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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: moebow on September 04, 2011, 02:29:00 PM
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Hi all,
I just posted a new video showing a rotational drawing technique. This method really helps you get into the back muscles and is what the use of the form master really reinforces.
As always, there are many successful ways of doing something. This is meant to make you think about what you do and to offer a suggestion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8_-96h6BY
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Very good, thanks for taking the time to post it up.
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Thank you for the instruction, very informitive and easily followed
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Very good video thanks for putting it up.
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Nice job as always Arne. Once again you've provided further details to make all of us better shooters. I appreciate the various angles that help illustrate that you are properly aligned at full draw with the downward motion.
Edited to Add: For those of you who are just beginning to work with this technique, rest assured that if you draw around & DOWN you WILL BE properly aligned at full draw. Keep pulling to maintain that tension at full draw until you release. Don't worry where your arrows hit at first....you can re-tune if necessary later....just get this feeling at full draw ingrained.
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Very well done video. Static drawings are great, but if you can see the draw actually develop, it sure makes it easier for us imagination impaired types.
This one is going to get "bookmarked"!
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thanks for posting
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Your videos have helped alot! Thankyou!
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Great job.
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really helpful vid! showed my wife and she "gets it"
thanks!
L.R.
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Well done Moebow!
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Thanks Love your videos. They have been very helpful :)
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Thank you very much. As others have already stated your videos are a huge help!
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Thanks for posting Arne.
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I have a question if you dont mind.
When you reach anchor you open your mouth as your hand reaches it. Is this so that you can anchor on a particular tooth?
If so I am shooting with a big shot glove and have tried to anchor on a tooth rather than the corner of my mouth but I can't feel my tooth through the glove. Are you feeling the tooth or feeling your finger on your gum?
Thanks
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Thanks all for the kind comments, they make the effort worth while.
Dogboy, I'd like to say that the mouth thing is the magic secret that nobody wants to share :D BUT The truth is that I am completely unaware of that really silly looking foible. Looks like I'm a fish out of water and gulping air. The face anchor for me is the "C" of my hand behind the jaw bone, base knuckle of the index finger tight into my cheek bone (see how the skin wrinkles up above my hand and below the eye?) and the middle finger in the corner of my mouth.
Using the bone on bone support at full draw is my real anchor! If you are doing this, then find comfortable references on your face for the string hand. Your bone on bone draw length cannot change so the string hand has to find the spots that keep it in the same position every time. Hope this helps.
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Thanks for posting - I'm going to try this (if it ever stops raining)
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moebow! I really enjoy your videos . Thank You! Maxx
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Thanks Moebow :)
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Moebow- thank you so much for the video. I was having some real issues figuring some of this stuff out and that video along with Terry's clock really helped me out. Now just so it becomes muscle memory.
Pat
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Dogboy, I use the same glove, but I am finding that it is very hard to get a truly smooth release so I went to a Damascus glove, big difference !
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Thank you sir- its good to know I'm not the only one making goofy faces coming to anchor!
-Gorbin
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"I am shooting with a big shot glove and have tried to anchor on a tooth rather than the corner of my mouth but I can't feel my tooth through the glove".
Hey Dogboy, I have the same problem, and i really don't like using tabs. What i did was to cut the tips off the fingers on my glove. Don't cut much off, just enough so the tips of your fingers are through. then either sew the edges or dab some super glue on the seams so it doesn't come unstitched. Give it a try with an old glove, if you have one. I think you'll like the feel. Jon
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Moebow,I watched your video on rotational draw,and was excited and pleased so far with the results.shooting a traditional bow for 50 yrs or so,Ive always had trouble with tp.Using this type of draw and getting into and holding with the back muscles seem to help alot.I still have to find the ideal anchor for me,and my follow through is not always complete,but I'm going to keep working at it.Thanks so much for sharing a most informing video.
Mazz.
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That's good to hear Mazz! The rotational draw takes some practice but it DOES work.
TP can be a hard thing to break but the NTS (basically what I'm promoting) doesn't want you to aim until you are at full draw. That way, you can concentrate on the form mechanics all the way to anchor. That breaks the subconscious' ability to try to short circuit the process. Now when you "aim" (by whatever process you use) you can allow the subconscious to execute the shot (all that's left is the release and follow through) while you are now consciously concentrating on aiming. Not everyone will agree with that but in my experience it seems to work for "most."
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moebow,thanks for the prompt reply.I guess I got a little over exuberent today and shot beyond twenty yards.still hard for me to find a solid anchor and holding without the subconsious taking over prematurley and end up short drawing etc. Guess I'd better take it in small steps.Do you have any particular aiming method?
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I am unashamably a split vision/gap shooter. If I need to I can shoot instinctively like on moving/aerial targets but am more deliberate in most shooting.
Also, when learning a new process, blank bale at very close range (5-6 feet). Concentrate on the form steps and DO NOT TRY TO HIT ANYTHING!!!! Just use the bale to catch your arrows.
Think ( emphasis on CONSCIOUSLY THINKING about each step) Raise the bow, draw, anchor, relax string hand, follow through. When you have gotten totally and completely bored with that, then go to the step of aiming (still on the close bale) and put that step in AFTER anchor. THINK and do each step through anchor then and only then look at what you want to hit, line up and let your subconscious take over. If you regress, start over. This is also a really good "eyes closed" exercise through the "anchor step.
DO NOT,DO NOT try to hit a distant target until you can control the steps leading to anchor!!! this leads to falling back to the old way! One student I had always wanted to "check" to see how he was doing by shooting at a distance. It slowed his progress in a major way.
If you are serious about this, work this for a good month BEFORE you start "getting fancy." It will take that long for you to convince your subconscious that you are in control!
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Moebow, perfect timing. I have actually been working on these same issues the last few days, and your vid has definitely shone some light. I've been experimenting by trying to eliminate the downward portion of the draw prior to my "back anchor", and go straight back into a hard anchor instead of down and then slightly back up to cheek bone...and it has been very inconsistant. What your demoing above has in the past felt like a little too much wasted movement and less "smooth" than I would prefer, especially in quick time hunting scenarios. But it is Definitely a more consistant method for me and I do shoot better this way...so I will continue to work at it. Thanks for your time - great stuff!
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Moebow, I noticed in your video that your bow hand drops when you release. Is that deliberate, and what value does that bring to your shot? Thanks for offering your help to us.
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Forn Man, If the back is used, your bow hand will move SLIGHTLY to your left and SLIGHTLY down (right handed shooter). I work hard on reducing that drop, but it creeps back once in a while and IS something I struggle with. The NTS does teach (they call it a "sit down") where the bow arm stays steady and straight and at the shot the bow hand flips down. You can see this in current top level archer's videos and their bow swings down and around, with the lower limb of the bow nearly hitting them in the chin. I'd like to say that is what I'm doing, but it's NOT. Just one of my flaws. :banghead:
I went back and watched the video again as I really hadn't payed much attention to the bow hand as I made this video. I do have a couple shots where the hand drops too much, but have to say that most of them are OK. If you watch closely ( I have the advantage of having the original and can watch it in slow motion and frame by frame) You can see the bow jump directly towards the target then drops. In MOST ( but not all to be sure) the arrow is well gone before the hand drops. There is NO advantage in dropping the bow hand and usually it is a BIG no-no because it usually starts about the same time as release and has the bow moving before the arrow clears. In any case that bow hand drop of mine is NOT intentional, it just happens for me.
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Moebow, I like this drawing technique but one small problem I'm having is I'm pulling the arrow off the rest half the time if I have both the bow and string hand slightly high in the beginning. I have short fingers which may be the cause and do use a deep hook.
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Moebow, I appreciate the detailed reply. I've noticed that movement in other archers before, and have wondered if it mattered or not. I can't imagine an action like a drawn bow, with all the stored energy in your body, and then having no movement in one arm when all the weight is released at once.
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Great video! Thank you. I have taken to drawing my bow this way, and I really do feel my back muscles engage sooner than with a straight-line pull. My shoulder is thanking me too!
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reddogge, The trick to that is covered in my video on "release tips." Look especially closely at the segment where I show and talk about that wrist! Relax the wrist and the wrist will bend your hand in toward you (your wrist will bend out). When you start to draw, the weight of the string will straighten your wrist which will actually turn your fingers in a clockwise direction ( for right handers). That turn will rotate the arrow against the bow naturally. It is not something you have to do if you set up correctly.
Forn Man, That is right. you cannot stay still as a bronze statue ( it would be nice) but you WILL react to that energy release in some fashion. The trick is to react as close to the same way EVERY time as possible.
Sirius Black, This form (BEST/NTS) has been studied very closely and scientifically and it has been determined that it is as good as it gets for REDUCING injuries common to archery. There is NO way to eliminate injury if you are doing anything at all but REDUCING injury to any degree has to be a plus.
All, Thank you for all the kind comments They are all appreciated! I hope you are seeing the relation between the "release tips" and Rotational draw" videos. They are a package deal!
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Thank you, this is (as always) really informative.
Marco
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I watched the video at least 5 times. I am a little slow but I finally understood what you were telling me. It is really helping with my back tension and that is something I have been working on with mixed results for a long time. Thank you so much for taking the time to post this video.
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Arne,
Saying Thank You gets old after a while. I am a guy who followed your instruction on practice form ONLY w blind baleing. Then when you have the right form, enjoy shooting. It has paid dividends and I enjoy shooting more than I ever thought I would. I think your new vid. will help more w the finer points of higher elbow. Here I go again Thank You.
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A big thank you to moebow... I've been using this rotational draw and it has helped me immensely...
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Great vid !!
I have to ask, and hope this doesn't come across wrong.. Are you mouthing your odd feather as part of your anchoring ??
I'm still trying to get confident with shooting my bow for hunting with my longbow, but for now I'm shooting my recurve with a single pin for hunting season.. Not wanting to wound an animal if I can help it..
Thanks,
Tux
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Tux, No, I'm not. That is a totally unconscious "foible" that I have -- looks stupid doesn't it.
Most coaches will tell you that we don't really like the word "anchor" very well ( the word implies a stopping point). The real "anchor" is the bones in alignment and the back muscles engaged. The "references" that I use on the face are the "C" of my hand cupping the rear of the jaw bone, the base knuckle of the index finger pressed FIRMLY (hard) into and under the cheek bone below the eye and the middle finger in the corner of the mouth. What works for you may be different but you need to find a repeatable reference for you. Some do use the feather as a reference and it works well for some of them.
Sights have been used in one form or another for about as long as we've (humans) shot bows and arrows. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with it! If it helps you put the arrow on target, that's really all that counts.
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Thank you Sir !!
I've been trying using the "c" as well on my jawbone, after chatting with a gent at the local indoor range.. It's helped me a great deal with both my recurve as well as my longbow..
Hopefully by next year this time(provided I stick with practicing) I should be more confident with my instinctive shooting..
Thank you again for your words of encouragement !!
Tux
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I'm a little late to the party on this, but Arne's rotational drawing technique has tied together all the missing links in my draw. As I keep my bow arm pointed at the target, and watch in my peripheral vision the arrow point start to the left of the target and move on target as I draw the arrow, it's almost like a missle homing in on target. It's kind of fun to watch, and especially fun when the arrow hits the mark more than it did before!
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Great video. Thanks
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Wow. This works and it is very comfortable. Thanks for the post. Practicing this has changed my shooting for the better. I am in my 60s and this old dog has learned a new trick.
Thanks.
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Dave, Lincoln, Joe, And all the rest that have posted on this and other posts of mine;
Thank you for the kind comments!!!!! I am VERY glad that you have found value in them!
I'm currently a little gun shy about posting here since the "absolutes" post. I have NEVER wanted to confuse anyone or EVER imply that I thought that this was the only way to shoot. I have said MANY times that what I posted in the videos was a SUGGESTION to try and see if it works for you -- it may or it may not! IF it gives you an IDEA to work on and makes you think about what you do, that is the intent!
I'd also remind everyone looking at the videos that they were originally made for KIDS in the 10 to 18 year old age range. I give many of my students a CD with these videos so they can review class lessons at home as reminders. My narration is specifically set to that age group so PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT I'M "TALKING DOWN TO YOU!!!!" I may be a lot of things but "arrogant" isn't any of them.
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Thank you moebow for your great videos. I recently watched your release tips videos and worked on incorporating some of those ideas with good success.
Today, I stumbled upon this thread and just had to try the rotational draw technique when I got home. I'm a decent shot, but this was a real breakthrough for me in a number of ways. Most importantly: back tension. Previously, I -thought- I was getting proper back tension, but this technique showed me how wrong I was. It was not only physically noticeable in how I felt (instead of feeling forced, the tension felt natural, and I no longer felt like I might be cheating a bit by relying on my string arm's strength), but the tight groups I started shooting were proof as well.
And I sincerely hope you'll ignore any negative opinions about your videos. They are some of the clearest and most informative on archery I've found, and I hope you'll share more of your knowledge. Your efforts are very much appreciated.
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Arne:
Keep saying what you're saying. Please can take it or leave it as they like. If it works for them then stick with with it. If it doesn't then can try something different. I'm always looking for ways to improve my form.
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Arne, just keep doing what you are doing.
And hopefully other guys keep doing it too.
Answering questions, critiquing, analyzing and offering suggestions.
I've taken advice from you, McDave, Javi, wtpops, and the Form Clock.
Thanks to all of you fellow archers who take the time to help those of us who are asking you for help.
Where would we turn if you turned us away....
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Just saw your videos...good stuff Moe...where in Mn is that, John Jr's shop? I may be coming to visit this spring. Might have to come find you if thats ok lol. Have a few things I'd like to work on.
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Just saw the grandrapids archers on the wall lol.... guess that means its not John Jr's shop ;) .
Thanks for taking the time on the videos! Would love to hook up when I head 'home' next spring for an afternoon if you got a few hours.
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AkDan, I'd be very happy to spend some time with you if you get back here this spring. Stay in touch. It would be fun to catch up on AK events too. Lived there (North Pole) for 20 years.
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I live in north pole currently ;) .
Originally from forest lake mn area.
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Thanks for the video, I tried this drawing method today and can tell already I was working different muscles than I have previously.
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Very explicit insruction Arne.
Thank you!!!!!!!
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With practice and patients, this is what the information on this forum has done for me,
What this picture does not show is the wind blew the leaf sideways, I concentrated used the tips I relearned here and the above picture are the results so far.
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h477/njloco/IMG_1693.jpg)
This is the view from where I stand sometimes to practice, sorry couldn't get this photo to down size but it's about 18-20 yds.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Thanks, for giving your time to help us!
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Moeboe, Excellent video.
Even though the video subject dealt with rotational draw, I couldn't miss the release.
The release appeared to me to lack fluidity such as a method of attempting to learn a full dynamic release. The release seemed not to be engrained and natural, thus losing focus on the target and bow arm while attempting to immulate a full dynamic release. The release should be naturally fluid as the bow arm remains stable and bow forces are directed towards the target.
Much more focus IMHO should be on the the bow arm and target and the release should be natural. The inconsistant bow arm movement revealed this observation.
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Excellent video. Made a world of difference in my alignment. Can't thank Moebow enough for this one.
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Moebow,
Tried the rotational draw technique when I got home from work. I'm shooting 8 to10 yrds in my garage. After practicing it for a while my groups really were reduced in size. Could feel it in my back muscles. Probably will be sore tomorrow.
Thank-you for the advice.
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Moebow,
very interesting I havent been able to practice this yet. I am recovering from carpal tunnel surgery. Could you comment on how this technique works or changes, if say, shooting from a treestand when you are having to bend at the waist? Are the mechanics the same. Also I tend to cant the bow alot more and lean over the bow, if that description makes sense when shooting on the flat. will this method translate to different degrees of canting or is it for a more "upright" stance. Thanks in advance.
Mike
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Mike,
What you see here is A way to find your back tension and alignment. I do show it in an ideal situation which is a great way to learn the technique. Once you learn the feel you want, then applying it to less than ideal situations is pretty easy. Once you learn the feel of the arms and shoulders and how your back is working, then you will be able to achieve alignment in just about any situation. How you get to the alignment and back tension is less important than getting it. It is just that at the beginning if you take all the extraneous variables out of the shot, it is easier to learn. It is very much a "walk before you run" situation.
Arne
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thanks alot can't wait to get back to shooting and give it a try.
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I have to say, when I first saw this I thought, "how can starting your draw with anything less than perfect straight alignment make sense?"
Wow, do I ever feel stupid for questioning this! It is truly amazing how that draw works into back tension AND good alignment. Thank you so much.
I'm a rookie and I was having a hard time "feeling" my back tension but not with this technique- you can feel the tension in your shoulder blades continuing through the draw. And the whole string rotate into you has helped with my grip and less bow torque on the shot.
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Thank you ALL for the kind comments! I'm glad that some of you are finding value in the suggestions.
There are two areas I've found that seem to be logical but really aren't. One is that we need to have the string out on our finger tips so there is "less finger" to get out of the way of the string. The second is that we need to have everything (bow hand, arrow, and string hand) lined up with the target at the start of the draw. Those of you that have tried the "rotational draw technique" are finding that by giving yourself the room to bring the string arm around your spine your alignment and back tension are improved once you reach full draw. Many "ills" can be reduced if we can get the draw out of our biceps and into our back.
Anyway, if you find the technique works for you GREAT! If not, just disregard it and press on :) .