Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Terry Green on October 02, 2011, 12:18:00 PM
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I am beginning to see a pattern continue that is not good for folks trying to learn how to shoot. Everyone is built different, and are mentally different. To make absolute statements and include everyone to one mandate is not doing the students wanting to learn any good.
I'm not going to get into all the absolutes I've been seeing here on this thread....but be aware, from here on out, if I see someone proclaiming an absolute/only one way/must do this way.....I'm going to call BS.
Not trying to be an A$$ here, but trying to help folks find their way. My way is NOT the best for everyone....and neither is anyone elses. I'm on one end of the spectrum, and my friend Jason Wesbrock is on the other. It would be a train wreck if he was FORCED to start shooting like me, and I like him. We both have our own way an style that work for our make up. One common thread between us?....proper alignment and accuracy....all the rest is as different as night and day....and that's OK!!!
We all need to find what works best for our individual make up, and we need to put the pieces of the puzzle together for ourselves and not have other's forcing a piece that wont fit.
Again, I'm glad we have so many hear wanting to help....but lets remember...there's more than one way to skin a cat....and we really don't know the entire make up of those wanting to learn to skin the cat....he might be the one figuring the trajectory to the moon, or the one flying the rocket....lets don't let them switch jobs at blast off.
:campfire:
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Great points Terry and this should be stickied to the top as a disclaimer of sorts probably.
I advocated in a thread yesterday for folks to seek a qualified coach/instructor to learn "one on one" from. There's no substitute for having a qualified coach fit the proper basics to your physique. Your threads/pics on proper alignment are great.....how one gets there, and where/what a shooter uses for anchor/draw check points is purely individual.
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I agree 100%. There are just too many variables for any one way of anything to work for everyone. Find what works for you and practice it.
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Thanks Green...I cannot tell you how many folks have emailed me over the years....NOT just to thank me for my input, but for THIS forum and all the input from others as well.
Some folks will never be able to have a coach, and some say you shouldn't try an lean from the internet. Getting a coach is always great to get you started, but for those that can't for what ever reason, please do not discount the power of the internet. Again, I cannot tell you how many folks over the years have learned to shoot, learned to shoot better, and found the missing link right here on this forum.
And I do believe this is the most civil shooters forum on the net with hardly any total bias, self proclaimed professionals, an my way is the highway types, and folks arguing over 'the best way'. Folks contributing here do generally have the best interest in helping folks, and I'm very thankful for that.
We have worked hard to keep it that way, and set a precedence very early on that that type of stuff would not be tolerated here.
And, I'm not singling anyone out, there's a lot of folks here with a wealth of knowledge, just trying to keep the forum on course, and keep it beneficial for folks on both sides of the spectrum and those in between.
:campfire:
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what shooters have to remember is the basics of form, string grips, bow grips, you stance, and solid anchor. there can be countless anchor points too. you need to get the basics and get in your yard or range or basement and shoot shoot shoot. try different methods till you find what feels best and is most accurate with you and your body type. and practice till you become one with your equipment. i think to many guys are looking for a golden answer to get them busting nocks off at twenty yards. find your style and practice like you need to and it will happen. :archer2:
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I agree Terry....before I found a local coach in Mike "Javi" Cooper, I learned so much from this forum, and was very fortunate to get some very, very good coaching from 1100 miles away via Moebow's open offer for help and extensive communication and encouragement. There are other qualified members who can/will do the same thing for other members as well.
There is so much good information in this forum, as well as throughout TradGang for members to take advantage of. I can 100% guarantee that the information available in this forum has provided me with the resources to seek out and become a far better and more knowledgeable shooter. The helpful attitude of the qualified coaches/instructors who frequent this forum is far more valuable than words can relate.
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So I need to show my credentials to comment? I'm not trying to stir anything up...but if someone asks a valid question not directed to any one person in general, I will try to help them. There are certainly more than two qualified individuals here.
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MoOse, that is the point of T's post. There are a lot of shooters here with tons of knowledge to share. BUT-other that concentration and proper alignment there are many variables. Just because I don't shoot 3 under doesn't mean I can't shoot. Likewise if I tell folks that shooting split finger is the only way, I would be wrong. I guess some posters may have been taking the "my way is the only way and if it isn't like mine it's wrong" standpoint and in turn confusing/frustrating new shooters. Mike
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I agree there is no one way.. to do anything. :)
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No moose, this has nothing to do with 'showing credentials...not sure how you read that into it.
Like Mike said....when someone says split finger is the best way to shoot.....that is not true....it certainly is for ME....but might not be for someone else.
Like someone saying Gap is more accurate. ....again, it might be for THEM, but not EVERYONE....same with saying instinctive is more accurate....that's not true either for everyone.
Like saying 'the only way to XXX is to do it this way". If someone says that, I can list a dozen ace shooters that do it another way.
Like saying 'this is the only way to draw the bow'....no it aint.
'Must hold vertical, ...You can't cant the bow the same way twice'....Oh yes you can, and you can cant it all sorts of ways and be accurate if you want to.
Please don't read any more into the original post....it was not intended as a slam on anyone....just hauling in the reigns a bit.
Believe me....I am very thankful for this forum and the folks that post here....you wont find another one like it on the net....I just want to keep it that way.
:campfire:
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Man Terry I wish you had posted this about 6 years ago when I was trying to learn how to shoot. I tried my best to emulate what I saw other people doing when they shot "lights out"(including you) and it wrecked my shooting for nearly 2 years. Everyone has their own style and they have to find it for themselves, it may be a mixture of 5 different ways they've seen and it's up to them to discover. We can all agree on the basics (form, good release, and consistency) but after that it's up to the individual.
Thanks to all the moderators/supporters for doing what you do to keep this site what it is...
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Thanks Terry !!!!! That is some of the BEST advice ever posted here. I have, and continue to learn from a lot of different posters here. I give things an "honest chance" and they either work for me......or they don't.
We are ALL different, and I agree, whole-heartedly.
Winterhawk1960
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Great thread. It's always helpful when someone is able to say WHY they think something works well for them, because it might not apply to others whose, size strength, vision, mindset, etc. are altogether different.
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Absolutes are the reason I don't usually get involved in the Internet coaching I see on forums like this, absolutes are also the reason I resigned from the NAA/US Archery as a coach... I refuse to believe that every archer should be cut from the same mold. That may be fine when taking kids and training them from birth to be automatons but it usually won't work with adults who have formed bad habits and aren't nearly as supple in mind or body.
A coach should build on the strengths and work to correct the weakness of their students not mold them into their idea of the perfect archer... The end result should reflect the students goals not the coach's.
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It seems that in archery the act of shooting is an art more than it is a science -- and that any proposed absolutes have exceptions. Good post, Terry -- and a good reminder to all of us that respect is still the primary attribute of TradGang. And being respectful might just include admitting that absolutes are few and far between.
Joe
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Shooting a bow is a game that's been around for a long time and has been tried by millions.
Take a look at another game that's been around for a long time, and has been tried by millions - hitting a baseball:
Check this out: http://youtu.be/bQStxZJX7bI
If there was one best way to hit a baseball, all batters would do it the same way. However, in hitting, as in archery, the end result is what counts. If a guy looks like a spastic chimpanzee at the plate and hits the ball out of the park a lot, guess what? They let him keep hitting it out.
Both acts have a huge mental aspect to them, and mental approach is very subjective and thus different for everyone. It's about how things feel TO YOU. There are fundamentals, but so long as you operate within the framework of the fundamentals, you can succeed in many different ways. Some people have more talent for it, and some people have less, and if you have less, there is probably not a scientifically repeatable way for you to equal what the greatest shots/hitters can do.
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Terry I understand Archery has many styles with even more form choices but dont you think this post will stifle free speach on this forum, I can see a lot of people feeling very reluctant to post on certain form topics for fear of crossing some unseen line you just created. How is that going to help people solve form issues or learn anything new?
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I don't think Terry is trying to discourage anyone from expressing their opinions about shooting issues. Rather than someone saying something like, "this is the proper way to do (whatever)," say "this is the way I like to do (whatever)," and I think you'll be fine.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
I am beginning to see a pattern continue that is not good for folks trying to learn how to shoot. Everyone is built different, and are mentally different. To make absolute statements and include everyone to one mandate is not doing the students wanting to learn any good.
I'm not going to get into all the absolutes I've been seeing here on this thread....but be aware, from here on out, if I see someone proclaiming an absolute/only one way/must do this way.....I'm going to call BS.
Not trying to be an A$$ here, but trying to help folks find their way. My way is NOT the best for everyone....and neither is anyone elses. I'm on one end of the spectrum, and my friend Jason Wesbrock is on the other. It would be a train wreck if he was FORCED to start shooting like me, and I like him. We both have our own way an style that work for our make up. One common thread between us?....proper alignment and accuracy....all the rest is as different as night and day....and that's OK!!!
We all need to find what works best for our individual make up, and we need to put the pieces of the puzzle together for ourselves and not have other's forcing a piece that wont fit.
Again, I'm glad we have so many hear wanting to help....but lets remember...there's more than one way to skin a cat....and we really don't know the entire make up of those wanting to learn to skin the cat....he might be the one figuring the trajectory to the moon, or the one flying the rocket....lets don't let them switch jobs at blast off.
:campfire:
Glad you said something about this, I've known my form hasn't been right for years but I seemed to hit OK out to 20 yards(softball sized groups) 3 years ago I went broke and lost all my archery gear. I just got it back and decided to get serious about my form and really tuning my arrows correctly, I watched your videos and a bunch on YouTube about proper form and a good release and although my form has improved a 100% now I can't seem to hit diddly. I find myself focusing on my form and then aiming which I don't think I really did before. I use to just stare and burn a hole where I wanted to hit, draw the bow and when I hit anchor(whole other story)it was gone. I was also bent at the waist a little with the bow canted doing this and now am standing straight up with the bow straight up. I won about $300 one night hitting beer caps at 15 yards with some co-workers at $5 a shot. Am pretty frustrated right now but know it's just a matter of time and 1000's of shots till my form is not a thought any more and am back to aiming like I use too. I know the posts you are talking about and always thought the poster was pretty arrogant. There is always a proper or a technically right way to do anything in life and then there are those folks who break all the rules and just seem to excel at it and then all the techno folks will tell them you can't do it like that. I use to play a lot of baseball in my youth and pitched sidearm my coaches had a fit and tried to break me of it, I listened but could never pitch overhand like I could sidearm, they finally gave up on it caused what I did worked and they didn't have anyone better. Same when my teachers tried to force me to write right handed when I wanted to write left handed. My 2 cents is if it works for you stick with it and do it over and over and over til you don't even think about it anymore. The only reason am trying to change now is I've never been able to shoot past 20-25 yards worth a crap and know it must because of my form and know if I fixed my form til it's second nature I'll be able to shoot out to 40+ yards which is my goal.
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I agree with Terry 100% and would sight the example of Fred Asbell's advise in all of the books he has written over the years. After he explains how he goes about any particular part of the shooting process he almost always finishes with the statement that this is not the only way to do it,but it is the way that works best for him. I have always respected him for saying that and at the same time it seems to make it easier to give his advise a try knowing that it does not have to work for me but it might.
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Mike I've been on the tourney circuit many years and seen people with very good form but not so great shots and people with average form shooting great results.
My experience is that Form is just one small part of the whole shooting package, having good nerves under pressure, strong focus, a good feel for distance whether it be just looking or ranging with various methods etc, they all play a part in making a great shot, some Archers have an even balance across the board while others are very strong with something like their focus and makes up for weaker areas.
Work on the weak areas but also identify and keep building on your strengths.
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What if we add this diclaimer at the end of every suggestion... YMMV (Your mileage may vary) lol. :D
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Javi, you nailed it. I am so thankful that we have all these good shooters doing things so many different ways. I read, think about it, try it and most of it helps. All of them seem to have some things in common and those are the important ones. The rest is negotiable. I coached a youth Scholastic Clays skeet team. I can take a kid who has never shot before and teach him the basics. He will start breaking birds and get excited and want to better. Pretty soon he's better than I am. I watch and see whats working for him and leave him alone with that. If I see him struggling with something I can sometimes get him "running again". Other than safety, I stay away from the "this is the only way" type coaching.
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Good Advice here. I feel like my shooting style is the "One"......for me :)
I make my living in the sporting goods industry and talk with compound shooters several times a week who express an interest in learning to shoot traditional well. My humble advice to them is to become a student of traditional shooting styles. Many styles and techniques are at their fingertips in this age of the internet. Study and try yourself and you will settle into a style that works for you.
Many years ago a dear friend taught me his style of shooting. He was a deer killing machine but it just did not work for me. I just did not realize it until years later that there was a better way out there.... for me.
An example of this is my friends Curt(Guru) and Terry Green. There style of shooting is miles away from mine and just does not work for me BUT I have picked up little things from them that has really helped.
Another example is my son Skyler. I taught him my style of shooting but His style has evolved into something totally different.
Just keep an open mind....Learning is a never ending process.
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I certainly have "an" opinion of what right looks like, but having said that not everyone is trying to win a national or world championship and that is okay. When I go to a shoot I study people as they shoot. You can learn a lot from just trying to figure out what is causing a guy to struggle. The most common thing I see is inconsistency and the key to success is consistency. If you release differently, anchor differently, don't have a solid bow arm etc. then your arrows will also fly "differently." Whatever you do, it must be the same each shot and only practice will do that for you.
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I would just add one more thing. What a coach usually does is identifies those things that are inconsistent and shows you a proven way to shoot that enables you to be more consistent in your shot process. Over the years that seems to have narrowed down to a common way of shooting, with some slight variance, which has been termed proper shooting form. However, when you look at how Coach Lee and Coach Kim teach you will see a very different yet successful approach to proper form.
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It's all in the style of coaching. Command types like to dictate without listening to any input and stand by their opinion whether right or wrong. Sometimes they will back themselves into a corner. :) .
Cooperative styles seem to work the best where there is input from all parties involved.
Submissive style is basically a baby sitter style.
I thouroughly enjoyed studying Coach Woodman's style. Even if someone has no interest in coaching, I would suggest reading up on Woodman.
Javi, I am kind of surprized by your statement. Surely there are those who want want to keep the same mold for each individual, but in my experience they are far between.
Most of the coaches that I know are very open minded and will flat out admit that archery is constantly changing and evolving, they will admit that they don't know everything there is to know, and will admit that no two individuals are alike.
I guess that if the point of this thread was to warn us not to become so entrenched with our own style that we feel it is necessary to dictate our opinions and stand by them without taking others individual differences into consideration or their opinions, then I am with you 100%. :thumbsup:
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Terry, good post. Over the years I have learned a ton from this forum and I really appreciate the efforts of you and the other moderators to keep everyone on track. I certainly have had to filter through all of the great information, advice and know-how available here to find what works best for me - and, yes, some of what I read and try works well for me and some not at all.
I can see, though, where a beginner could read some of these threads and become overwhelmingly confused, so I applaud your efforts to try to prevent some of that confusion.
For me the most important basic element of shooting is shoulder alignment. If I get that right, everything else seems to fall into place.
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Ranger B. I would be very curious to know, since you completely changed your style of shooting over the last couple of years from the self bow to a more modern approach, if you have at any point gone back to a self bow and implied any thing that you have taught your self or learned, and seen if you had improved your shooting ability with the self bow? Just curious?
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Terry,
Thank you for that very much needed reminder! I am a novice and tried several different styles, but in the end I pretty much adopted a little bit from everyone. Yes, I shoot with my elbow high. I will continue to shoot like this because I feel comfortable doing so and also my ring finger is not at all bothered by it.
Good luck to the rest of the novices on here. There is a ton of extremely helpful information. Like Mr. Green says were all different in many respects and it is up to the individual on what style or form variations we adopt. Be yourself, use what works.
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Originally posted by zetabow:
Terry I understand Archery has many styles with even more form choices but dont you think this post will stifle free speach on this forum, I can see a lot of people feeling very reluctant to post on certain form topics for fear of crossing some unseen line you just created. How is that going to help people solve form issues or learn anything new?
Posting absolutes....don't you think that stifles the free speech of others?...and cause other's to feel reluctant to post due to they may feel they will offend the 'absoluter' or the 'absoluter' taking them to task? Now you tell me how absolutes are going to help solve form issues or help folks learn anything new???
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It would be like trying to tell Lee Trevino to swing a golf club the same as Jack Nicklaus...won't work. But getting that club face square to the ball at impact and following through to the finish of the swing is absolutely necessary to a good shot. I think this is true of archery. Now how you get there can be done by different paths.
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Terry DIDN'T say don't give your opinion on trying to help somebody out. He simple said do not say their is one way of fixing a form issue.
Example- I'm shooting left???
User one- Your moving your bow arm. That is the solution to your problem.
NO!!! It MIGHT be the solution but you could also be torquing the bow string, alignment, ect.... All Terry is saying is don't say "This is the cause, blah blah blah" You can voice your opinion on what it might be! Don't just say their is one way of solving the issue, or say that your way of shooting is the only way and the right way! It's right for you but not somebody else. Snag has a perfect example.
Another example is Terry's shooting compared to Rod Jenkins. Both are excellent shots, Terry is a "snap" shooter and Rod "isn't". Terry has said that Rod said, he doing the same thing just a lot slower. You will never see Terry telling Rod he is shooting wrong because he holds the string longer. Many different styles, aiming methods, and causes of error in archery. So we have MANY MANY different solutions. Voice your experience just don't say its the ONLY way to solve an issue.
I think this is a very good post Terry. Thank you!
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I agree with snakebit40 to the extent, that anyone when I was shooting competively, that was beating me, I listened to their advise and tried it to improve. If that did not work, I would try something different until I found what did work for me to beat those individuals. Let's keep the doors and mind open with due respect to each others styles and let the individual sort out what is right for him. But not offering will give the one that is asking no where to go, but continue to not improve.
I have never had a problem suggesting something to someone or showing them the way I do it. If if works for you fine, if it don't that's fine too, but I would never suggest to keep doing it until you do it my way or don't do it???????
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Originally posted by Ranger B:
not everyone is trying to win a national or world championship and that is okay.
Exactly....AND, every national champion did not shoot exactly the same way.