Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Nitroboy on March 14, 2013, 10:24:00 AM
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Hey fellas I been shooting for about 3 months now, shot compounds competitively for bout 8 yrs and also shot compounds for over 21yrs this year and decided to go straight traditional and shoot longbows only, sold all my compounds and have a few longbows, I build strings and arrows and do all my own tuning too. I started out light weight and have found that 43-44#'s is my comfortable max, I can shoot nearly all day at a 3D tourney and not get tired and sloppy, so my question is what's a good average group size at 20yds I should be achieving? I know it depends on skill and everyone is different but what's everyone's opinion on great accuracy with a well tuned longbow, thanks for any input
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Well.... it all depends on what you want. At twenty yards, if you're able to tag a baseball on every shot, your more than ready to take it into the woods, hunting wise any way. If you are a perfectionist I guess you'll never be completely happy.
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Nitro,
I shoot primarily Bob Lee Bows set up all year round exactly like I will be walking into the woods with it. (loaded bow quiver, etc)
Shooting 600 round spot targets during the winter time is a great gauge of accuracy and consistency.
If you're familiar with a standard 10 ring 600 round target, then you'll understand the following.
A guy down there string walks and gap shoots depending on his competition recurve that he is shooting that particular night. He keeps a vast majority of his arrows inside the yellow with a few flyers into the red rings.
I shoot a pure instinctive method with a pure hunting stance and bow set up. I can keep a vast majority of my arrows in the red rings with a few flyers into the blue rings and a real bad flyer into a black ring occasionally.
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In the 3D tournaments I shoot in, which require longbow shooters to shoot wood arrows, for 28 targets, 2 shots at each target, scored 11-10-8, if you got 6 - 11's, 25 - 10's, 24 - 8's and 1 blank, you would probably win the longbow division of the tournament. Of course, nationally rated longbow shooters do much better than that, but that would probably win the local tournaments I shoot in.
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I judge mine by an avg 8 on my 3Ds. We shoot 40 targets , scored 10-8-5 so I look for 320 minimum. To win first you typically need to break 345 unless the really obscure the targets. We like to refer to the shoots as " the shots I'd never take tourney"
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At 20 yards when I am on, I can slap arrows at 20 yards without much trouble. When I was shooting a couple hundred arrows a day, I was shooting a softball size group most of the time. My groups were usually a dozen arrows. Now my avg day is around the size of a volleyball at 20 yards for 12 arrows but I am shooting maybe 100 arrows a week and going through a form change. I don't even try to compare the way I shoot a longbow to the way I use to shoot a compound.
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Well, like said above, it really depends on what you want to do with your archery... For me, I shoot a bow to hunt. Now don't get me wrong, I want to hit what I'm looking at so I work pretty hard on just that.
Distance shooting is what helps me a lot... shooting from longer distances make those 20 yard shots seem like chip shots.
I took these pics a few weeks ago... These first two were from 20 yards.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/IMAG0232.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/IMAG0234.jpg)
These two were taken from 30 yards...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/IMAG0235.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/IMAG0236.jpg)
This is pretty common accuracy for me when I'm on, now I do have days where things kinda fall apart too... For hunting, this type of accuracy will work well as long as one keeps their cool at the moment of truth.
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Compound accuracy probably is not attainable for most of us. That's why God made the deers vitals the size of a paper plate!
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I saw a guy warm up at 50 yds. and then go to 75 yds. and the compound guys could not keep up with him, granted he is a two time National champ and two time word champ, but that was with bare bone wheelies. I think he was shooting a 33 or 36 pound bow, I can't remember exactly, but it was low #'s. He does not hunt but enjoys 3-D.
Oh, you could put both hands with thumbs touching around all of his arrows. I guess it's a good thing for the animals that he doesn't hunt.
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Several years ago, I took shooting lessons from Bob Wesley, 1981 longbow champion. One of his teaching methods is, starting from 10 yards, once you achieve 3 out of 5 arrows in a 9" circle, you can move back 1 yard. 3 years later, I can put 3 out of 5 in a 9 inch circle at 25 yards consistently. And I'm happy with that. On a good day I can do that at 30 yards, and sometimes in a 5 inch circle at 30 yards. But I have to practice hard, sometimes twice a day, and I try to shoot every day, or at least 3 to 4 times a week, sometimes more,
It's simple arithmetic, the more you put into it the more you get out of it. Roy Clark practiced his guitar 8 hours a day, look what he was able to achieve. I enjoy shooting my bow, but have found that if I take it to seriously, it’s not fun anymore. And then sooner or later we have to come to the realization, that where not going to be another Howard Hill.
Sometime I think we can be our biggest enemy. My biggest problem, I have too many bows. Someday I hope to get down to 3 bows, I have fifteen.
Old Mongolian saying: Forget about archery for one day, and it forgets about you for 10.
Good Luck, and have fun!
Just my opinion, I could be wrong!
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Here's my best group at 20 yards. The problem is, this is an anomaly. I usually don't shoot this good at 20 -- my shots at 15 and below are usually like this. The thing is that now that I know I can do it, I get frustrated when I don't. Ha! Two years ago I was excited just to get 50% of my shots in the paper plate, now I'm expecting bulls-eyes on every shot. Been watching too many trick-shot videos on YouTube! (Those videos hardly ever show the misses, am I right?)
(http://distilleryimage7.s3.amazonaws.com/2673bdd6836511e2979622000a1fb04f_7.jpg)
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I remember doing some research on Jack Howard. He was shooting one of his bows out of a machine and the arrows were going into a group of around 2 inches or so at 75 yds. That is with a recurve but I doubt the inherant accurace of a long bow would be any different.
I don't think there are many people that have developed the ability to utilize the latent accuracy of archery equipment to the full potential. People have different levels of ability and different levels of commitment. It is really up to you. I would say that if you worked hard at it, got some decent coaching or instruction and finally came to a point that your shooting was not improving anymore, that would be your realistic limit.
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I don't think it's a steady progression for most people. Rick Welch warned me that I would probably plateau, or even get worse, at times, and if I had the commitment and patience to work through those periods, then I could continue to improve afterwards. This has certainly proved to be true in my case.
My frustration is that I would like to shoot 200 arrows a day, and now that I'm retired, I actually have the time to shoot 200 arrows a day, but the old bod won't let me shoot 200 arrows a day. The old elbows and shoulders are always just on the verge of acting up at about 50 - 75 arrows a day, and if I push it much more than that, then I know I'm going to have problems. Just have to try to learn more from each arrow, I guess!
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Originally posted by Retnuh Wob:
I remember doing some research on Jack Howard. He was shooting one of his bows out of a machine and the arrows were going into a group of around 2 inches or so at 75 yds. That is with a recurve but I doubt the inherant accurace of a long bow would be any different.
I don't think there are many people that have developed the ability to utilize the latent accuracy of archery equipment to the full potential. People have different levels of ability and different levels of commitment. It is really up to you. I would say that if you worked hard at it, got some decent coaching or instruction and finally came to a point that your shooting was not improving anymore, that would be your realistic limit.
Nicely put!
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i pretty much only shoot at clay pigeons these days and small game for all my target practice. 4 of 5 clays. 40yds at the longest.
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Nitroboy,
I understand what you are asking. As a kid I shot traditional and then for the next 35 years shot a compound - leagues, tournaments the whole gig. I was, at one time, a 300 shooter. About 3-4 years ago I went back to traditional and have only shot my longbows since then.
When I started trad again I figured a reasonable goal was a 240 on an NFAA 20 yard target. Little did I know how hard a 240 really is - anyone can shoot one or two great groups at 20 yards but to put 60 arrows in the right spot is much more difficult.
Today, 3 1/2 years after starting back in traditional archery I finally achieved my 240 for the first time. 77-82-81
Am I satisfied? NO! I've now shot a 240 so next is a 245 or 250. I get marginally better every year. Is a 300 on the NFAA round possible? mmmmmmm probably not, but working to always be a better shot is what I am all about. The long and the short of it is - don't settle for what you feel is marginal accuracy. Shooting traditional with consistent accuracy is much more difficult than my wheel days but it is also much more satisfying. Accuracy and consistency are possble.
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Well, I think the first thing to say is you will generally find that guys don't shoot nearly as well as they describe online. Attend any bigger 3d shoot and you will e surprised how fast people's groups grow. As was stated above, one group means nothing, I have many pictures of groups I've shot where all of my arrows are touching, but there is a reason I didn't take a picture of the next group.
I also use to shoot compound, and was a pretty good shot. With a compound I figured 1"-10 yards was good(1" group at 10 yards, 2" group at 20 yards, etc). Now, with a recurve I would say quadruple that is pretty good(4" group at 10 yards, 8" at 20 yards, etc).
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PSU Bowhunter speaks the truth -- I've seen posts referring to softball-sized groups at 35 yards or golfball-sized groups at 12-15 yards. Very few can consistently shoot at that level...
All you can do is put the time in to work on your form, get a good coach, be willing to listen and let the chips fall where they may (or, let the arrows group where they may).
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I am continuously working on my Trad skills since shooting less than an year.
Anyone have any feedback on the Byron Ferguson Archery School at Goodman Ranch in TN?
Thought about going but little expensive just wondered if anyone had been or it was worth it?
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Jack,
I went to Byron's class at the Goodman ranch a few years ago. ABSOLUTELY enjoyed it!! Ya a little pricy but don't forget that is including your room and board (darn good food) at the ranch. Fishing available and pleasant campfires on the patio in the evening.
Byron is great and you will get out of it what you put into it plus meet some new friends. Byron was always there even "after hours" unlike some that disappear after the class.
I recommend it if within your budget.
Arne
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Hey Moebow, is this you?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55208870/Moebow.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55208870/moebow2.jpg
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I have to admit that it is. The first picture with the bottle cap skewered by the arrow is my computer screen picture. One of the best shots I ever made.
Arne
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Moebow, what were the circumstances under which you made that shot with the bottle cap. Distance,ect. If you don't mind me asking.
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We were shooting in the field one day and Byron put some pennies on the nocks of some arrows that were stuck in the ground in front of the targets. We shot at those for a while -- some of us hit ours, I still have the broken penny too.
Then Byron placed that water bottle cap on an arrow (used a little piece of tap to make it stay up on the arrow nock) then let each of us shoot one arrow at the cap. IF I remember correctly the distance was between 15 and twenty yards. Also, IF I remember correctly there were nine of us in the class and I was the 7th or 8th to shoot at the cap. You can see the result. The last one or two students elected to NOT shoot after that lucky shot of mine. Byron had that picture on his "school" page for a while but I haven't been to the web site now for a long time. Don't know if it is still there or not.
Arne
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Thanks for your response Moebow. It's tougher staying focused and tuned -in with others watching.(at least for me) I have days I can shoot that well, but know one knows it but me. :) Could I do on cue? Probably not. Great shot.
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I'm glad to hear the Byron Ferguson class at the Goodman Ranch is worth it. I hope to attend the November class this year and learn his "become the arrow" system. I've been very consistent at 20 yards - shooting 245-255 on NFAA 20-yard indoor targets every week this year in my league - but at longer distances I can't command that degree of accuracy. I hope Mr. Ferguson can help me with that.
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Originally posted by Retnuh Wob:
I remember doing some research on Jack Howard. He was shooting one of his bows out of a machine and the arrows were going into a group of around 2 inches or so at 75 yds. That is with a recurve but I doubt the inherant accurace of a long bow would be any different.
I don't think there are many people that have developed the ability to utilize the latent accuracy of archery equipment to the full potential. People have different levels of ability and different levels of commitment. It is really up to you. I would say that if you worked hard at it, got some decent coaching or instruction and finally came to a point that your shooting was not improving anymore, that would be your realistic limit.
Good answer, I'm getting 6" groups consistently at 20 yds but am working on getting tighter, my goal is 6" at 25yds if I can achieve that, ill be happy
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I've got news for you, when you acheive the 6" group at 25 yds, you won't be happy. You'll just want to extend it to 30 yds. It's the nature of the beast.
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My goal is 3 shots and three deer this fall. Just want to hit the vital spot I am lookning at!
I for one hate to shoot at a paper target. I blank bale and then move to my 3D target. Thyr to do a little shoting every evening.
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Just recently Ive been able to consistently hit a golf ball at 37 paces within 3 arrows. Instinctive shooting. I notice when I am not focused and know I'm gonna miss even before the loose. I also shoot one arrow, retrieve, shoot and retrieve for hours sometimes. Might I add, I go rovering several time a week for hours at a go. Practice 8 yard shots and 80, most fall about 35 or so.
Is that great accuracy? I dunno, depends on the situation. Shooting at a live animal or in a competitive environment, is whole different ball game.
Aim small, miss small, right?
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My three arrow groups are tighter than my 6 arrow groups. the more arrows that one shoots, the harder it gets to concentrate on each shot. Out stump shooting, I am always amazed how easy milkweed pods are to hit out to 40 yards with one arrow. Put a picture of a milkweed on my target and then go way into my neighbor's yard to get to that 40 yard shot, that milkweed seems like it is a mile away and the number of hits will no way down. When I was shooting with sights that 40 yard target was not so tough, but out hunting that 40 yard shot was mystery. Hunting shots are not the same as target shots, the train of thought is completely different. I would suggest that once reasonable accuracy is gained, the next big improvement is being able to use that accuracy in diverse situations and at challenging timing situations. One of the hardest things to learn is shot timing and getting off a smooth accurate shot when the game is not cooperating. I hunt mostly on the ground, and in nearly 50 years of hunting deer with a bow, I have seen very few game animals that act like targets and stand at the perfect place and angle for a good shot. So as I said, once that target shooting thing is going good for you, the next step is to see how many situations you can make that accuracy work for you.
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I think this post has some of the best advice yet!