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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Balding Kansan on August 20, 2011, 11:48:00 AM
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Can some of you pros provide any helpful pointers on my form? I'm working on holding anchor a little longer, but it's tough, a mental problem I believe. Any thoughts? Critisizm is also appreciated!
(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/tlholder86/th_101_0579.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/tlholder86/?action=view¤t=101_0579.mp4)
Thanks fellas....Tyler
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To hold longer at anchor...don't stop pulling. Hit your anchor point and continue to pull using your back muscles. One of the guru's will be along shortly to bring more insight to light for you.
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Tyler,
It's a little hard to see your shot from this angle but here is what I can tell you from this.
You are not using your back at all! The way I can tell this is that your string arm shoulder blade stays flat on your back during your draw and follow through. That shoulder blade should raise sharply off your back and stick out toward the camera as you draw and then when you release the shoulder blade will snap down flat to your back.
You are only using your biceps for the draw which does not let you get proper alignment of the bones and you will never be able to hold and pull through your release.
As you begin your draw, first, do not lean over so far -- stay more upright, this helps you get the back involved. Second, begin your pull by rotating your shoulder around your spine (this causes the shoulder blade to lift out from your back). Third, follow the shoulder rotation with an elbow rotation around your spine. Your upper string arm will come around MUCH more than it does in this video. (It will move back toward the camera much more, which will help line up your string forearm with the arrow better.) Keep your biceps RELAXED and NOT used!!!!
If you haven't yet, take a look at the "release tips" thread a little farther down on this forum to see if you can see that shoulder blade motion in the video I called "shooting the Hill bow using the BEST system.
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Yeah....the camera needs to be on the other side.
Your answer is in the Form Clock Thread stickied at the top. You are way out of alignment at the moment.
I will also add....doesn't matter if you stand straight up, lean over, or lean back, laying on your back, etc........proper alignment is from the waist up, and can be achieved from all sorts of positions. If you are properly aligned, you wont shorten your draw length either from from various shooting positions.
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I will also add....doesn't matter if you stand straight up, lean over, or lean back, laying on your back, etc........proper alignment is from the waist up, and can be achieved from all sorts of positions. If you are properly aligned, you wont shorten your draw length either from from various shooting positions.
I absolutely agree with Terry on this. I just find it easier for folks working on good alignment at the start to get them more upright. Then they can learn the "feel" of good alignment and how the "power unit" should feel. Then they can get into ANY position and still achieve alignment.
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Terry G: I've read the form clock post a while, but I don't have a grasp on it yet. I'll re-read. I'll also try to get a video from the other side.
Moe: Should I be trying to squeeze my shoulder blades together?
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Tyler....PM Sent
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Tyler,
I don't like that description :"squeezing the shoulder blades together." That is a poor description of the motion. Think, rather, of holding a package in your right hand/arm and swinging a heavy door closed with your left elbow.
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Try to think about it this way. the same motion drawing the bow would be the way you would close a door that was behind you with your elbow.
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Sorry, I got my lefts and rights switched around. Hold the package with your LEFT hand/arm and swing the door closed with your RIGHT elbow!!!
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May sound crazy but it works for me, i think of a straight line from target to my anchor , and try to always release the arrow on the left side of that line.
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Let's try some different angles. I've re-worked my anchor. I'm drawing further now, which I think allows me to use my back more.
(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/tlholder86/th_101_0590.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/tlholder86/?action=view¤t=101_0590.mp4)
(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/tlholder86/th_101_0595.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/tlholder86/?action=view¤t=101_0595.mp4)
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Tyler,
This looks better. An area that may help you get to the back still more. In both videos, carefully watch the motion of your drawing elbow. See how it is rising in comparison to your shoulders? That motion is because you are pulling the bow with the VERY top of your shoulder (deltoid). That is keeping the back out of the game and is what is causing your string hand to "pop" out from your face on release.
Try this. When you raise the bow to drawing position, bring it up much higher (to your nose) then as you pull, feel the elbow moving in a slightly downward direction to your anchor position. When you get the muscles covering your shoulder blade (trapezious) and rhomboids pulling, your release hand will move right along your jaw bone and not pop the hand out from the face.
I like the fact that you have the target at shoulder level, but you don't have to shoot so far as you work on this. 5 or 6 feet will do, just concentrate on a SLIGHTLY high to low draw in relation to your shoulders. That upwards motion you have now is pulling away from your strong muscles in the back and into "imaginary" muscles above your shoulder.
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I will give this a try....I think i'm following you. By starting higher and moving down, it's forcing those other muscles into action. Yes?
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Yes! By moving the elbow in a slightly downward direction (as compared to your shoulders) you are pulling into the strength of your back rather than to the weakness of the top of your shoulder.
This is not to say that your string elbow ends up lower than it is now, you are just starting higher and ending in the same place.
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Im no expert by any means, BUT what really seems to help me isolate/incorporate my back muscles in the actual draw and shot execution/back tesion release is before I start to draw the bow have my drawing arm elbow high....and draw with the elbow sorta high....This helps me FEEL my back pulling through the shot to execution. If my drawing arm elbow is low while drawing it feels like I have a hard time getting my shoulders in alignment like in Terry's alignment clock......try it it just might help you.
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Moebow's method of using a rotational draw with a completely relaxed drawing arm/hand is an excellent method to not only assure that your "T" is in perfect alignment at full draw, but that you are using complete back tension.
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I also see a 'distant' anchor'.....looks like you are not 'dug into' it. Your anchor looks to be away from your face or just barely touching it. Don't be afraid to cozy up to your anchor.
By cozying up....you can also obtain better expansion...you elbow is now back, but needs to rotate around a bit to max back tension.
This will keep your release hand from flying away from your face and it will only travel rearward....and it will help tighten up windage issues.
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OK thanks guys. I'm going to work on these items and post another video in the near future to check progress.
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I've been shooting every evening and working on the suggestions given. A few things I'm trying to hash out like why can I shoot an awesome group where the draw and release feel good, retrieve the arrows then send a few into the basement wall? It's weird for me....the millisecond before I release I either 100% know it's going to be a good shot.....or not! You know what I mean? I get this feeling where everything feels right. I guess the trick is getting that good feeling every time....
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Yes....the more you shoot....the more that 'feeling' will come to you.
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My thoughts on getting the “feel” for the shot and maintaining that “feeling” is:
Some or most make the mistake after shooting blank bail, to go to 10 yrds. They believe (think)
that all the work they've done on the bail will work at that distance (Why wouldn't you?).. What
most fail to consisder is that the one thing that goes though the mind (thinking) is whether their
going to loose the arrow or not..This makes the bail shooting you've done worthless. So they'll
go back to the bail and start over again...
The less you think about, the better you'll get that “feeling” and keep it.
So once you've drilled the bail, start shooting at 3-5yrds. and no farther. You'll be able to totally
concentrate on the target by doing this. (You'll be able to keep your form consistent)
Take as many videos as possible while shooting so you can Analyse where you've gone wrong,
when you get a flyer.
Make the most out of your shooting, because perfect practice makes for a perfect shot...
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Originally posted by Balding Kansan:
I've been shooting every evening and working on the suggestions given. A few things I'm trying to hash out like why can I shoot an awesome group where the draw and release feel good, retrieve the arrows then send a few into the basement wall? It's weird for me....the millisecond before I release I either 100% know it's going to be a good shot.....or not! You know what I mean? I get this feeling where everything feels right. I guess the trick is getting that good feeling every time....
Learning when NOT to loose the arrow is the most difficult skill of all..
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Originally posted by Balding Kansan:
I've been shooting every evening and working on the suggestions given. A few things I'm trying to hash out like why can I shoot an awesome group where the draw and release feel good, retrieve the arrows then send a few into the basement wall? It's weird for me....the millisecond before I release I either 100% know it's going to be a good shot.....or not! You know what I mean? I get this feeling where everything feels right. I guess the trick is getting that good feeling every time....
I get that too, as soon as an arrow is about to be loosed I can almost see it before it happens, perfect shot. Then when I get a little unfocused and overconfident I don't feel or see anything but an arrow flying at the target.
I've watched your videos a bit and, being new as well, I can only suggest things that have improved my form. Moe has some videos on youtube that I watched and learned how to engage my back from. Imagine yourself using a pec deck at the gym, when your easing the pads back, and I emphasize easing, your back muscles are engaged to prevent the weight from slamming down. Same concept only in reverse, you want to engage those muscles that keep you from dropping the weights too fast and hurting yourself, to draw your bow. Also I noticed you like to lean with your bow, if your doing this make sure it's not your spine your bending. Terry emphasizes this in any tips he gives and it's a great tip. Gonna bend? use your waist.
To try and keep your spine straight while drawing take a deep breath, while hunting you're obviously going to have to be quiet, but until you can remember to inhale while drawing, exaggerate it a bit.
Like I said I'm not a pro but these are all things that helped me with my form.
Stay sharp, shoot straight, and have fun. Good luck man.
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Couple of things - I am no expert either, but try a lot of things.
One, the way it feels to have a good repeatable form is very subjective. The way it feels to some is very different from the way it feels to others, and the ability to explain how something feels is difficult at best, so reading all the threads on here can get confusing.
What will work best for you will be however you can reach alignment, and bring your back muscles into play and do it with a high degree of repeatability. For me, I think of "hanging" the weight of the bow onto my back muscles. It feels to me as if I draw to my anchor, "hang" the weight onto my back muscles and expand very slowly until I'm ready to release. In practice this looks like I draw, hold, then loose. But it does feel different.
When I try to do something with my string hand, such as make it touch my shoulder on release, the result is less consistency. My hand comes back a bit, but stays close to my face or on it.
If I'm not shooting well, I usually need to remind myself to keep a relaxed string hand and relaxed bow hand as well. This cues me to use all my effort pulling away from and pushing towards my spot and none of it doing bad things.
When you say you know when you are going to make a bad shot, I know what you mean - in my case it almost always has to do with my string hand - I didn't get the right grip on the string, or something like that.
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mrjsl said:
"When I try to do something with my string hand, such as make it touch my shoulder on release, the result is less consistency. My hand comes back a bit, but stays close to my face or on it."
Your follow through should be a NATURAL REACTION coming from proper alignment and muscle use. NOT a "TRY TO MAKE IT...". If we allow our body to react normally we get good results. If we start to "play act" ourselves into a position it will never work. At least not consistently.