Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Archie on May 09, 2012, 12:49:00 AM
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I am just a hair shy of 6' tall, with average length arms. I have always drawn long, and my bows are built for 31" draws. I have noticed some inconsistencies in my shooting lately, so I took some videos of my full draw, to see if I am torquing the string, high elbow, etc. I turned the camera around and shot from my drawing elbow, with the camera pointing the same direction as the arrow, and noticed that my drawing elbow doesn't end up pointing straight backward, but starts curving around in an arc, toward my back.
Am I drawing too far? If I draw to 30", the elbow is pointing straight backward. Though I hate to give up an inch of draw, I wonder if I shouldn't shorten it up. Any thoughts? I'm having a rough time getting rid of some nock-high in my bareshafting, with a constant 'clink' off the shelf on release.
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You may be one of the few who doesn't have to work hard to get your back into it. Kind of jealous actually. If you get to full draw (really full draw) then the only direction your elbow can go is towards the back before you release.
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Archie,
Your string elbow should be moving around toward your back. Ideally, the elbow should be in line with the arrow (on the horizontal) OR slightly inside (toward your back) of the arrow line. Beyond that it is hard to say with our seeing your shot. If you could post a couple videos, one from the front (like in your avatar picture) and one from behind your elbow (in the same direction as the arrow) it would help us help you. In looking at the avatar (and assuming that that is you), it does look as though you have some lean back from the waist and you have your head pulled back toward the string shoulder pretty far.
How is your shooting? The nock high and or "clink" could be related, just can't say more without seeing.
Arne
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I am kind of in this boat. I am almost 6'2 but not real long arms. My draw with a longbow has increased over the years to now 31". I just really stretch things out and that is what works for me. BILL
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Archie, from your avatar pick, you seem to be leaning back quite a bit which maybe a sign that you are trying to draw too far back.
In general without seeing you shoot, like moebow said having the elbow in line with the arrow or just past is optimal. However, this really depends on your body dimensions and flexibility. A lot of people can reach this alignment because of perfect body dimensions and flexibility, however, for others; it evolves increasing draw length which at a point becomes detrimental. I have seen many try and try, and put much effort into getting into this position which they may never reach, which could have been used in other aspects of the shot. FWIW, there are world class archers that cannot reach this alignment.
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I won't be able to take any videos for a day or two; I'm just too busy.
I started having some unrelated neck pain and have been going to the chiropractor for the past two weeks. Since these appointments started, my shooting has been messed up and inconsistent. I bareshafted yesterday and get horrible nock high. Broadheads shoot 8" low at 20 yards. I guess the chiropractic could be changing my bone alignment and I'm not "zeroed in" on it yet ...???
I can't get rid of the nock high, moving my nock point isn't having any effect. I've always struggled with a little nock-high in the past. I'm also wondering, could it be to do with my finger pressure on the string? Should all 3 fingers (shooting split) have equal pressure on the string? I've historically pulled a lot with the bottom two; lately have been trying to loosen up with ring-finger and pull more with index, trying to release with string rolling off off the index last
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Originally posted by Archie:
Should all 3 fingers (shooting split) have equal pressure on the string? I've historically pulled a lot with the bottom two; lately have been trying to loosen up with ring-finger and pull more with index, trying to release with string rolling off off the index last
Personally, I start the draw with the most pressure on the index finger and as the draw progresses there is a natural tranfer of pressure to the middle finger.
I think of it at full draw as; 40% index, 50% middle, and the ring finger is along for the ride (it is there to stabilize torque in the string).
But I have also found the too much concentation on finger pressure can really mess everything up.
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Thanks, Bob. You're right... it seems that since I started focusing on finger pressure, I've had increasing trouble with my release. Hmmm...
To get back on track with the over-draw question, I do not feel awkward with drawing long; but I can tell you I feel pretty maxed-out, as if I could not go any further. I feel a little more comfortable around 30 - 30 1/2".
I was taught many years ago that there should be some lean-back at the waist.
Incidentally, my father (5'9" tall, 29" draw), my brother (6'2" tall, 32.5" draw) and I all have long draws. Dad was a pretty technical shooter and taught us boys the basics of how to shoot when we were young.
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"I was taught many years ago that there should be some lean-back at the waist."
What works, works but this is not a currently or popularly accepted idea. Look at your bow arm angle to your spine in your avatar picture --ideally that angle should be right at 90* and kept there regardless of any other factors. Yours is less than that and is a weaker position.
As always, the best and most efficient way to learn if you are doing it acceptably or to get really good ideas to work on is to find a coach that is near you so you can go one on one with him/her.
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Originally posted by Archie:
I was taught many years ago that there should be some lean-back at the waist.
Yup, there is always more then one way.
If you talk with Howard Hill advocates including John Schulz, they suggest a slight lean into the shot.
Currently, from my education, the philosophy is balance (50/50 weight distribution being the most stable stance available). In teaching, it is suggested to visualize a stake going directly through the head, through the crotch and sticking in the ground directly between the feet. Personally, in my coaching I use balance/stability disks (one for each foot)that the student stands on while shooting. Any imbalance issues will compounded while using them. I also use them in my own practice.
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I'm not one to stick to something just because "that's the way I've always done it". I shoot comfortably enough that if I didn't have this tuning issue, I just wouldn't mess with making any changes. BUT, I do have an issue that I want to resolve.
How does one locate a coach that can work with a trad bowhunter as opposed to a field/target/olympic archery style?
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This is the only semi-current video that I have right now, and I see that I may be actually leaning forward a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzzTglbteLU
The shot is around 0:55. I may have not drawn to a full 31" in this shot; for all I know, maybe the ONLY time I'm actually drawing to a full 31" is when I measure it! In this shot, my elbow was not as far "around" as in the video I took last night. (Sorry, but I was in my pajamas in my basement in last night's video, and that video AIN'T gonna get posted!)
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Archie, This shot in the video looks pretty good. I would still suggest that your head is pulled too far back toward you drawing shoulder but overall the whole looks good.
As far as finding a coach, and when you are talking about form, I feel there is no difference between field/target/Olympic archery form and hunting form. Learn the form then apply it to the job at hand. A Level 3,4 or 5 coach can and will give you form help then you apply it to the hunting or whatever. The final "styles" may be different but the form is the same. FWIW.
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In looking at your video from this view, it seems like your alignment is pretty good. What stood out to me was an excessively long hold and a bit of collapsing (this could be your consistancy problem).
If you want a current ceritified coach, I believe there is a listing through USA Archery. To find a trad only coach, you may want to inquire at local clubs, etc or even in the PowWow here.
As Moebow has stated however, there are many things that can carry over.
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In the 70s the field archers tended to lean back. It was accepted form back then.
To me it looked like you are bending into the bow at the waist some. I try to shoot more erect than that.
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I did a bit of shooting today, and figured out that I am putting a lot of downward pressure on the arrow when I draw. I don't think my draw length is the problem; it's more like my elbow height. Ughh. Toying with the release, I can get my extreme, ever-present nock-high to completely go away by modifying my elbow height and finger pressure/hand angle at release. I feel like I'm going to have to completely re-learn to shoot if I want to beat this. I've always had a bit of high-elbow, but thought I could get around it. I feel really awkward right now when I try to draw with the elbow at a better angle.
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"I feel like I'm going to have to completely re-learn to shoot if I want to beat this."
Archie, The definition of insanity is, "continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results." Your avatar shows a classic overdraw position.
As you try to change things, it will feel awkward for a while! It is a proven fact that it takes 21 practice sessions (that's 7 weeks if you shoot 3 times a week) to change a habit and to get it feeling correct! If you just try it today and decide that it doesn't work, you are not giving yourself or the change a fair chance.
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I just took a quick video of me drawing. I'm trying NOT to draw to the "extreme". Let me know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kH0_3ZXf9o&feature=youtu.be
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That is looking much better. If you watch your head position as related to the tree behind you, as you draw do you see how far back your pull your head? Try this: When you first look up at the target, notice your head looking aggressively towards the target. Try to KEEP it there! Pull the string to your stationary head. Try not to let your head pull back and do not "go to get the string" either.
See if that helps. You are coming along nicely.
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I discovered something interesting last night. Now, remember that I am happy with my long draw, and tend to be pretty accurate. The problem is that I can hear the arrow clinking off of the riser, and can't figure out how to get rid of the nock-high when bareshafting. Obviously I'm hitting the riser, but it doesn't matter where my nock point is, it keeps happening, all the way to a 1" nock set.
Last night I started shooting with much less heel pressure on the grip. Bingo. The clink stopped.
Is it normal to grip the longbow with a light heel and heavy (hand) web grip? I'm actually more comfortable with the heavy heel pressure... it feels more "bone-on-bone", and I perceive that inconsistency could be fostered by having to hold the grip with muscle tension instead of bone alignment.
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Are you talking about a high-wrist grip, vs low or medium grip?
(http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/grip/BWrist.jpg)
If so, FWIW, I prefer high. But it depends on the bow.
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You definitely have a lot going on in your shot sequence. In your videos you over draw then settle in to anchor... that slight colapse in form can throw a wrench in the works. If you are fine with the results you're getting then by all means keep on shooting since the biggest part of all of this is the joy in what we are doing. What I would suggest is for you to try and shorten up your draw length a little to eliminate the head movement and the colapse when you come forward to anchor. After shooting a while I've gone through several different shooting sequences till I was finally happy with my results... I now have a pre-draw... which is weird sicen I though it looked weird when I first started watching a lot of Olympic shooting... but works nicely when for me now.
Good luck and most of all... enjoy the times you're shooting your bow.
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An honest 'high' grip is where I'm getting rid of the 'clink'. I prefer the feel of a low grip with a longbow, but shot a high recurve grip for most of 25 years, so don't have a problem with settling back into it.
Some guys just pick up a bow and fling arrows, throwing "technique" out the window; not me. However, I know I'm not ever going to be an olympic archer, and don't expect to shoot in any serious competitions. I want to be able to hit what I need to hit, but only if I enjoy how I'm doing it. I like to pursue good technique, but I want to balance that with enjoyment.
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Any chance you're right on the edge for arrow spine?
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I know where the arrow is hitting, and with what part of the shaft. It is right on the bottom outside corner of the shelf, not the strike plate. The shaft is flexing OK, I think.