Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: tsissar on November 28, 2011, 06:38:00 PM
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I have 50 pounds self bow and I shoot wooden arrows. I don't think I can get more than 20-22 yards of a straight shot aim. Anything after 20 yards and I need to correct the aiming by tilting bow up a and shoot with the "overflight" trajectory. Is this the common thing? When I started shooting this bow I was under impression that 50 pounds bow should be able to shoot wooden arrow for at least 30 yards with straight aim. Am I wrong, or my bow sucks?
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No....your bow doesn't suck....sound about right.
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Hm, ok, than I guess I suck since I only shoot 50 pound bow :-).
What kind of yardage people get on a straight aim with the heavier bows: 65, 70, 75, 80 pounds?
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I think you need to study up on ballistics a little. All arrows fly in an arc. The heavier bows you mention with proper weight arrows will have about the same trajectory as you see with your 50# bow. If you mean "point on" by your "straight shot aim" phrase, that depends on your anchor position on your face far more than the weight of your bow.
I suggest that you do a search here for gap, and various aiming methods.
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Originally posted by moebow:
I think you need to study up on ballistics a little. All arrows fly in an arc. The heavier bows you mention with proper weight arrows will have about the same trajectory as you see with your 50# bow. If you mean "point on" by your "straight shot aim" phrase, that depends on your anchor position on your face far more than the weight of your bow.
I suggest that you do a search here for gap, and various aiming methods.
Yes, I meant straight shot aim. One would think based on the common sense that 80 pounds bow will be able to cover "approximately" double the distance of the straight shot aim than the 40 pounds bow. Is that really not correct?
I understand that the farther I go with the anchor point on my face the more distance arrow will cover simply because I increase poundage of the bow. Which in my mind same thing as getting heavier bow :-).
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What you are really dealing with is time of flight, not necessarily bow weight or arrow weight. If you overdraw your bow a little, yes, you will increase effective bow weight and that particular arrow will fly a little faster so the time of flight is a little less. So that arrow will appear to fly a little flatter but I think you would be hard pressed to really see it. But an 80# bow shooting a 800 grain arrow will have roughly (but not exactly) the same trajectory as a 50# bow shooting a 500 grain arrow.
I'll repeat that your point on distance is affected MORE by where the arrow nock is located on your face (up and down, NOT forward a back) than by bow weight. And shooting an 80# bow WILL NOT double your point on distance.
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You would think that a heavier bow would shoot a flatter trajectory than a lighter bow, but a heavier bow requires a heavier arrow, which partially offsets the effect of the heavier draw weight. I've heard that you can generally expect higher arrow speed for a typical bow and arrow setup until the bow reaches about 60#, with not much if any improvement after that. The main reason people want to shoot a heavier bow is to gain increased penetration when hunting.
I also understand that the average bow weight used by an Olympic archer is about 39#, and they are shooting at distances around 100 yds. They shoot very light arrows, of course.
Any arrow starts dropping the moment it leaves the bow, when shot level to the ground. When you say "straight shot aim," you probably mean whatever elevation it takes to hit the target at 20 yards or so, which may seem pretty straight compared with the elevation it takes to hit the target at 50 yards. If you hold any bow, of any weight, at the same elevation it took to hit the target at 20 yards, it will hit low at 25 yards.
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Originally posted by moebow:
What you are really dealing with is time of flight, not necessarily bow weight or arrow weight. If you overdraw your bow a little, yes, you will increase effective bow weight and that particular arrow will fly a little faster so the time of flight is a little less. So that arrow will appear to fly a little flatter but I think you would be hard pressed to really see it. But an 80# bow shooting a 800 grain arrow will have roughly (but not exactly) the same trajectory as a 50# bow shooting a 500 grain arrow.
I'll repeat that your point on distance is affected MORE by where the arrow nock is located on your face (up and down, NOT forward a back) than by bow weight. And shooting an 80# bow WILL NOT double your point on distance.
Agree, heavier bows offset by the heavier arrows, I just didn't think they get so much offset :-(.
Can you elaborate on your statement: "I'll repeat that your point on distance is affected MORE by where the arrow nock is located on your face (up and down, NOT forward a back) than by bow weight. And shooting an 80# bow WILL NOT double your point on distance."
When I was shooting split finger I used point finger at the corner of my mouth for the anchor. Now that I shoot with three under, I use middle finger to touch corner of my mouth. How can I change my anchor to have farther straight sight shot?
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Originally posted by McDave:
You would think that a heavier bow would shoot a flatter trajectory than a lighter bow, but a heavier bow requires a heavier arrow, which partially offsets the effect of the heavier draw weight. I've heard that you can generally expect higher arrow speed for a typical bow and arrow setup until the bow reaches about 60#, with not much if any improvement after that. The main reason people want to shoot a heavier bow is to gain increased penetration when hunting.
I also understand that the average bow weight used by an Olympic archer is about 39#, and they are shooting at distances around 100 yds. They shoot very light arrows, of course.
Any arrow starts dropping the moment it leaves the bow, when shot level to the ground. When you say "straight shot aim," you probably mean whatever elevation it takes to hit the target at 20 yards or so, which may seem pretty straight compared with the elevation it takes to hit the target at 50 yards. If you hold any bow, of any weight, at the same elevation it took to hit the target at 20 yards, it will hit low at 25 yards.
Yes, yes, agree, however, I've seen heavy compound bows (70lb) that shoot straight sight - without tilting bow up, from 50 yards. I thought bow is a bow and no matter if it is compound or stick you need to use heavier arrows for heavier bows, that in the end offsets bow poundage. Seeing those compound bows put the idea in my head that I need a heavier bow to shoot longer distances without tilting bow up.
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Here is a little "elaboration" for you. You say you are now shooting three under with the middle finger in the corner of your mouth. That will put the nock of the arrow at a certain distance below your eye. This will give you an apparent point on distance of "X" yards. Now if you use the index finger in the corner of your mouth instead of the middle finger, this will put the nock of the arrow a finger width lower on your face below your eye. Since the nock is now lower, you will perceive a point on distance that is farther out than before.
You seem overly concerned about "tilting up" but that is really what you are doing by changing the vertical nock location on your face. Split finger will give a range of nock placement still lower on your face and an under the chin (target style) anchor lower still.
I believe from your questions that you think that each shot should have the line or point of the arrow on the target to be hit but this doesn't work very well as you are discovering. For most of us, there is ONLY one distance where we perceive that point of the arrow on the bull's eye. For all shots less than this distance we perceive the arrow to be lined up UNDER the bull and for distances beyond our point on range the arrow point will be above the bull.
To try to help with your question to McDave, The C bow shooters MUST use a different pin in their sight or re-set the sight for the distance to be shot. That too is changing the tilt" of the arrow so it will hit where desired.
Changing bow weight has very little effect on this!
Hope this helps.
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Yes, yes, agree, however, I've seen heavy compound bows (70lb) that shoot straight sight - without tilting bow up, from 50 yards.
Any arrow shot from any bow of any draw weight will hit the ground in approximately 1/2 second if it is fired level to the ground from a height of 4-5' above the ground. This means that if an arrow is fired at 180 fps, it will hit the ground about 30-35 yards away from where it was fired. In order for an arrow to hit the ground 50 yards away, it would be necessary to fire the arrow at about 300 fps. In order for an arrow to hit a target 50 yards away if the target is the same height above the ground as the arrow was when it was released, without tilting the bow up, the arrow would have to be shot at approximately the speed of light.
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How far can I shoot without raising the bow? At my feet. :jumper:
Seriously. Maybe 10 yards. :dunno: It doesn't raise much, but gravity starts at the shelf and that arrow is ALWAYS under the parabolic curve of the effect of gravity.
From field 3-D archery I know I have to "aim" the point at the deer's feet to hit it at 40 yards. At 65 yards I am "point on" At 25 yards I aim on a spot six feet towards me from the deer's hooves; but up to that distance I am focusing on the deer's center-chest and shooting instinctively. IT WILL SCREW YOU UP to try and switch between instinctive and point-of-aim (it does me, anyway) so I don't do it for a month before or during deer season.
At 80 yards I am "aiming" for a spot about 12 estimated feet over the desired impact point. That's a whole lot of gravity in just 15 yards between 65 and 80.
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Originally posted by Stumpkiller:
How far can I shoot without raising the bow? At my feet. :jumper:
Seriously. Maybe 10 yards. :dunno: It doesn't raise much, but gravity starts at the shelf and that arrow is ALWAYS under the parabolic curve of the effect of gravity.
From field 3-D archery I know I have to "aim" the point at the deer's feet to hit it at 40 yards. At 65 yards I am "point on" At 25 yards I aim on a spot six feet towards me from the deer's hooves; but up to that distance I am focusing on the deer's center-chest and shooting instinctively. IT WILL SCREW YOU UP to try and switch between instinctive and point-of-aim (it does me, anyway) so I don't do it for a month before or during deer season.
At 80 yards I am "aiming" for a spot about 12 estimated feet over the desired impact point. That's a whole lot of gravity in just 15 yards between 65 and 80.
What is the longest/farthest distance did you successfully hunt and kill the game?
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If you take two bows that perform exactly the same....one 40#s at 10 grains per pound....and an 80# bow at 10 grains per pound...you should have the same speed and trajectory.
What you gain is a LOT more penetration from the 80# bow and 800 grain arrow.
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Thank you guys for being patient with me :-). Appreciate all the help.
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I Don't know how long you are shooting Trad, but it's interesting that you ask what is the furthest shot someone has taken game, though I have been back to Trad for a short time I would want to know what is the closest shot someone has been able to take.
Nothing wrong with your question, mind you, just interesting.
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Where in CA are you located?