Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: John J on May 03, 2012, 09:06:00 AM
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When I am shooting, I find that I usually release less then a second after hitting anchor. Is this bad? It doesn't seem to effect my accuracy at all. In fact, it I seem to be more consistent when I only hold for <1 second then when I hold for 3. So, for how long do you hold your draw at anchor and why?
Thanks
John
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In a perfect circumstance, I hold between 2 and 4 seconds after hitting anchor. For me this is the aiming/expansion portions of the shot (which follow transfer).
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1 second seems to be ideal for me - I've tried holding for longer and find that my form collapses and my release goes to crap.
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about 1 second then expand and release. any longer
than that and I also start to collapse, I am not
overbowed, it just happens.
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About 3 or 4 seconds. Anything less, and I don't shoot as accurate.
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2 at least!
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I release as soon as I hit anchor. The last two inches or so of draw are the final alignment time and anchor is go.
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I just recently started holding for three and anchor, and then continue holding for three more after the shot. That has helped me more than anything.
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JOHN I HAVE NO SET TIME, ONCE I HIT MY DOUBLE ANCHOR AND START MY EXPANSION THE SHOT TAKES CARE OF IT SELF AND GOES WHEN IT WANTS TOO. IF MY MIND TRIES TO TAKE OVER AND CONTROL THE SHOT [ BIG NO-NO !!!!!] I WILL LET DOWN AND RESTART MY SHOT SEQUENCE. EVERY ONE IS DIFFERENT AND THE BEST WAS IS TO SEE WHAT FITS YOUR STYLE THE BEST.
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Originally posted by SAVIOUR68:
JOHN I HAVE NO SET TIME, ONCE I HIT MY DOUBLE ANCHOR AND START MY EXPANSION THE SHOT TAKES CARE OF IT SELF AND GOES WHEN IT WANTS TOO. IF MY MIND TRIES TO TAKE OVER AND CONTROL THE SHOT [ BIG NO-NO !!!!!] I WILL LET DOWN AND RESTART MY SHOT SEQUENCE. EVERY ONE IS DIFFERENT AND THE BEST WAS IS TO SEE WHAT FITS YOUR STYLE THE BEST.
What do you mean by "start my expansion"? Thanks!!
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sinawalli, Expansion happens after reaching anchor and transfer to holding. It is part of the system of shooting that is taught to archers that really want to learn good form. If you are interested in the entire process, check out the web site below. It is the system I teach and can be very applicable to hunting but is often perceived (incorrectly) as a target only process for the shot.
http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com
Arne
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SINAWALLI, WHEN THE LOAD OF MY DRAW IS FULLY ON/IN MY BACK MUSCLES AND THE SQUEEZING OF THEM WILL GIVE YOU A SURPISE RELEASE IF EXECUTED PROPERLY. AS I SAID IF MY MIND TRIES TO GET INVOLVED IN IT AND TAKE OVER THEN THE SHOT DECLINES FROM THERE. AT TIMES HUMAN NATURE IS TO MAKE THE SHOT HAPPEN QUICKLY DUE TO BUILDING TENSION AND THE FEAR OF NOT HITTING WERE YOU WANT TO. I HAVE PERSONAL FOUND A RELAXED SEQUENCE OF MY SHOOTING PROVIDES THE BEST RESULTS AND AT TIMES I WILL PURPOSELY DRAW AND JUST CONCENTRATE ON MY DESIRED IMPACT POINT BUT WILL NOT LET THE ARROW GO. JUST MY $.02 WORTH. GOOD SHOOTIN TO ALL MY TG BRO"s.
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THANKS MOE, COACHES ALWAYS EXPLAIN THINGS BETTER.
:clapper:
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I must try this first chance.
Thanks, again! to both of you.
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It works very well, I will start to work this into my form.
Thanks again.
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NJLOCO, GLAD TO HERE ITS WORKING FOR YA BUD. ONCE YOUR BACK MUSCLES BUILD UP MORE THE SHOT IS ALMOST SECOND NATURE AND THE RESULTS I HAVE HAD ARE SIMPLY AWESOME.
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I shoot most everyday for 30-40 minutes. I, for a number of years, released immediately at anchor and did well with it. Now ....I pause for a "windage" check with the arrowshaft in relation to the spot I'm attempting to hit. All the while I'm continuing to pull with my back muscles until the shot automatically releases. This pereferal windage check takes only an extra second and it all occurs in one continuous motion. ......good luck.......jackdaw
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I hold until everything feels right. If you start worrying about how long you're holding it, your draw weight is probably too heavy. Don't ever "just shoot". You can't figure out what you need to improve if you fling and hope. I start aiming before I draw and stop aiming when the arrow hits.
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I hold as long as it takes. :bigsmyl: :campfire:
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Originally posted by daveycrockett:
I hold as long as it takes. :bigsmyl: :campfire:
But most of the time it's "touch and go" :archer2:
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I use to hold longer....but after thousands and thousands of shots....my shot has evolved into one fluid motion....unless however the game dictates.
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Same with me T, I know I used to hold longer....
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Thanks for that website, Moe.
I have some work to do...
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If you aren't pulling, you aren't expanding. I'm not being a smart a$$...just trying to understand how you can 'hold' and expand at the same time?
Hold = static and expand = dynamic but static don't = dynamic.
Can you explain MO how you can be dynamic and static at the same time?
Somewhere here there's a post where Rod Jenkins said he and I shoot alike, just that he's much slower than I on the last part of his draw. He might look like he's holding but he's not.
Again...I"m not trying to be a smart a$$....just wondering if the word 'hold' is the wrong word to use if you are expanding. As I am definitely expanding on my shot but there is no trace of a 'hold'....and you don't have to 'transfer to hold' to have expansion.
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i used to release as soon as my finger touched my anchor point but developed target panic. It has taken years but finally getting to point that 90% of my shots have no indication of the panic setting in causing me to flail wildly at the shot... one way I have done this is to force myself to hold the shot at anchor until I am sure I am ready. So far so good...I am not hitting tacks at 20 yards like the old days but I am hitting target and grouping which cannot be said for a few years there...
do what works...back tension or not, hold or touch, corner of mouth or floating anchor....just do what works for you.
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Terry, I agree with you that the word "hold" implies a stopping point, much like the word "anchor" does. In the NTS, "Holding" is actually a step where "aiming" is started AND the shooter continues to move into expansion which is defined as the "start" of follow through ( this is the point where the shooter is committed to executing the shot.) Again, in the NTS, "holding" is also the point in the shot sequence where visible external movement changes to what is called "internal" movement. Movement does not stop but it becomes so small that you can really only see it by freeze frame video. See your comment about Rod.
This is one reason why I seldom go into this area on the forums and always say that it is easier to show and demonstrate in person. I do not see your question as "trying to be a smart a$$" but as a great question from someone who "gets it!"
We have many words in the English language that are used in LESS than optimal ways. How many times are the arguments about "instinctive" referred back to the dictionary definition?
Anyway you are absolutely right! IF "holding" is seen as a stopping point and not as a transition point to smaller internal movement, the shot has every likelihood of collapsing. Also, "transfer to hold" is really meant to set as much of the power of the bow into your back as possible. You do that with your "J" movement. You are transferring to expansion - nothing wrong with that - in fact that is really good!
I could go on and on about this but will say this. When I watch your videos, Terry, you have blended many of the "steps" into a smooth whole that should be the goal of all "trad" shooters. Your draw, transfer, and expansion are really good and done in one smooth motion! I'm not sure when you aim (I like to get folks aiming after reaching anchor) but since you do not struggle with TP I suspect that you aim at the right time too! You have been doing it well for so long that all the steps whether you identify them or not are there.
I have studied the NTS for a while now with the ONLY goal of seeing what is good and what is not for "trad" shooters and not to teach or say that that is the correct way to shoot for everyone. There are many good points in the NTS not the least of which is an approach that substantially REDUCES common archery injuries AND it gives me small steps to teach new shooters.
Great question Terry, hope I answered it.
Arne
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
If you aren't pulling, you aren't expanding. I'm not being a smart a$$...just trying to understand how you can 'hold' and expand at the same time?
Hold = static and expand = dynamic but static don't = dynamic.
Can you explain MO how you can be dynamic and static at the same time?
Somewhere here there's a post where Rod Jenkins said he and I shoot alike, just that he's much slower than I on the last part of his draw. He might look like he's holding but he's not.
Again...I"m not trying to be a smart a$$....just wondering if the word 'hold' is the wrong word to use if you are expanding. As I am definitely expanding on my shot but there is no trace of a 'hold'....and you don't have to 'transfer to hold' to have expansion.
well i hold for about 3 sec. i will tell you how i do it. i pull, get to my 2 point anchor, settle and enjoy the moment for a second then continue to pull through my static anchor and relax my hand at same time, the string slips away and im full extended, maybe a bit over extended at times. with me working my from doin it like this i have went from a 27in draw to an 29in draw. pretty crazy. its the most fluid and solid way to do it for me. works great
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Hold ? Why ? Lol...
I've been down this road many a time arguing this point. Something nobody will ever agree on .
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This is from a thread going back a few years ago about snap shooting when Ron Laclair chimed in and said this......
One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.
When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney.
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As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.
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Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.
I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter". Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are not. Maybe we should come up with another term to describe these failed snap shooters...."short snappers"?..."Half snappers"?
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When I shoot aerial targets then holding for 2-3 secs isn't going to work, just as a 1/2 sec hold/pause at 80 yards isn't going to work for me.
It only become an issue when people are unable to adapt their shot timing i.e can only snap shoot regardless of the shooting situation.
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Thanks Mo....yeah...I've said he here quite a few times...
An Anchor Point is not a resting place, but is the start of an evolution to execution. So yeah, wish there was a better term to use other than hold....which has the meaning of stopped.
I aim before I even draw the bow Mo....I bring everything to my line of sight....kina like when you spot an animal and you want to view it through binos...you keep your eye on the animal and bring the glassed to you, and the animal is there in the view once the glassed are seated.
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I dont agree that the anchor should not be a resting place. i think alot of guys problems stem from not getting a solid anchor. esp for new guys it causes alot of problems. also i dont see where stopping at anchor is a problem other than what a guy says in a book. and everyone believes his word is gospel. you should find what works best for you. and try things for yourself. when guys are holding at anchor dont mean they are holding for 8 seconds or more. but you release should happen when you are fully extended and this are lined up for you and the sight picture is rite. i believe alot less guys would have target panic if they was taught a solid anchor and hold for few seconds. snap shooting comes into play when the situation dictates it, but should not always be used for normal shooting practice. i was follower of Asbell and it screwed me all up! to each his own thats why this is so great. you can have your own style an do whats best for you. :thumbsup:
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Why shouldn't it ? You dropped a lot of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in your post , speaking of gospel.
Since when does anything in shooting a longbow have to be static ? I believe we'd see a lot less target panic if guys weren't so concerned about how their form looks and more concerned with what spot their going to send cedar thru.
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Originally posted by Aaron Proffitt 2:
Why shouldn't it ? You dropped a lot of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in your post , speaking of gospel.
Since when does anything in shooting a longbow have to be static ? I believe we'd see a lot less target panic if guys weren't so concerned about how their form looks and more concerned with what spot their going to send cedar thru.
I have been trying to make that point here for a while. But there are some here that push "proper form" and if you don't hold to it, it is a problem. --You draw the bow back you launch an arrow you hit you intended target and target falls down- No Problem.
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Originally posted by Aaron Proffitt 2:
Why shouldn't it ? You dropped a lot of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in your post , speaking of gospel.
Since when does anything in shooting a longbow have to be static ? I believe we'd see a lot less target panic if guys weren't so concerned about how their form looks and more concerned with what spot their going to send cedar thru.
Thanks for poke to the ribs! i love a good debate and ruffled feathers. i also thought it was a general question not pertaining to any design bow. with good form comes accuracy, but until you have really mastered the shot and form like Terry.. :wavey: , for new guys and guys wanting to get solid form and achieve accuracy faster i believe should stick to holding at anchor a few seconds before expanding. and later work into snap shooting. most top shooters hold at draw for a few seconds. Walter Lucki who was a world longbow champion in 1997(?) i belive? would hold his 70lb longbow for as long as it took till he felt the shot was rite and shot lazer beams out to 50yds. i seen it first hand. very impressive shooter. :campfire:
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Originally posted by Aaron Proffitt 2:
I believe we'd see a lot less target panic if guys weren't so concerned about how their form looks and more concerned with what spot their going to send cedar thru.
Nothing to do with how form looks,form is about having a repeatable shot sequence, if you dont have that foundation clearly estabished in your mind then just focusing on a spot, will when under pressure nearly always overide your form and at some point target panic will catch up with you.
Aiming is obviously a key part of shooting but it shouldn't be so important that your shot sequence suffers.
Putting everything into aiming and assuming the form will follow causes more target panic issues than anything else.
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Excellent advice from Steve there - I've been working on that shot sequence almost exclusively this year and have seen outstanding benefits already. More relaxed shooting is how it feels to me rather than an overwhelming "THERES THE SHOT, SHOOT NOW' feeling. This ends up with a nice 2-3 second pause at anchor while my expansion continues and I savor my sight picture before the arrow heads off down range.
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Steve...I think you are confusing anchor with static or dynamic. I have a solid anchor as you I grantee I'm dug in as much as you, as are MOST of the folks I hunt with that shoot similar to me as if getting on target early.....as does Rod Jenkins...and we are doing the SAME thing, I just do it faster than him because I aim earlier than him. That's why I call it 'evolution'. What I'm saying is that just because I get off a shot fast doesn't mean I'm not running the same shot Rod is who aims later. Oh, and thanks for the compliment on my shooting.
I do agree that there are a lot of folks that are self taught that could use some help to learn the shot and find out whether they need to 'take longer'(didn't want to say hold :D ) or take shorter depending on their make up. Like you said about Asbell....it works for him, and he's killed tons of animals....but his style is not for everyone. We gotta all go with the make up God gave us and make the best of it.
I an not saying someone shouldn't hold or should shoot like me...all I'm saying, as well as many others is that you shouldn't just stop.
Snap shooing is a style, and not a dissorder,.....HH was a snapper...got post on that too here by Ron LaClair I'll try to find...
You can Snap Shoot incorrectly or hold for 10 days and shoot incorrectly. Doing either incorrectly is the problem.....do both correctly and there is no problem.
One other thing is that if you do totally stop you will begin shaking. And, don't blame someone shoot fast, especially if they are shooting fast correctly, are the only ones subject to target panic...I've seen folks with TP that held and were absolutely terrified to release. TP is not anchor or stop related....its mental.
Also, if you do totally stop, you are more likely to have forward creep and collapses...AND you lose performance in arrow speed when you stop.
I'll get something posted from Rod....
Article Written my Rod Jenkins
SHOOTING TIPS : "Never Stop Pulling" By - Rod Jenkins
Want to pickup 6-12 FPS at the same weight your currently drawing, without buying a new bow?
Want to become much more consistent with your shooting?
It's easy - learn to never stop pulling!
By far, the biggest form flaw I see with a majority of traditional archers is "they stop pulling"! Don' believe that? Break out the video cam and shoot some footage of yourself, as well as your pals. Playback in slow-mo and at the moment of release, you'll see the draw hand come forward, often losing 1-2'' of draw before the fingers clear the string, and often the fingers are getting scrubbed by string in the process. Ever wonder why guys are buying thicker gloves and tabs?
Pulling in an archery shot is a 3 phase affair.
(1) Excessive pulling to anchor.
(2) Balanced pulling at anchor.
(3) Increased pulling (expansion) to shot conclusion.
No doubt it's a little more work to never stop pulling, but the dividends are well worth the effort, and face it " guys shooting longbows and recurves weren't looking for the easiest way to begin with"
Mental side of Archery....
OK, John has been practicing hard for opening day of bow season and has been really working on form and shot sequenceand things are going great, He's taking his time and really executing well put together shots and confidence is high! Then opening morning all the pre-season scouting pays off and here comes the buck of a lifetime down the trail! John excitingly thinks I've got to get him, before he gets away, draws his bow and flings an arrow over his back, clanking into the woods. Disgusted John, thinks, how could I have missed such an easy shot ? I make much tougher shots all the time in practice...I just don't get it!
What happened was our fictitious pal John, totally moved his subconscious out of its "safe zone" by changing priorities from executing the shot he had practiced all summer in the back yard, with a performance based thought...the conscious mind made harvesting the buck much more important,than the shot, while the subconscious was prepared to shoot a good shot, but all that changed when the conscious mind changed priorities, leaving the subconscious out of sync and confused.
Moral of the story ? Put together the best shot sequence you possible can and when that buck walks into range... DO-NOT change your priority, simply trust and shoot, the shot that you have made countless times in the back yard.
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
Excellent advice from Steve there - I've been working on that shot sequence almost exclusively this year and have seen outstanding benefits already. More relaxed shooting is how it feels to me rather than an overwhelming "THERES THE SHOT, SHOOT NOW' feeling. This ends up with a nice 2-3 second pause at anchor while my expansion continues and I savor my sight picture before the arrow heads off down range.
Doesn't it feel great to have complete control like that? i suffer from the panic for years. i have beaten it and enjoy shooting so much more now! like you i have done the same with working on form. really glad i did. has made a big difference in my shooting.
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Terry,
wonder what rod ment by this? ''Ever wonder why guys are buying thicker gloves and tabs?''
just curious? thanks
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Redshaft, Rod and I talked about this at length when I took his class "thicker gloves and tabs" that is. When you start to release with your hand going forward, you end up with WAY more string drag on the fingers than with a "pull through" and relaxed finger release. Rod's position on the (and I agree 100%) release is IF you are releasing by relaxing your fingers AND pulling through, your calluses will actually disappear. So no reason to have to search out a thicker form of finger protection.
Arne
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Snap shooing is a style, and not a dissorder,.....HH was a snapper...got post on that too here by Ron LaClair I'll try to find...
You can Snap Shoot incorrectly or hold for 10 days and shoot incorrectly. Doing either incorrectly is the problem.....do both correctly and there is no problem.
.[/b] [/QB]
It sure makes me happy to see this for a change. I'm really tired of all the folks which refer to snap shooting as "target panic". There is a very big difference between premature release and snap shooting.
Premature release involves never having reached anchor to begin with, Snap Shooting is a fluid and fast draw, anchor, and release while maintaining form and sight picture. It is not an uncontrolled shot sequence.
And just for the record I do not believe in "Target Panic", only in uncontrolled shooting. If you control your shot, whether consciously or subconsciously (requiring a lot of proper practice, which I believe blind bail is best), you won't have the issues most refer to as target panic.
Funny how the only shooters I know that have "target panic" are those that believe it exists.
Okay, slam away... I can take it.
But I'll never be convinced it is anything but uncontrolled shooting.
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Originally posted by moebow:
Redshaft, Rod and I talked about this at length when I took his class "thicker gloves and tabs" that is. When you start to release with your hand going forward, you end up with WAY more string drag on the fingers than with a "pull through" and relaxed finger release. Rod's position on the (and I agree 100%) release is IF you are releasing by relaxing your fingers AND pulling through, your calluses will actually disappear. So no reason to have to search out a thicker form of finger protection.
Arne
thanks Arne!
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I know for me , the minute I begin thinking about anything but the piece I wanna drill; my shot will be off. If I try to go thru a checklist of what a proper formed shot should look like , my concentration goes by the wayside and it shows. However, if I'm boring a hole into the minute portion of whatever it is I am shooting at, I'm going to hit it.
In other words, bow arm comes up ,drawing and whamo !! Arrow appears where I am looking. That simple. That being said, I'm not sure I'd actually teach someone to shoot that way...I just know it works for me.