, I kept my mouth shout till he asked out right. I shot with Ken and Charlie this afternoon and we all had our moments...some good ....some bad, but we had fun at the same time! :saywhat: :notworthy:
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Ron, fun is the essence of the game! Hope to stumpshoot with you soon
F-Manny
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Manny, Ken says your come'n down to hunt the Mountain.........I'll see you then!
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If you have access to a safe place to do this, and make sure to control the bow, this is a sure way to test back tension:
Stand close to a target (15 feet). Come to full draw, hit anchor(s), and hold.
Now tilt back (aim at the sky, 30-40 degrees) hold.
Tilt back to level. Hold.
Tilt down as if shooting from a treestand. Hold.
Come up to horizontal and release at target when ready.
If you feel tension in the neck or triceps, shortening of draw, or poor release you are probably not using proper back tension, nor are you bending properly at the waist.
This should be a six to eight count cycle.
This is also a good test for bow weight and ability to manage it.
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Hey I know Ron, are you sure he can read a ruler :smileystooges:
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:saywhat: :nono:
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If you ever around Mike Fedora let HIM check you ..LOL...that will be a REAL EYE OPPENER.
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Sorry duplicate ..
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You are not alone.Most people are shooting arrows spined for Bows 10# less.