Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: gonefishing600 on November 19, 2011, 07:43:00 PM
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If you had to narrow it down to one thing, what would you say has made the biggest impact on your shooting?
For me, it would be adjusting my draw weight down to a more comfortable weight. In the beginning, I was caught up in that macho thing, and was shooting bows in the 60 and 70# range, which was really to heavy for me. I could shoot them, but after months of practice, my accuracy wasn’t really progressing like it should.
Once I realized the problem, I had a hard time accepting it, because I had several thousand dollars tied up in bows and arrows, and also admitting to myself I had made a huge error in judgment. When I did finally did accept it, and realized I had to make a big adjustment, I sold all my bows and arrows, and started all over.
Now my bows are down between 45 and 50#, and it has made a tremendous difference in my shooting. I had to buy new arrows, and retune them to my new bows, but now due to my efforts, I became twice as good at tuning arrows to my draw weight as before.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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What has made the biggest impact? The qualified expert members that help folks in this forum.
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Learning to self-diagnose the errors I make. I still make the same errors, but it is so nice to finally be able to say to myself, "Oops, I'll bet I cupped my string hand on that one," or "I must have dropped my bow arm," or "I didn't keep pulling through the shot," and have that actually solve the problem rather than just shooting bad shot after bad shot and wondering why.
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Using a formaster to learn what fully engaging the back muscles felt like.
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Back tension. I still get poor shots but the good ones are really good. And I know what I did wrong on the bad shots.
JW
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I'd have to go with Green and McDave.
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"If you had to narrow it down to one thing, what would you say has made the biggest impact on your shooting?
Keeping my mind open enough to gain a working understanding of instinctive aiming and the willingness to give it a fair chance only to discover it actually works..for me..and not to think my way through the shot..but to "FEEL" my way through the shot...consistant form is up to me..where my arrow strikes is up to my instincts...as long as "I" dont interfer. :)
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Originally posted by Green:
What has made the biggest impact? The qualified expert members that help folks in this forum.
yep..much better answer than mine. :)
and?..THANKS ALL! :)
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over coming target panic and being able to control my shot. and having a bow i can handle weight wise.
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Reducing the poundage. I'm no spring chicken anymore, and have discovered that 45 lb. bows are perfect! What surprised me is that just reducing the poundage a few pounds, made a world of difference.
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glasses
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I'm pretty new to shooting trad but The biggest thing that has helped me and at least doubled my accuracy quickly, was learning to anchor and then touch my nose to the feather like what some on here have said is what Rick Welch teaches. It made me shoot much much better.
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Joel Turners and Jay Kidwells segments from MBB4.
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My biggest thing was when I started using the push release and pulling through with back tension.
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Tradgang shooters forum, Terry"s clock and Moebow's videos.
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Not giving up when my shooting isn't at it's best
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After my post for the appreciation of the members and Terry who help so much on here I think the single biggest factor was asking for help. After 42 years of shooting "uncoached", I wanted to get better.....much better. Terry, Arne, and then Javi's coaching "in person" helped to make that happen.
Sure wish I hadn't waited all these years, but when I had to put my bows away in the late 90's, resources like TG and the Shooter's Forum weren't available yet.
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Reading and applying what I read in Byron Ferguson's book, "Become the Arrow". That was the turning point of my trad archery shooting experience. In a few short weeks after reading that book, my shooting improved dramatically. Then, I continued to improve even more after joining and reading posts on Tradgang.
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Arne's rotational draw video, MBB 3, and little tidbits from the Howard Hill thread have helped me a lot. I really wasn't using back tension until I began to use the rotational draw technique. Larry Yien and Rod's part of MBB also have lots of good info. The Hill thread had some pointers on grip with the Hill style bow. All of these together have greatly improved my shooting and I appreciate everyone who helps here on the shooters forum.
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Originally posted by gonefishing600:
If you had to narrow it down to one thing, what would you say has made the biggest impact on your shooting?
I would say my coach/mentor.
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self-diagnoses for me...Understanding what I did, to get this..helped a ton.....
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Follow through after the shot-
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Just because you draw doesn't mean you have to shoot.
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practice
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Getting my right rotator cuff repaired. Shoulder surgery really slowed me down for a while but now I'm shooting better than ever.
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1. Like Fred Bear said...."The hand does not leave the face."
2. If I think I'm having control problems and shooting before I'm ready, I found a trick that helps me......I deny myself the shot.
Try it sometime. Draw an arrow back, get the sight picture just right, concentrate. ....Hold ...Hold....Hold....Hold
Then slowly let up while maintaining the sight picture. Deny yourself the shot. You went through all that work to pull the bow back and didn't get the reward of watching the arrow fly.
Guess what...The world didn't end.
If you do this a few times you will gain control of your shot sequence. you will be able to release when you want to instead of triggering by motion and time alone.
It works!!
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Spending a weekend with Len Cardinale.
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Triple anchor and back tension , yeah I know that is two but they go together .
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Although I dont use it now, a clicker started all of my improvements.
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Finding a local coach to watch and critique my form. Along with watching videos whether on internet or buying DVD's
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Strength. More strength for me is more control. The solution to that, for me, is working up in bow weight, not going down to make it easier.
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Two days with Rod Jenkins...
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Dropping down in weight with a bow meant to improve form. Only way to learn proper form is when you can perform the shot without any stress. Light bow weight allows you to master your form, improve confidence and you can only go up from there.
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Learning to come to full draw by equating shooting my bow to shooting a rifle. I have to thank the Push Release dvd for that.
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Green and Arne helped me sooooo much! Rotation for back tension... Thanx guys
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Trying and implementing some of the good tips found in this forum.
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Proper Alignment by far....it cures a LOT of problems.
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Dropping bow weight, consistently hitting my anchor in the same spot,fine tuning the split vision method of aiming.
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I agree with Joe. I dropped my weight and it help to focus on my form and my anchor.
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Confidence. Believing that the arrow is going to go into that exact spot you're looking before you ever take the shot. Hard to do when you shoot goups, and alot easier when you only take one arrow to the range.
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Originally posted by huntmaster70:
practice
+1
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The masters of the bare bow series.
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i would have to agree with green
im new and all of you guys n gals here are the #1
reason im even hitting the target
so i would like to put a big
THANK YOU ALL out there
b44mag/brad
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3 under with a high anchor
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Watching MBB111 and then dragging Rod Jenkins over here to OZ .
Originally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
Just because you draw doesn't mean you have to shoot.
Jim ... what are ya talking about mate ? Do you mean that there are people who can actually let down after drawing ? I don't believe it ..... :saywhat:
Seriously , Jim kinda hit the nail on the head with that comment . Learning that I CAN take control of my shot ...
Not quite there yet but getting there slowly .
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3 anchor points for me!
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I agree with Green. There is a lot of great information about shooting here on TradGang.
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What McDave said. I still need help on knowing what went wrong with the shot. I would like to see more posts on how to do that.
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Originally posted by pumatrax:
glasses
HA! They do help, don't they!
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Shooting with crazy accurate world class compound shooters has brought my form, focus and endurance @ 100# go through the roof. My accuracy has improved and I have a cheering/jeering squad that celebrates my tight groups and gives me a ration for bad shots. It's a crazy pace to keep up with, but I like my progress curve.
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Developing the muscles to handle a bow comfortably and dropping my bow weight by 10 lbs.
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PRACTICING WITH ONLY ONE WELL TUNED ARROW.
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The single biggest item that contributed to my shooting improvement? That's easy: A COMMITMENT TO EXPERIMENTATION.
Archers come in all sizes, shapes, ages, degrees of physical conditioning, levels of hand/eye coordination, etc., etc.
What works for one person (or many) will not work for others.
EXPERIMENT . . .
Try split finger, 3-under, 2-under, etc.
Try anchoring all over your face: on an eye tooth, under your cheekbone, under your eye, etc. The only real requirement is that your anchor be reproducible every time.
While avoiding a death-grip on your bow, experiment with everything right down to a "shaking hands with a baby" grip.
Try bows with a high-wrist, medium-wrist, low-wrist, and extra low-wrist grips.
Experiment with a pull-through release and with what's commonly called a "dead release."
Try recurves of varying lengths, draw-weights, and design. Same for longbows.
Play with wood, aluminum, and carbon arrows. Vary their weight and maybe even their length.
Ask other archers for advice but don't commit to something because it works for them. It's what works for YOU that counts!
This all takes time, lots of it. But that's part of the fun of archery.
Mark
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Probably drilling into my head "Aim small, Miss small" and then really focusing on that or putting it into practice when I shoot.
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Knowing when its time to quit....
Seroiusly. Once you're butthurt and just poking and hoping, you're just learning bad habits that take years to break.
I shoot my Schafer daily in my singlewide. Maybe a dozen arrows at a time... But I do that 2 dozen times a day.
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Originally posted by hookster:
Tradgang shooters forum, Terry"s clock and Moebow's videos.
X2
Also Jay kidwell's "Instinctive Archery Insights"
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The Shooter's Forum and special thanks to T.Green and Moeboe. After years of pretty clueless shooting, finding this site resulted in immediate improvement for me.
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Just giving it another go with trad equip. here but best resource BY FAR is this site and the search function
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Establishing my anchor point.
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For me it is paying attention to Pierre and J.P.
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bob wesley
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Multiple anchor points and solid bow arm
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Follow through-not dropping my bow arm
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Practice.
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A whole host of stuff; but eliminating all movement just prior to release has really boosted my accuracy.
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A clicker, without a doubt. It was the one piece of the puzzle I was missing.
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Shooting at 3D shoots and stump-shooting with friends who were better than me. I was able to kick back and watch some excellent shooting and learn a ton every weekend, J
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I too would have to say the single biggest factor for me would have to be the Shooters Form Forum. In particular Terry, Curt, McDave, Rod Jenkins, and Batman all helped me tremendously. I posted a video a couple years ago and the response was quick, clear and spot on! I learned more in one week than I had in 3 years of self diagnosis/learning and trying to make it all make sense. I enjoy Moebows posts/videos as well.
Thank you so much for this forum Terry! I think I may post another shooting vid up soon to get somemore feedback!
Travis
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Focus on improving bow arm stabilty.
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double anchor and SQEEZING my back muscles like a trigger on a rifle.
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learning that theres no such thing as too much true back tension!
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Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
learning that theres no such thing as too much true back tension!
Care to elaborate on that? You've got that 2004 IBO title. I'm just a guy that finishes 3rd to 5th at local shoots...
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watching Rod Jenkins' segment in Masters of the Barebow 3 and then committing to shooting the blank bale. Still a work in progress but definitely making positive changes for me.
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For me without a doubt it has been video taping myself from different angles and analyzing it over and over. It is a real eye opener and shows up a lot of flaws big and small. Especially if you mostly shoot alone. I have my work cut out this winter!
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Dropping down in bow weight....Not struggling with the draw or hold. Now all my bows are 52/55/57#.
Also, knowing when to stop practicing when getting tired. This will lead to bad habits that can be hard to break.
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staying in shoot keeping bow arm strong. along with a good clean release
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Masters of the Barebow 1,2,3 and 4.
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Moving up in bow wt.
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watching Terry's segment on aligment on the Bowhunter's of Trad Gang and putting it into practice, and then finding a solid repeatable anchor point (instead of what I though was solid and repeatable). My avatar pic shows what I was doing. I'm leaving it so I don't forget...
World of difference!
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Rick Welch, nuff said
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The answers I received to questions posted on Shooters'Forum made all the difference for me last year. So I'd have to say this forum was the one thing that truly helped me improve.
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Attending Rick Welch's shooting school.
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Originally posted by Keith Langford:
Rick Welch, nuff said
:thumbsup: X2 want to take his class someday..
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Slowing down my shot.
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Keeping my bow arm steady.
Still learning though. Next up is the video of my shooting and getting some knowledgeable people to look at it. Mostly I can trace any poor shot to my bow arm. Funny that idea of denying yourself the shot. Probably be a good thing in the end, but oh my, the frustration, which is the point...
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for me shooting spots at 3 to five yards which allows me to work on my release, keep my arm steady and follow through.
This keeps things automatic when shooting at 20-30 yards so the only thing i think about is the shot, nothing else
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Maintaining good back tension completely thru the shot
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Hitting your anchor on every shot...and remembering that shooting is FUN not work or practice
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Keeping it simple.
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I would have to say, using my back to pull through the shot.
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Not sure I could limit what success I've had, as sparce as some might consider it, to one thing but if I had to pick it would be immersing myself into anything and everything traditional archery by reading, listening, and experimenting. Some things work, some don't for me, but I keep an open mind. I picked up trad again after a 20 year hiatus and feel very lucky to be enjoying the accuracy I am this quickly. The threads and videos here, posts by others who were struggling, and the responses by the knowledgeable archers have often proven applicable, in whole or in part, to problems I may be having at the time. There's not much pertaining to form or tuning here on TradGang that I haven't read in the past few months and learning the tuning process for myself instead of having to take my rig to a shop all the time has given me a much broader working knowledge and the ability to recognize flaws and correct myself a lot quicker.
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three anchor points!
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As I am very new to shooting traditional the one thing i notice is i am much more accurate if i make sure i am standing tall. If i notice my groups growing it is usualy due to being too hunched over, in return, im not getting the full back tention i need and front side is slightly colapsed
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Practice, self-confidence and that funny little clock on the top left of this page :thumbsup:
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Consistant anchor and clean release.
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Beating my target panic!
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The Hanky method and the surprise release that results from my final expansion while continuing to maintain back tension.
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Arrow diameter reduction and concentration on keeping the arrow under my eye.
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Blind bale without a doubt. It helps me with form, back tension and my release.
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Overall, I had to completely rebuild my form. I knew it. Once I got willing, I understood that strength to pull the bow was paramount. If you can't control the bow...you can't execute a good shot. I wasn't willing to drop a single pound in bow weight. I spent a month shooting at 5 yards. 65# longbow...full draw...anchor...shoot. No concern on accuracy, and I mean that. I did nothing but form shoot and build strength for 3 solid months, always refusing to pay any attention to where the arrow hit.
I got to where I could slow draw my 65# longbow to full draw and hold it. Clean release and follow-through. The funny thing was this: Despite steadfastly refusing to care where ANY arrow hit the butt, I found myself shooting 5-arrow groups which got tighter and smaller each week. I had to increase distance just to prevent crashing arrows. As long as I shot with 100% focus on form, the accuracy was automatically there.
I still follow this philosophy today. I shoot with a tremendous degree of confidence and control. I get ALL of my bow's power into the shot. I can slow draw on a moose or a whitetail, and feel no urgency to get the shot over with.
I'd like to also add this: An accomplished shooter once explained to me that he had no cares about his acuracy. Where the arrow hit did not worry him. It was simply a RESULT of his shooting. If it didn't hit where he intended, then he had to do something different. He was very analytical and unemotional about his accuracy. A complete miss would produce no negativity...just an acknowledgement that he had to work on his shooting form. He was the BEST recurve shooter I've ever watched, and I learned from that. I no longer shoot for accuracy or care where my arrow hits in practice. I just try to always use excellent form and forget the rest of it. I've never shot better in my life...never felt more comfortable with my heavier bows.
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Acquired a willing, skilled, competent, motivated and patient mentor of which I am committed to both listen- to and ardently strive to apply feedback during all shooting sessions.
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Understanding that nobody hits the target by trying not to miss.
Also if you aim for a rabbit's head you may miss. If you aim for the center of the rabbit's eye you will hit its head. :goldtooth:
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Re-adjusting my grip for sure helped me. Before I was holding the bow like I would grip the handle of a knife, but now after seeing several posts about the proper grip being the base of the thumb and keeping the handle near the lifeline and the thumb knuckle on the side of the handle it helped tremendously.
I was grouping to the left of the target consistently (hitting the shoulder and neck area of my 3d deer) and now the arrows are hitting where I want them to!
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Well, the one most important thing was dropping bow weight (to 45lbs). However, I watched some Rick Welch vids and started really working on developing a secondary anchor (I shoot split, though, so I don't use the feather to the nose thing) and consciously pausing at full draw. I also went to a vertical bow, which makes it easier for me to consistently repeat everything. Along with all of this, I went to lighter arrows (8-9 grains per lb. instead of 11-12 grns.); this made me much more consistent at longer ranges.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Overall, I had to completely rebuild my form. I knew it. Once I got willing, I understood that strength to pull the bow was paramount. If you can't control the bow...you can't execute a good shot. I wasn't willing to drop a single pound in bow weight. I spent a month shooting at 5 yards. 65# longbow...full draw...anchor...shoot. No concern on accuracy, and I mean that. I did nothing but form shoot and build strength for 3 solid months, always refusing to pay any attention to where the arrow hit.
I got to where I could slow draw my 65# longbow to full draw and hold it. Clean release and follow-through. The funny thing was this: Despite steadfastly refusing to care where ANY arrow hit the butt, I found myself shooting 5-arrow groups which got tighter and smaller each week. I had to increase distance just to prevent crashing arrows. As long as I shot with 100% focus on form, the accuracy was automatically there.
I still follow this philosophy today. I shoot with a tremendous degree of confidence and control. I get ALL of my bow's power into the shot. I can slow draw on a moose or a whitetail, and feel no urgency to get the shot over with.
I'd like to also add this: An accomplished shooter once explained to me that he had no cares about his acuracy. Where the arrow hit did not worry him. It was simply a RESULT of his shooting. If it didn't hit where he intended, then he had to do something different. He was very analytical and unemotional about his accuracy. A complete miss would produce no negativity...just an acknowledgement that he had to work on his shooting form. He was the BEST recurve shooter I've ever watched, and I learned from that. I no longer shoot for accuracy or care where my arrow hits in practice. I just try to always use excellent form and forget the rest of it. I've never shot better in my life...never felt more comfortable with my heavier bows.
I thought this needed repeating. :^) Fantastic stuff in there.
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Good stuff, great discipline!
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I have been shooting a longbow for about four years, but first started this post a little over a year ago. Since that time my accuracy has doubled in only a years time. I contribute that success to my passion for tradtional archery, which has given me great disipline that has again push me to become a better archer. I love shooting my bow!!
It's been tough to stay at it through thick and thin, through lifes trouble and still find the time to shoot. I have five kids, two business, and a loving wife. We as men, need our hobbies in order to keep our sanity, call it what you will, but you know what I mean!
Archery is a great skill, and just like every skill there is a learning phase, usually 3 to 4 years, journeyman, and then a new skill is born,. I read something several months ago that there's and old mongolian saying that says, forget about archery for a day, and it forgets about your for 10 days. I have found this to be true, I try to practice at least, every other day. Point being, it kind of like loosing weight, it needs to be a way of life to make it permanent.
Stay with it, tweek it, keep and open mind, study other archers, it will come. I don't know who invented this site, but my hats are off to you, thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Thanks
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Two things: 1) using a form master religiously; and 2) switching to a tab after using a glove for 30 years.
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Best thing I have done to help my shooting has been to take Rick Welches class. Also, paying attention to what some of the more experienced shooter on Tradgang have advised. I've learned a lot form Terry Green's and Moebows comments.
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Hands down the formaster. It has taught me how to pull through
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becoming ambidextrous improved my archery more than anything.refined my form by unilateral application.keeps the injuries away that come from one sided repetition.. and i'm always building strenght,progessing,and keeping the old injuries at bay.
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Shooting at 3 yards,
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There are two things of equal importance to my shooting.
First, was switching to 3 under from split finger. This has allowed me to anchor more cleanly and set my sight picture more consistently.
Second, was developing a consistent double anchor (middle finger to corner of mouth and thumb joint in the angle of my jaw). This gives me a solid, reliable anchor point, and has boosted my accuracy from "who knows where it went" to 4 inch groups at 20 yards. I am cross-eye dominant, so any improvement in anchor and alignment is a blessing.
***Another thing that has helped is Rick Welch's motto from his website: How far is that? Don't know. Don't care. This has made me trust my form and sight more, and more often than not, I hit near my mark!
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Kevin Dill said it, Jim Casto Jr. repeated it & its that way for me. Slow,determined practice and the results just come. This is why I checked out Trad Gang to start with. Some times I just need to start from scratch to make it new again. Lots of good thoughts here.
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Moebow critiqued my form and helped me fix four big errors. He opened my eyes to the importance of form.
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Understanding this:
You can't hit something by trying not to miss.
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The single best thing was attending Rod Jenkins clinic last weekend in Santa Fe. Best money I ever spent on archery.
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Rick Welch's class and taking good notes while I was
there.
Irv Eichorst
www.truesouthadventures.com (http://www.truesouthadventures.com)
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Rod Jenkins clinic
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Memorizing a borrowed Rick Welch volume II. Even the hog hunting parts......RC
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I don't mean to be rude but I stopped trying every new thing that came down the pike and reading so much. Everytime I would start to come into my own, someone came up with a new idea or reccomendation on how you should shoot and off I'd go. I settled on going to an archery school, learning that style, and then following it. In time, certain things developed and that style morphed a little to fit me. I guess what I'm trying to express is set yourself on a style and give it a chance. If some "expert" said stand on one leg, I'd do it. I never progressed cause I never gave any one style a chance to develop.
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A high wrist recurve.
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I've got injuries, as we age who doesn't?? Still, Ron LaClaire said stop saying you can't, and focus on doing what you want yourself to do. Combining that with continuing to learn and copy the little things H Hill did, I'd say I'm on the right path to continue progressing.
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I got instruction from Ben Graham (Hummingbird Bows) Ben taught me how to get proper form and to practice it.LCH
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Watching The Rod Jenkins portion of Masters of the Barebow vol 1 !
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I can't limit it to just one there were several things that made my shooting consistent and accurate.
Close up blind bale shooting with the eyes closed while focusing on nothing but a consistent, repeatable shot twenty five y years ago, didn't know what good form was then-Myself:-)
Picking a tiny spot
Alignment-Terry
Conclusion-Rod
Videoing my shooting
Re-discovering the the blind bale, I now shoot 85% of my arrows at three yards (with the eyes closed)
And contrary to apparent consensus, going back up in weight. I dropped weight and improved short term, but lost muscle tone/strength and found shooting 50# was just as hard as shooting 65# a few years before. After progressively rebuilding my strength, 65# feels like 50# did two years back.
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Reading and rereading the following thread:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=005155
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Switching to three under...then practicing 5 days a week for the last number of years. Pay CLOSE attention to your form when shooting....there...that's ONE....lol...
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Same as many people here (judging by the number of responses on his post, "Traget Panic Reality Check" if you haven't seen it, and struggle with shooting, read it) Joel Turner has helped me the most. He spent about 5 minutes with me and another guy at a shoot once, and his lessons have had the most impact on my shooting.
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Working with Arne Moe to develop my form and change many years of bad habits, plus dropping my bow weight.
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Hi!
perhaps matching arrows to my bow and style actually, but just this morning at close bale the "push/pull" practice again reminded me about how important that is: push/pull involved: better form --> tight groups and when forgetting p/p --> everything astray...
How I love shooting with my BW !!!!!
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Going to a lighter bow and shooting more.
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For me the thing was writing down my personal shot sequence.
1. Look at the target
2. Keep the bow armand extended toward the target
3. Set the cant
4. Put your body weight slightly on posterior feet
5. Push/Pull the bow until hitting the anchor
6. Check anchor (thumb knuckle to cheek bone, index finger to the corner of mouth, elbow high, head steady and slightly tilted like the cant in the bow)
7. KEEP PUSHING AND PULLING
8. Pick the smallest spot possible
9. SECOND ANCHOR: EAR
The string hand never leaves my face, it's like sliding along my face until the string slips of my fingers and the hand keeps moving toward my ear.
Release MUST be aligned with the string and shooting line. Forearm must be aligned with the arrow and shooting line.
If I'm hitting to the right (I'm lefty)I cant the bow little bit more, this fixes it without changing my form.
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Arne's Videos (Moebow) The rotational draw with a deep hook.
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Originally posted by DennyK:
Arne's Videos (Moebow) The rotational draw with a deep hook.
Could someone post a link to these videos?? Please. Can't find it now! :knothead: :help:
Thanks
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Here it is SKITCH.
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1
Arne
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Wow. That was fast!! Thanks Arne!!!
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Skitch, I starting using the rotational draw/deep hook in early January and I'm just now getting to the point that it feels really comfortable. My point is don't rush it, break Arne's vidoes apart slowly and watch them several times. It does take work, but it is very much worth it.
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Thanks Denny. Ill keep that in mind. I've heard such great things I think it's time to work on it!!
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For me it was after taking Rod's clinic that I am able to do what Mcdave describes....being able to analyze my own shooting issues.
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Not pulling too much wt. And when I have an issue I back off of shooting and try to think my way through it.
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Coach Arne's good advice on proper form, I did it all wrong for the first 2 years. Of course all the great folks and advice here in the "Gang"!