Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: sledge on July 22, 2012, 03:34:00 PM
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or at least like john schulz did in the video.
my accuracy comes and goes when i just pull her back and let her fly.
and i draw shorter.
i find that if i draw an extra inch, i shoot better, when i settle in and stern up before release.
do i need more time at 10 yards just practicing form, without target impact worry?
or more shots all extended, and look for hold time to decrease?
thanks.
joe
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If it were me I would not be changing just to shoot like somebody else. You should shoot the way that fits YOU and provides the best level of accuracy for you.
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Originally posted by David Mitchell:
If it were me I would not be changing just to shoot like somebody else. You should shoot the way that fits YOU and provides the best level of accuracy for you.
Well said :readit:
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I know that for me, practice at the bale would be of great service. Changing from recurve and locator grips to a straight Hill, as well as beginning to shoot with glasses is playing havoc with my anchor. Developing a solid shooting style and anchor will give me a firm base, and my fine mind ( :eek: ) will take care of the details once this is developed.
The trick is being disciplined enough to follow through with the program. Thinking of the sacredness of the lives of the game I pursue provides ample motivation.
Killdeer
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Nothing wrong with wanting to improve your shooting. There are a lot of things to learn from others. I think Hill was a natural in a lot of ways, and he also got to the point where archery was his paying job, and was able to devote many more hours to it than you and I can. But I think a lot of people sacrifice that kind of consistency for what "feels" good. What most impresses me about Hill is that he could shoot very accurately at long distances. I think a lot of us can't shoot consistently beyond 20-30 yards because our mechanics are just too poor, because we are doing what "feels good". Also, according to "Hunting the Hard Way", Hill was against instinctive shooting, and felt it was too unpredictable. Obviously he found something else that worked!
I regularly read Hill's chapter on aiming, because I, too, would like to "Hit 'em" like he did!
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Originally posted by David Mitchell:
If it were me I would not be changing just to shoot like somebody else. You should shoot the way that fits YOU and provides the best level of accuracy for you.
X3
I have tried Hill's method and it just doesn't work for me. I shoot MUCH better if I draw, anchor, concentrate on my spot and release. I do not hold long, perhaps 1-2 seconds. But I also like this better for hunting personally because I am used to holding at full draw for a second. Should I need to I can hold longer without changing anything. In fact I routinely practice coming to full draw and holding there for up to a minute and then trying to make an accurate shot.
Bottom line, if what you are doing now works....why change?
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thank y'all for the thoughtful help.
i didn't make myself entirely clear, though, i reckon.
it is my determined INTENTION to learn to shoot like that.
release at the instant i hit full draw. and hit. some can, and do.
i am looking for advice on how to get THERE.
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killdeer, by "practice at the bale", do you mean the close-range targetless practice HH recommended?
if so, i do a lot of that. i got rhythm. ;-).
accuracy...now there's the rub.
past 20, if i don't settle, i don't hit reliably.
joe
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Just curious what was Howard hills shooting and aiming style if he was against instinctive? Did he shoot gap? Something else?
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Kamm, Hill called his aiming system split vision. His focus was on the target but he was aware of the arrow in his peripheral vision and it's relation to the target in his sight picture. A hybrid style between instinctive and gap as I see it.
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Sounds like exactly what I've been doing without even calling it that. I have always called myself an instinctive shooter but have always been at least slightly aware of my arrow in relation to the target to where I could identify the range almost to a tee. Very interesting.
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very cool.
threads evolve...
gfa says he doesn't want to see his arrow. i do.
instinctive? i love his comparison to a baseball player.
he writes of an infielder throwing to 1st,
deliver the ball there.
i like to take it a step further to a pitcher hitting a low, inside (or whatever) target.
aim? impossible. he looks at his target, and his mind and body, as the result of endless practice, throw strikes.
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I do the split vision thing. I do think the better I get the less I pay attention to the arrow. Similiar to shooting a shotgun opening day of dove season and the birds are covering you up. Opening day of dove season your first box of shells go fast with minimal hits, as you haven't shot your shotgun since last year. So then you compose yourself and make sure you are aiming using the bead, keeping you cheek weld correctly on the stock, etc. Then you start popping some dove. Once you get your fundamentals squared away aiming becomes natural and you concentrate less on that and more on the dove. I still think I am aiming the shotgun but the correct sight picture becomes engrained making for quick shots to where you don't even think about it. To me shooting a longbow is a similar sensation. If I have laid off my longbow for an extended period of time I go thru the same steps. First handful of arrows I fling them without much thought with little success. Next I pay close attention as to where the point of the arrow is in my sight picture and figure out what works. Last, after burning that sight picture in my mind I find myself looking more at the spot I want to hit. If my aim wonders I slow down and pay a little more attention to the point of my arrow and its relationship to the target. The fact the arrow is right out there in front of me I can't help but to see it. My mind just knows where it should be without me concentrating on it so I can focus more towards the target.
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Shoot some aerials. Lots of fun and might be the quick accurate shooting practice your looking for.
Rob
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Not everyone hits dead-on. Even with the way Hill shot he missed. Those old videos of his are heavily edited and you can tell (well as a filmmaker) where they edited around screwed up shots.
What you see in video isn't everything that happened.
If you're wanting to shoot like Pearson, Hill, or Ferguson then you're going to need tens of thousands of arrows sent down range.
Even though Ben Pearson was running the largest archery company in the world, he still went outside next to the factory and practiced at lunchtime.
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Sledge,
Here are my thoughts on the throwing a baseball analogy; not to take anything away from GFA as he has helped many and contributed much to the sport. Take any major league pitcher in the game, put them in a treestand 20 feet in the air sitting perfectly still for several hours in temperatures below freezing with all of the clothing necessary to survive; then put an 8" paper plate at 20, 25 or 30 yards and see how many hit it with the first throw. I will bet my next paycheck none of them would. May be one of the reasons HH shot split vision. HH is also quoted as saying "decide now whether you want to be a target archer or bowhunter as there is a world of difference between the two". What David Mitchell said is spot on imo. Shoot what works for you; regardless.
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Originally posted by David Mitchell:
If it were me I would not be changing just to shoot like somebody else. You should shoot the way that fits YOU and provides the best level of accuracy for you.
Bingo!
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Sledge...I use the Hill method as taught by Schulz exclusively....pm me when you have time to talk.
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I have noticed that when people try to adapt the Hill shooting style via the Schulz videos and then adding some other influences, that when they think that they need to draw and release fast that the anchor point is neglected or not consistent. If one looks at Hill when in his videos when he was shooting at still targets, there was most definitely a solid anchor. The short time needed to be at that anchor was a product of years of doing the same thing over and over. As Hill advocated, do each part of the form slowly and GRADUALLY pick up speed. As far as his split vision aiming, according to Schulz, Hill did not specifically teach it to him. However, with good consistent form, I think what Hill describes is what your on board computer will do for you, he simply breaks it down to the details, because he does say that one caannot get too dogmatic about aiming and that, after time, it can be done faster than instinctive shooting, sort of a second nature..
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Speed will come with practice but should never overtake solid anchor and form. It takes time. How much speed is needed in most hunting situations anyway. I would never shoot at a fast running deer maybe a fast running bunny.Schultz recommended at least a month on the bale with no target just to get your form down. Mr. Hill shot up to a 100 arrows daily with no target working strictly for form. He was doing this when he was in his 60s so he must have practiced like this all his life. This kind of practice would help most archers shoot better.
Split vision is good for long range shooting. Arrow shoots low and you are aware enough to raise your bow for a second or even third shot. Mr. Hill shot at game at very long distances. I don't shoot at anything over 20 yards and have no need for split vision.
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Have you ever heard Byron Ferguson say "I've met lots of instinctive archers but I've never met a good one?" I subscribe to that school of thought. I believe gap shooting to be the most accurate method of aiming that translates well to hunting.
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You mearly have the steps broken down and put together a little off.
When you swing that bow up that is your pre aim, or gap, or set point, or whatever you want to call it. You swing it up to the proper elevation, for the shot, as you draw about 2/3's the way, by the time your "on target" you should have it drawn about 2/3's, then just keep it there and finish the draw. You see that is when you are setting your aim. When you hit anchor and any of that changes..... guess what. Have no blame, solidify your aim.
Don't think so?? Re-read what you said:
"I draw to anchor, then settle in, and then shoot, my hits are more consistent. Just get "settled in" at 2/3's full draw, then touch anchor point and, "send it."
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Originally posted by bigbadjon:
Have you ever heard Byron Ferguson say "I've met lots of instinctive archers but I've never met a good one?" I subscribe to that school of thought. I believe gap shooting to be the most accurate method of aiming that translates well to hunting.
I believe Rick Welch is an instinctive archer. He's pretty good. :p
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thanks, all.
special thanks to those who addressed how i might learn/progress in the hill/schulz method.
useful stuff. onward!
joe
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I think all Instinctive archers actually use split vision without doing so consciously. Most people start by using the tip of the arrow as a reference. Over time instinctive archers ignore the tip of the arrow, but it is still in their vision even if they are not focusing on it. Their brain still uses it as a point of reference for calculating bow hand position. Most of us shoot enough that we don't think we are looking at the point, though our brain registers its location.
I find my "snap" shooting is most consistant when I follow swampthings description. Somedays I find it more consistant than my usual anchor pause, release. I think that is due to the long focus as I do a slow draw and pull through my anchor point.
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Byron Ferguson said it, I'm just quoting. I also believe Rick Welch does indeed shoot gap himself. I know he is conscious of his arrow point. Developing real precision isn't possible without referencing the arrow, instinctive archery will only be practical in accuracy at best.
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My thoughts are the same as Maineac.
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Maineac hit it right on the head, goodjob. also bigbadjon is probably correct. I learned the rick welch way. I'm still new to trad gear, but the more I learn, the more i realize I AM shooting instictevly, and at the same time I AM aware of my arrow point in reference to the target. I can't help but notice it and my brain subconsciencely uses it whether I like it or not. I believe most people are like this and the more you practic the more it becomes second nature and therefore instinctive. IDK, just my two cents.....
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Last season i was i as shooting a short heavy r/d bow and really practicing the quick release, I got pretty good at about 15 yards but when i backed up i had a BAD tendency to hold it. So i got a dozen cheap arras and backed up to about 50 yards and let em go. Guess what, same draw, same anchor it took me about 2 dozen for my brain to comprehend that it was ok to make that calculation. I mean after all thats all we're doin is calculating where to hold. I believe it just freaked my brain out to hold 2 ft over the target. Again I'm no expert but just thought i'd throw out my experience, back up and shoot... and shoot and shoot lol.. enjoy the ride my brother
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that's me, too, badwithabow.
15 yards and in, i can smoothly draw and aim like swampthing said, and let her go when i hit anchor.
and hit well.
something happens at 20, though, and i have a really hard time not holding.
no shot is more satisfying to me than a 30 yarder hitting my 3" aiming spot with a smooth, pull-through anchor release.
as a bonus, that kind of shot seems to always produce perfect, and a little faster, arrow flight.
joe
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the difficulty has been created by trying to make 'gap shooting' "look" like instinctive shooting. "split-vision" is nothing more than a drama confusion description designed to blend gap & instinctive. I shoot regularly with the very best gap shooters and instinctive shooters alive today. I would recommend picking the style which you are more accurate in hunting situations. Do not assume the more structured gap method will hold you back because in many hunting situations you have plenty of time and control (blinds, stands, acorns, alfalfa) My choice is instinctive (40 years shooting year round)and I do not see the arrow at all. Instinctive shooting is much more fluid and quicker - although shooting too quickly is a bad habit in my opinion.
Most of us shoot hay bales only, recommend asbells first book for form - Ricky welch when you want to develop accuracy to your maximum potential.
good luck <><
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Anybody got any links for some good video footage of this style of shooting?
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Somewhere online there is a watchable verson of Schulz's video. Personally, I feel like I cheat if I use that only and not buy the video so I picked up the DVD version as well.
I'll see if I can find the online version though.
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http://archeryduns.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/14895607-hit-em-like-howard-hill-parts-1-4
here it is
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Split vision is not gap shooting. If you listen to Mr. Schultz he speaks of Mr. Hill shooting at an elk at like 186 paces and he missed the first shot shooting over the elks back. He also missed the second shot shooting under it's belly. He hit and killed the elk on his third shot. This is split vision aiming. Split vision is being aware of where your arrow tip, nuckle,bow is when you make a shot so if you miss you can adjust your bows elevation without knowing distance or preconceived gaps. Your brain calculates and adjust the aiming instinctivly. Tis style of aiming becomes second nature the more the archer practices. This is one reason Mr. Schultz was trying to teach how to get a second or third arrow on the string quickly in his video Hittin them like Howard Hill. (the archer must know the yardage to shoot true gap style) I do shoot targets farther than 20 yards and I use split vision. Split vision comes into play more on second and or third shots. Mr. Hill explained this in his book Hunting the Hard Way. Gap shooting would not work for me in hunting situations due to having to estimate yardages with accuracy and know fixed gaps. I'm not that accurate estimating yardage in the woods with varying terrain, brush,trees,etc. At 20 yards (my effective hunting range) instinctive works and works well. It may be defined better by calling it instinctive aiming; i.e. split vision.. So I guess I do have a need for split vision which most archers including myself calls instinctive shooting.
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What Cahaba is describing is about how I shoot. I've never bothered with doing a detailed analysis of my gaps at certain distances, but I do use the point of my arrow at full draw, and its relationship to the target at unknown distances. My accuracy and consistency are not what I would like them to be, however; there are some mechanics and focus aspects that I need to improve. The HH method of "split-vision" shooting has made archery more enjoyable for me since I adopted it, though.
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Originally posted by sledge:
thank y'all for the thoughtful help.
i didn't make myself entirely clear, though, i reckon.
it is my determined INTENTION to learn to shoot like that.
release at the instant i hit full draw. and hit. some can, and do.
i am looking for advice on how to get THERE.
Hopefully the following doesn't offend anyone.
I've been shooting competitively for just shy of 30 years. I couldn't begin to guess how many hundreds of shoots I've been to in my life. But I could probably count on one hand the number of snap shooters I've personally seen who I'd put money on to reliably hit a basketball at 15 yards.
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I'm with Jason on this one. Ever seen bowhunting October whitetails where Barry Wensel can shoot running deer? I always dreamed of being able to shoot that way. But I simply cannot. Very few can. I took shooting lessons from Rick Welch and for me in nearly every hunting situation it works just fine.
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earlier in the thread, someone quoted HH saying that a man needed to decide right off whether he wanted to hunt or shoot targets.
given that, i reckon your experience is not too surprising, nor revealing.
joe
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But I could probably count on one hand the number of snap shooters I've personally seen who I'd put money on to reliably hit a basketball at 15 yards.
I've only been going to tournaments (I won't say all that time I was competitive) for 20 years or so, from TX to PA, hunting from NM and CO to Northern Ontario...I haven't seen them either. I've seen some that, when they were on, they were on...but they often weren't on.
To answer your question...are you willing to dedicate several hours a day, 7 days a week, for many years...realizing that even then you may never reach that goal? Or you could become much more accurate much sooner with a more conventional method.
Some people just have a gift. Not everyone who plays basketball will be Michael Jordan, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone who plays football will be Peyton Manning, no matter how dedicated they are. And not everyone who shoots a longbow can attain the level of accuracy that Howard Hill had, even if they dedicate their lives to it.
You can get pretty dang accurate though, with enough practice and the proper coaching, as long as you are dedicated to it.
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I think perhaps you have to build into the speed. Using a swing draw and releasing at anchor is a skill that will take quite a lot of time to learn. So just start out holding a little longer than a "snap" shooter...hold for a couple seconds if you like. As you become more confident and comfortable, if you want it too your hold time can decrease. This is likely over a lifetime of shooting.
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as a recovering snap shooter , I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Westbrock and LBR
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Originally posted by Ben Maher:
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Westbrock and LBR
Me too!
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Sledge I would for sure call sunset hill. He knows alot about the Hill style of shooting. I have also shot this way all my life. Growing up in the same town Mr. Hill was from helped. His system of shooting is a most excellent way to hunt in a variety of situations. Mr. Schultz who is Mr. Hills protege said to start on the blind bale and shoot that for at least a month without any target concentrating on form only.
I have nothing against gap shooting. It has to be an effective way to hunt also. Heck just looking at some of the names here that use gapping leaves no doubt but for me I will stay with Hill style. If your happy with your shooting stay with it and try to improve and be the best you can be. If you are not happy make a decision on what type of system you want to use and go for it with determined dedication. We owe the animals that much.
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thanks, cahaba.
i am indeed determined, and sunset hill and i are in touch.
joe
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I'm a snap shooter , and also do some controlled shooting with a hold for practice. I hit the corner of my mouth and the deer dies. Yes I miss sometimes too ;) I've shot deer on a flat out run and do fine with arial targets. I find that I shoot best snap shooting, but I have a BIG limitation. It's YARDAGE. I shoot light bows, and heavy arrows for hunting. I have recently started making some target arrows a bit lighter with 125gr points, which helps. So here's the thing, I just get too much arrow drop to shoot past 20 yds consistently. Hill shot heavy bows, and when he did demonstrations and wanted to lower the bow weight, it was like a toy for him. If you want to follow and emulate Howard, I say go for it, but if you can't handle 60#+ bows, I would caution your expectations. I think he shot bows more commonly with much heavier pulls than that.
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All these years I thought I was a "gap" shooter. Maybe I'm not?
I dont know yardages in the woods, just figure through years of shooting where that arrow tip should be (in my secondary vision) in relation to an animal Ive decided to take. I'll anchor and hold for a whole minute if it steps behind a bush waiting for it to step into a clear shot. If it is already in the open, I'll release after about a second( I guess?)I no longer "snap" shoot. I was terrible at it.
I personally have never been able to shoot an arrow without noticing it. Nor do I understand why I would not want to notice it.
I thought I had it all together till I read this, now I dont think I fit anywhere.
I'm lost. Just kiddin'. I dont care what my system is called, it works for me.
Sledge, good luck at mastering that style! If you do it, GREAT! If not, plenty of others to choose from or mix together. You have the right attitude to tackle it, thats for sure...
Hittin 'em like Sledge!
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I shoot best when I don't look at the arrow at all. There's a lot of ways to skin a cat!
I think there will only really be ONE Howard Hill. I have a friend that told me that after researching the mechanics, teachings, and everything, HE was going to be the NEXT Howard Hill. He really thought it would just be a process of hard work. Well, he laughs about it now, he is humble and is in awe of Howard. Could it really be that hard? No, and Yes. I think if you can handle heavy bows, it's all mental, and few have the mental capability to shoot like that consistently.
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up early. going hunting!!
to be clear, i have no illusions about becoming the next howard hill.
i'm not even very good at being the current joe sledge.
i just want to learn to hit reliably to 30 yards without holding at full draw.
btw, i shoot a fairly light arrow (540g/8.6gpp) from a fast 63# bow. trajectory is not a big problem to 30.
i struggle more with windage.
joe
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gentleman, I like this thread and kudos to all for comment's and effort in keeping the Hill legacy alive. Few points I want to point out if I may. One, we all are or was athletes at one time and know that some have natural talent and others have to work hard, Howard had both. Two, The times we live in, Howard started shooting a bow when he was 6 I believe and kept shooting all his life, so instead of coming into it at the average age now of 24. The recreation of the generation was that, there was no tv, no games, no AC this is what they did for fun. Howard as already stated was a natural (could of played pro golf and worked as golf pro for while at club), and he cultivated the shooting style we know into his own, customized it. to emulate someone is great, but remember the system works, but have to custom fit it to you. thanks for letting me ramble. Keep your string waxed and God bless the USA.
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Sledge,
Don't take my post wrong, I just mean that a lot of us try to shoot like Howard. After a while, most change their expectations and realize how amazing he was, and do our best. If you figure out the secret, let us all in!!
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My experience is that the right style for any individual is developed by tthat individual. I've tried numerous different ways to shoot abow and taken parts from each that I've liked and discarded the rest to make a system that works for me.
At full draw I look something like Howard does BUT to get there I don't swing draw (but I can if need be) and I hold for a second or two at anchor before release. I'm conscious of my arrow in my field of vision but I don't deliberately set a gap or use a deliberate aiming method.....
I'm sure this style will continue to evolve for me as the years go by. I won't hold rigidly to it, rather I will change anything to make myself a more accurate and effective hunter.
Right now I can hit good out to thirty yards but ever time I practice I push myself to get better and better...
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Originally posted by Cory Mattson:
the difficulty has been created by trying to make 'gap shooting' "look" like instinctive shooting. "split-vision" is nothing more than a drama confusion description designed to blend gap & instinctive. I shoot regularly with the very best gap shooters and instinctive shooters alive today. I would recommend picking the style which you are more accurate in hunting situations. Do not assume the more structured gap method will hold you back because in many hunting situations you have plenty of time and control (blinds, stands, acorns, alfalfa) My choice is instinctive (40 years shooting year round)and I do not see the arrow at all. Instinctive shooting is much more fluid and quicker - although shooting too quickly is a bad habit in my opinion.
Most of us shoot hay bales only, recommend asbells first book for form - Ricky welch when you want to develop accuracy to your maximum potential.
good luck <><
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Absolutely physically impossable to shoot accurately without seeing(even in secondary vision) where ones arrow, bow arm and/or bow is pointed. If one can not see the relationship of where one is pointing(standing and holding bow arm up in a drawing motion is pointing something and your sub conscious does see and use where the arrow/bow and/or bow arm is pointing. You may think you don't see it but you absolutely do see it.
If you continue to say one does not see the arrow then try and shoot consistently with your eyes closed.
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When I shoot at longer shots, I try to shoot hard. As an example, when we are walking out to where we hunt in the afternoons,we stump shoot for the the first half mile, taking mostly 40 yard plus shots. To be as nearly dead on as possible at long shots, for me, I think 'POWER' maybe a quarter second hold at a firm anchor and then release hard. It is too easy to get a soft sloppy release for me if I am always taking close fast shots. Practicing long shots really brings the cast of each shot to reality. It is okay to get a bit deliberate on the long shots.
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Kelly - stay on track - offer what you can. Your critique of my comments are pure ignorance. I have some close friends who feel the same way you do - but they are wrong and could not know what I see.
I actually shoot pretty good with my eyes closed but that is another discussion.
For you other guys I will state plainly I do not see the arrow - that is my method and I am an instinctive shooter - and not a slpit vison shooter either.
and not saying one method is better than another - I think all guys should sort this out for themselves. Trying to define away anothers method is not productive.
I have the animals and recovery rates to back it up. DONE.
I have so much confidence when I hunt I never second guess. I would not change for anything. Like broadheads if it works every time I don't switch.
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I have more than once shot a broadhead in a log while stumpshooting. I would not have shot it instead of my judo had I"noticed" it was a broadhead. Point is I don`t look at my arrow or anything when I shoot other than my spot. I changed a year ago to three under and still do not see the arrow on purpose. Maybe with out thinking I don`t know but I can shoot a candle out in the dark when I can`t see my hand in front of my face.RC
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I started shooting a longbow a year ago and i thought i was shooting instictively. Until i shot a broadhead. When drawing back everything looked different and i couldn't shoot well. I have since changed and am now like RC. I don't know what i on the end of the arrow when shooting.
Eric
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I'm not much on giving advice but from my 40 years of shooting traditional my consistency has always been not so great.So I went to a Rod Jenkins class and I learned a whole new style of shooting and I wish I would have learned this style a lot earlier in my life. It is very accurate and mostly consistent. 30 yards or less suppers on. Just food for thought.
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My theory on instinctive shooting (yup, I'm one of those guys, too) is a little different than most, since although I believe the instinctive shooter is "aware" of the arrow he/she doesn't need to actually "look" at it. What they "see", in their mind, is a relation between the spot to hit and the imaginary line of the shaft created during the draw. The arrow point (a two-dimensional "sight pin") is not used and is basically irrelevant. The line of the shaft (a three-dimensional "flight path") is created by the mind during the draw as the shooter subconciously sees/feels the shaft (and draw elbow) 'lining up' relative to the spot. The "aim" is set subconciously by the mind visualizing (not by the eye looking directly at) the arrow as the draw is completed and alignment with the spot is deemed (subconciously) to be correct. The shot then happens.
I.e., the shooter does not need or even want to look at the arrow, at all, but he/she is aware of where it is in space relative to the spot. I think it's more like shooting a basketball than throwing a baseball. See and focus on the spot on the rim, execute learned shooting form subconciously, subconciously feel the arc needed based on subconcious calculation of distance (all the while visually locked on the rim spot and line...no fair looking at your arms or hands!), feel the ball launch from your hands towards the mark, follow through...and wait for the swish.
Your subconcious trusts that all this learned work will make the ball go where you are looking. With practice and lots of repetition, it actually does (amazing!!!...not really). Shots get harder as you move away from the basket (or target)...spots become smaller, there's less margin for error, more variables to affect the outcome.
It's a simple, subconcious calculation of what to do to hit something based on form and feel. You do pretty much the same thing when walking, eating, breathing, etc. "Instinctive"...done without concious calculation of the components of effort needed to reach the desired conclusion.
Or something like that..... :dunno: :D
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Tony great post - I do think too many bowhunters struggle with the "terms" and "definitions" as much as struggle with the actual making the shot. This "aware" is fundamental - I do not see the arrow but obviously I am aware of where it is - in fact I know exactly where it is and where it is going - I use Terrys allignment clock and dvd demo a lot when we teach shooters and this is very strong structure that a lot of sloppy "instinctive" shooters are not used to.
<><
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These kinds of discussions are just another interesting part of the game. I like that there still are folks (like me) interested in the simpler styles of shooting, simpler meaning the kinds of form and gear (like Hill-style bows and simple wood arrows) that aren't normally associated with competitive target shooting. Nothing wrong with well-structured competition, but for me the constant tedious technical breakdowns and rationalizations of every minute facet of every mechnical effort involved with learning to shoot competitive scores just plain takes the fun out of it. Does the average bowhunter (who generally hunts quite close) or 'for fun' backyard shooter really need to write a mental term paper each time they draw and shoot an arrow, to get decent results? I'm not sure they do. It's a balance between two worlds: getting as good as you can while having fun, vs. pursuing pinpoint deadly accuracy by treating the task like solving a terra frequency distribution algorithm. Somewhere between the extremes of sloppy shooting and techno-anal extravagance lies a place of common sense for most shooters. Where that is depends on what end of the spectrum you fancy. 'Make up your mind...hunt style or target style', said Hill. To me that's as good a piece of advice on shooting as I've ever heard.
Here are a few video examples of what I mean by the simpler approach to shooting. Notice the 'instinctive' style of sighting and form, unreliant on complicated theory or paint-by-number fussiness. Not quite like Howard Hill form, but perhaps even more to the point about the fact that you don't need to technoshoot to enjoy the sport or be effective. Coolness abounds in the simpler methods and gear, at least for me. Try watching these short vids full-screen, the 'feel' of the unencumbered style and form comes across better. BTW, this footage is clear evidence that one does NOT need to conciously use the arrow as an aiming tool, or hold the bow loosely (for true longbows a firm hand works best). :archer2:
http://youtu.be/c-9VuBJ0pMg
http://youtu.be/o4Vd3KP-LnQ
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I don't know how many seconds defines one as a "snap" shooter or not. I sometimes shoot very fast and sometimes I hold for a second or two. Swing draw fast and I have a fast release. Swing draw slow and I may hold the shot for a second or two. My first group of 6 arrows today was pulled all at once with one hand; shooting distance was 20 yards measured. this is typical of my shooting accuracy as a "snap" shooter and there are many archers here at T.G. that are excellent "snap" shooters. As was stated earlier it's a fun way to shoot. No worry about yardages or arrow tips but just burning a hole in the spot I want to hit.. I am not aware of my point on the arrow or any part of the arrow. Mr. Hill did refer to his arrows point. I'm like some of yall : I don't want to look at any part of my arrow.
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Hey Dave, a friend of mine took Wesley's school, and I just read kidwell's updated TP section. I am typically a snap shooter, but started trying to control my shot more lately. Past 20 yds and I am not consistent. So with split vision and better control I am doing well adjusting. I can still snap shoot within about 20 yds, but I would like more structure and less guessing on every shot. It sounds like you have more control over your anchor, and I hope a couple more days will give me what I'm looking for.
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Ishot w a snap shooter at a3d it does work for some people but for me it would lead to target panic. Im like that guy in lonesome dove who gets surounded by Indians in that gullywith Gus and tells him he has to take carefull aim to hitanything great movie that indian probably dipped that arrow in ****. I in the last couple have beaten tp. I shot w a guy who had a freezing problem trouble releasing the string which would lead to plucking the string etc a 3d shoot in northern ca hes tied for 1st place he froze and missed the target and the bail. A lot of guys and ladies too get messed up by the mental side of archery myself included.
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Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.
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Howard instructed his students to start out their form in a slow rythimic(if that is a word) pattern and always keep a smooth rythm and as you get better increase your rythm/speed. I have been trying to shoot like Howard Hill execpt when I tried to shoot fast I would get one perfect one out of ten....it was that one good one that keeps me trying to shoot his method. Slowing down my form has helped so much!