Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: CLICKERMAN on February 21, 2012, 12:15:00 AM
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Hello All, :knothead: Thanks for reading,
Joel Turner
Masters of the Barebow 4
2x World Elk Calling Champion / Pro Division
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Joel,
OUTSTANDING post AND OFFER!!!!!!!!!
Folks, listen to the man and take him up on his offer if you need too. Try the "conscious shot process and subconscious aiming". It takes discipline and desire to learn but IT WORKS!!!
Arne
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:thumbsup:
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Joel,
Thanks for this post. I have had target panic for the last 15 years. Last august I bought the MBB series including 4 after a bad round on a 3d course with a friend. I was already using Dr. Kidwell's drills from his book and went to work using your shot activation process. I can honestly say it has made the biggest difference in my shooting of anything I have tried in the last fifteen years. Distance seems to be a trigger for me. The tp really flares up when I shoot at 20 yards or farther. I was quickly shooting with control at 35 in my backyard. I thought I had it licked until I started shooting an in-door 3d league this year. My first time shooting a league. My shooting fell apart. After reading your post I went back and watched MBB4 again today and sure enough I was thinking about and anticipating the feather (psychotrigger) and not thinking about pulling. In my shooting today I was able to get it back under control. My last arrow was a bullseye at 28 yards. Sometimes I do release before the psychotrigger. Is this detrimental or is it ok if that occasionally happens? I am eager to try this approach at the league shoot this week.
Thanks,
Gary
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Great stuff Joel! I have watched your segment on MBB IV many times. I have been a clicker user for 20 years now, and thought I would never get rid of it.
I have to say that your system is the only thing I have seen that sounds "doable" for me! I am planning on giving it a go as soon as I can get someone to help me with my feather location.
Thanks again for some great info. I may program your # into my phone just in case! :jumper:
Allen
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Flingblade,
If you are letting go before the feather, you are still thinking about the feather!!!! You need to really analyze what you are thinking about during the shot. Especially those shots that do not go as planned. When you are in tune with what is going through your head, you are well on your way to controlling your thoughts and concentration. If you let go before the feather, you are reinforcing the natural habit of getting rid of the bowstring too early. Your goal is to be able to realize the thoughts in your head are not where they should be and LET DOWN!!!!!!! Do not shoot bad arrows!!!!!! You are in a mental battle everytime you shoot your bow. You are fighting the subconscious gremlin that wants to get rid of the tension in the body. The mantra, "Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling..." is your weapon against the gremlin.
If you shoot a bad shot, ask yourself these two questions: What was I thinking about during that shot? Was I saying the mantra? Your honest answers will get you back on track. The mantra will trap the conscious mind in the muscle group that your are activating, but it only works if you SAY IT!!!! Only shoot the shot if it is going to be perfect, not perfect in result, but perfect in concentration. When you go to the range, if you want to get better, don't practice just shooting, practice concentration. Practice getting your mind right during your shot. It is not, how well did I shoot today, it is, how well did I concentrate today???? If you concentrated well, your shots will fall in the middle.
Please keep the questions coming,
Joel Turner
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As good as your segment on MBB4 was your phones gonna be busy LOL!!! I'd like to learn more about this "tab sear" if I could :thumbsup:
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Yohon,
PM or call me for an explanation of the Tab Sear, and yes, the phone has been busy!!!! Keep the questions coming everyone.
JT
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Thanks a lot for that thread Mr. Clickerman!
Your first post is like a description of my problems.
When shooting with clicker, everything is fine.
Without clicker the gremlins are back after a while.
So I have a lot of work to do. I´ll get that DVD soon.
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Joel,
Thank you so much for sharing the information and for helping me to identify the metal script for my shot activation.
Jeff
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I have worked hard for nearly two years following the Cadinale/Jenkins method of building a shot sequence. I’m doing great too—almost there. The theory is (or so I thought) to get the form down until “it” becomes a subconscious act, with the conscious mind immersing, or completely engulfed in aiming.
Your method seems to be the polar opposite—subconscious aiming with the conscious mind dedicated to form.
So…. my question is, how do you aim at the subconscious level?
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Joel can explain it, but when he told me about it last night on the phone, I had the same reaction. This is the opposite of what I have been told.
It is flip from the current philosophy that aiming is a highly conscious act and the subconsious controls the mechanics of the shot.
The idea is to give you something in your thoughts that leads you to a surprise/unconsious shot execution and a mental focus on those thoughts everytime for every shot.
Joel I am sure will be along to explain. It is interesting.
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Thanks for the excellent post. I saw your segment on MBB IV, which was also excellent by the way, and your post adds a complementary addition to it that explains the concept even better.
I've been struggling with TP for awhile myself, able to keep it in check from time to time during backyard practice, but I fell apart towards the end of a 3D shoot session this past weekend and my poor score sure reflected it.
Anyway, I switched to LH shooting a few months ago when I injured my right hand. My hand is fine now, but I've kept up with LH shooting just for fun and noticed I have no TP shooting lefty. I can hold and aim forever if I want to and actually shoot better LH because of the target panic that tends to pop up shooting RH. Is this some kind of right brain hemisphere vs. left brain hemisphere psychology going on? Or is it that in time, the subconscious will also learn to shortcut the aiming process shooting lefty like it did when shooting RH? I'm hoping it's not the latter.
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Thanks Joel! I shot about 40 arrows today and only two were released before the feather. Much better for me and I will be 100% tomorrow.
My shot sequence; draw to anchor, aim (set up sight picture) start the mantra and keep pulling until the feather touches the nose and release. My question is what should I be thinking about during the draw and aim portions? Once I start the mantra I think about pulling but what about before that? In a pressure situation I think this is where I am having trouble as there is a moment at anchor when I am setting up the sight picture before the mantra is started and the gremlin says release as soon as the sight picture is there. My gremlin is a quick little devil and it only takes a few shots like this before I can't get to anchor. Should I be thinking about pulling at this time as well?
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One thing that help me in curing the TP along with a clicker was learning to shoot in my head. When I had TP bad I always invisioned myself short drawing and releasing before I was ready. Now that ive got my shot down I can draw and hold in my head. Ive never been so confident in my shooting as I am now. I always read Joel and Dennys stuff. Its great to be able to shoot totally TP free! Now if I could kill something :(
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First to Jim Casto Jr.
Aiming is much more simple than people would have you think. Your subconsious is always looking for symmetry. This is why your eye will always be drawn to center of whatever object you are looking at. Your mind has seen your sight picture thousands of times and it knows whether it is right or not. It doesn't matter what aiming system you choose, when your mind gets the proper sight picture for that distance, all you have to do to keep that sight picture is "WATCH IT". Just like on the dvd, if you hold an arrow out in front of you and place the tip on a spot, it will move in a very erratic and minute pattern. No matter which way it moves, its next movement is ALWAYS back to the center. How did you do that? All you did was watch it to keep it. The movement is too minute and unpredicatable to see which way it is going next. Concentration (conscious mind) put towards aiming, does not make the aim better or make it move any less. It moves for everyone and it doesn't get better with time at full draw. When I draw back, my aim is done in less than a second. Once the aim is done, I turn my concentration to my shot activation through the use of my mantra. The subconscious is running many systems at once, balance, breathing, bow grip, and especially aiming. If allowed to also run the shot activation, enter the gremlin, and the shot activation will begin to be shortcut. So to answer your question, and I realize it is against some mainstream coaching, to aim with your subconsious, get your sight picture and then just LET IT DANCE!!!! Thinking about aiming will not make it better or move any less. I applaud you for sticking with that system for two years, but in my opinion, if you apply what you have learned those two fine instructors in regards to form, and then employ the mental mechanics of subconsious aiming and conscious shot activation, your improvement will be instantaneous and forever. I am afraid that your are working against your mind and that is a tough road my friend. Please call me so I can solidify some concepts for you.
JT
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Ed Q,
Switching to the other side has changed what you think about in your shot. You need to analyze what you are thinking about when you shoot left hand vs. right hand. If you are thinking about the right thing during your shot, target panic will not creep in. However, if you are running left handed on auto pilot (subconsious shot activation), the gremlin will show up again once he learns the shot. If you talk your way through each and every shot and say the right things to yourself, target panic will never happen. But remember, the mind does not like to have the body in tension and it employs the gremlin to get rid of that tension. If you are shooting well left handed, you need to understand WHY that is. To understand the WHY, you need to know what is going through your head at full draw. You could shoot with either hand if your mind is right. If this is too vague, I can speak a whole lot faster than I type, so please call when you can.
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Flingblade,
When drawing the bow, think about drawing to anchor, by saying "Draw". Once that is complete, think about the aim by saying "Aim". Once the initial sight picture has been completed, watch it to keep it. Let it DANCE!!! Then switch the concentration to pulling by saying "Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling..." Remember, whatever you say is where your conscious mind will go. Under little stress, you will probably find that you don't have to say "DRAW" and "AIM", but under stress, saying those words will put your conscious mind into those actions. Just don't forget to switch to the pulling mantra when you want to activate your shot. It is talking yourself through a shot, one task at a time, if the stress is high. It is like a mental checklist, switching the conscious mind from one task to the next through the use of speech. It always baffles me how connected the conscious mind is to speech. Talk yourself through each and every shot, and know what thought is in your head so intimately that you can let down if the concentration is not right.
JT
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I think I have finally figured out the Tab Sear. I have been shooting with Joel for many years now. He is an amazing shot. He is usually the only guy to beat me at shoots so I strive to better myself using his methods. I tried the clicker first but was using very heavy bows up around 60# and they would kick my butt. I have since dropped down to the low 50's. My problem with the clicker and pulling the feather to my nose was that I would come to anchor and when I would start to pull I felt that I couldn't. I seemed to be locked in place.
So I changed a few things the other day. I have been having problems with my ring finger on my string hand. It has been locking up on me when it got cold out and all I could bend was the very tip. I got a new Bateman tab and then I tried a deeper hook past the first joint. I then had to lower my anchor down a little lower so it would fit on my face better. I feel much stronger now and with the tab sear I can hold anchor and don't have to feel like I am pulling as much and just keep pressing the sear until it goes off. I just need to adjust my gaps but think it will help. Maybe I can finally beat Joel in a couple of shoots.
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What's a 'tab sear'?
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Thanks a bunch, Joel, for taking the time to take our calls and post on here!
What you said makes perfect sense regarding shooting LH vs. RH. Since LH is still a little awkward for me, I keep telling myself to implement proper form, i.e., draw correctly, keep bow hand correctly, keep draw elbow aligned, etc. And since I'm right-eye dominant, I tell myself to focus on my left-eye, thereby forcing myself to maintain hold and full draw, and tell myself to line up the left eyesight with the target and point of the arrow.
I experimented with what you told Flingblade while shooting RH last night and found it works perfectly if I can discipline myself to tell myself the similar things I tell myself while shooting LH. When I consciously tell myself "aim, aim, aim" while at full draw, similar to what I do when I tell myself to line everything up correctly when I shoot LH, I no longer have the premature release, and my shots are right on target! It's just a matter of making sure I do this each and every shot.
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Ed Q,
One of the problems with using aim, aim, aim is you are telling yourself to do what you are trying consiously not to do. BTW: I have used that mantra in the past and it worked for awhile, but did not last once my head figured out how to shortcut the shot process.
If you focus your thoughts on form, like "keep pulling" or "push elbow" I think that is what joel is talking about. Self-talk that directs us to the result of an unanticipated release of the string.
Aim, Aim, Aim will work for a while, but that mantra might lead you back into a panic due to overaiming. You have changed one of the stimulus, but the subconsious can figure that out and begin to focus too much on aiming.
This is a real shift from the common way people have learned about overcoming TP. The words we say in our head to ourselves have significant meaning to us.
This idea is getting the archer "thinking" during the shot about the process of a perfect shot. It gives a mantra, or mental script, with less emphasize on aiming. Overaiming and "trying too hard to hold it on" leads to target panic. Allowing your subconsious to aim is more relaxed to me in the short time I have been using this.
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X2 ON WHAT IS A TAB SEAR
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This is a really interesting read. I've had target panic for over thirty years, and have tried just about everything, to no avail. Shooting is very good with a clicker, but I melt down on animals, so that didn't work. Short of going to left-handed, I went to a release aid and I can once again get to full draw and aim. Even with the release aid, I still flinch once and awhile, but the string is locked in by the release, so I can recover or let down. I would love to one day return to the control I once had, but thirty plus years of fighting it probably has that negativity pretty deeply ingrained. Good luck to those that can make it work. You have my greenest envy!
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Joel I have to ask ive been shooting a clicker for 4 years straight now ( I shot the 3-D course without clicker and did great!) I had a problem where I would meet the string instead of drawing the bow to me. Should I adjust the clicker so its where I pull the bow string to me? I find its harder to make it click this way because ive always shot meeting the string with my face. But I feel like my old way is making my draw a 1/2" shorter. Thanks sir!
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Knobby,
Your problem is virtually the same as everyone else's problem. I would like to talk to you and analyze your shot. I may be able to give you some advice that will give you total control over the shot of your dreams. My phone number is in the first post of this thread. Looking forward to chatting with you.
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2 Blade,
You should have to make a conscious effort to pull fairly hard until the clicker goes off. If you are thinking about the clicker and when it is going to pop, you are not thinking about pulling. Your concentration has to be focused on the movement that gets you to the pop of the clicker, not on the clicker itself. That concentration is focused through the use of the mantra, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling... The mantra is based in Neurolinguistic Programming. You are essentially telling certain muscles to do certain things. If you practice the mental mechanics of subconscious aiming and conscious shot activation, you will find that you will come through your clicker much quicker. You will probably find that you will need to lengthen the clicker string. There is a fine balance between not have to pull hard enough, and having to pull too much. You will have to find that point in your back muscles. To really find that point, however, your mind must be right and the concentration is on the pulling.
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Clickerman, don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to be rude, but is there a special reason, not to answer the question:
What is a tab sear?
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Hello All,
I am getting alot of response from many of you and I truly enjoy bringing some sense into the chaotic world of target panic. Up to this point, those that I have spoken with and the posts that I read on this site and others all have very similar problems or symptoms of target panic. Isn't it amazing how similar the symptoms are in archers. Also, isn't it perplexing how so many archers have target panic.
The shear number of archers suffering from target panic and the similarity in the symptoms tells me that it is a human mind issue. Our brains work in very specific ways throughout the species. If we figure out how the brain works, the solutions are equally as similar. I have told each one of you that I have spoken with the same exact things. Those things have been the mental mechanics of subconsious aiming and the use of Neurolinguistic Programming to activate the shot. In addition, we have incorporated the use of a non-anticipatory psychological trigger. These are very fancy words for talking yourself through a shot and pulling to a goal. These things have worked for every archer that I have spoken since I developed the Mental Mechanics program. The results have always been instantaneous because I change the way an archer thinks during the shot. The system goes right along with the mechanisms of the brain instead of fighting it. I believe that is why it has worked for everyone that has the discipline to follow the program. Like I said before, shooting well is a choice. You can choose to practice true concentration, or you can let your autopilot (subconscious) run the shot for you. But remember, the autopilot is a madman that doesn't like to hold on target, or come to full draw while aiming at a spot, he likes to get the tension of the bowstring off of the body. The choice of true concentration through the use of a mantra, makes the shot robust and unaffected by stress. It is a tangible tool to use in your time of need when the crowd is watching or the buck of a lifetime is standing 24 yards in front of you. The subconscious autopilot only wants results and the only way he can get results is to shoot the arrow by getting rid of the string. To gauge your shooting by a score means that you are stuck in the results of the shot. It should not be said, "I shot well today" It should be said, "I concentrated well today"
Because of the response I am getting from all of you fine folks. I would like to start doing some shooting schools to really solidify these concepts in a hands on, one on one arena. Please let me know if there would be any interest in such a school. It would be for those that want to gain complete control of their shot and truly experience what it feels like to actually shoot to the potential of the mind. I would think that would be everyone!!!! The school would incorporate bow tuning and set up, the mental mechanics of the shot (target panic solutions), and scenario based stress training for concentration practice. The archer would leave the school with the mental tools to prevent any further bouts with target panic and an innate knowledge of how to concentrate under stress.
As for the tab sear that many of you are asking about, please pm or call me for an explanation. I am not trying to be all secretive about it except for the fact that I am trying to develop a patent for the invention. I would be glad to speak with you about it but I don't think an open forum is the place for protection purposes. I know that sounds bad, but this thing works so well, I think it will have a profound effect on the archery world, so I apologize in advance for not talking too much about it on open forum.
Thanks for reading my ramblings.
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TJ69,
I just sent you a pm. Sorry for being rude, just being a little protective I guess.
My apologies,
JT
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Joel, I think a school for target panickers like us is a great idea.
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Joel,
I have considered taking a shooting class with one of the other coaches out there but have not as most have never had or have very little experience with target panic and tp has always been the biggest stumbling block in my shooting. So...yes, I would be interested in your shooting school if one can be arranged for us middle easterners. I will give you a call about the tab sear. And you should be well compensated for techniques or inventions that help beat tp so I wish you best luck in obtaining a patent.
Thanks,
Gary
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Dragonheart,
Didn't even see your post til now while reading through this thread again. Thanks for the helpful tips on how to properly use the mantra. I'll see if I can incorporate what you said into my regimen, as I'm determined to beat TP.
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Ed Q,
Our words are so meaningful to us. I believe that part of the manifestation process of TP is in overaiming. Aim, aim, aim as a mantra may just leads us back down the same trail. Thinking pull, pull, pull or whatever that may be that works for you to get to the conclusion of the shot may be a better mantra.
For me it is push, push, push. Those words activate me to push my draw elbow around and thus activates the proper back muscles for a perfect shot.
Over time shooting a bow we begin to try to hard, to be over precise in our aim. This leads to an increase in metal tension, anxiety about the shot. John Schulz stated in his video that Howard Hill said "if your forms right, you won't be too far off at 50 yards".
What do you have to do to hit the spot? Point (aim) in the direction of the intended spot and shoot a repeatable shot execution. I really like what Joel is talking about. A process focus of our thoughts on the action it takes to get to the conclusion of the shot. We are not so engrossed in aiming that we create an overwhelming amount of tension in an already tense person under the strain of drawing a bow to full draw.
Just like our bowarm, drawing hand, and bow grip needs to be consistent, a sameness to our cognitions need also to be present. Just my thoughts, no pun intended :p :D
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Quick update. Last week I started a thread called Stage fright tp as I had just shot a 137 out of a possible 300 at an indoor 3d league. I only got to full draw once out of 30 arrows. I had been using Joel's system for several months but had fallen into the mistake of focusing on the feather rather than the pulling action. Tonight I shot 244 out of 300. My best score yet. I followed Joel's instruction and said to myself draw, aim, keep pulling, keep pulling, etc. until the feather touched and the bow went off. I was amazed at the difference in control from one week to the next. Out of thirty arrows 23 were good execution wise and only 7 went off before the feather. Next week my goal is 30 out of 30. For those with tp; me thinks Mr. Turner's on to something here!!
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Wow, what an improvement. I am very aware from my past indoor days that level of improvement in score. Way to keep that discipline up. What are you thinking about during the shot, that is the key Joel is really turning us onto. Awesome shooting and improvement!
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Way to go fellas!!!! Remember that the ultimate goal in your shooting is know so intimately what is going through your head during a shot, that you can recognize an interuption in the concentration and LET DOWN. If you shoot a bad arrow, you MUST ask yourself two questions before shooting another arrow. 1. What was I thinking about during the shot? 2. Was I saying my mantra? Honest answers to those two questions will get you to really start to analyze your shot. When you know what going through your head, you are well on your way to controlling what is going through your head. Once we have mastered concentration, we have to test the system. You have to seek stress in your practice sessions so that you can practice your concentration. Just shooting arrows to get better is a misnomer. One perfect shot with perfect concentration is the name of the game. Keep up the good work and stay in touch.
JT
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Joel,
Thanks for taking the time to talk with me. There is no doubt I've been trying to cure my TP issues by practicing the very thing that gave me TP! I think most guys are doing the same thing. The moment you started explaining the shot activation I knew you had the solution!!
I used your "Tab Sear" concept to completely anchor and shoot 20 arrows in a row last night without an early release. No anticipation!! Nearly unheard of in the past four years! I've got a great trigger idea that will work for me as a result of our converstation.
Thanks for taking time to talk, to post, and make yourself available. I've got to make some adjustments to my shot to fully utilize the "sear" concept. After that it's time to start adding the stress shots.
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Molson,
Please call me, I would like to hear of your idea for the sear system on a glove. Keep up the good work. Remember, your concentration is on the action that gets you to the psychotrigger, not on the trigger itself!!!!!
JT
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dragonheart,
Thanks! I was thinking about pulling the bowstring back further. I guess at times I was thinking about my back muscles contracting, at other times I was thinking about the arrow sliding across the shelf or my finger moving slightly back from my anchor. The last one was one of the problems I had at first as I wanted to maintain anchor not move back but I am over that now. Not sure if it is right but I let myself think about any aspect of pulling the bow back as I said the mantra. I just wouldn't let myself think about the feather and Joel is right; if you're not thinking about the trigger it is easier to pull and you'll reach the trigger more quickly.
Gary
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Joel,
I like to bowfish in the spring and the shooting is usually fast and furious snap shooting with a bare shaft (no feathers). Is this shooting going to undermine the progress I have made using your shooting system or is it possible to go back and forth between the shooting styles depending on the situation at hand? Also, have you made shots on animals that were walking using your system? I have never liked bleating or making a sound to stop an animal as I feel this just makes them more likely to jump the string?
Thanks!
Gary
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Hello All,
I said that I was wanted to protect the Tab Sear concept, but I have received some very good advice on the patent process and it sounds like it would not be worth my while.
So here it is. I created the Tab Sear after realizing that those archers that were really at the top of the heap (Professional finger shooters) were not using a clicker. Some of them are what I would consider an anomaly, a person that can draw and hold on a target with no shot anticipation. Those people are very few and far between, people like Byron Ferguson, Addington, and Eagleton. The rest of the folks, instead of using a clicker on their bow, use a clicker on their tab or at least in their hand. The professionals that I studied are not stickbow people, but rather pro finger compound shooters.
When using a clicker in the hand, the archer is able to use muscles that are totally uninvolved in the shot. In other words, they don't have to pull extra back tension and add outside influences into the shot, yet they are getting the benefit of a surprise release. There are a few contraptions out there that people have come up with, but they have been extremely secretive about their design.
The Tab Sear is named as such because it works on the same concept as a trigger sear in a firearm. Two surfaces are pulled apart until they disconnect. Here is a simple drill to see the concept. Take your pinky fingernail and put it underneath your thumbnail on the same hand. Now press your thumb towards your palm very slowly. You will notice that the pressure will build and then, all of sudden, the pinky nail will pop out from under the thumbnail at some unpredictable point. That, my friends, is a perfect non-anticipatory psychological trigger!!!! So I took that concept and put a small metal plate on the back lower corner of the tab in the proper angle and length so it sits where my thumb rests at full draw.
I simply draw back and aim, when my aim is done and I give it away to the subconscious, I hook my thumbnail on the tab sear that is connected to the tab. When I want to activate my shot, I concentrate on pressing the sear towards my palm at a rate that is slow and smooth. Exactly the rate that you would if you were pressing a trigger on a firearm and attempting to get a surprise break on the trigger. I am saying to myself, Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing... until the sear disconnects from my thumbnail. When the sear pops out from underneath the nail, it is my psychotrigger to release the string. Again, you are not thinking about the sear, you are thinking about the action that gets the sear to pop. The release of the string is instantaneous because the sear pop is the "GO" signal.
Folks, I have tested this system extensively under extreme stress and I have found it to work flawlessly. I have harvested several big critters with it including a bull elk and bull moose last year with my longbow.
Tournament scores have skyrocketed, but more importantly, control of the shot and group size has become phenomenal. It may sound like another gimmick, but the psychotrigger of choice is not the key, the mental mechanics behind the use of the psychotrigger is the true cure for target panic.
I am designing a tab right now with a sear on it that will be adjustable to the hands of most archers. Anyone know of a source of good Cordovan other then directly from Horweens?
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Gary,
I used the tab sear last year while doing some fast and furious bowfishing, worked like a charm. So I guess that answers the moving target question. I also used it on ground squirrels in Montana last year with great sucess on moving critters. If you are using the feather to nose technique and trying to transition to bowfishing with no fletches, you may want to put one vane or a portion of a vane on your fishing arrow in the alignment that hits your nose. That way, it shouldn't affect the underwater flight characteristics and you will be able to practice your concentration on moving targets, best of both worlds. If you can pull to your nose on moving carp, a whitetail will be a breeze. This is what I am talking about when I ask people to seek stress in their shooting so they have an opportunity to practice their concentration. Bowfishing is a perfect opportunity to strengthen your system. No reason to stop shooting perfect shots because the game has changed!!!!
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Clickerman I have read your explanation on the tab sear a lot of times over and I am still in doubt where and how you put the metal plate. Do you have a picture, a drawing or maybe can try to explain again in other words?
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I am not sure how to post pics on this site so if you would like some pics of the tab sear, please email me at [email protected]. I just took them but I don't see any way to post pictures. Maybe someone could tell me how to post some pics on here.
Thanks
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I "snap shoot" with my clicker to pratice for the quick shots its fun! I have to ask Joel have you pulled through the clicker on every animal that youve shot? Ive read some people cant do it when shooting at game animals. This to me says TP isnt cured.
Also if a Psycho Trigger is important how do Rod and Denny shoot without one? I read Denny uses his Rhomboid as a clicker but what about other people who pull thru the shot without a clicker?
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2Blade,
Since I figured out the mental mechanics, I have pulled through or pressed through (depending on the psychotrigger) on every animal. Some people don't do it on animals because of the stress involved in the shot. WHAT are you thinking about during the shot. During a high stress hunting situation, the mind wants to switch to results. Man, I really hope I hit this thing, ok, I've got to stop him in that hole in the trees, there's the shot, NOW!!!!! None of those thoughts will help you to shoot the perfect arrow under stress. I recommend that people put a little sign on their bow that says, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling... It acts as a reminder during the time of stress. If you are thinking about the spot you want to hit, the subconscious is then left to release the arrow when it wants to. It wants those results that you are thinking about and it will shortcut the perfect shot to get them.
To my knowledge, and I may be wrong, but Rod Jenkins now shoots with a clicker. At least I am told that he did at IBO Worlds. Denny uses his Rhomboid as a back clicker, but he has accepted the fact that it is an anticipatory psychotrigger. Both shooters have experienced and still battle target panic as most of us do. Only a handful of people in the archery world can truly say they have never experienced or battle with target panic. Remember, the mental mechanics are more important than the psychotrigger. The psychotrigger is just a convenient "GO" signal to tell the subconscious to release the string.
I am not trying to take away from people that are able to shoot perfect arrows without the use of psychotrigger, but those people are few and far between. They are the 1% and for that I envy them. Those that can shoot a shot like that under stress are even more rare. The mental mechanics is just a way to show you not only what to concentrate on during a shot, but HOW to concentrate.
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Joel,
Directions on posting images can be found in the FAQ link at the top. Thanks so much for being willing to help and share this information with us all!
Gary
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Originally posted by dragonheart:
Ed Q,
Our words are so meaningful to us. I believe that part of the manifestation process of TP is in overaiming. Aim, aim, aim as a mantra may just leads us back down the same trail. Thinking pull, pull, pull or whatever that may be that works for you to get to the conclusion of the shot may be a better mantra.
For me it is push, push, push. Those words activate me to push my draw elbow around and thus activates the proper back muscles for a perfect shot.
Over time shooting a bow we begin to try to hard, to be over precise in our aim. This leads to an increase in metal tension, anxiety about the shot. John Schulz stated in his video that Howard Hill said "if your forms right, you won't be too far off at 50 yards".
What do you have to do to hit the spot? Point (aim) in the direction of the intended spot and shoot a repeatable shot execution. I really like what Joel is talking about. A process focus of our thoughts on the action it takes to get to the conclusion of the shot. We are not so engrossed in aiming that we create an overwhelming amount of tension in an already tense person under the strain of drawing a bow to full draw.
Just like our bowarm, drawing hand, and bow grip needs to be consistent, a sameness to our cognitions need also to be present. Just my thoughts, no pun intended :p :D
Thanks a bunch, Dragonheart, for your time and generous insight in helping me with this malady. My initial TP caused me to struggle mentally with pulling back and reaching full draw without releasing prematurely. I think I developed this form of TP by beginning to aim at the outset of my draw and continuing to aim while drawing.
I've been practicing Dr. Kidwell's drills and have incorporated a different kind of draw that allows me to draw completely to full anchor without releasing by not aiming at all at the outset or during my draw. By doing this, I can come to full draw and hold. However, I've since developed a new and different kind of TP that mentally prevents me from lining up the tip of the arrow with the target. If the aim is high, I struggle to bring the bow arm down an inch or two for elevation purposes. If the aim is low, I struggle to raise my bow arm. I've found recently that if I use a mantra by telling myself to "aim, aim, aim," I can usually overcome the mental block and raise or lower my bow arm accordingly to adjust for elevation before releasing. Fortunately, I don't seem to have a problem with windage (left/right), just elevation. Should I instead use the mantra of "lower bow arm, lower bow arm, etc.?"
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Man great response Joel! Ive really learned alot from you guys from pics and reading I really feel like ive killed my TP! I just feel so relaxed and calm and I KNOW im gonna pull through everytime. I really feel like shooting with a clicker and your techniques will help anyone have an enjoyable TP free shooting experence. I know when I have kids or teach somebody new they will learn with a clicker from day 1 to ensure they dont have to deal with the TP bs. I couldnt imagine shooting any other way. Thanks again Joel and keep on clickin ;)
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Ed Q,
Please call me so I can explain your issue to you. It sounds as though you are thinking about aiming during your shot. This thought process will allow the subconscious to perform the entire shot activation process. That is not a good thing and will lead to even further target panic. It sounds as if you are using the proper sight picture as your goal and your stimulus for the release. Locking off target is a common symptom of target panic that is brought on by thinking about aiming.
The aim is only the first part of the shot, once it is done, you only have to watch the sight picture to keep it. Your subconscious will always find symmetry but you have to let it do that. The next portion of the shot is conscious shot activation. They are two totally separate and unrelated tasks for the mind.
Please, Please, Please call me so I can explain. It is way more simple than you might imagine. What Dragonheart is talking about are things that I explained to him in our conversation. I would like to get you on the right track so you can enjoy complete control of your shot.
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/TabSear2.jpg)
Here is a pic of the tab sear, more to come.
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/TabSear3.jpg)
Another pic
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/TabSear1.jpg)
And another!!!
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Ed Q,
One of the things I really hear from your post is a large significance still on aiming and being just right.
In my experience, you must first learn a form or style with no emphasis on aiming. Not sure where you are with that. Video helps a bunch for you to see what is looks like and you can relate that to what it feels like to shoot he arrow. Your movies don't lie, they are brutally honest sometimes.
If you can shoot and learn the feel of a perfect shot, that is key in developing your physical form. Joel's aspects are for the mental habits of a perfect shot, and a gives a mental routine for every shot.
How do you aim? gap? instinctive? What triggers the loose of the string for you?
Your mind (subconsious) can focus on multiple tasks at the same time. One analogy my buddy Nate Steen talks about is driving a car. You can be "zoned out" but still have an awareness of the speedometer, foot on the gas, lines on the road, steering wheel, etc. Getting the physical form of a shot pinned down I think comes first.
What do you want to look like at full draw? at followthru? at mid draw? etc?
I have always been fascinated by the archers different forms and how people can shoot well with multiple different styles. Bent arm, straight, slouched, upright, thumb up, thumb down, etc. All will work, but must have some sameness to be reproduced. Certain grips and types of bows lend themselves to being shot a certain style.
I understand the concept of not aiming until you get to full draw, but for me it does not work due to style (hill style) I shoot, and my previous manifestation (symptoms) of TP.
I can hold at full draw, but the TP problem developed. I got into freezing in the shot process and being unable to activate the shot. the clicker did that to me. I became so dependent on shooting off the clicker that I actually developed clicker panic. That totally sucks, believe you me! This is TP and lighter weight bows only made this worse, especially shooting at game animals. Not being able to let go with a clean release.
For me there is an increase in the intensity of concentration through the shot. Like a narrowing of the focus on a lens as I get to anchor. When my concentration is right, then back tension increase at the same time, and the unanticipated trigger activates the refusal to hold the bowstring and it is "down the pipe".
As a mantra I use "keep pushing, keep pushing" in regards to my draw elbow. If you have someone that does not understand which muscles to use in the back, have them think about to "push" their elbow on the draw arm back. This will activate the right muscles most of the time. Pulling at times people will use their arm strength, which is no way to draw a bow.
I have not used Joel's mental system long, but I tell you I am shooting much cleaner shots and getting to full draw. My release is a surprise. Joel has drawn out of me in a brief discussion the mental "script" for my self talk and cognitive habits for an archery shot. Pretty dang cool.
BTW: I do not shoot a clicker.
"lower bow arm" is a mantra related again to aiming not the process of getting to the unanticipated trigger.
Once aiming is done, what will get you to the loose of the bowstring without anticipation?
Joel explains this really well, give him a call.
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Joel and Dragonheart - you guys are awesome! Thanks a bunch for helping a trad brother out with this accursed TP malady!
Joel, thanks for offering to help me over the phone. I will definitely plan on calling you. I realize we all work and have busy schedules, so is there a day and time that's good or bad to call?
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Great post Joel. Tim
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Ed Q,
Call my cell anytime. If you don't reach me, please leave me a message. I am usually stuck in traffic and can chat the entire trip home which takes me about 1.5 hours to get home from work. I will hook up the bluetooth and we can chat. I will be able to get back to you by about 5 P.M. PST. Look forward to talking with you.
JT
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1.5 hour drive ??? holy cats. hope your gas is cheaper up there.
fantastic thread by the way. good luck in 2012
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Someone asked me if I'd looked at this thread, and I said no. I don't get into target panic chat cause I've never had it and don't want to.
But I will say this,...I shoot the exact opposite. I am totally immersed consciously into aiming, and my subconscious totally runs the shot. I'm aiming before I ever start drawing my bow.
Some of the best shots I've ever made at game I was so immersed in the hunt and the shot window opening, I don't even remember drawing the bow.
Interesting how some folks do things one way, and others do it in a completely opposite manner. I guess that's why we have folk figuring the trajectory to the moon, and other folks flying the rocket....glad they don't swap just before ignition.
No, I didn't read all the thread....after just a few posts....I panicked!!! :D :D :D
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I was shooting this afternoon and doing fairly well. Im finally starting to come around. I was almost done and then I thought of this thread. I drew back and settled in, then kept telling myself "keep drawing keep drawing keep drawing". Just when the feather hit the tip of my nose, the arrow was gone, all the time I was focusing on the small spot I was hoping to hit. I was fairly close but I came all the way back where I wanted so that was more important to me. Tomorrow will be more practice. Makes me feel bad though that the bow is only 42#'s or so and I can only shoot about 10 minutes without it wearing me out. :rolleyes:
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Joel,
I would like to try the tab sear. Seems to me that the tab sear would be a static release and the feather to nose is a dynamic release. Did you have any difficulty switching from dynamic to static? One idea if you start making them is have 3 or 4 holes pre-punched in the tab so the shooter could mount the sear in the position that best fits their hand. I'll take a large 3 under when you get to that point.
Terry, You are well advised to avoid threads such as this being target panic free. If you see other archers that exhibit symptoms of target panic you would be well advised to activate your fight or flight mechanism as this disease is highly contagious. Your best bet is flight if at all possible as fighting just makes the gremlin stronger. Best of luck!
Gary
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Flingblade, You don't have to have a static release. You never stop with the back tension and when the sear goes off the release is instantaneous and your hand goes back. A static release is usually caused by anticipating the release and your muscles stop pulling because they know you are going to let go.
Chris.
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The tab I am designing has a slot cut for the sear to it can be adjusted in numerous different angles and positions. Just have to get my hands on some Horween Cordovan!!!!!
Well said CCH, you are right on the money.
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This has been a very interesting thread everyone. Thanks Joel for sharing your wisdom, and look forward to more info, etc. on this tab sear of yours.
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I second what Green said. I check this thread every few hours. Thanks everyone.
Bill
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I have had numerous phone calls so far. Please keep them coming!!!! The phone conversations have all been on the same thing, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT DURING YOUR SHOT????????? That is the key question that people need to be asking themselves. Until you know very intimately what is going through your head, you will have no way to control your thoughts. Only when you know what you are thinking will you be able to stop bad shots before they happen. Again, you have to make a choice in your archery life. You can choose to shoot perfectly concentrated arrows with the use of the mantra and a non-anticipatory psychotrigger, or you can choose to allow the subconscious gremlin to let the string go when he wants to. By perfect arrows I do not mean perfect in result, I mean perfect in concentration.
If you are in your mantra pulling to your psychotrigger and you have a thought towards, geez when is this thing gonna click, or when is that feather gonna touch, or when is my tab sear gonna pop, you have to be able to recognize that thought and LET DOWN!!!!!!! That is what I am talking about when I say, you need to know your thoughts before you can control your thoughts. If you are thinking about the trigger, you are not thinking about the movement that will activate the trigger, therefore, you will stop the movement and your thoughts will run wild. Trap the conscious mind in the muscle group required for the action with the use of the mantra, Keep pulling, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, if that is the movement that will get you to the trigger. If the movement is a press through the tab sear, the mantra is Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing... The mantra traps the conscious mind and puts it in the muscle group. The rate at which you say the mantra is the rate at which your muscles will move. That is why you say it in a revolving rhythm that is very smooth. What you say is directly linked to what you think about. Your psychotrigger going off should merely be a byproduct of your pulling, pressing, etc.
Your subconscious knows how to relax the fingers and release the string, give it the "GO" signal with the psychotrigger.
Once again, the pivotal point of any target panic cure is not the trigger itself, it is the mental mechanics that gets you to the trigger that is key. Many cures have been presented in the past, but people are only thinking of the cure itself, instead of what the cure does for the mind. If it does not separate the shot between subconscious aiming and conscious shot activation, it is only a patch and not a cure. If the cure still allows the subconscious to determine when to release the string, it is playing right into the hands of the gremlin. Once he learns the shot, he will shortcut the shot, that is why the "Cure" only lasts for a short time and is really only a patch.
Knowing what to concentrate on and more importantly, how to concentrate, will not allow the subconscious to determine the release point. When you take the gremlin out of the shot activation, the entire shot becomes very easy, repeatable, robust, and sustainable.
These are just some thoughts from the phone conversations. Keep the calls coming folks. Also be thinking about a shooting school that centers on these topics. If there are a bunch of people in an area that would like this information in a shooting school setting where the drills would be tailored to allow the shooter to practice the mental mechanics, keep me in mind. I am going to be shooting a commercial for the school in the near future.
Unlock the Shooting Mind,
JT
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This is one of the best threads on TP ever :thumbsup:
Your effort on helping me out is highly appreciated!
Ronny Margly
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Guys I dont try to brag but since ive learned to shoot backtension with a clicker I have 0 TP. It was my fix and does everything I need it too. I hope you guys get to this point to be in full control. Shooting is so much more fun when you know you will reach full draw everytime and pull through the shot consistently. Im living proof that TP can be beaten. I feel like I could kill anything :D
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On a sidenote I do actually stutter hence my signature. I believe its my Social Anxiety and that also cause my TP. I know I can beat TP so ive been trying to think of a way I can have something else to think about while I talk so I wouldnt stutter. Ive yet to figure out anything because it pops up everyday. I can say I shoot better then I talk, no guff.
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Joel, Thanks for the discussion we had the other night. It certainly helped, as I was able to shoot "panic free" last night at our indoor league. (And I've battled TP since 1979!) I shot some arrows with a clicker, and others by using the feather-to-the-nose method. Never flinched once with either style. Was I tack-driving accurate? Nope, but I'm not concerned about that right now. The fact is, I was able to get to anchor, aim and pull through the shot for the first time in decades. I would completely recommend that others take your suggestions.
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Thanks for the kind words folks. It does my heart and mind good to know that there are a few more archers out there that have conquered the demon. Good work to all. Call if you have questions.
JT
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I took Mr. Turner up on his offer and gave him a call last night. He was very generous with his time and talked with me (I should say I listened) for over a half hour. He asked me where my problem was in my shot sequence, and then proceeded to give me his thoughts. I can assure you that he in NO WAY discounts the necessity of good form and building a consistent shot sequence. He simply adds another step between maintainable state and conclusion. It appears to be nothing more complicated than occupying the mind with a mantra of “keep pulling” at a critical time in the shot sequence for those of us who suffer from this demon.
I listened, went out in the garage, stuck four arrows in my pocket and proceeded to do exactly as he suggested. I shot a dozen arrows. I failed miserably on the first, but the next 11 were as near perfect as I have shot in the last two years. I put the bow down and went back in the house to ponder what had just happened.
Am I declaring victory? Hardly. Is it a quick fix? Don’t think so. I’ve spent the last two years learning and building a shot sequence. It is what it is, and is as I described it. Maybe in a couple months …. well…. who knows, but I’m going to give it an honest try.
I would encourage any of you to give him a call. He seemed genuinely thrilled to talk about his “metal mechanics” approach, and is confident in its ability to overcome the demon of target panic.
Update: I went out to the garage this morning to shoot four arrows before heading to the office. Perfect... no apprehension, and no anticipation. I simply ran my "new" shot sequence. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Thanks for the words of encouragement in this thread! Mind over matter is winning the battle for me. I have been shooting at 5 yds with only one arrow now for 3 days. It had been my New Year's resolution to kick the TP problem. Solid anchor is being achieved, back tension is present--FINALLY!!!
I am overwhelmed with happiness that I am on the back side of this frustrating problem. Thank you Tradgang and the shooters forum, thank you for this great thread!!
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Jim,
Glad to hear Mr. Turner's approach is helping you! You have helped me several times in the past on my threads dealing with TP; something I have been battling for some time now and I appreciate that. I am interested to hear how things work for you going forward. Are you using a non-anticipatory trigger? For me distances of 20 yards or greater and shooting with an audience is when my control falls apart. When the concious mind lacks confidence it wants to turn everything over to the sub-concious even more. At least that is my take on it. The mantra and trigger have given me the control over the shot I have always wanted as long as my mind is thinking about the action not the trigger. My mistake at first was thinking about the feather. For me it seems to be the fix I have been looking for, but it does take mental discipline as Joel talks about to not let yourself shoot bad shots but to concentrate on perfect shot execution every time. At times I find myself thinking "Is that feather ever going to get here", and I am trying to learn to let down when that happens as those are the bad shots.
Thanks Joel!!
Gary
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It really has a shift in the thinking from what I have been taught. I have been working at the mental mechanics now since I talked with Joel. If I run the right "script", I can shoot an unanticipated shot.
Last night I shot lots of arrows in darkness "moonlight" and with my eyes closed. I used the "script" of "keep pushing" that works for me to push my elbow around. Programming the head!
I shot well today. I still think that shooting without seeing, eyes closed, gives the mind the ability to "feel" and "sear" the perfect shot sequence into the physical mechanics. This is the form work of archery we all must tend to.
It is really a relaxed state when you can look and allow the mind to aim. The shot happens, and that arrow appears in the middle of the picture.
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After reading this interesting thread, I thought I would add an online site from the world of Olymic archery which appears to confirm what Joel Turner is advocating:
KSL International Archery
FAQ [frequently asked questions]
Question 47. "target panic"
KSL Shot Cycle [US language]
9. Aiming and Expansion
Don Teter
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Hey Don,
Great link. I never heard of KSL. I am working hard on my shot process along with fighting TP so I enjoy reading everything I can. That site seems to have some really good stuff on it. Thanks for the tip.
Cato
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Joel,
I had some trouble last night at our league shoot again. I was saying draw, aim and then the mantra but was releasing early sometime after draw and before starting the mantra. What I found to help was starting the mantra early, about four inches before reaching anchor and using the mantra to pull to anchor and through the feather. I was thinking about the pulling until I reached anchor and then thinking about the correct anchor and then back to the pulling until conclusion when the feather touched. Any reason I shouldn't be doing it this way?
Thanks,
Gary
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I've been struggling with TP of some sort for the past 10+ years. I almost gave up. Jay Kidwells stuff has really helped, although I still do not have control over my shot. I can often come to full draw, but I am not in control. I do have some questions maybe you can help with...
1) Is this system completely explained in MBB4? I am looking at swapping to LH due to shoulder issues and I want to build it correctly from the beginning.
2) Can this system be used in conjunction with the form and style presented by John Shultz in the "Hittin em like Howard Hill" video? This is the style I have shot/tried to shoot since the beginning 20 years ago. It is the style I like the most and I would like to keep it if possible.
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Joel this is amazing thread....thank you for all of your effort to help people with TP....i really feel like i can over come this now!
The thing im still not getting is about the sear tab....when do you know to start putting pressure on the sear...and wouldnt it depend on how long your draw length is...and how much pressure you put with your thumb before the sear pops?
Lance
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Joel, I was considering quitting shooting trad. I've struggled with tp for over 40 years. Then I got mbb4 and watched your segment and thought I can do that. I went to the archery club and practiced keep pulling keep pulling and touching the feather to my nose. I have to say THANK YOU so much. I'm shooting so much better and enjoying shooting again. I noticed when I'm not getting the feather touch I have to rally concentrate on my mantra and have to keep saying it quickly and concentrate on it, and it comes back to me. Thank you again.
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Flingblade,
You have to ask yourself what it was that making you let go early. You may have been having the "Good Enough" thought coming from the gremlin. It sounds like you got ahold of the issue though. I seems that you are directing your thoughts into the proper areas.
There is no reason that you can't shoot the way you are describing, however, you need to make a choice to only shoot the shot if it is perfect in concentration. If you are letting go of bad arrows and failing to let down, you are strengthening the gremlin. You need to become more in tune with your thoughts. If your frame of mind is not right during the shot, LET DOWN!!!! I know that is a tough choice to make during a shot, but it will work as a defining moment for you. There has to be defining moments in your archery. A shot that was really tough to concentrate on because of outside stress, maybe you had to let down twice, but once you do that, you will really be in tune with your thoughts. Furthermore, you will be able to repeat it, time and again. Good luck!!! Call if you can.
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Khardrunner,
This system is explained in MBB4. If you have further questions about it (this is to be expected) feel free to call me so we can chat about it. It will take me about a half hour to explain it in detail and to evaluate your shot.
To answer your second question, this system can be used with any form style as long as the style deals with coming to FULL draw before releasing the arrow. I have not watched that film, I apologize. Feel free to call so I can analyze your shot.
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Lance,
The tab sear has nothing to do with draw length. I put my thumbnail on the sear as soon as the aim is completed. When I am comfortable with the aim, I start applying pressure to the sear by pressing my thumb towards my palm. When the sear pops as a surprise, that triggers my subconscious release. Call if you can.
Take Care
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Khardrunner,
Your 2nd question is an interesting one.
Because I am (gratefully) fortunate enough to not be plagued with severe TP, I can shoot both the target and Howard Hill styles. These two styles, IMO, are very different.
What Joel is sharing makes good sense and would be effective for more target style shooting, where, as he noted one is anchoring at full draw for one to several seconds.
I do not believe it would be as effective for the more Howard Hill style, because one does not hold at anchor with that style for any length of time.
IMO, trying to comtrol tp using the Howard Hill style would be more difficult to deal with. It would be interesting on another thread to learn how folks control tp when shooting the Howard Hill style.
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Mr. Turner, I will give you a call soon to discuss some options.
I can see how the Hill Style would be very difficult to fight TP. I hope that I can figure that out, although I don't experience TP lefty ....yet.
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Thanks again for the time spent on the phone. It's been helpful so far as I build my shot left handed.
I do have one question that comes in two parts... how do you shoot quickly using this process? I'm thinking in terms of moving targets.
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khardrunner, You will have to practice that. It is very hard to shoot with the mantra and trigger on moving targets. You will have to use the subconscious to help you with that. I was shooting with Joel last week and asked him if he used this technique in close up combat shooting with his pistol and he said no because he wasn't concerned with super accuracy. If it is a slow target like a walking deer you can still use the mantra and trigger but on the faster arial targets or running targets get lots of practice.
Chris.
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Has anyone else made and used a tab sear? I am trying to figure out what to use for the sear. Joel said he used the metal arrow rest from a timber doodle style rest but I don't have one of those. Was thinking about a similar metal or plastic blade or even some type of small switch or toggle mounted to the tab. Any ideas?
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The problem i am having with TP is getting to full draw....before knowing about the mantra the gremlin would scream....let go!...the string was about at my nose....the mantra keeps my mind busy for that couple of extra inches.
When i shoot at my 3 D i say...draw...the aim takes care of itself...and i say...keep pulling....keep pulling and as soon as the feather touches my nose the arrow is gone...no need to go any slower than you usually would when shooting at an animal.
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Huntsmanlance,
I think you have made an excellent adaptation that I had not considered for Howard Hill style shooting!!
Your aiming is subconscious, but your conscious mind is fully occupied with the pulling mantra as the arrow is drawn to anchor, which controls the tp.
Thanks for sharing it!
Don
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I've considered saying the mantra from the point that I start the straight back motion portion on the draw until I anchor and release.
Without modifying it, I still don't see how it would work for fast shooting or moving targets as demonstrated in Shultz's video. I know there is a clip online somewhere if you are not familar with it.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/deathwind/101_0654.jpg)
This isn't the best picture but my camera quit after the first try. I took a clicker apart and used the clicking part of it on the bottom of the tab. I'm setting it off with my pinky finger and it's seems to be working great so far. Hopefully this will give some others an idea and they will post also. If everyone would post their contraptions, maybe we can come with a really good idea.
Thanks,
Bill
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Whatever tab sear / clicker or other psychotrigger you come up with, please remember to keep the concentration in the movement that makes the psychotrigger go off and not the trigger itself. If you start thinking, "Man, when is this thing gonna go off?" you are not thinking about the movement that makes it go off. If that occurs, you will probably start to anticipate the psychotrigger, whatever it is.
The mantra will put the conscious mind in the muscle group that is required for that action. The psychotrigger going off should be a byproduct of your movement. For example, the tab clicker shown in the above post should go off as a byproduct of your pressing.
Good work folks, now you are thinking!!!!
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Thanks so much Joel. I had watched Vol IV and was trying your system and after reading your posts it has really hit home what is needed to gain full control over my shot.
In my opinion the one thing about this system that makes it work is the mantra forces you to concentrate on every shot. As soon as I nock the arrow to loose I am talking myself through everything and that allows me to ignore all the outside factors. No the test will be in front of others, that is were I find myself having trouble.
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As far as using a trigger, I prefer to use bone on bone back tension as the trigger. In your segment on the DVD you mention "keep pulling", I say "keep squeezing". This way I make sure I am in good alignment prior to starting my mantra.
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Longstick64,
The mantra is there to force concentration into the muscles you are speaking about. If "Squeezing" works for your mind, I say, GOOD WORK!!!!! Keep the concentration in the movement through the use of your mantra. Nice work sir.
JT
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Just thought Id post this little nugget I found reading about Navy SEAL training....seems to fit what Joel is trying to say:
Neuroscientist estimate that we say 300 to 1000 words to ourselves every waking minute. In time of stress, that internal monologue can become a high pitched shriek from your brains anxiety center, the amygdala. SEALS override these self generated fears by learning to emphasize, over and over, the positive aspect of what they are doing, says petty officer Buck, 31, a SEAL sniper. “If you need to lift more, you tell your self, “Stronger, Stronger. Stronger.’ If you need more speed you tell yourself “Faster. Faster. Faster.” Unless you train yourself to do this through repetitive practice-thousands of iterations-the negative voice will drown out the positive. :thumbsup:
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Yohon,
Thanks for that input, I always find it fascinating that the mind will come up with a mantra under times of needed concentration to complete a task. It is interesting that I find when the mind does this, it will always say it more than once and in a rhythm "Stronger, Stronger, Stronger" Once I realized this phenomenon, I see it nearly everyday in some form or another. With the mantra of "Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling" you are putting the mind in certain muscles and you are giving it the rate of movement with the rhythm at which you say it!!!! Really cool stuff when you realize how connected our speech is to the conscious mind.
Take Care,
JT
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Clickerman,
I have been mulling over something you said on your last post for several days. What do you mean by speaking the mantra with a rhythm? If this is this something that humans do naturally, I wonder if is this not also the same subconcious rhythm that occurs naturally in sports when one is playing well (ie golf, basketball, tennis, ect.)? Is this a similar controlled rhythm you are trying to achieve in archery? If done consistently, does this eventually become a sub conscious rhythm? Is this what the subconscious naturally wants to do, but if the "mechanics" are not correct, then problems occur?
I am just wondering out loud. The very best athletic endeavors often occur when the athlete is "in the zone", but it usually takes a lot intelligent work to get there.
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Clickerman, great post :)
Shot execution should always be more important than arrow location ( funny thing is the better the shot execution, the better the location and groups. )
What is this " Tab sear" that you spoke about in your original post ?
Bill
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Bill, There are pics on page 4. That is a prototype but easy to make.
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I have to say - even though I've had the pleasaure of speaking at length with Mr. Turner over the phone, I still refer back to this thread at least several times a week to go over many of the great points made in it. This thread is awesome for those of us with TP, and considering all the TP questions and threads we get on here, I think it'd be great if it could be made into a sticky.
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Donald,
When I am talking about the rhythm of the mantra, I am referring to the rate at which you are telling your muscles to move. The words of the mantra put your conscious mind in a specific muscle group and the rhythm at which the mantra is said is the rate at which the muscles will move. For example, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling, is said in a smooth rhythm if you want your muscles to move smoothly. If the rhythm is choppy, or incremental, with gaps in between the key phrases in the mantra, ie. Keep Pulling.........Keep Pulling...........Keep Pulling, you will find that the muscles move in the same incremental fashion. Every time you say the key phrase of the mantra, you are sending the conscious mind to that muscle group. The revolving rhythm traps the conscious mind in the muscle group and does not allow it to wander because there are no gaps in the speech pattern. This is much easier to explain with verbal examples so if this explanation does not work for you, please call me so I can give you some better examples.
Thanks for the question. This thread is made to get people thinking about what is going through their head during a shot.
Take Care,
JT
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Donald wrote: "I am just wondering out loud. The very best athletic endeavors often occur when the athlete is "in the zone", but it usually takes a lot intelligent work to get there."
Interesting point Donald. I think I should clear the "zone" up. The zone is NO CONCIOUS THOUGHT!!! It is all action or reaction based on a level of skill or experience acquired through training.
Once a person no longer needs his conscious mind to perform an action or reaction he is able to enter the "zone". He just does it. He is completely and utterly in present time. There is no past or future. If you have an upset at home and it is running in the back of your mind during the day it will be difficult to drop into the zone because the "past" upset is operating in present time. Your "game" will be a little off.
On the other hand if you are thinking even a little about the outcome of the shot or the future result of a competition you will not be in the present but in the "future". This will not allow you into the zone.
I start my shot sequence with a statement in my analytical mind. After that there is nothing as the training or "form" that has been engrained from the past is now in control. This is why people drop right back into their old form issues. That past program (form) will take over and start running. This is how our minds are designed. It’s a survival mechanism.
You cannot do two things at once. You can take this one to the bank. So to aim is a single thought or task. This means that your program (form) will run on its own. Whatever dominant form program is in your subconscious rules. If it contains bad habits they will come back when you are no longer thinking about form and are aiming or even worse…when about to shoot at an animal.
Target panic is what I call an organized confusion. I had it only briefly. The only real way that I know of to instill a new program (form) is to not think about anything else. This means aiming cannot or shouldn’t be performed while drilling in a new form program to the automated functions of the subconscious. Aiming at the same time makes it two things. This goes against the characteristics of the subconscious mind.
Drill in the form until it is set. This means that there is no “target panic” in form drilling as you can concentrate on each step of your sequence up to and including the hold to squeeze your back muscles until release. There is no aiming. In fact, aiming is what gets one to target panic to start with. Two or more things at once. Organized confusion. A man can go from no target panic to target panic the second he changes anything that differs from the program that is already running in his subconscious from the previous 10,000 shots he’s made before.
Once a form program is instilled and drilled an drilled…he has all the time in the world to aim or hold or let down if he changes his mind. He is only doing one thing…aiming. If anything is off or not optimum he will let down. Professionals let down when it’s not right. That subconscious little warning goes off in the recesses of his mind.
I did not progress until I went to the range every day and blank baled over and over and over. Now that I am going up to the next level even higher I am doing it again. A mantra is used to start or engage a subconscious mental program. After that the program takes over. There is no “thinking” just an existence in present time.
I think that the problem that exists is that some archers (not all by any stretch) either do not know how the subconscious works or are confused on the subject or are just plain not willing to blank bale shoot and forget targets and aiming exist long enough to engrain a new subconscious program. It’s a lot of work and only those willing to do the work will advance to the next level.
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Clickerman, any interest in selling a couple of those tabs? Maybe with calf hair faces on them?
Bill
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Footed Shaft,
I am trying to get my hands on some cordovan leather right now. I have some kydex for the plates. I could make some if I know where to get calf hair???? Any ideas?
JT
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I have a few chunks i could send you if ya like.
Bill
P.S
What is Kydex ?
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Joel, i have 2 pieces of calf hair that measure 6x6 . I can send you one if you like.
I would love to see the tab sear in use ( video ) if you can make one.
Bill
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TTT, this needs to stay near the top of the page.
:) Bill
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Bill,
I just replied to your pm. Kydex is a thick plastic that is used for holsters. It can be heated and formed to specs. It can also be ground and drilled. It is great material for tab plates. Great idea on the video, I will see what I can do in the near future. A quick call to me will give you a good overview of the tab sear concept, in the meantime.
Take Care,
JT
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Joel, Last weekend I headed to my friends cabin in northern Wisconsin for our annual spring scouting weekend. We always have time to shoot a bunch of arrows, and he commented that in thirty years of knowing me, he'd never seen me able to anchor, aim and execute a shot. Now, it was just the two of us, so there wasn't any "pressure" shots, but it still works. Since talking to you a few weeks ago, I've been able to go to indoor league night and do the same. I would certainly recommend your method to any fellow TP sufferers. Thank you!
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I have been watching this thread for a while. I was wondering if anyone else counts or shoots after a set phrase. If I choose to hold for five I shoot on or around five sometimes less if the shot seems perfect and I don't want to wait. That sometimes gets me into trouble though. Is it okay to set a count for a trigger? I find it to be the best way to distract myself-- especially in front of people.
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Jason, I'm certainly not the expert here but what Joel talks about is an unanticipatory trigger to achieve a surprise release. When you count you are distracting yourself to gain control but at some point the subconcious will figure it out and short circuit your shot sequence again. There are many patches that will work short term to gain control of tp but Joel's system has given me more control for the longest period of time and over time confidence in your shot sequence will really increase. Just my 2 cents. Best of luck!
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Interesting thread. I went looking for some info on a clicker and how to best mount it. I have developed some TP, and figure I would give the clicker a try to straighten myself out. I always shot with a more static release and for the most part with some recognition of the arrow in my vision, but no intentional specific gaping. Over the last two years, I have been working on fixing up my form and more of a dynamic release. This winter I worked a lot more on improving my dynamic release. I was feeling like I really had everything working well so I started to concentrate more on intentional aiming. Everything was going great for a couple weeks until one day I started having issues settling into my anchor and then could not get a full draw. TP has hit. It seem like everything went south after I got out of my normal routine of concentrating more on the shot process and got more into intentional aiming. Now to fix myself.
I have found that I have been able to overcome it at shorter ranges. I have worked up to about 12-15 yd. with fairly consistent anchor and release. Some days I can shoot farther out, but most times I hit the wall at about 15 yd. I am slowly trying to program my brain that it can settle down and make the shot at longer distances.
I have been able to anchor solid take a good look at the item I want to hit and pull through the shot at longer ranges on small items in the yard. I can also hold solid and pull while aiming at something I have no intention of shooting. I think I may go to stump shooting and shooting at leaves in the yard to help reprogram. After a couple shots at small random targets or holding on say a spot in space or on a tree I can make a good solid shot on a target, but it does not last very many shots. I defiantly have a metal block shooting at my typical targets.
I am trying not to figure out if I should mount the clicker, try the feather thing, or go to more stump shooting and working on getting out of this slump without the psycho trigger.
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xtrema312,
I would be great if you would give me a call. I can explain what is happening to you, we can talk about the clicker, or an other psychotrigger. I will explain the science behind what is happening to you, but it sounds like you are trying the long, and eventually unsuccessful route of trying to fix your target panic. I realize some people don't want to shoot with a psychotrigger. It is more important that you understand the mental mechanics of the shot. Then you can make your own decision about your system and how you want to approach your cure.
Talk to you soon,
Joel Turner 253-686-3623
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I will give you a call Joel when I am out of work and can talk for a while.
It seems to me that I have created a short-range form shot sequence that works fine when I don’t have to hit anything, but in the process or that I messed up my longer-range shot process.
This AM before work I went out and just drew the bow a couple times into space and held it feeling back tension and fingers on the string. I pulled into the shot and held for a few seconds. Then I went through the same process on a few leaves in the yard without a shot. Next, I started full draw concentrating on different objects I may shoot. Next, I started taking shots at leaves round the yard at all different ranges. Very well executed shots with great anchor, back tension, and relaxed shot follow through. No issues at all. After that I tood one 25 yd. shot on a 3D target and another about that range on a bag target. Great shots one and all. I don’t think I am too far gone, but need to fix it for sure. I think a lot of my problem is too many repetitive shots at the same target. I have drilled my brain to line up fast and somewhere along the line the slow pull at anchor and through the shot got lost.
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I have been trying a new mantra. I was having trouble with "keep pulling". I can only guess as to the psychological aspect but the word "keep" to me means continue doing something I am already doing and I would say it over and over and not get the arrow back as back tension wasn't increasing so I am now saying "pull stronger, pull stronger". This word association tells my back muscles to increase back tension and is working much better for me.
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Flingblade,
Use whatever mantra that gets you to concentrate on the muscles that are required for that action. You can make up your own neurolinguistic programs but you must test them under stress. Stress like adrenaline will test your business. If your mantra is not hard wired enough, stress will conquer it. So use it, but make sure you test it. Good work sir!!!!
JT
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Hi Joel,
When I first started shooting a traditional bow as a kid I had zero instruction, so I just ripped it back and let it go. When I decided to start hunting with a recurve in 88 I followed one of the only instructional shooting books I could find and soon found my style was nothing more than a modified rip it back and let it go. When I tried to anchor hold and release I shook, plucked and forward released. A true mess I fought for 20+ years. One day I just changed to right handed and started from scratch.
I don't have any problem drawing, anchoring and executing my shots but I do practice my form religiously every day. I like the mantra idea so I've been working with it the past week. Here is what I've found.
If my mantra has more than one word I find myself using the words like numbers, similar to counting. That really screwed me up. What I've found that works is this. I come into my anchor and when I feel my index finger on my check bone I smoothly say pulllllllllllll. I draw the word out like a deep exhaling breath. Some where in there the release just happens without me thinking about it. When I used the words "keep pulling" I could feel my concentration and back tension hesitate in between the words! With that mantra I would have to tell myself to release which caused mental havoc.
At anchor saying any word even to myself expels air, loosing shoulder expansion???? Shouldn't I be inhaling when the release happens?
Great thread, thanks for sharing your expertise!
Tim
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Hi Joel, thanks again for taking time to help me out yesterday. I have been really struggling the past few years. It's time for me to nip this TP issue in the bud.
I watched your section on MBB3 last night and again this morning. And everything you said makes perfect sense.
I was able to shoot tonight after work, I shot 24 arrows from 10 to 20 yards and only had two that were not in complete control. I used the mantra and pulled through my clicker. I released on the surprise of the click and that is new to me, and very cool.
I didn't dwell on accuracy just the shot control and sequence. I was very surprised that the the accuracy was there and I didn't really even have to think about it. It just sort of happened.
I can say that, I was very tired after that short shooting session. That must be do to holding longer than I am used to while pulling through the clicker.
I have a week to practice before my next league shoot, that will be the true test. I going to go in to it with the mind set of not worry about score and just making every shot a controlled one.
I will post again next week with my progress. Thank you, Glen
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Update.... I had my tuesday night league shoot this week and was able to hold it together and control each and every shot. I will continue to use the "keep pulling" mantra and pull through my clicker.
Thanks again Joel for the time you spent on the phone with me. I really appreciate your help. Glen
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Glen,
Great work sir, keep up the concentration practice!!!! You must seek stress to test your system. Constant tests of the system will give you the skills to really know what is in your head during a shot so you can tell if a shot is going to be perfect or not. Great to hear you are doing well. Make the choice to shoot only those shots that are perfect in concentration.
Tim,
It sounds as if you are still allowing the subconscious to tell itself when to release. Just by your answers, I can tell that you are still thinking about too many things in your shot. If you continue to allow the subcon to tell itself when to release, it will start to shortcut that shot and instead of getting through your pullllllll, you may start to release in the start of the word instead of within the word. I am not saying this WILL happen, but it definitely the norm with this type of no psychotrigger shot.
The mantra is supposed to control a movement that gets you to the goal of a psychotrigger, it is not supposed to be used to activate the shot itself. Please call me so I can explain. You are on the right track but I don't want the gremlin to learn your shot and start to shortcut it. 253-686-3623 I look forward to hearing from you.
Take Care,
JT
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I'm still working with this and I am looking for ideas for the shot trigger. I'm a glove only guy so the tab sear won't work. I'm playing with feathers to the nose but I'm not consistent with when the feathers get there. A lot of times, I draw right to where the feathers are hitting my nose right off the bat.
Any other ideas for psyco triggers for release?
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I've had one form or another of target panic for many years.I think i got off on the wrong foot early on when i was a teen.I'm 69 now and still have problems with it,though I've tried many things including a clicker,lower bow weight,you name it.lately,ive been breaking down and saying the shot sequence as I go.I start saying,anchor,witch I can achieve,(if I start above my intended mark),then elbow up,then get a sight picture,and try to pull the string through the fingers.problem latley has been,when coming down to the intened mark,i can't stop and settle,and let go as I come down---no good
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Gentlemen,
Please give me a call and I will see what I can do for you. I have had a ton of callers so far and it has been great speaking to everyone about this issue. I believe I can help. 253-686-3623
JT
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I've been using a shot sequence, stance, draw, anchor, aim, and contract -- until by string touches my ball cap bill -- when I touch the bill, I release. It's an easily adjustable psycho trigger. I know it's not perfect, but I shoot split finger and anchor in the corner of my mouth, so the cock feather doesn't really come close to anything. It seems to be working.... I'm bald and white, so a hat is always part of my shooting gear anyway.
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Joel,after talking to you on the phone about my problem,I have to say I wish someone would have given me such advice 55+ years ago.I really didn't want to put a clicker on my bow(s),but if the boogyman takes over again,I will.I really did't know what the word matra meant,now i get it.I have ,almost immediatly been able to separate the aiming part of the shot,from the actual release.I now can let down,if things don't feel or look right before the final "keep pulling,keep pulling" matra.I was able to try the press trigger,using the thumb and jawbone.it worked also,butI seems to cup the drawing hand a little. Anyway ,the technique you discribed has given me the ability to separate the concience from the unconcious.
Many Thanks for the help.
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Excuse me,Thats mantra,not matra.
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Good work folks. Call if you have any questions or concerns. Remember to only shoot the shot if it is perfect in concentration. You must know what is going through your head before you can control your thoughts during the shot. Does me good to hear of your successes.
Take Care,
JT
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I sent you a txt and hope you can receive them. I would like to get in line to chat.
Thanks!
Matt
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Hi Joel I just wanted to thank you again for taking time to help me with my shooting. Calling you was the single best thing I ever did to improve my shooting.
I am improving every time I shoot. I only shoot arrows that are in control and with complete concentration. Or I don't shoot and let down, it's that simple.
Guys Joel is the real deal! If your reading this post and think you show any signs of target panic symptoms give him a call he can help you.
Joel I hope some day to meet you and shake your hand. You saved my shooting. Thank you, Glen
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I had a setback.Seems like the gremlins came back with a vengance yesterday.I had the same problem separating the aim,from the keep pulling mantra.i couldn't even get passed saying keep before I let go.I worked at it today and what seem to help was really marrying up to the cheekbones at anchor,such as Moebow shows in his videos.Then I do the "let it dance on spot,before the keep pulling.Seemed to help a lot.
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I can identify with Mazz on this. I am using Joel's system of using the mantra, keep pulling keep pulling,and it works however at times I would not be able to get on the spot before I would release. What I have been doing is trying to seperate out the concentration of external focusing and internal focusing. What I do is, before I draw the bow I say EXTERNAL, this tells my mind to focus on the spot, to get on it, while I draw. I then say, STOP, when I get to anchor, checking the aim. I then say the word INTERNAL, Telling me to start focusing on the proper shot sequence,takeing my focus off the aim totally to my form. I them use the mantra, keep pulling, keep pulling while looking at the spot, until the shot is off, concentrating on, internal thoughts. I have found out this helps me to seperate out the aim from the shot sequence, giving me more control of my target panic and associated problems. Seems like alot to do, but so far has been working for me. Maybe this can help someone else too.
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Fellas,
If you are still allowing the subconscious to tell itself when to release, you are starting down the path of target panic again. Your subconscious is begining to learn your shot and starting the process of shortcutting it. This is the natural progression of target panic. The mantra is to be used to get you to your psychotrigger, not to the release!!!! The mantra gets you to concentrate on a movement that gets you to the goal of a psychotrigger. If you are simply using the mantra and not incorporating a psychotrigger, you are building a shot that will be affected by stress. By allowing the gremlin to release the string whenever he wants, you are not cutting him out of the shot. That is why you are having to come up with other mantras to change your thought process. They too, may only work for a short time.
This is really a system that must incorporate some type of non-anticipatory psychotrigger. If not, there is no goal for the movement and the subconscious is still allowed to tell itself when the release should happen. Remember, the psychotrigger is a the "GO" signal for the gremlin to release. If you don't give him a signal, he will let it go when he wants, which is always a shortcutted system. Please call with questions if you are having trouble with your shot. I can explain things much better on the phone or in person 253-686-3623
JT
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I hate the clicker. I seem to like the tab sear concept, and I don't feel like I am forced to draw past where I like to be. I need to figure out how to make one for a shooting glove. I used my finger over thumb and liked it more than than the clicker. And I REALLY appreciate your time, Joel!
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Joel I sent you a PM.
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A question or two, but first some background
I got over a bad case of target panic about a year and half ago, I couldn't believe how long I was inflicted with it and how only a few sessions of shooting started to show improvement. Long story short, I read books about instinctive shooting where I was told to aim during the draw and release as soon as I touched my anchor. Couple this with being a bit over bowed and years and years of frustrating shooting followed.
But dropping a little weight coupled with how I viewed the whole shot process really started to help. I'd like to say I never once fired an arrow at a blank bale, only because I was afraid that if I didn't somehow aim, I'd destroy my arrow or put a hole in my garage. After I was a little confident, I began cruising this forum and trying to follow advice on form and that helped things even more.
Now to my questions:
1. What exactly is a physco trigger and how does it eliminate the subconcious? Most "instinctive" shooters will tell you in not so many words to ignore the the conscious mind and just let the shot take care of itself. This has never worked for me, in fact I believe this was the root of my target panic. Once I started to break down the shot process and do things very deliberately ( instead of subconcsiously ) things started to improve.
2. The word "physco" implies something in the mind, but from what I gather from your explaination it seems to be able to be broken down into something that results in proper physical form, hence the mantra of keep pulling. Continuing to pull insures that all the proper lines of force are met to get the arrow to go where it is pointed. Is my thinking correct on this?
Please excuse my long winded post, but having suffered so long from target panic I now find myself with a need to understand it better.
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Inquiring minds want to know. :bigsmyl:
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I highly recommend dropping as much weight as you can in the process of doing this. I cured my TP for essentially the same method Joel is offering help with, and wouldn't have been successful if I hadn't hurt my shoulder, forcing me to drop from a 52# to a 30#. It was the only bow I could pull without my shoulder screaming at me. I'm now back up to around 45#, can shoot it all day and am finally hitting what I'm looking at. Good luck to everyone. Joel this is a wonderful offer you have extended. I highly encourage everyone to use it.
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I think I figured out a way to get the flipper button attached to about anything, I had to search a hardware store for a viable option, and I hope I found it. Should be easy. I'll post pics once I get it figured out.
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Everyone,
Sorry I haven't posted in a bit, I am in the middle of working 9 days straight. I will post some answers tonight when I get home. Sorry for the delay. I would highly recommend that anyone with questions to please call me. 2536863623. I have had 59 calls so far.
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I have a new clicker sitting on my archery table . Been thinking of trying it ever since I shot a few rounds with a friend last season who uses one . I have a Question though. Where is the best place to attach it on the limb etc. The instructions are a bit sketchy . I'm shooting a 52 # Hawk recurve 64" long . Thanks Mike
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Hi Joel,
Since our conversation I tried the clicker and failed, then I ADDED the button to press, and I am reigning in the gremlins. Now that I have confidence this will work, I have to re-design where my press button is in relation to my thumb. I think everyone has a different shaped hand/thumb length. Anyway, I draw to anchor and the click with the arrow on target, and then press the button to trigger the arrow release. Honestly, I can't believe how well this works. The clicker alone isn't effective for me, and the button to press isn't great alone either, but the combo is working very well. I am working toward every shot as a controlled shot. It's almost as if my brain tries to short circuit anything and I need two distractions. It feels really good to shoot perfect shots, so far as form is concerned. Thanks again for your input!
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Poekoelan,
A psychological trigger is simply some outside phenomenon that tells your subconscious when to release the arrow. It can be a clicker, feather to nose, tab sear, or anything that is non-anticipatory. You should not be able to feel yourself getting closer to the psychotrigger. In other words, if you use hitting a tooth as your trigger, you can feel yourself getting closer to the tooth, that is an anticipatory movement and will not work as well as a non-anticipatory one. A non-anticipatory trigger would be like a clicker going off, or a tab sear popping, you can't feel it getting closer to going off and therefore you don't anticipate it.
The real key, however, is controlling the movement that gets you to your trigger. This is done with the use of the mantra. The mantra is just specific words said in a revolving rhythm that puts your conscious mind into the movement that is required for the action you are talking about. It is the key to true concentration. I have had 62 callers now and I have asked every one of them, "Do you know HOW to concentrate?" and they have all told me "NO." Until you know what is going through your mind, you have no way of controlling what is going through your mind. If you know HOW to concentrate, you can put that skill to work for you under stress and control the movement that gets you to your psychotrigger. Your shots will go to the same place, because your mind is in the same place, everytime. Control your thought=Control your shot. The shot is broken into pieces 1. Draw back and aim 2. Concentrate on the movement that activates your trigger. Once the trigger activates, the gremlin gets his wish and releases the arrow but you told him when to do it with the trigger. If the trigger is a surprise when it activates, the release will be a surprise and follow through will take care of itself. Please call if you have questions!!!!
Thanks,
JT
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Clickerman,
I ordered all the MBBs ( including 4 ) and I'm looking forward to watching them all, especially 4 since the material hits so close to home.
But some more questions if you don't mind. It seems that what you are saying is that you want something outside of yourself to trigger your release. I tried this for a long time with a timer. I would set the timer to 4 or 5 seconds, press the button and draw to my anchor and hold til it went off. Other times I would have my wife stand next to me and count.
None of this worked for me. Then I came across a dvd called "The Push Release". I tried ( but didn't like ) the extra movement at the end of the shot, it seemed it would always make me jerk the release. But the whole concept about shooting a rifle made SO MUCH sense to me! It really woke me up to the fact that the anchor point is where the whole shot process really starts, and everything I'd read in the books about "instinctive" shooting seemed to imply that touching your anchor should be your "trigger" to release, and all your concentration should be on the target at all times,no wonder I couldn't come to full draw!!
Once I made the comparison of shooting a bow to shooting a rifle, I was ( and still am ) able to reach my anchor point all the time.
There have even been a few times when I felt my string hand creeping and I called it back before releasing and the arrows still hit well.
However, I should add that ALL of this has taken place either in my basement or my yard, with only my wife being there on occasion. NONE of it has been under stressful conditions. But hell, having target panic for years was stressful enough! LOL
I should ALSO add, that just because I can come to full on every shot doesn't neccessarily mean I have this problem completely licked. All it really means is that I can now reach my anchor on every shot, but I'm miles ahead of where I was about a year and a half ago and my arrows hitting where I want them to is the proof to me.
I'm not really sure I know how to "concentrate" or what is going through my mind. I'm also not even sure if I'm an instinctive shooter or a gap shooter. But I DO know that reaching my anchor is only the beginning of my shot process and I'm much much happier with my shooting after realizing that and making it happen.
But I do have to admit, what happens AFTER that does remain a mystery to me. In other words, I know what DOESN'T trigger my release anymore, but I'm not exactly sure what DOES it now.
Thoughts?
Everything after that is still kind of a mystery.
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My thoughts are to please call me. I will explain in detail what should and should not trigger your release. It sounds as if you are well on your way and you have started separating the shot between aiming and shot activation, however, I would like to explain psychological triggers to you and tell you exactly HOW to concentrate under stress. I look forward to speaking with you. 253-686-3623
Take Care,
JT
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Joel, You are the Man :thumbsup:
Consider me enlightened.
I just found this thread last night, read part of it and the rest tonight. I just went out and shot 40 of the best, most deliberate arrows that I have shot in a Looooong time.
My problem was getting to anchor and staying there till I was ready. The last month has been just miserable, the worst ever. Like lots of folks I'd go up to 5-10 yds and "work on it", that was even getting tough. At 20-30 yds most times I would never even feel my hand reach my face, let a lone anchor.
Tonight was totaly refreshing, what a rush of confidence.
Basicaly just have to talk myself through the shot.
Tell myself..draw
When I'm a couple inches from my face...Anchor
When I'm coming to anchor...Hold, Pull, Pull
When I'm happy, I dont say pull..its gone!
For me, seems like telling myself the next step just before the current step was complete worked best, leaves no delay in the sequence I guess.
I think this is gonna work.
Thanks Joel for starting this thread! If we ever cross paths I buy ya a cold one.
Eric
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Westbrook,
I am glad to hear of your success, however, be careful. It sounds like you are still allowing the subconscious to tell itself when to release. That may work for awhile, or if you have extreme discipline, it may work for the rest of your life. But, allowing the subconscious to release when things "Feel Right" plays right into the hands of target panic. Once your subconscious learns your shot and the words you are using, it may start to shortcut the system to try to make it more efficient. It makes no sense to your mind to hold on a spot in terms of efficiency, that is why it lets go before anchor. The mantra is used to concentrate on a movement that gets you to your psychotrigger. The psychotrigger is what tells the subconscious "When" to let go. Your shot at this point is working because you have changed the throught process, but once the process is learned by the subcon, just be aware that it will try to shortcut the process. My suggestion would be to develop a psychotrigger to make your shot absolutely in control under any stress level. Call me if you need further explanation. 253-686-3623 I am up to 66 callers so far. Keep it coming!!!!
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I found this thread a couple of weeks ago, and after practicing Joel's system, it's turned my shooting around.
I didn't have a problem coming to anchor, but I did have some trouble loosing the string earlier than I wanted.
Without trying to over analyze it, the system was simple to learn.
Subconsciously aiming while at anchor, along with using the mantra (keep pulling-keep pulling-keep pulling) is the key to getting to my trigger, (fletching to nose) and is where my concentration goes.
I talked to Joel about this concentration level and what he said made sense.
When in a more stressful situation such as shooting in front of a crowd, or the shot of a lifetime on a trophy game animal, the mantra needs to be more aggressive.
Two things that are key for me - the trigger has to be non anticipated, and not loosing the string before conciously getting to the trigger.... in Joel's words, letting the gremlin tell you when to shoot.
The aiming of the shot will take care of itself.
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Where can I get a sear to attach to a tab? Can you make one easy enough. What about something for a glove. I get a lot of tension when I use the pinky nail and thumb nail. I have also though of maybe a ring on my pinky finger, further down is where my thumb sits comfortably.
Brandon
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I have a question for Joel Turner, or anyone who has been down this road.
I've tried the feather to the nose method, and for several sessions, it worked pretty well. But then, the old nemesis - the involuntary release - came back, with a vengeance! I've had the same experience with a clicker - it works for awhile, but then the uncontrolled release just overpowers it.
Is there any way that the nemesis can be tamed enough even to allow me to use the feather to the nose technique or a conventional clicker?
Thanks, Dan Jones
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A postscript to my post immediately above: I realize that I'm probably looking for a miracle here!
Dan Jones
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I think Joel is on vacation for a week. You might still be able to get him on his phone.
Dan, you have to really use the mantra and not think about the feather touching the nose or the clicker going off. All you should be thinking about is pulling. Use the mantra keep pulling,keep pulling,keep pulling. Concentrate all your attention to pulling and when the feather touches you will shoot.
Call Joel, he can explain it really well. His number has been posted several times.
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I agree with cch. When I first started using Joel's technique it worked great but after several months I was releasing early and getting the heebie jeebies all over again so I called Joel and taked to him. I had missed the most important part - concentration on the pulling not the trigger. Once I stopped thinking about the trigger it all came together. Now I concentrate so much on the pulling and the mantra that sometimes I can't even remember the feather touching but the release is a surprise.
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Dan,
Please give me a call so I can you back on the right path. Cch said it perfectly but you must understand the WHY behind it all. 253-686-3623
JT
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Joel Turner: Thank you for the offer to call you. And thank you for all of your kind and generous efforts to help archers over the terrible target panic problem. It is truly a curse that hangs over archery. Unfortunately, I am hard of hearing so I try to avoid telephone conversations.
Cch:Flingblade: Thank you also for your replies to my post. It may be that my level of concentration is inadequate. However, I have never been very successful at attempts to count after reaching full draw, or running through a mental checklist, or repeating a mantra. Like other new things, I can do it for a time, but then it seems to be overpowered or erased by the involuntary release. I'd also say that my best shots occur when I'm not consciously aware of thinking anything while shooting. If I casually shoot an arrow across a field, letting it land where it may, it will be a relaxed, effortless shot. Tell me to shoot that arrow only after going through a 9 point mental checklist culminating with a tightening of the rhomboid muscles, and I'll probably release at 3/4's draw - or, worse, freeze at partial draw. However, I'll try to think anew about concentration.
The crux of my problem is a target. I can draw, hold at anchor and release beautifully if I'm not aiming at and trying to hit a specific target. I can do draw, hold and let down exercises to a fare thee well, and I can shoot nicely at a blank bale, but if I'm faced with a target and have the intent to shoot, WHOOSH - the arrow is gone. I've never had any transfer effect whatsoever from doing those exercises.
I suspect that the escape from my panic lies in letting go of the idea that the success of a shot is measured by where the arrow impacts a target, but I've found that much, much easier said than done.
Thanks again to all. Dan Jones
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hey dan have you tried the master of barebow bridge program? i started closer then 5 yards i started where the arrow cleared the bow by 6 inches or so and when you shoot 12 shots no problem move back to 5 yards
do it again and continue if you make a single mistake you HAVE to start over took me about a week of doing this 3X a day to burn it into my subconcious now everyshot feels like i rushed it but if i video tape myself im holding for 2 seconds my release has gotten alot better and the amount of back tension has increased and i recently just scored 218 on a 28 target 3d course due to it im up from mid 140's down to 218
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ericmerg: Thank you for your reply to my post. I am familar with Masters of the Barebow 3 & 4. I can do what you describe . . . as long as there is no target involved. After a few flinches at the start,I can draw and hold and let down at increasing distances. I can also do that pretty well on a blank bale as long as my eye doesn't find a spot to aim at. Unfortunately, as soon as there is any sort of target which I intend to hit, everything goes haywire. I believe that it was in Fred Bear's original Archers Bible that he described target panic as when the eye triggers the shot before the mind can control it. That's the gist of it, at least for me.
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start up close picking a spot and work your way back i did the same thing pick a spot 3" after the arrow clears the bow approx 2 yards away and do that 50 times do it intill you dont snap shoot it at that distance then take 1 step back and repeat 50 shots etc
keep doing this for a month increasing 1 step at a time once i hit 10 yards i jumped to 20 yards and found my mind had rewired itself i now hold for 2-3 seconds
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Dan,
I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I am in Montana right now away from home. I will keep this brief because I am typing on my phone. I am not a huge believer in the bridge program because it works in the subconscious. It trains the subcon and if that has worked for some people, more power to them. However, the fix lies in knowing how to concentrate and what to concentrate on during a shot. I have had 71 people call me at this point and a good number of them have been involved in the bridge program with little sustained success because the bridge program still allows the subcon to tell itself when to release. That fact alone is the natural progression of target panic. It is not natural for the subcon to hold the draw while in perfect aim. It is natural for the subcon to be as efficient as it can be. That is why it will always attempt to shortcut the system and either start to short draw or not be able to aim while at full draw. Again, for those that use the bridge with success, I commend you. I just don't think it is as robust of a shot as truly knowing how to concentrate on a movement that gets you to a psychotrigger.
I will write out the complete system again when I get to my computer. Also, I will apologize in advance to those archers that are using the bridge program with success.
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the bridge program just broke my mind from auto release i still use the mantra for getting proper back tension
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Dan,
I found a computer where I am staying!!! So here it is. The reason your nemesis keeps coming back is because you may not know how to concentrate. Analyze your first shots when you tried the feather to nose technique. The first few may have been ok, but what were you thinking about???? I would venture to guess that you were thinking about the feather and when it was going to touch your nose. If you are thinking about the trigger, you will never get to the trigger. You have to think about and do the movement that gets you to your trigger!!!! That is done by focusing the concentration through the use of the mantra. If pulling is the movement that gets you to the feather, then the mantra is KEEP PULLING, KEEP PULLING, KEEP PULLING...said in a revolving rhythm. You are talking directly to the muscles that are required for the action you are talking about (mantra). The mantra is the concsious mind's natural way of getting you to concentrate.
What are you thinking about when you shoot a blank bale shot? Blank bale shooting allows you more freely concentrate because there is no aiming involved. If there is no aiming, the subcon and the con are involved in all other aspects of the shot and they are working pretty well together. As soon as aiming becomes a factor, the subcon will naturally take over the entire shot and make it as efficient as it can. It will usually try to shortcut the system and leave you short drawing or frozen off target. When you have to aim a shot, what are you thinking about????? If you are thinking about anything other than a movement that gets you to the trigger, the subcon is left to shoot the entire shot for you, as effeciently as it can, not the best that it can. You have to remember that it makes no sense to the subcon to hold on a target, it just wants to get the body out of tension as soon as possible.
You really have to analyze your shot and recognize what you are thinking about during a shot. Only when you know what you are thinking, will you be able to control what you are thinking. The mantra is a natural tool to direct concentration. What you say, is what you think. Therefore, you are talking yourself through this shot using the proper neurolinguistic programs (action words) to make yourself concentrate on the movement that gets you to your trigger.
Any shot without a psychological trigger is a shot left to the subcon. And we know that subcon, in most of us, will shortcut the system in one way or another. There is an autopilot for most aspects of the shot, but not the shot activation. If you leave that part to the autopilot, he will fly you into the mountain every time.
With all of that said, your shot sequence is very simple but takes a major decision on your part. You have to make a decision that you are not going to shoot a shot unless it is perfect in concentration. Meaning, you have to know very intimately what is going through your mind at full draw. If it is not perfect, don't shoot the shot, there is no one with a gun to your head making you shoot the arrow. If the shot is not perfect in concentration, let down, and ask yourself, what was I thinking about during that shot. Once you start to recognize your thoughts, you will be on your way to controlling your thoughts. You should be able to stop a bad shot before it happens because you will recognize that something is not right, your thoughts are not correct in some way.
So your shot sequence is as follows: Draw back and aim. Once the aim is complete, start your mantra, KEEP PULLING, KEEP PULLING, KEEP PULLING... until the feather touches your nose or you hit whatever trigger you are using (clicker, tab sear, etc.). The rest of the shot takes care of itself. Notice I didn't mention the release. The release is triggered by the psychotrigger subconsiously. You shouldn't have to think about releasing. You are basically keeping the gremlin at bay and making him wait for the go signal. As long as you have made a decision to release when you feel the trigger, the shot will be away as a surprise if the trigger was hit as a surprise.
The trigger is the final goal of the pulling. The trigger should hit as a byproduct of your pulling. Your concentration, once again, is on the movement that gets you to your trigger. If you don't feel your muscles moving, THEY AIN'T MOVIN'!!!!! If you don't feel the back muscles moving or your elbow rotating, that means your mind is not in the right spot and you should let down.
So let's say you are in the middle of a shot. You have drawn back and aimed, so far so good. You start your mantra and you feel the muscles moving. You are thinking, keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, man when is this feather gonna hit!!!! That thought that went to the feather needs to be recognized and the shot needs to be let down. It will only take a few of these recognitions and you will really start to analyze the thoughts.
The mental mechanics along with the culmination of a psychotrigger is the most robust under stress shot that I have ever experienced. I have been through the gammut of target panic and all of the "Cures" that go along with it. It was not until I developed the use of neurolinguistic programming in the shot process that I truly have beaten this demon. But it takes discipline on the part of the shooter to recognize those natural tendencies of the subconcious gremlin to shortcut the system. Just as in the bridge system, if a shot is not perfect, you have to go back and do it again, but the bridge program does not tell you how to do it right the next time from a mental perspective. That is why the bridge program takes so long and the end result is a shot that is still totally controlled by the subcon.
This shot allows the subcon to do what it does best, aiming, stance, grip, and breathing. But it does not allow the subcon to tell itself when to release. Therefore, it has no way to shortcut the system. You are consciously keeping the gremlin at bay and making him wait for the "GO" signal to release.
As mentioned earlier, I have had 71 callers so far and I invite all of those with questions about this system to please call me. If the writing does not make sense or you have further questions on how to implement the system, I invite all archers to call. I am trying to kill the demon of target panic. It does not need to exist, but but target panic is NATURAL, that is why so many of us archers are plagued by its wrath.
I am starting a shooting school to present this program in a hands on, stress scenario based format that will leave archers with a tool to be self sufficient in diagnosis and treatment of any shooting problems that arise with target panic or form issues. So please keep that in mind if any of you would like me to come to your range or if you would like to travel to mine!!!
I hope this helps.
JT
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All,
Here is another thought about shooting instructors and schools. If you think about how instructors run their schools, they are usually talking their shooters through a shot. Instructors, or anyone for that matter that is talking someone through a shot, has immense power over the shooter. What the instructor is saying is where the conscious mind of the shooter will go. Whether the instructor knows this or not. That said, shooters usually shoot very well during a school but then those mental skills diminish quickly because the instructor did not tell the student how to talk themselves through a shot and the science that goes with those words. For example, there is a very good instructor that tells his students to "HOLD, HOLD" and then they are allowed to shoot the shot. That instructor, whether they know it or not, is making the shooter think about HOLDING. Also, the words start to become a psychotrigger, hence the archer releases on the D of the second HOLD. The problem is, the science is not explained and the shooter is not left with a tool that makes them self sufficient in knowing how to concentrate. After the school, the shooter starts to release on the H of second HOLD, and then the D of first HOLD, and so on until the first H never even gets said and the shot is gone before the archer wanted to release.
In whatever school someone chooses, they should be able to keep those learned skills going for the rest of their life with discipline. A school that leaves the shooter with a totally subconscious shot is teaching, in my opinion, a shot that will eventually be broken by stress. Many of the callers I have had have been to these schools and are now back in the same boat they started in, just now with better form. I am not trying to take away from other instructors, I am just saying that as instructors, we owe it to our students to leave them with skills that will allow them to be successful long after the school is over. The problems do not usually lie in the form realm, they lie in the mental realm. It doesn't matter how well you can aim and how good your form may be if you can't even get your bow to full draw or get your arrow pointed to the right sight picture.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone, these are just some thoughts that are running through my head. After all, the name of this thread is "TARGET PANIC REALITY CHECK"
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Where can I get a sear? I get way to much tension in my hand when I use the thumbnail and pinky nail.
Brandon
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Brandon, look back on this thread and look at the clicker that I attached to a tab. This works absolutely perfectly for me. Every time I shoot, I want to call Joel and thank him for this thread. This is the first time in 30 years that I have had complete control of my shot. By the way, I just shot a good bear about 3 weeks ago using Joel's method with the clicker tab and if I'm going to have any target panic problems, it will come up on a shot at game. I suppose because of the increased pressure that I put on myself. Anyway, I was able to make a perfectly executed shot on the bear. I felt like a kid at Christmas. If you need help making one of these tabs, send me a PM and I'll try to explain it better.
Thanks again Joel for this thread and your insight,
Bill Mason
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I will check it out. Thanks abunch.
Brandon
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Very well explained the problem JOEL
Very good job :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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GREAT news Bill...WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
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Joel, I just made my 1st tab sear yesterday using my Cavalier tab and made the sear out of a old Pacesetter rest metal launching arm,I think I finally found a psychotrigger that will work for me, I have been sick and afflicted with TP on and off since 1978, bought the Masters of the Barebow 4 last summer and your segment was a help and even better is this thread you started here, please keep the advice coming.
Would like to post the pictures of my tab, but I can`t figure out that photobucket if someone on this thread could post these pictures for me, I could email them to you,
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For Joel Turner: Thank you for your reply to my post, and thank you again for your efforts to help archers deal with the panic. Best wishes in your endeavors, Dan Jones
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Joel...thanks so much for this thread. I have been trying your system for about a year now since MBB. I have not mastered it but I can see that it is the ticket to beating the panic. I moved my feathers forward but tend to anticipate when they will touch my nose. Lately they have not been making it to my nose...
It seems my muscles "lock" up at full draw and with my hand against my face my hand does not slide back any further allowing the feather to come back. I am strong and not overbowed...
I really need to ramp up the emphasis in my mind of saying "keep pulling" I guess. The "tab" sear sounds like somthing I would really enjoy playing around with. Is the tab sear quiet?
Well I wanted to say thanks so much for all that you are doing.
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Joel,
Appreciate the conversation this evening, and as soon as I can get back out in the yard this week will try and employee your techniques, thanks
Hope to report back with a good testimony of progress to recovery :pray:
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Originally posted by Randy Morin:
Joel...thanks so much for this thread. I have been trying your system for about a year now since MBB. I have not mastered it but I can see that it is the ticket to beating the panic. I moved my feathers forward but tend to anticipate when they will touch my nose. Lately they have not been making it to my nose...
It seems my muscles "lock" up at full draw and with my hand against my face my hand does not slide back any further allowing the feather to come back. I am strong and not overbowed...
I really need to ramp up the emphasis in my mind of saying "keep pulling" I guess. The "tab" sear sounds like somthing I would really enjoy playing around with. Is the tab sear quiet?
Well I wanted to say thanks so much for all that you are doing.
I went through a bit of this myself at first. What fixed it for me was not anchoring too hard against the face.
Just lightly touching the corner of the mouth at anchor, makes it easier to pull through to the feather while using the mantra/concentration.
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Muley40, John Brant ask me to post his tab with the tab sear he modified for his Psychological trigger, here it is John. I’m looking to add the third picture in a few minutes.
(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy235/jalmay5th/tn.jpg)
(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy235/jalmay5th/tn-1.jpg)
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Here the last one...
(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy235/jalmay5th/tn-3.jpg)
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John, not sure why the photo came out so small will see if I can get them bigger if need be.
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Here they are a little bigger any bigger and it gets too graining.
(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy235/jalmay5th/tn-1-1.jpg)
(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy235/jalmay5th/tn-2-1.jpg)
(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy235/jalmay5th/tn-3-1.jpg)
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Thanks John for posting the photos,hope they help some members how to make tab sear,
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I would like to try a tab sear but don't have anything here that would work. It seems most are using the blades from a compound rest. Does anyone have an extra blade from one of these rests they would be willing to part with if I sent a s.a.s. envelope and a couple bucks?
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Flingblade,
I use a Speed Fin .023 or 015 from Specialty Archery. They are in the Arrow Rest Accessories link on the Specialty Archery Website. They are actually a rest arm from a Bodoodle Arrow Rest like a Pro Lite II or a Timberdoodle. The pictured sear is just like the one I designed. There are pictures of my sear placement further back in this post.
JT
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Randy,
Please call me and I can help you out. You are correct in saying that you need to work on the concentration part of the shot activation. Ask yourself on those shots that lock up, what are you thinking about. If it is not pulling, or you don't feel you muscles moving, your mind is in the wrong place. Let the shot down, analyze your thoughts, then try again. You have to make the decision that you are not going to shoot a shot unless it is perfect in concentration!!!!!
JT
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Thanks Joel. I just ordered the .015 and .023 fins. I didn't know they sold those separately. From your pictures it looks like I will need a very small short panhead bolt to attach.? Once the position is determined do you glue it to keep it from rotating? When using the tab sear do you bring the feather to your nose and hold there to maintain consistent draw length? Although I have had good success with the feather to nose I am looking forward to giving this a try! Thanks again!
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Joel,
Had time tonight to try what we talked about, and I can tell what confidence I had when talking to you on the phone does not materialize with bow in hand.
Same grembling are there and in force! I’m not able to use the feather to the nose as the trigger as I currently shoot split and the feather is not near my face much less my nose even when drawing far past my cheek seeing if it would work.
So I tried to use my middle finger as the trigger and anchor with the base of my thumb touching the bottom of my ear lobe and using the mantra keep pulling till the middle finger touch the corner of my mouth.
I would break down before it would touch and usually I could feel my thumb sliding past my cheek on the way to the ear lobe and this cause much resistance too keep pulling.
I did have trouble maintaining focus to keep telling myself to keep pulling but did recognize this.
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DP again :banghead:
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South ms,
You are just now starting to realize the mental battle that is going on in your head. If your feather is not close to your face, the easiest psychotrigger to start with is a clicker. Using your fingers on your face is an anticipatory trigger and will not work very well. Please call me back, I have some questions for you. Your answers will be very important to your success.
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Clickerman,
First, thank you for your thread. I have been following it and it has helped my struggles with target panic. I feel I understand the concept fairly well, but I am struggling finding the trigger. I have toyed with different types of glove triggers, but my fingers are so short that any attempt to press a button or snap attached to my hand is downright painful. Any trigger on my face is clearly an antcipatory trigger for me. My main question, it looks like I should try a clicker, but will I be stuck with that, or is there something to move on to after that. Could a clicker be attached to the bow handle and acivated with the bow hand with the same result as a tab sear? Thank you.
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Buzzcut,
Yes a clicker can be attached to the bow handle and activated with the bow hand. I have tried it and it works great if you can figure out how to attach it to your riser handle. Depending on the configuration of the handle, you can also make a tiny ridge on the handle where one of your fingernails is placed. You can snag the ridge with your fingernail, apply pressure, and it will pop off the ridge as a surprise, actually works pretty well. However the concentration, like always, must be placed in the movement that gets you to your trigger. So you mantra might switch to "Keep Pressing..." That is the mantra I use for my tab sear. You will essentially be putting a sear (sharp, hard edge) on the handle instead of on the tab. Call if you have any questions on how I set it up. 253-686-3623
Good Luck,
JT
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Thanks for your reply. I'm looking at different types of clickers to attach. I've actually found a small hair clip my wife uses, which might work quite well :)
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Joel,
I have a question about the tab sear. When I shoot and I am saying the keep pressing mantra sometimes I am conciously aware of the thumbnail popping off the sear and sometimes it seems the thumbnail pops off and the release goes at the exact same time. It seems more of a surprise release when it happens at the same time and I can't conciously remember the thumbnail popping off but I am concerned that I didn't actually get to the trigger and it is the dirty little gremlin trying to get back in the game. When I am aware of the trigger it is like a muzzleloader going off where you here the click and the bang separately. Which should I be striving for? Are you always conciously aware that the trigger happened? I was going to call you with this question but I thought others working with the sear may be interested in your response. Thanks.
Gary
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When I see joel shoot, it is just like a muzzleloader going off. You can hear the click and then he shoots. When I use it I have the problem of pushing it and releasing at the same time. I have gone back to the feather to my nose as that seems the most accurate to me.
Chris.
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Thanks Chris. I am going to keep playing with the sear for the next couple weeks but like you I may go back to the feather to nose.
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Flingblade,
When shooting a psychotrigger, the movement that gets you there should be your entire world. When I shoot a tab sear, I draw back and aim, then I put my thumbnail on the sear. Once it is attached to the sear, I am concentrating on pressing it so intensly that I can feel it moving, just like feeling your back muscles moving when pulling through a clicker. I just keep the movement going until it pops. The gremlin is waiting to release and the pop of the sear gives him permission to do so. If it pops too fast, I don't release. If it is taking too long, I don't release. I have made the decision to only shoot the shot if it is perfect in concentration. That perfection will be recognized with a time frame as well. If it pops too soon, I was not fully committed to the shot yet and I let down. If it is taking too long, I was committed to the shot, but something in my head is keeping it from popping. That too is recognized by a thought of "Man this is taking forever." I am able to recognize that thought and let down.
So it really boils down the committment to the shot. If it pops before committal, let it down. If it pops too long after committal, let down.
If you shoot a shot that is perfect in concentration, you will be able to recall specific details about the shot. I.E. the movement of your thumb, increasing pressure on the sear, and ultimately what you were thinking about during the shot.
So to answer your question, my release happens as soon as my mind realizes the sear popped. It is virtually instantaneous, as it should be with any psychotrigger!!!
JT
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Thanks for a very good explanation Joel. The "man this is taking forever" thought is a frequent one for me and I need to work on letting down when that happens. I am going to try a different tab as the Black Widow 3 under tab I am using is too soft. The leather bends as I press down and sometimes it doesn't pop at all.
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man this is taking forever
Thanks for posting this. It helps me to understand what Joel means when he says to be aware of what your thoughts are as you draw the bow. When I'm drawing a bow that I should be able to easily draw to full draw, and seem to hit a mental wall where I can't draw it any further, I'm thinking the same thing: "Man this is taking forever," or "Uh oh, I just hit the wall where I can't draw the bow any further."
The point I failed to realize until now is that those are also thoughts that I should be aware of. Up until now, I thought of them as just being reactions to things that are happening, and didn't really think of them as conscious thoughts. It also follows that if those are thoughts that I should be aware of, then there was probably a thought that immediately preceded it that was something like, "I hope I don't hit the wall." That is a thought too. Clearly if I wondered in the middle of drawing the bow if my fly was unzipped, I would identify it as a separate thought, because it is unrelated to drawing the bow. But thoughts that are an integral part of what I'm doing are also thoughts that are capable of being identified, and focused out if necessary, which is what I need to learn to do.
I believe what Joel is saying, and I'm just now beginning to get, is that if my mind were focused enough to where my only thought was pulling, I wouldn't have other thoughts like, "I hope I don't hit the wall," or "I just hit the wall," and maybe then I WOULDN'T hit the wall!
Sorry if it seems stupid that I wouldn't be able to identify my own thoughts. But possibly it might help someone else to know that you may be ignoring thoughts that could really be a part of the problem because they are so obvious that you just tune them out.
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ttt
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I would HIGHLY suggest Jay Kidwell's book too. Sports psychology applied to archery. Very similar insights to this post. I have a number of friends; pro, olympian, collegiate, athletes who use this same stuff applied to many disciplines. One of my good friends trains Pro Golfers in this stuff. I think Kidwell has seen 100% cure of TP with Olympic archers thus far. His book is the best $12 investment any bow hunter can make.
My 2C
Dan
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I thought I would post a picture of the tab sear I have been using with good results for the past three weeks. I started with the full length blade for the bodoodle rest and tried the same position that Joel uses but noticed I had to contort my thumb and the blade was tearing up my face. I cut the blade down to about 1/4" and tried eight different locations. I finally found the right location high in the center of the tab. That is what was comfortable for me. I like the fact that no further major muscle movement is required to activate the shot; however I do have to be more concious of maintaining back tension. That was automatic with the feather to nose. I am going to stick with this for the rest of this year and see how it works come hunting season.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/grswinton/th_tabsear.jpg) (http://s937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/grswinton/?action=view¤t=tabsear.jpg)
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flingblade, You can still use the feather to your nose as a draw check if they are still set up that way. When I use the sear I draw until my feathers touch my nose and them engage the sear.
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cch,
That's exactly what I've been doing since my arrows are already set up that way. It gives me another anchor reference but as I engage the sear I have noticed a tendency to creep as my mind is only thinking about pressing on the sear. This is the ticket though! At first I wasn't sure but when Joel posted that you could use a groove in your riser to pop your thumb nail off it all clicked. I realized it didn't need to be anything more than what I have in the picture. I shot a 3d course with a couple local tradgangers last weekend and was very happy with my control. I have become a process focused shooter more than a results focused shooter and that is exactly what I needed. I have found that my mind is quite undisciplined. It does take effort or mental discipline on every shot. I hope Joel is able to get some classes going.
Going to try a different link to get the full size picture.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/grswinton/tabsear.jpg)
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Fling blade,
Good work sir. Once you understand the mental mechanics and psychological triggers, the world of archery is yours to control. As long as you have the discipline to stop a bad shot before it happens, your process will be infallible and indefinite. Congrats on finding a sear location that works for you. I just traveled to Colorado to give some private lessons and I will be starting formal classes as soon as anyone will have me. I am trying to schedule one at ********* archery in the upcoming winter.
Take care ,
JT
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Nice. I'm close to ******* ... I think. :-)
Seriously, if it's where I think it is, I'm close.
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Flingblade, can u post a pic with your fingers/thumb in the proper location? I have been really lax on getting my tab set up with a sear and would like a couple ideas on where to start.
Bill
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Footed Shaft,
Here is a picture of when I start the draw
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/grswinton/tabsear1.jpg)
and when I am at full draw I raise my thumb slightly to hook my thumbnail on the sear
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/grswinton/tabsear2.jpg)
Hope this helps. As you can see this is the natural position for my thumb. With the sear lower on the tab I had to force my thumb down which put too much tension in my string hand. This position seems to be working well for me but I am sure everyone is different in that regard.
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Awesome, thnx for the pictures!! I just need to get on this project now :)
Bill
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I suffer from it bad, been working on focuseing more on my anchor and less on the shot, but still am haveing trouble. No one has ever taught me trad archery so there for I am trying to teach my-self, not alot of people around here to shoot with to watch me and help me!
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yekrut, Give Joel a call. He is very helpful and can give you some good tips to shoot better. His number is in previous posts.
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Joel has helped me more than anyone ever has in the last 50+yrs. His feather to the nose method works well once you have it down. I am fortunate to live near him so his knowledge of tuning and setup has come in very handy...PR
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TTT
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think I might call joel, my tp is all messed up!
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Very interesting thread. I have read all 15 pages, and understand the mental concepts of concentration and triggers better than ever. Thank you.
I have had issues with my subconscious controlling my release, thus not reaching full draw. I have shot many thousands of arrows, and have come to this conclusion: the best indicator of whether my shot will be successful is if I completely reach full draw. Of course that's because I let my subconscious dictate the timing of the release.
This is something that I didn't recognize as TP, because I considered TP to be holding too long.
As I understand it, I have been using an anticipatory psychotrigger, and thinking about the psychotrigger. I already began employing the mantra to focus on the motion and not on the trigger, and that helps, but I understand it is still anticipatory. I will try to find a non-anticipatory trigger.
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Wow!
Just found this thread. Interesting stuff. When I first watch this stuff in MBB 4 last summer I shook my head and said "thats why I'm shoooting traditional not a compound shooter." However after reading all this I have completely changed my mind. Non anticipatory Psychotrigger doesn't sound so crazy :)
I'm a stuck off target guy and try to move to the target and more often than not my shot goes off during the initial move or at least before settling on the target. My thought process is definately "dang, I'm stuck...I'm stuck...don't blow up". My words were killing me :)
I was no where near seperating aiming from my shot sequence/trigger.
Anyone made one of these sear out of something from a regular hardware store. Seems like there should be something we could find that would work.
Thanks,
Chris
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Clickerman, If you ever decide to start a school for target panic, please let me know. I need help badly.
JIM
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Jim- I know Joel (clickerman) is looking to do archery classes-if you have a club or group in the area he will probably come out. You can also give him a call-he has talked a lot of folks through his shot process over the phone. I'm not sure if he's home from elk hunting just yet, but he'll call you back once he has time.
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Thanks horsehairhunter. I'll try to give him a call later in the week. I belong to three clubs in the area but they are all finished with their shoots for the year. Do you think he would travel to Ohio? JIM
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Jim- I don't want to speak for Joel, but I do know he wants to start classes so I would encourage you to contact him.
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Jimbow39,
I just returned this morning from a successful elk hunting trip in Colorado. I will travel anywhere folks need some help with target panic. Give me a call anytime at 253-686-3623. I just got some voicemails from a few of you that I will attempt to return in the next few days. I have been pretty much out of cell service for quite a while on elk trips. But I am back in the saddle again with some interesting shot experiences that occurred on my elk trip. Talk to you soon,
JT
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This is a breakdown of my shot process. I concentrate on the spot, I use my window on my riser to look and line up the target. My arrow is pointing to the left of the target. I have only a slight rise of my bow arm when I do (Moebows)rotational draw method. I comeback and around then in to my anchor point. I shoot a cavalier tab and I push the top metal part against my cheekbone. I then touch my nose to my feather for a second anchor point. At this point my arrow has pivoted around and is faceing the target. I line up the arrow looking at the spot. My hand is loose as I draw around and I am thinking about my shoulders backs muscles popping out. When I have everything feeling right, I take my thumb and touch a small surgery finger plate that I attached to my cavalier tab. When I release, I am sure to pull straight back and my follow through is touching my thumb to my shoulder. I am thinking to my self pull, pull, pull. I use the touch of my thumb to the plate as my psycho trigger. I do not get my thumb on the plate until I am ready to shoot. So far, so good. I have not shot prematurely. I wonder if it will come back once I get use to the plate.
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Well..... I have it bad right about now. Trying to fight it, but having a hard time not loosing an arrow once I draw the bow. I get so uptight that shooting gives me a headache. I would love to feel in control and relaxed like olympic archers when they are shooting.
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Going to try clicking my thumb and pinkie nail tomorrow to see if that helps.
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After speaking with Joel this weekend I've experimented with some of his suggestions and found the 'feather to nose' to work best for me. The tab sear resulted in a dead release nada it of a collapse....
I shoot a long bow split finger. Has anyone found a configuration of feathers and contact point that works well for that style? I tried using my upper lip but that resulted in an overdraw and using my nose to the feather alters my head position and alignment at anchor.
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Has anyone tried a kisser button to the forehead? Been working good for me.
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Fellas,
We are all starting to experiment with psychotriggers now, good for you!!!!!! Just keep in mind that no matter what trigger you use, it is the concentration on the movement that gets you to the trigger that is key. Analyze what is going through your mind at full draw. Put the concentration where it needs to be with your words that say to yourself at full draw. DON'T SHOOT AN ARROW UNLESS IT IS PERFECT IN CONCENTRATION!!!!!! Once you start into the world of psychotriggers and mantras, you should get to the point where you are able to recognize whether the shoot is good in concentration or not. If it is good, commit to the shot and finish it. If something is not right, no one is forcing you to shoot that arrow. The thing that separates the elite archers from the rest of us is the ability to concentrate under stress and the ability to recognize that bad shot before it happens. I am still getting calls and I truly enjoy speaking to each and every one of you, please keep the calls coming!!!! 253-686-3623
JT
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Looking at all you member modifying your tabs, I decided to work on mine. I have access to all kinds of little plates and wires and surgery systems for hands and small bones. I have a few things in mind. Ordered some stuff online and will start to experiment after Joel emailed me. I will let you know how I will modify mine for placement and comfort.
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TTT, keep this up
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Come on everyone! Keep it up, I"m almost cured!
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Just an update, I am at 88 callers now and I am hoping for many more!!!! I just won my first tournament this weekend shooting with my thumb!!! I made a custom leather thumb tab and I am really enjoying that style of shooting, not sure if I will go back to my fingers!!!! Anyhow, I will be at the Kalamazoo Trad Expo in the A&H Archery booth. Stop on by and we can chat about shooting, tuning, target panic or whatever is on your mind.
Hope to see ya there
JT
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Not fair! No pictures of it, or how you brace the bow? Now... get back in here and finish what you just started.
:^)
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Jim,
I am trying to figure out how to post pics again!!!! I have been shooting this way for the last three months exclusively and it has been quite an adventure. I have done a ton of experimentation with thumb rings and tabs and have settled on a leather ring/tab combo. It is similar to the leather thumb tab sold by Three rivers but without the buckle and I had a piece of Cordovan sewed to the face. The one in the pictures is just a single piece of leather. For a psychotrigger, I have made a notch on the front of my grip that I set my middle fingernail into. When I want to activate my shot, I apply rearward pressure on my finger and it cleanly pops out of the notch to create my non-anticipatory psychological trigger. I used this trigger and a thumb ring made of pvc to harvest a dandy blacktail buck in late October. So I have already tested it under stress, and it worked great. Same mental mechanics with subconcious aiming and concentration on the movement/pressure applied to the finger in the notch. I am still trying to figure out the posting of the pics. I gotta go to work now so I will get them on here asap. Sorry for the delay.
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(http://s1242.beta.photobucket.com/user/stikbow10/media/Thumbtab_zpsd58051ec.jpg.html?filters[media_type]=image)
(http://s1242.beta.photobucket.com/user/stikbow10/media/Thumbtab_zpsd58051ec.jpg.html?filters[media_type]=image#/user/stikbow10/media/Thumbtab3_zpsa05e5f01.jpg.html?filters%5Bmedia_type%5D=image&_suid=135784152811804665777946848253)
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/Thumbtab3_zpsa05e5f01.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/Thumbtab2_zpsa945c67d.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/thumbanchor_zps73431cc9.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg526/stikbow10/Thumbtab_zpsd58051ec.jpg)
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I'm one of the 88 that called you. Thanks a bunch for taking the time to help us with this mental challenge. Although I haven't defeated it completely, you helped me understand the problem much better and the mental tools to overcome it.
Can a moderator make this thread a sticky? Of all the threads on here about this subject, this one has been one of the most helpful and insightful. I think it would greatly help others struggling with this particular mental aspect of this sport we love so much.
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I'm glad to see this at the top again. I completely fixed my TP issues after speaking with Joel on the phone. I shoot Hill bows split finger so eventually settled on my cock feather touching my upper lip as my psycho-trigger.
My shooting has progressed in leaps and bounds since in regard to accuracy but most importantly I have total control.
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Ed Q,
I hope they can make this a sticky. It has grown to a very large thread. If you haven't defeated the problem completely, give me a call for a little refresher so you can whip this thing for good. If anyone that has called me for advice is still having trouble, please call me back, so we can narrow the scope of the issue. It really boils down to the archer making the decision to not shoot an arrow unless they know it is perfect in concentration. The skill of concentrating under stress is much more difficult to master than shooting the bow physically. You have to know your mind!!!!!
Take Care and Thanks for the kind words from all!!!
JT
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Thanks, Joel. No need to call you again, at least not yet. I just need to remind myself of the mantra, to think about what I'm doing after I commit to make a shot, and then to let down when concentration isn't perfect. It's the last part I have trouble with mostly now, but I can now come to full draw and pause - most times. Before I couldn't even come to full draw before releasing prematurely.
A lot of my backyard practice now doesn't even involve shooting. I try to incorporate a form of Dr. Kidwell's mental drills - draw, aim, pause and let-down drills. When I do shoot, I go much more slowly than before. Most of my time shooting is now spent pre-draw - mentally imagining myself at each step - stance, grip, deep-hook, draw, come to anchor, back-tension, sight alignment, pause, smooth release. And then when I commit to shoot, I use a mantra to repeat each one of those steps and think or consciously focus/concentrate on doing them - kind of like how you explained. I still struggle with letting down, though, when I'm unsure if my concentration is perfect, but I figure that given the improvement I've made so far, I'll conquer it eventually. The mental imagery before each shot takes quite a bit of time, though, but if it helps, then I'll keep doing it. It's actually made me enjoy archery much more than before when I'd get so frustrated with target panic. Need to thank you for that!
I also remember what you said about the subconscious' struggle with the body at tension (full draw) and the subconscious need to release that tension (premature release). I usually shoot 35-45# bows. But I got some 60# limbs to help build back muscle strength and maybe even lessen the "body-at-tension" struggle with the subconscious. I didn't realize how weak I was when I first tried to pull 60#! I still struggle drawing those limbs, but it's much easier now than it was before.
Anyway, if I begin to stumble in my journey towards defeating TP, I'll give you a call again! Thanks!
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I had not realized that target panic was such a huge issue for many. Especially not the fact that a handful of fellow Tradgangers have been dealing with it for years and years.
Besides working on it yourselves, don't forget to note if/when you see fellow archers showing the same tendencies. First thing to do when you find yourself in a hole, is to stop digging! Unfortunately, one self is not always the right person to point these things out...
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I recently switched from off the shelf and split finger to elevated rest and 3 under. I shoot cock feather in, so when I draw the northernmost hen feather touches between my upper lip and nose. Same anchor point (index in corner of mouth), but I think the feather creates a double anchor for me and I just seem to be more relaxed shooting this way now. Whatever works is what matters. If I draw to my middle finger at the corner, that same feather hits the tip of my nose.
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I shot with Joel this past weekend and had a great time. He is always helping me with my shooting. I put a clicker back on as I was having trouble with the feather touching my nose. I think I have to master the clicker before any other method is tried. Joel is a great teacher. His boy just turned 6 and he is shooting with a clicker and is grouping arrows at 20yds better than a lot of guys I see shooting at the butts. Just wanted to bring this back to the top as there is so much good info.
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Joel,
I too was one of the 88. I've been working on this since September. Without a doubt this has been the best thread I have read as well about the subject. I'm not sure if it would have made the impact if I hadn't already tried some of the other "fixes" and seen how much the mental mechanics means. I certainly can notice if I'm not 100% concentrating on what I'm doing. I start with some form work with the mantra but without any target. Then I start my actual shooting session. That seems to work best. My shots are so much more controled and I don't have those wild flyers where I was jerking over to the target from off target like I used to experience.
My only issue that I haven't figured out completely involves the keep pulling phase. I'm on target but then I find that as I pull/push towards my psychotigger that my shots often end up a bit high. Its as if my bow arm actually raises when my elbow straighten. Not sure if my brain just has to re-adjust by sight picture.
Still they are still in the kill zone and I feel so much better. I'm using the back of my broadheads (simmons treeshark) as my psychotrigger. I haven't gotten the feather on my nose perfected for field points but I'm going to do that next.
Joel thanks again for all the help. Now can you do as much for my elk hunting skills as you have my shooting? I'm going on an elk hunt this fall and I need to figure out how to get a bull to stand broadside instead of head on at 20 yards like I've had 2 of them do in the past. :)
Thanks,
Chris
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Chris,
I can do equally as much for your elk tactics as I can for your shooting. I have killed 8 bulls in the last eight years and I am a 2x World Elk Calling Champion in the Pro Division. We will have to take this discussion to another thread or PM me for details. Good work on your shooting!!!!!
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(http://i.imgur.com/kIPAlwW.jpg)
This is my version of the clicker.
Just bend the baseplate of an ordinary limb clicker to fit the contour of the handle. The base is aluminum and bends easely. And use thick double sided tape to fit on riser. I have a rubber sleeve fittet over the blade so not to cut my finger on the sharp clicker blade.
And you just set it of with your finger when ready to shoot. Works great with Joels system to beat target panic. Thank you Joel for this most excelent system to beat target panic. It has worked wonders for my shooting.
Øyvind
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Rendalen,
Great work!!!! Just make sure you put your concentration in the movement that makes your trigger activate. I imagine with your system, it is pressing the clicker blade,,,,awesome!!! Continue to analyze what is going through your head during the pressing, so that you can practice and strengthen your concentration in that movement. It is great to see people coming up with their own triggers once they understand the mental mechanics behind psychological triggers. Press on my friend!!!!
JT
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I just had caller number 95 call me from the other end of the country!!!! Keep the calls coming folks, we will beat target panic together.
For those of you in the Michigan area, I will be running a Target Panic and Shot Control Clinic in Marne MI on Sunday May 5th at the A&H Archery Shop. It is limited to 10 people and it is only a one day course. I will also be filming a Target Panic and Shot Control DVD the same weekend. The DVD will be available through A&H Archery probably sometime in June or July. I will keep everyone posted!!!!
With so many people calling me, I have formulated a list of questions that have been consistent will most if not all of the callers. I am hoping to answer all of these questions in the DVD. The clinic and the dvd will cover:
* Target Panic causes and myths
* Thought Analysis during the shot
* Subconscious Aiming (What it really means to pick a spot)
* Shot Separation (The 2 jobs in a shot)
* Concentration shifting
* The use of Neurolinguistic Programming
* The use of Psychological Triggers
* Concentration Practice
* Complete knowledge of the Mental Mechanics
* How to achieve shot control under stress
* The skills of diagnosis and treatment of any mental shooting problems that may arise
* Bow tuning (Shelf or elevated rest)
* Broadhead tuning and the Single Bevel Advantage
Keep the calls coming so I can answer as many questions as possible in the clinic and dvd. I have learned so much about teaching this subject since Masters of the Barebow 4 that I wanted to do another dvd to really drive the message home regarding how to beat target panic. Larry at A&H Archery has been fantastic in making this happen, so to him and to all of you, I am eternally grateful.
Talk to you soon,
JT
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i have tried to start this process! I shoot a glove and i am struggling to determine what to use as a psychotrigger. Do you or does anyone sell a tab sear or glove sear or ??? Need to find something that will work. I have to think someone has done this. I will try to call you to work thru this but if you have ideas until we talk i would appreciate it.
Thanks
Mike
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I shoot a glove and ended up putting a strap on my bow grip. I took a leather strap and added a metal snap to it. It is wrapped tight on the grip. When shooting i rest my pinky finger nail on the edge of the snap and use the mantra keep pulling. When my pinky slips off i shoot. Hope that makes sense. I will try to post some pics tomorrow.
Brandon Bell
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I installed the clicker talked with Joel a couple times and all I can say is WOW!! I am back!!
Brandon I would love to see those pics.
U can text them to me if easier
717-490-4555
Thanks
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Here is the strap with snap on it.
(http:// [IMG]http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a618/bbell220/2013-04-07_10-34-21_579_zps0fd688ab.jpg )[/IMG]
Here is one with my pinky nail on it.
(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a618/bbell220/2013-04-07_10-36-57_369_zps51d55a9f.jpg)
The snap is nice and smooth and my nail seems to pop right off. Just have to find the right spot. Hope the pics work.
Brandon
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(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a618/bbell220/2013-04-07_10-34-21_579_zps0fd688ab.jpg)
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Joel,
Can't thank you enough for your post and DVD. I have watched your DVD over and over probably ten times and more watches to come. This last year has been hard. I got worse rather than better even though I practiced regularly. Seems like target panic just suddenly took hold and I could not work through it as hard as I tried. Your DVD had helped me understand what was going on and a way to train my mind differently. After watching your DVD my shooting became more consistent immediately and now I am seeing continual improvement by applying your concept. Again, thanks. It is a very generous offer you have made.
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If u have not tried this -DO IT! It works. Still have lapses but Wheni do it right it is awesome. Many more good shots then bad ones. There is hope....
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I was down shooting with Joel today. He is a great help with shooting and overcoming target panic and tuning. He was setting up a bow for a guy who use to own an archery shop. He is really excited about all of the people that are calling him, so keep it up.
Chris.
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Caller #104 here. Thanks for putting a derailed train back on the tracks today Joel! Good luck with your first clinic this weekend and I look forward to your video.
Rob
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Caller #105 checking in, the main purpose of my call to Joel was to strengthen my shot process and let me tell ya he has info that can help you build a mentally strong/stabile shot that is repeatable shot after shot. Makes you think were your mind is during the shot and helps puts concentration were it is needed most. We all know archery is 90-95% mental and the following is physical. Thanks for your info Joel.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Someone asked me if I'd looked at this thread, and I said no. I don't get into target panic chat cause I've never had it and don't want to.
But I will say this,...I shoot the exact opposite. I am totally immersed consciously into aiming, and my subconscious totally runs the shot. I'm aiming before I ever start drawing my bow.
Some of the best shots I've ever made at game I was so immersed in the hunt and the shot window opening, I don't even remember drawing the bow.
Interesting how some folks do things one way, and others do it in a completely opposite manner. I guess that's why we have folk figuring the trajectory to the moon, and other folks flying the rocket....glad they don't swap just before ignition.
No, I didn't read all the thread....after just a few posts....I panicked!!! :D :D :D
I have to say that I agree with Terry here. As a hunter, I could care less about scores on targets. I want to hit an animal in a certain spot, and that IS the only thing that matters to me. I don't see how aiming subconsciously will ever feel okay to me if I am shooting at an animal. In my mind, I owe it to whatever creature I hunt to make a perfect shot and I would be ashamed of myself if my thought process were one that did not focus on what I wanted to hit.
That said, unlike Terry, I have struggled with target panic, which always manifests itself as "short drawing" and when it goes away, I am shooting without any conscious input on form from my brain. Everything is focused on where I want to hit.
I guess I am reluctant to relegate aiming to subconscious thought. When I played baseball I was always best when I "got in the zone". My thought went entirely AWAY from my mechanics, and all focus was on making the pitch, or squaring up the ball and driving it into a gap. My mechanics were never a focal point. Is it really that different here? When results are all that matter I was trained to focus on those results. Practice was for mechanics, and game time was for performance.
I guess my questions are these: How can you be sure of where you will hit if that is not what you focus on? How do you make snap shots when your conscious mind is involved at all? If I could learn to perform at a high level in baseball by taking my mechanics OUT of the thought process, why can I not do that with a bow?
I don't mean to be aggressive, and I apologize if I come across that way. I spent many years learning how to perform at a very high level as an athlete, and now I am confused because this whole theory is completely opposite of my experience.
Thoughts? Comments? Am I just crazy?
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up
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Joel
I really want to give your method a try. It makes perfect sense . This is exactly how I think when shooting a rifle. My focus is 100 percent on a slow smooth trigger pull that doesn't anticipate release. Aiming takes care of itself. That's hard with a couple pound trigger. I mean mental torture some days to not get close and yank. I know you're on to something here. Thanks for the help. When is the dvd coming out?
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Malachi, Your brain aims really well on its own. It makes your eye center things on its own. If you have ever shot with a peep sight you will see that it will automatically center it. After you have learned to shoot with what ever sight picture you like your brain will set it up and center it on its own. If you give Joel a call he has some drills that will prove that to you. I will say that using a trigger of some sort has been dificult shooting fast like moving targets. I used the clicker the first time shooting carp and had good results. I had a much higher hit ratio. But there were many that I could not get to the click before the fish spooked or went into brush. I still practice snap shooting for fast moving targets just to keep that in my bag. But I am getting much more consistant shooting with the clicker, and the anxiety I would get in pressure times is mostly gone and I can drown it out with the mantra.
Chris.
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Chris,
a couple things you said stand out as the main problems I have with this idea.
"your eye centers things on its own"
But a broadside deer would be gut shot if I hit it in the center.
"there were many that I could not get to the click before the fish spooked or went into the brush" As I said, I am only concerned with hunting. Any audible click would alert my prey anyways, and sometimes you only get a split second to shoot.
I want to be able to shoot at any time the situation requires after hitting anchor, not when I hear a click. Is that possible with this method?
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Malachi,
Joel teaches that the concious mind has two jobs in the shot process. The first is drawing to anchor and aiming. This is where you pick your spot and set your sight picture with whatever aiming method you choose. You don't waste time with this job. As Joel says "get it done". This is why you wouldn't shoot midship on a deer. The second job of the concious mind is focused concentration on the action that gets you to your trigger, not on the trigger itself or aiming or anything else. This is where the sub-concious mind takes over holding the aim. I was a short drawer and instinctive snap shooter before target panic and now I use the feather to nose trigger. This shot process is something you have to experience to understand and you won't experience it until your concious mind is concentrating completely on the action that gets you to your trigger. Before using Joel's system 20 yards was a long shot for me. I now regularly shoot at 40 and 50 yards. If in stressful shot situations you are able to get to full draw and happy with your accuracy then you don't need to use Joel's system. Just my 2 cents.
Gary
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I have never heard of anyone that had an animal spook because of the clicker going off. You can also quiet them down so you can hardly hear them. Larry Jones has hunted with one for as long as I can remember. Like flingblade stated, you pick your spot just like you do now but when you are at full draw you put your attention on the action it gets you to your trigger. I am using the clicker and focus with my mantra to Keep pulling until I hear the click. After I have this down I will probably try some of Joel's other methods that are more tournement accepted.
If you practice I would bet you could shoot really fast using a clicker or something else. Joel can shoot in about 2-3 seconds if he wants to.
I use to shoot really well with snap shooting. I even beat Joel several times shooting like that. The problem I was having was that I would short draw in some situations. Sometimes short drawing by 6". I would also have a tendacy to shoot over animals because I would rush just a little and my timing was off. But when relaxed and I had time to go through my whole process I would shoot just fine, including double lunging a deer at 50yds with two people wathching from a landing site of a clear cut. So I have been going back and forth with the way I wanted to shoot and I really like the way Joel shoots when the pressure is on. Now that I have changed the pressure is off for the most part and I think I can get it to the point that I don't care what the shot is or who is watching I will treat it just like any other shot. It doesn't matter if it is 5yds or 50yds or in front of 50 people, you still do the same thing.
Chris.
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Thanks for the reply Chris. That makes a lot more sense now. I will have to give it a try.
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Trumpkin,
I will be coming to Montana on the 4th of June. Coming over to do some gopher shooting with my longbow. Give me a call before jumping into this system.
JT
253-686-3623
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Some of you are using the feather to nose trigger within this thread. I want to clarify what you guys have found both good and bad about using this type of psychotrigger. I use a simmons broadhead as a drawcheck/psycho trigger. When it hits my knuckle on my bow hand as my trigger during most of my practice sessions and for hunting. It has worked great but they frown on using broadheads during 3D tourny's so I have to find a system that will work for me when I'm at a shoot. The feather to nose seems to work at this point as I'm struggled with anything on my bow hand as it seems to screw up my concentration.
Thanks,
Chris
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I'm switching to the feather-to-the-nose style this year. It takes a little time to determine the proper nock throat to feather distance for you, but once you have that figured out, it works great. I've shot with a release for the past 4 hunting seasons (TP), so this will be my first hunting with the new style. Good luck!
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I just left Joel in Montana. My wife and I were there shooting ground squirrels with Joel and his wife and son. I really got to test out his system shooting the little critters. I have no worries about shooting moving animals anymore. I shot a squirrel at about 20yds and didn't kill it and it started going for his hole and I had to get an arrow on the string really fast and I pulled up and started my mantra Keep Pulling, Keep Pulling and click and I put an arrow right behind the shoulder while he was on the move with Joel looking on from above. I think he was proud.
Joel also gave my wife a crash course of his method and she was able to shoot a few squirrels also. One on video and one while Joel was standing right beside her. She normally gets real nervous shooting with Joel because he is real good. But she kept with her mantra and click Bam she smacked the little critter at about 18-20yds. She is very excited about this as she puts it, "Man that makes it easy"
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I tried to use the BH touching my finger and it worked for a while. I really do not like it. It seems that the touch on the trigger finger of my left hand just aggravates things. The other thing is being overbowed. I am just stubborn. I tell you I am shooting a lighter weight longbow and using something else that is not the point or the feather as the psychotrigger. I just got back from stup shooting and my last shot I nailed a leaf at about 40 yrds. In the last 3 day I have shot better with a lighter bow and use of a psychotrigger, than I have in the past 2 years! I am done with heavy bows.
Shoot the shot all the way through, never give up, and allow the shot to happen.
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Chris Kinslow,
I have been using the feather to nose for awhile now and the only problem I have had is it is not as definite as some other triggers. Sometimes after the shot I'll think it touched but really not sure. With a clicker it either clicks or it doesn't. You have to trust that you will know for sure and keep pulling. Can also be a problem in cold weather when your nose is numb. Joel suggested splicing in a section of vane at the end for a more solid feel in cold weather. Now I have to learn how to splice. I haven't used the clicker because I have had problems in the past with the clicker cord snagging in brush when hunting but I think I am going to order one and try it on one of my target bows. Good luck with whatever trigger you choose.
Gary
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Flingblade, If you mount the clicker on the upper portion of the top limb you won't have much string there. Mine are about 10". So far I haven't had any trouble with snagging, but I haven't gone through anything really thick yet.
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Flingblade, instead of splicing a piece of vane onto the back of a feather, why not just fletch with one vane and two feathers. The vane that will touch your nose shouldn't affect your arrow flight.
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cch,
I know you have tried the feather to nose and tab sear. Do you like the clicker better? I tried the clicker many years ago before I learned Joel's system and didn't stick with it long. Maybe I'll give it another try.
knobby,
I'll give that a try. I'm also going to set up one of my older bows with an elevated rest so I can use all vanes for wet weather hunting.
Gary
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Yes, I do like the clicker the best. I think it is the easiest to use. Once you have mastered shooting with that and understand how to concentrate on the movement, then you can easily experiment with other methods. I am committed to using it for a full year and then will try some other things. If you are good at using a gun then a tab sear might work for you. I think I will go back to the feather to nose because that will be legal at all shoots and it is the same movement as the clicker.
Chris.
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Been shooting with the clicker for a two weeks now and what a difference. I am like a zen master in comparison. My mind is quiet an I am starting to drill stuff like i would as a teenager. My shooting is much slower now and I wear out a lot faster. 55 lbs feels like a lot more weight now that I am in control and slowly pulling through to conclusion. The time I am holding on target has increased and my mind doesn't spaz like it was. After 30 shots I am spent. My bow arm shakes and after a while one slips before the clicker and I know it's time to quit. I will shoot a couple completely fatigued with my eyes closed, focus on pulling and hang it up. All I can say is its working. I may kill something again after all. Thanks Joel. I should have tried a clicker years ago but had this stigma in my head.
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Sloaf, Make sure you give yourself at least 20 seconds between shots. This will let your muscles regain full strength. I know I have a problem with shooting arrow after arrow and tire myself out.
Chris.
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Hey guys I have tried all of these methods. experimented with many more that have popped into my head. The one that has worked for me and has been working since January is this: With my bow hand I start with my index finger pointing toward target. When I am locked on I slowly curl my index finger inward untill it touches the tip of my thumb. When it my finger and thumb touch I release. It is alot like the ridge on the bow handle method that Joe is currently using but I can switch between bows and I don't have to mount anything on my self bows. Its very simple and easy to activate.
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Joel I am going to buy and watch MBB4 first, but is the offer still open to call you? read the first 6 pages or so of this thread and i think this might be my cure. I only started traditional archery in November 2012, but I was doing great for a while. rarely missed a 3d target and was shooting 220-230 in a 300 round. for the last three weeks i can't get to anchor and i can't let down. last 3d shoot i missed 8 out of 30 targets. 8 out of 30! flat out missed, sometimes by feet. almost reluctant to shoot 3d because its getting expensive to break so many arrows. so first, today, im going to go home and try what i learned from the first pages of this thread. making the "draw", "aim", and "keep pulling keep pulling" three different things, and speak them aloud sounds like good medicine. is that dvd you were talking about available yet?
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Originally posted by Lee Lobbestael:
Hey guys I have tried all of these methods. experimented with many more that have popped into my head. The one that has worked for me and has been working since January is this: With my bow hand I start with my index finger pointing toward target. When I am locked on I slowly curl my index finger inward untill it touches the tip of my thumb. When it my finger and thumb touch I release. It is alot like the ridge on the bow handle method that Joe is currently using but I can switch between bows and I don't have to mount anything on my self bows. Its very simple and easy to activate.
When I was a teen shooting field archery, there was one of the non-sight shooters in Texas that used his pinky finger as a psychotrigger. He would draw to full draw, and at anchor slowly bring his bowhand pinky down onto the riser. When it touched the arrow was loosed. The man could shoot! I remember he was a bodybuilder and shot 2117's with like 2 1/2"s of arrow sticking out in front of the bow, and big feathers.
Another archer shoots with the cricket or clickety clack clicker mounted on the back of the bow. by the pinky. He presses on the clicker with his pinky at full draw and shoots when it clicks.
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Dragonheart, Yeah that is essentially what I am doing. It has been working great for me because the trigger is so easy to activate. I was having trouble reaching the psychotrigger on some methods because they required to much physical effort to make them go off even with concentration.
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So long as the psycho-trigger is without warning and a surprise break of the shot. I believe that is the key.
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Fellas,
The offer to call me is still available and will always be available. If you don't reach me just leave a message and I will call back at the earliest convenience.
Thanks,
JT 253-686-3623
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Just want to update... it's been almost a year since I talked to Joel Turner. Right now I am still TP free and shooting better than ever. I plan to continue to work on the things he spoke to me about and NEVER have TP again!
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ttt
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I never considered my random failures in execution "Target Panic" as I defined the term. However, talking with Joel about my shot and implementing a "mantra" term he suggested has taken my shooting to a new level. I am so looking forward to getting a copy of his new DVD. If he is ever close to Kansas City, I will find a way to attend his clinic. Listen to what this man has to offer....it is solid!
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I'll second that KC missouri clinic idea. Might even be able to round up a few other candidates. If I wasnt already committed for this weekend I would go to denver for the clinic. Joel, why dont u make it a long weekend and head over to missouri after your colorado trip?
CK
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Ok I think I have manifested a new form of TP for me, I've just been in denial of it. When I draw I get to anchor without problems but my arrow is pointing above the target so I swing down and release or I get stuck high. My problem seems to be I can't get settled into my sight picture to really start my mantra. How do I get over that hump so I can comfortably start the mantra.
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Longstick,
Please call me at 253-686-3623. I will get you squared away.
JT
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Joel, Thanks much for the phone call today, a true honor to speak to quality gentleman as yourself. I went out after dinner and started to apply the principles we talked about and especially the part of linking the mantra to actually feeling the muscles pull was a real aha moment for me. Thanks again. I still have plenty of work to do by gradually adding stress to my shooting but I finally feel I have something tangible to work with.
Hope you get a clinic here in NY, hopefully with the numbers of NY/NJ TG members we have here we can set something up for you.
PS I forgot what number I was that called you, lol
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I will be calling you soon Joel. I have been fighting TP for way too long. What brand clicker do you recommend for a bow?
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I recently realized that my arrows are the perfect length to add a little rectangular piece of leather between the insert and the point. At full draw, with a little expansion via back tension, it hits my finger and the arrow is away. Maybe it isn't exactly what you've been preaching Joel, but the idea came from this thread. I have never shot better in my trad career. Thanks.
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Turkeyfootgirl,
I would recommend the klickety klick, because the blade seems to be more robust than the cricket.
Trumpkin,
Awesome thinking, that type of psychotrigger has been used for hundreds of years in Japanese kyudo archery, where the point is built up bigger than the shaft so when the archer pulls back tension, they feel the edge of the point on their knuckle and release the arrow. Great idea!!!
JT
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I sat in on Joel's clinic (put on by RMSG)this week end. It was the BEST money I've spent to improve my shooting!
(I have taken some of the best clinics out there.)
The other coaches spent the majority of the time on form. I had good form, but the mental game left a LOT to be desired. Joel and Matt (Joel's brother) showed me how to have a plan before I start the shot, and how to only shoot a perfect shot (mentally)and let DOWN on a shot that was less than perfect.
I just wanted to thank Joel, Matt and Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear
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I setup one of my bows with a clicker and started using the mantra to get to the psychotrigger, emphasis transferring the concentration to pulling right after I get to anchor and set sight picture......boy what a difference.
And I love Trumpkins idea, especially when using my hunting bow setup.
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I like this setup because it can ONLY be triggered by expansion, through back tension. I actually have to draw a final quarter inch to have the broadhead hit my hand.
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I think I finally managed to get my clicker set up right yesterday and started using the "keep pulling" mantra after I got to my anchor and let me tell you, it absolutely wore me out! Between my shoulders blades as sore as heck today. I let one or two fly last night without the click because I couldn't get the expansion. I told myself this was a no-no and if I couldn't get the click from the expansion I had to let the bow down. I'll definately get stronger when using this technique, along with my shooting improving. I have to say I shot exceptionally well last night until the fatigue set in.
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I talked to Joel on the phone earlier after he sent me his phone number in response to a thread I started yesterday about my mantra triggering my release. I have struggled with mild TP for a very long time, but about a 5-6 weeks ago it really grabbed me. I couldn't even look at my target without releasing. I tried to "fix" myself with no success. I finally found this thread and bought MBB4 and watched Joel's segment very closely.
I had gotten to the point where 10yards was my maximum shot, and then it was "iffy".
When I tried to implement what he teaches, I would release as soon as I started the mantra, keep pulling, keep pulling..... I did position a feather to pull to, but the problem was, I had way too many things going through my mind.
On the phone Joel reinforced the importance of concentration on only one thing, and the importance of letting down when any other thoughts come into your mind or when you are no longer pulling.
He asked me to shoot a shot at twenty yards when I had the phone on speaker. I was obviously a little stressed, but went ahead and followed his instructions. The shot was perfect, not where the arrow hit, but in concentration. I drew, aimed and used the mantra to keep pulling until the feather hit my nose and I released. There were no other thoughts in my mind. He asked me to do it again, and I did exactly the same.
Joel spent a lot of time of the phone with me explaining his approach. He gave me a direction to go in, and a confidence that I will overcome this TP and get back to shooting well. Do I expect to have to work at it, of course, but just having the mind set that I can get back that part of my life that means so much to me is priceless.
Thanks so much Joel
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I got a big portion of my life back with just a phone call! I now have a clear picture of what my shot to be and how to execute that shot. When it's not right I now have the ability to let down instead of shooting bad arrows all evening hoping for the best.
My wife also says a big THANKS! She hasen't seen me this happy with my shooting in a long time.
I'm excited to watch the DVD!
Thanks Joel!
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Even though there's a separate thread devoted to Joel's DVD, if you've read this far in this thread and haven't called Joel personally, and are still struggling with TP (be it holding off target, can't get to anchor without releasing, or can get there and can't release) then spending a half an hour viewing his video will put you on the path to conquering TP.
There's no substitute for good form and a good mental shot routine, but Joel teaches you how to focus, what to focus on, and most importantly what NOT to focus on that causes TP in the first place.
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Just thought I would bring this back to the top in case anyone had any TP come up while hunting. I shot my second deer with Joel's method and it works really well in hunting situations.
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I had TP so bad I sold all my trad bows. Gave up. I couldnt hit a 5'x5' target at 10 steps. Its so discouraging. Just before that I was stump shooting and let go of the string at about 24". I can draw a full 28 if Im inside and know Im not gonna shoot but if Im in front of a target where I know Im gonna shoot I cant hit full draw and my bow arm shakes all over the place. Funny thing is it doesnt happen with a compound. Only a trad bow. Wish it was just the opposite.
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Keep working on it guys. It will take time to re-program. I'm shooting two different but similar longbows now...one with a clicker and one without a clicker. Doing well with both but still hitting a wall about 1/2" from anchor (corner of my mouth). I really have to struggle but seem to get it done and execute the shot.
I just keep in mind that every arrow shot must be a good arrow. If not let up and try again...
Ron
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fixing to order a 25# Sage to work with. Hope it will do the trick
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We should probably get some updates on how everyone is doing....I'll start.
I still have the clicker installed on my #50 hunting bow. Shooting all kinds of distances with the clicker going off on almost every shot. My accuracy and form has been much improved compared to the snap shooting that I have been doing for years. Can tell when I start to get tired but that's when I concentrate the most on keep drawing and achieve full anchor. I have also been shooting a secondary bow that is similar in design but without a clicker. Seems my shooting is about the same. Not ready to pull the clicker off just yet. I will catch myself once in a while trying to snap shoot and short draw. Constant struggle with the gremlin but much improved.
Ron
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Joel
Just wanted to thank you for the help. My shot is a controlled shot and release now. And is improving daily. Not perfect yet but getting close.
Thank you and Happy Holidays.
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Couple of thoughts on Target Panic....
As I now realize there is no magic solution in defeating target panic. I tried just about everything. Most things that I tried only worked temporarily. I had to narrow the shot sequence down and where I needed the most focus to overcome my particular form of target panic. I would draw and hit a wall about 3 inches from my anchor point which was the corner of my mouth shooting split finger....
What I found in the end is that I had to really concentrate on coming to full draw and establish a solid anchor. The way I got there is by using a clicker and really concentrating on coming to full draw each and every shot and let down if the shot sequence didn't feel right. I didn't care about accuracy or anything else because I knew that would come if only I could get to full draw consistently.
For several weeks I felt as if I was going through a full fitness program both physically and mentally....it literally wore me out. Struggled at times but I knew that I had to repair this area of the shot sequence and kept in mind that this was not going to happen immediately. The aiming part of the shot sequence and good form was not much of an issue for me and with a solid anchor now everything is coming together.
I believe you have to clearly identify the area where you are having the problem and work on that area first. I think too many people try and do too many things at once. The key here is to be patient and don't expect overnight results. Also keep in mind the end result is confidence in your shooting and more importantly control of the shot.
Thanks to Joel for his help. Joel really understands target panic. By talking to him on the phone this was a much easier process for me to work through. I'm not there yet but making good progress.
Ron
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I am trying to transition from the clicker that I shot for a full year to feather to the nose. I just took it off yesterday. I shot a few arrows and am doing ok. It is not as easy as with the clicker. I need to go out today and do some work with my eyes closed and get the feel of the feather touching. Yesterday I had to let down about 50% of the time. If I still have issues with this style in a week or so I am putting the clicker back on. I really liked hunting with it this year.
Chris.
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I thought I had the target panic beat for good but I was wrong. After many hundreds of arrows shot at bag target at 5 yards, with distance gradually increasing out to 45 over a period of a few months (with the clicker not clicking only 14 times) it (tp) has been resurrected by only 2 300 vegas shoots. The good news is it hasn't creeped back into my stump shooting and small game hunting. It looks like the next time I'm shooting at a target face it will be from a few yards away. Probably with a mechanical release on for a while to prevent premature shots and reprogram my brain to not shoot before I aim.
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Brent - I think shooting at further distances and working through the stress is the key to addressing target panic. I can shoot all day long at 5-10 yards and come to anchor every time with the clicker engaged on every shot. Its when the shot distance widens that the gremlins over take my ability to come to full draw. I shot indoors the other night at the local club without a clicker and felt in control after fighting target panic for months and possibly years.
Ron
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It sounds like you are more focused on the aiming than on the pulling. When you get to the point that your focus is not on pulling you have to let down. The more you do this the better you will be at controlling the shot. Just remember to let your aim happen naturally and only focus on pulling. Use the mantra when you are having issues. Give Joel a call and he will get you straightened out.
Chris.
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Thankyou,thankyou,thankyou Joel Turner,Ihave tried everything there is out there to get rid of my target panic including spending $300.00 to get hypnotized twice. In the 10 years that I have belonged to our club I have only broke 300 once.Since buying your CD I have not shot under a 300 and today shot my personal best of 341.I prayed to God that I would shoot good and give him all the glory but I just had to give you some accolades. I have never posted anything on any site anywhere but I had to let you Know how this has really changed my life.I had group watching me shoot and it still didn't affect me. I feel I owe you more than the $26.00 I paid for the CD. Just wanted to let everyone know. With all Sincerity & Gratitude Jerry Buschle JR
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Jerry,
Glad to hear of your success!!! Make the decision to only shoot the arrow if it is going as planned. Recognize those foreign thoughts when they come in and make the decision to let down. Keep asking yourself those questions of WHAT WAS I THINKING ABOUT? WAS I SAYING MY MANTRA? On those perfect shots, ask yourself those same questions so you realize HOW you executed that perfect arrow. Stopping a bad arrow before it happens is the goal of the program. Shot control is an amazing thing. Know what you did to get it, and recognize what you need to do to keep it. Congrats!!!!
JT
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Update:
Still have the clicker installed on one of my longbows only for continued practice and shot control. I shoot everyday even if its only a few arrows. My goal was to come to full anchor, let the clicker click and hold a second or two before I release. These practice sessions over the Winter really put me in control and I believe curbed the target panic. Joel was 100% right on with his instructions. Thanks Joel for taking my calls and continued encouragement! Also have to give some credit to Leon Stewart for critiquing my form and helping as well.
I have gained complete control of the shot and now shooting my other longbows without a clicker. It feels good again to be in control of the shot sequence and have good form. Haven't shot this good in over 20 years.
Ron
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Ron,
Be very,,,,,,, very careful with what you are doing with the clicker. If you make it click and then hold for a couple seconds before releasing, you are using it as a draw check and not a trigger. If you use it as a draw check, the subcon is once again allowed to tell itself when to release. If you allow the subcon to tell itself when to release after the clicker, you are much more susceptible to efficiency. The subcon will attempt to shortcut your system. As for your other bows you have taken the clicker off of, please realize that a shot with no trigger as the goal of the pulling, is being released when the subcon wants. No trigger=subcon driven system of efficiency. Trigger=conscious driven movement.
I say these things to make sure you do not fall into the pit of false efficiency again. If you want to shoot with no trigger, more power to you sir, but beware the ol' gremlin that you have just let back into your shot. He will try to make you more efficient, ie not get into your back muscles before releasing. Make sure you stick with the program of not shooting a shot unless it is perfectin concentration. With no trigger as your goal, that evaluation process gets more difficult and it is much more difficult to stop a bad shot before it happens.
I am not trying to be offensive, I just want you to know you are shooting two totally different shots that are driven by different portions of the mind. With whatever shot you choose, make sure you only shoot the perfect ones and stop the bad ones before they happen.
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Joe is 100% correct on this. I shot a compound for years and had a difficult time going to traditional because I didn't have a trigger with fingers. With a compound and a release I concentrated totally on squeezing the trigger slowly until the release surprised me when it went off. My mantra with a release was "keep squeezing". With the clicker you concentrate totally on pulling and don't ever think about the clicker, it just naturally happens. The clicker is definetly the only way to go in my opinion. It assures that your mind will always be in the right place because it makes you focus on something other than the release. You just have to always make sure that you focus on the pulling and not the clicker going off. I never think about the clicker, just the pulling. Just as I only thought about the squeezing with a release and not the release going off. The clicker will ensure the proper surprise release every time.
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Ron,
If you are letting the clicker go off and then holding, then the clicker isn't giving you a surprised release. You are holding after the clicker goes off so you are thinking about the release before it happens. It will work short term but once your mind figures this out it will go down hill. The key is to focus on the pulling and the release will naturally happen when the clicker goes off.
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I'm pulling back to full anchor and releasing with accuracy 100% of the time. I would think that this indicates control of the shot sequence. The trigger point for me is drawing to the corner of my mouth with a firm anchor and releasing. With target panic I couldn't even come to full draw and accuracy was suffering. It's hard to explain but I feel very relaxed and in control of the entire shot sequence. Maybe some false hope but I did a complete 180 on my shooting. Just kept after it all Winter....I had a plan.
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Ron, I may be wrong but I think you mis-understand what Joel is talking about as to a trigger. What part of your shot is a non-anticipatory trigger? Coming to full draw, firm anchor and releasing are not triggers. The clicker is your trigger if you release at the click. I use feather to nose trigger but have a clicker that I plan to install on one of my bows to try. Absent a trigger the gremlin will be back. I know from experience. I was recently trying some new arrow shafts and doing some bare shaft tuning. Absent my feather trigger my control went downhill quickly and soon I didn't even have control with fletched shafts.
Gary
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I know for a fact at least for myself, in order for target panic to never come back, a unanticipated trigger is necessary. Without it target panic always comes back. The clicker is a great way to make sure target panic stays gone.
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Ron,
Please don't take any of these comments the wrong way. If you have control of your shot and you know HOW you are maintaining that control, then stick with your program. Just be very careful to only shoot that arrow if it is perfect in concentration and the shot is going as planned. It is just a bit easier to evaluate if the trigger is the goal of your movement. I believe you can do it, stay strong and diligent with your shot and please call me with a progress report when it's convenient for you.
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The trigger is when I come to full anchor with the middle finger anchored fully in the corner of my mouth. I won't release until all of this in play otherwise I just let up and don't shoot. I can't say that the target panic won't ever return but I can say that I am in control of the entire shot sequence now. I still have the clicker installed on my practice bow but trying to switch back and forth to get in sync which has worked for me.
Ron
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I like the clicker because you never know when it will go off, so you can't anticipate the release. Plus you come to good solid anchor before the pulling continues to the clicker. Everything else I have tried doesn't work long because it can be anticipated. But if it works for you then that is all that matters.
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Just wanted to thank Joel for working with me. I don't consider myself to have target panick in the general sense. What I was looking for was a system to control my shot sequence when am worn out mentaly and physicaly. In a nut shell I was looking to keep my usually dependable subconcious from exercising its desire for efficiency and short circuiting my shot when under stress. The manifestation of my issue came after shooting competitive 3D for a couple hours. I found my scores dipped in the last third of longer courses.
I now feel like I have a system to break that cycle when I feel my mental focus fuzzing out.
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Joel,
I got your vid at Kzoo and like it. I'm having trouble with the clicker, but I think it's due to fatigue or not being able to concentrate on the mantra. I even almost yell it. What are your thoughts: I either draw initially too far and it clicks..I let down a little and then sight, then never make it click again despite pulling...Or I draw to anchor, start to pull through to make it click, but poof the arrow is gone. I know it's lack of control, and I've had trouble with clicker string length adjustment. I feel like with a longbow, I just don't always draw the same distance, as it depends on the position of me/target.
Grrr
The arrows are perfectly placed every time so I know it will work for me, but I'd like to get control of the situation here.
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Been working on my 3D/field point non-anticipatory trigger since hunting season is over and 3D tournaments are coming around. I'm having trouble finding that perfect trigger. When hunting I use my simmons broadhead as my trigger with the back of the broadhead draw check. It works perfect for me. Can't use that with field points so...
I tried the feather to nose trick last year but for some reason I couldn't make it work. It felt like it changed how I draw. I tried the tab sear and didn't care for that much. I settled on using a kisser button on the string. I had it set up so it would touch my eyebrow/forehead area. It seemed to work ok for a while but I had some inconsistencies in actually getting it to touch my forehead and my anchor point seemed to creep back to the far edge of my cheek bone instead of right under my eye.
So I've moved my anchor point back to under my eye because I'm certainly more accurate with that set up. In doing so the feather to nose seems to work better now. Not sure what is different. However during the 3D shoot I attended today I found myself still having trouble finding the feather. It wasn't a target panic issue, it was more of a deal where I found my head position to be inconsistent and thus it was hard to "find the tip of my nose."
I think I need to stand in front of a mirror and see exactly where my head needs to be from a form standpoint so I can consistently hit the tip of my nose.
Any tips from others who use the feather to the tip of your nose?
Chris
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If the broadhead worked for you then try oversized fieldpoints. That is assuming you are using screw-ins.
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Ok I need a bit of clarification on the oversized field point issue. Not sure where I would get that or is it something I have the wrap up the end of the arrow to build it up? I always figured that would change how the arrow flies. Anyone have any pictures?
CK
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TTT
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Just started shooting my longbow a month ago after a few month layoff. I just focused on my target and shot, worked pretty good until the old TP started coming back.
Then I went over my notes I took when I spoke with Joel last year and started using the "keep pulling" mantra and shot sequence.
This works good except I have a hard time, kind of a mental block when I get settled in and try to activate the shot. The mantra doesn't seem to help, I find I get better results if I focus only on movement.
Everything else works, no other problems, accuracy is better than ever. Just struggle to get the feather to my nose.
Any suggestions.
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The mantra is to help you get to your trigger. You have to make it mandatory to have your feather touch your nose or you let down and not shoot. After you are able to let down you will find it easier to get to your trigger. You my want to try a clicker to a while until you get the hang of it.
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Cch, good advice. I need to let down when I freeze up. Only reward the correct sequence. I will work on that.
I am amazed at how just the thought of having to touch the feather to my nose allows me to hold at anchor. I don't even think about aiming, just let the aiming take care of itself. I used to trigger when it thought I had a sight picture, got real ugly.
Now, I feel myself improving each day. Just need to refine a few things.
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MissouriCK, Not sure what kind of arrows you are using. Do they have tunable nocks? I adjust the position of the feather so it touches the tip of my nose by turning the nock and drawing the bow to check. I fletch my own arrows so I have the feather the correct distance from the nock. For me the feather needs to be angled down slightly to touch the very tip of my nose. If it is straight out it hits higher on my nose which increases draw length and makes it hard to get to. IMO you shouldn't be trying to "find the feather". If you start thinking about something other than pulling let down and start over. I will occasionally draw not intending to shoot and just pull back until the feather touches so I know it is in the right spot. This increases my confidence in the system and helps set muscle memory for what the proper draw length is to get to the trigger. Hope this makes some sense. Good luck.
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If anyone is going to Denton Hill Joel is doing a couple of seminars, check it out it might help you.
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ttt
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Thought I would bring this back up. I have been hearing a bunch of target panic talk going on.
Chris
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I received Joel's video about three weeks ago and have been working on things. I was a "hill style" snap shooter and sometimes I could shoot great, and other times down right terrible. Basically no consistency. Holding at full draw was simply unthinkable. And the biggest reason why I couldn't hold a full draw was because I didn't know what to do one I reached the corner of my mount. I had previously tried numerous other techniques, but ended up frustrated and always went back to my snap shooting.
Joel's method makes so much sense!!! Now, I know what I'm supposed to do once I get to full draw. I can even let down when things aren't right. When I execute everything correctly and continue to pull the feather to my nose, it's a good shot. The one thing that I have noticed is that when my mental state breaks down, the gremlin sneaks back in, and I release before I should, its a REALLY BAD shot. But these are getting fewer and fewer during a shooting session. I think I'm on my way to better shooting (At least I've seen enough improvement so far that I've stuck with Joel's method longer than anything else I've ever tried.)
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John,
Just remember, there is no system that will work for you. You have to WORK FOR IT!!!! Get better at putting yourself in the process of that last quarter inch of pulling. Get better at recognizing when the shot is outside the perfect mold. If it is outside the mold, LET IT DOWN!!!! That's the only way to get better at concentration. I have a whole new way of explaining the system to people that has been born from my recent research in motor learning and performance. It gives the mental mechanics much more of a scientific backing, very exciting stuff!!! As always, I am only a phone call away. 253-686-3623
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I'd love to hear your new thoughts on this, Joel, whether here, a new CD, or in one of your clinics. Do you post a schedule of your upcoming clinics anywhere?
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McDave,
I don't have a schedule yet. The only ones scheduled so far are next week at the Pope and Young Club convention in Phoenix AZ, I will be doing 4 days of seminars and one on one instruction, and the second weekend of July in Denver CO at ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPECIALTY GEAR. I am also starting a new website that will be out in a few weeks.
JT
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I think I've come to the conclusion that target panic is just a bad habit, or learned shooting personality. Repetitive behaviors (unfocused shots, mindlessly flung arrows) grow into persistent attitudes ("I just can't shoot today" or "I'm just not a very good shot"). These self doubting attitudes, in succession, grow and build upon each other to form a bad shooting personality riddled with doubt and an unconscious, unpredictable shooting style, aka target panic. I feel that I walk a fine line between controlled snap shooting and target panic.
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Joel what is your bow set up and thoughts on bow weight related to target panic problems.
Do you just practice shoot with your hunting bow?
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The best thing I ever did about target panic is to get over what I thought was the correct bow weight for me to shoot. As soon as a I dropped weight to a level that was better suited for me, the sky opened up.
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Joel -
Do you plan to come to Denton Hill again this year?
Ron
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LongStick- I envy that quick of a fix. I couldn't sell my brain and buy one more suited to my shooting style. The TP trouble I've experienced wrecked my shooting with a 65# bow or a 40# bow, it didn't matter as it was entirely in my head. I'd release prematurely with a wrist rocket. When I screwed my head back on straight, thanks to advice from Joel Turner, I can shoot any bow I like, but I'm happy with mid-low fifty pounders.
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Just last week I took Joel up on his offer and gave him a call. Despite the fact I was caller number 208 he was incredibly willing to speak with me, and we were on the phone for almost an hour. What he said was exciting and makes perfect sense. Once I have given his suggestions a thorough and consistent application I will report back with my thoughts.
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Brent
Speaking with Joel the first step is to be able to set your sight picture and then keep it. The problem I feel is many are overbowed that they are fighting to establish and keep the sight picture which makes it impossible to move on to get to the point of "keep pulling". For me and I know it's not the case for all, simply reducing weight has allowed me to work through all of Joel's technique without the use of a hard trigger like a clicker.
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Just read all 23 enlightening pages, great information.
Think I'll adjust my fletch and try the nose to feather...
TTT >>------->
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In keeping with my promise from almost a year ago I am reporting back with my thoughts on Joel's system:
It has definitely worked for me, and I'm shooting better than I ever have. I am the one that now controls my bow; not the other way around. Shooting has become enjoyable.
Thanks for sharing your experience, Joel!
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Thanks Kevin, it's good to hear. I would enjoy hearing how others are doing with the psyco-trigger / feather to nose this past year.
The past few months I have been doing the "mantra" as Joel describes and keeping good form while practicing Kidwell's drills for TP, and also shooting a lot of blank bale. Form work...
I've been doing most of what Joel suggest as well, excluding the non anticipatory release. The time has come for me to give it a try and I'm going with the feather to the nose.
My TP is fairly tame after a lot of hard work but at 3D events, it falls short, due to pressure of wanting to score will. The site picture triggers my release with a short draw. I can still score ok as my alignment is good and I'm using back tension but TP is still winning is certain shooting situations, and my scoring suffers.
This morning I moved my fletch and did the feather to nose to trigger the release. And it worked well.
I visited the local range and I was able to concentrate on the movement to get me to my trigger. Results were scary good.
While I would say I hit anchor 100% of the time (which is awesome) I'd say I only got through the mantra 60% of the time, which isn't so good.
My shot placement was well and most of my shots were 20- 30 yards, but from everything I hear and read, it's really about a consistent shot sequence which also includes the mantra to activate the muscles to get me to my non anticipatory trigger... I'm pleased with todays results.
Great thread here...
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If you haven't already, I would give Joel a call and talk to him. Take notes on the conversation, too. You won't regret it.
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TP is a nasty mental joke that our subconscious perpetrates on us when we fail to pay attention to what we're doing.
the few times the TP bug struck me down hard, i just picked up ONE arrow, slowly drew and aimed at a tree stump or butt (no aiming spot or target) a few yards away as if my life depended on killing that tree or butt before it killed me.
repeat as needed, slowly but surely. that's what it takes, there's no way around it, it's all about head games.
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I would like to bring this back to the top. Mr. Turner, thank you so much for your contributions. I have read this thread in its entirety. You recently helped my brother at a seminar, and I plan on attending one when I am in the area next.
Thanks so much, sir.
Jake Scott
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Bumping this thread up on top again, because this is really good stuff! But I experience a little different "gremlin". When it strikes me, and it only strikes when shooting at targets, I an afraid to let the string go. No early release for me, but I stand there at full draw until the shakes get me, then I release. The result is the same... A bad shot. I never get this problem while stumping alone in the woods, so it might have some of the same causes as TP.
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ttt
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Some good info in this one!
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Agreed! If a person is afflicted with TP you can definitely benefit from Joel's knowledge.
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I Have been using Joel"s system for a while now and am shooting as well as I ever have. I can honestly say that my TP is as well as gone(when using his system) and my 3D scores show it. I am averaging over 170 this year on 20 target 3D courses with my highest score being a 184. Shooting is fun again.
I also use a feather to the nose trigger. It works well for me.
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it's all about head games
X's 2, Rob
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Could somebody explain what is needed to create a Tab Sear? I'd like to give it a try.
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As I recall, there are photos of some of his earlier versions of the tab sear buried somewhere in the many pages of this topic. These appeared very similar to the lacing hooks that are on some boots once you lace past the eyelets.
His more recent versions appear to be two nylon washers, one slightly larger than the other. The larger one goes on top. In either case, they are fastened to the tab with a rivet or some similar way.
The idea is to hook your thumbnail on the edge of the sear, and press down on it as you expand. So you have to select some place on your tab to mount the sear where you can press down without having to move your thumb to some unnatural position. When your thumbnail slips off the edge of the sear, that is your trigger to shoot the bow.
For this to work, the trigger has to be a surprise. Obviously, you could just force your thumbnail down on the sear and make it slip off, but that would defeat the purpose of the sear. You have to steadily increase pressure until your thumbnail slips off at some unknown moment.
In fact, the key to Joel's whole system is to focus all your attention during expansion on the movement required to activate the trigger. When Joel asks you the question, "What were you thinking about during the shot?" any answer other than focusing on the movement required to activate the trigger is the wrong answer.
An alternative to the tab sear is the grip sear, where you mount the sear somewhere on your bow handle where it can be conveniently reached by your bow hand thumbnail.
Joel encourages using your own imagination in creating a sear, or even using some feature, such as a ridge or bump on the bow handle, that is already there.
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Thanks Mcdave I've been watching his Iron Mind videos on YouTube and reading up as well but couldn't seem to get the exact information I was looking for. Your reply helped.
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I'm glad I found this!!
I really have really struggled with consistency and also first shot accuracy lately. I haven't had good shot control for a while and just been in denial. So Sunday morning I started watching Joels's videos online. I shot a little bit with a new approach. By Sunday afternoon I was so much better just using tidbits of Joel's course that are on youtube! I enrolled in the course and have just started it. I'm already enjoying shooting a lot more and have much more control. I can actually hold my bow at full draw! I'm scratching the surface with Joel's approach but it sure looks promising!
I'm sure I'll get to these answers soon just wondering as I get farther into the course is there going to be an option to not use a pshyco clicker? Will the mantra alone be enough?
Tedd
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No, there won't be an option to not use a psychotrigger. He will offer you quite a few different psychotriggers to choose from: a clicker, feather to nose, grip sear, tab sear, etc. Having a non-anticipatory psychotrigger is an integral part of his system. The reason is that if you know when the arrow will be released, your body will have pre-ignition reactions, similar to flinching when you shoot a gun: flinching is inevitable; whether you flinch, before or after the bullet leaves the gun is something you can control. Besides pre-ignition reactions, the psychotrigger is a key factor in controlling target panic. Joel defines two types of systems: open loop and closed loop. You have to understand these and why a closed loop system is necessary to control target panic. Under Joel's system, after everything else has been said and done, and the only thing left to do is release the arrow, there is a tiny movement you need to make to trigger the release. Learning to focus on this movement, to the exclusion of everything else in the universe, and being able to control and stop it if necessary, is the key to avoiding target panic and pre-ignition reactions in Joel's system.
There are certainly other systems out there other than Joel's system, but I can't imagine Joel's system without a psychotrigger.