Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Machino on April 27, 2013, 01:34:00 PM
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Hello all. I have been bit by the traditional bug for a little over a year now. I have a 52# toelke whip and I am having a 52# takedown whip being made (which I will have to show you guys, the wood is wow!)
Anyway, he pretty much taught me how to shoot and I have adopted "his style". I would call it a modified split finger. Ring and middle in a deep claw on the string below arrow and the index pointed straight. Index (first distal) is brought up to the temple pocket. Anchor and release. I'm just trying to find someone who shoots like this just to pick their brain about some little things on form and in general how they like it. Thanks
DT
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Dan is the Man. Period.
But...I had to go back to my normal 3 under form...more like 2.5 under actually.
When I shot Dans way I couldnt get the fishtail out of my arrows. I gave it a honest month or 2 and tried some different shafts etc. Arrows flew like darts with my normal form. Seemed wierd to me and I couldnt pin down the reason.
Index on the "temple pocket" seems awful high to me. Equal to your eye ball in height is it not? He had me resting the index finger on the very back half inch or so of the arrow shaft (in line pointing toward the target). Like everything else I change it seemed awesome at first but eventually I went back to what works for me. Perhaps if I had more coaching....who knows.
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while I dont use that exact style anchor, Dan has walked me through a couple issues with ease over the phone. He has a nack for knowing what your doing wrong simply by the description of the problem, even when not "common" issues.
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Recently, Dan told me that he could get me an extra inch of draw,my normal 25" has increased to a bit over 26" shooting how Dan has instructed. My shooting to the left problem has pretty much disappeared. For the most part I have only got to use the new style on a short 52" recurve that is 55 @ 25, and the extra 5+ pounds kicked my butt. But last weekend I shot one of the best rounds of archery golf I have ever shot. Next week I will be starting with the self bows I plan to hunt with this fall. So far I am impressed with the results, would like to make it up and have Dan help me a bit with getting the index finger secure on the jaw bone.
Thanks,
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Thanks for all the responses. I recently switched to some 70-75# surewoods and they have been flying great. Now I am trying to go through form again and tighten some things up.
Like Tim said, I feel like you get every bit of draw length out of the bow with this anchor and that extra bit seems to give me great trajectory. I remember Dan saying something like "rip the limbs off the bow" with a powerstroke shot and every time I do that it shoots great. The biggest problem I have is the thumb knuckle. Dan explain it as: Seat your index in the temple pocket, lock your thumb behind the jaw, then release. Locking the thumb seems to be the thing I never can get just right. Just trying to get some feedback. Thanks for the responses.
DT
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How about some pics of what you changed to increase draw length.
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Currently I am out of town working on cell towers. That's what the take down will be for. I could try to explain though. With most anchors, be it three under or split, they are anchoring somewhere around the corner of the mouth. With Dan's anchor it at least an inch further back and higher. Try putting your index finger on your temple with the pocket of your index and thumb resting around your cheek bone. Point at your target and release.
DT
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I've never tried the anchor you describe, but went to a Rick Welch workshop and adapted his style. While I've abandoned the "nose to the cock feather" I've kept the middle finger to the corner of the mouth and the thumb knuckle behind the jaw bone. I think the latter of the two really makes the anchor "repeatable" and consistent.
Good luck!
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I really can't understand what you are describing.You do know that the temple is behind and above the eye?How do you anchor there?
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I'm confused also!!!
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I'm with Jim and Brian! Sounds very unorthodox; I, too, need to see pictures. Sounds exceedingly high to me. NOT saying it doesn't work, just very different and I doubt I'd try to teach it to others.
Arne
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This is what I'm seeing when you describe it to us. Is this what you mean?
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q618/brianlocal3/5FA91289-0A4B-4E12-A28A-9CE1FAF63B29-18873-0000288B7FDFF1DF_zps5cc18926.jpg)
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That can't be right can it ???
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It's really not about the height of the anchor, Dan would not want an anchor as high as the one in the picture. It's really about moving the anchor point back so that you are inside the bow, and the elbow is either in line with the string or slightly inside the string. The anchor that Dan is talking about is really about getting the back of the thumb bone in firm contact with the jawbone, to have a bone on bone anchor. For a height reference the cheek bone could be used. But, it's more about opening the bow up and getting into the back muscles with proper alignment.
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I know the bowstring digs into my eyebrow when I anchor, but I don't think your temple is the right point...
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Okay, I read this post this moring and while out stump shooting I gave it a try. The 2 under with index finger on the arrow really was rock solid and repeatable for me. Here's how it looks for me.
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad340/dageezer/Form%20two%20under/aa5f3944-a134-4897-ba08-20414a06ef8b.jpg) (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/dageezer/media/Form%20two%20under/aa5f3944-a134-4897-ba08-20414a06ef8b.jpg.html)
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad340/dageezer/Form%20two%20under/b4e23a12-26fc-4d3a-9d52-f021d5c122b3.jpg) (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/dageezer/media/Form%20two%20under/b4e23a12-26fc-4d3a-9d52-f021d5c122b3.jpg.html)
(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad340/dageezer/Form%20two%20under/444aad4b-8262-4b93-b2cb-10f72c165217.jpg) (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/dageezer/media/Form%20two%20under/444aad4b-8262-4b93-b2cb-10f72c165217.jpg.html)
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Geezer, that's very close to the way Dan shoots. If he were to critic you he would have you move your index finger up to your eye level and slightly more forward, hooking your cheek bone with the crook between your index and thumb. Didn't mean to cause so much confusion. Its seems Dan has a good system and just was curious who else uses it.
DT
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Geezer, keep us posted on this please.
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I see 2 issues with this method. Such a high anchor places a lot of stress on the deltoids making it hard to get good proper back tension and follow through. Putting the anchor far back towards the side of the face will put the arrow out of alignment with the eye. This is not a problem if you shot instinctive but kinda defeats the point of the high anchor which helps gapping.
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Mike Fedora teaches a similar method. He will tell you to keep your face square to the target and your chin next to the shoulder for another reference. This tilts your head slightly down and you will be cupping the cheek bone without the high elbow. Your anchor position changes from middle finger to ring finger at the eye tooth. Another reference this may give, depending on bowstring angle and face shape, is the string touches your eyebrow.
At first I thought this felt wierd and uncomfortable but I was exaggerating everything Mike was trying to teach me. All I had to do was keep my face square to the target and slightly bear down on the arrow.
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Hey guys, this is only my second day trying this, but Brianlocal3 asked to keep you updated. I’m not suggesting this is the correct way, just felt like trying something different.
I shoot split finger and do sometimes have a hard time letting loose of the string smoothly because I normally anchor “to far” back on my face. I have shot 3 under but didn’t like the noise and my index finger seem to hook the string sometimes. I also ended up even higher on my face with the arrow. The Toelke method interests me because of my personal shooting demons.
Machino, I just find it more repeatable and comfortable to have my index finger relaxed on the arrow. Probably not correct, but feels good.
In the pictures I realize I did not have a deep enough hook with my ring finger, which brings the elbow down just a little. The arrow shaft is tight under my cheekbone, which seems to have me looking right down the arrow.
I find that I need a solid deep hook with the ring and middle finger. Both of my hands must be relaxed. No tight grip on the longbow for me. I have to have good back tension and feel like I’m pushing with my bow shoulder and have a fairly straight bow arm elbow. A “to far” back anchor is the only place I find I can feel back tension.
Again, I only put the pictures on so folks could see approximate position of everything. I wouldn’t suggest trying to change anyone else. I just want to thank Machino for posting it in the first place so I can have fun trying it!
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Geezer,
Thanks for te update. If its working for you that's AWSOME. Its nice to see how others shoot so thanks for taking the time to tell us of your experience
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Having not spoken with Dan in a long while, I believe the point is to make sure that when you are establishing your anchor it is not the primary focus where you touch your face, rather it is to make sure you are at your strongest position. Most archers try to establish face contact first, very often they end up in a pre collapse position. When you are at your correct draw length, shooting from your anchor, you will "feel" how strong of a position it is. It enables you to fully engage your back on the shot and helps to keep a relaxed string hand.
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Thanks for the responses guys. I know this anchor is unconventional, but coming from a guy like Dan, I'm giving it some credit. One only has to go on Toelke's site and see his double robin hood for proof. Granted, I'm still learning a lot. I here so many good reviews of his bows and I certainly like them so I figured I would try using his "style" as well.
When I was getting coached by him there were some things he was adamant about:
Squaring your head to the target
Holding the bow in the aiming position before draw
Keeping body and head still during draw
deep hook
anchor index finger to temple (with a square head to target this does put the arrow right under the eye)
anchor thumb behind cheek bone
release with good back tension
Again this was just a query to see if any were using this style. I know its not standard but it seems to work for me so I think I might stick with it. Thanks for all the responses.
DT
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Not a method for those of us wearing glasses!
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I've been shooting recurves the past 20 years and always anchored at the corner of my mouth. Five months ago I started shooting an R/D longbow. Even with 10 lbs less draw weight than my recurve the lighter mass was giving me trouble. Two weeks ago (reasons unknown) I anchored to the side of my face and immediately experienced way more stability at full draw. My left misses disappeared. I tuck my middle finger up under my cheek bone and up against the upper portion of the lower jaw. For me, my release feels much smoother. Also, since the arrow is more in my peripheral vision my accuracy seems better.
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It is always interested to have discussions about shooting mechanics. When it comes to the actual draw, is the index finger uncurled when you reach full draw or are you keeping it relaxed and on the outside of the shaft as you draw? I've taken a few shots in the basement and have tried it both ways. I have been shooting 3 under for a while but it's true for me that there is more noise. I like the idea of Toelke's method as it seems to put the drawing focus on the middle finger and avoids the upper (index) finger putting excess pressure on the nock at release.
And after putting some thought into it, the corner of the mouth seems to pull my head out of square with the target, side of head anchor seems to allow better squaring up. Interesting stuff.
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I still can't figure out how this works from the description. There is no way I'm getting the end of my index finger in my temple area unless my ear is in the mix. I'm trying to sort it out on my head but more pics might help.
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Oregon,
Look at the pictures posted by Near Geezer, he has it pretty close. His elbow is a bit high, which after a day of shooting would manifest its self with a blister on the third finger, experience! The index finger shouldn't be on the string as much as it appears, to be, and maybe it isn't, other than that he is dang close!
Thanks,
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I think Mr. Toelke's going to be at the Western States Traditional Rendezvous. This would be interesting to see, and I know my wife will want to ask him about her bow, which she bought used. We both can use shooting form help!
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I put in over a week at the 2 under. The two under felt very comfortable to anchor to my face, very natural. I felt like the release was super clean.
I did develope a wobble in my arrows after 4 days of shooting well with this form. I think it was probably caused from torqueing the bow. I just could not seem to overcome this wobble. If I did get a few shots right, I couldn't be sure what was different. The wobble would come right back.
I may try this form again at a later date, but for now it's back to split finger. With split finger I always seem to be able to tell what I'm doing wrong when I'm not shooting well. I suspect that would be the same with 2 under if given eough time, I just don't want to devote that much time to it right now.
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Just to clarify, are you drawing split, then straightening the index finder to outside the string path, or are you drawing with the index finger straight? I have been drawing split, then moving the index and have been smacking arrows together.
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I draw with the two fingers under in a deep hook with the hand relaxed. This leaves my index finger relaxed on the arrow shaft. The index finger ends up on my cheek bone. This is very natural and repeatable for me.
I did shoot two under today and seemed to find the answer to my fish tailing problem. If I shoot with a straight bow arm my torqueing issue goes away. With the straight bow arm I was wacking everything I shot at.
I guess I'll have to stick with this form for awhile. The way it was working today was better than I am able to shoot.
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Thanks for the info, geez. I have been shooting three under for about a year but have tried the Toelke/2 under with excellent results. I think when I try to shoot regular split I get a bit too pinchy on my nock. The two under without the index finger involved seems like an improvement vs. 3 under for me as I tend to get uneven drawing hand finger pressure shot to shot. I have also been using my index at the corner of my mouth but using the higher anchor (cheek bone.index knuckle in the temple) is yielding a slightly longer draw and better drawing arm/arrow alignment. Again, I am seeing more consistency and accuracy. Guess that Toelke feller know his stuff.
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While I have a pretty typical anchor, middle finger in the corner of mouth and base of thumb knuckle behind jaw bone, I do take the string in a similar fashion. My index finger above the arrow only applies light pressure. I torque the string less, and dont pinch the nock. If I move my anchor any higher the arrow is no longer under my eye and my elbow gets pretty high also.
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I had a crash course from Dan on this type of anchor. For me, the anchor points with his style are as follows: My thumb joint (first joint at base of hand) is at the back of my jaw bone. Index finger joint (first joint at the base of my hand) anchored at the back of my cheek bone. Though I'm new to this style of release, the anchor is very solid and repeatable.
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Dan helped me alot in 2 phone calls. 1st he got me to quit using a glove and use a cordovan tab. 2nd was to quit anchoring in the corner of my mouth. Split finger with the knuckle of my index on my cheek bone. Thumb anchors along the jaw bone. As I achieve anchor I relax tension on the index finger til it is pretty loose. Never tried putting it on the arrow. My bottom finger has very little tension either. 95% of the tension is on my middle finger just under the nock. This gives a very direct pull.
Also very strict on chin square to target. Cant is OK but it must be square to the target.
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I have a Toelke Whip. Great info in these posts. I wish very much that Dan or someone would make short instructional video on DVD or YouTube. It would be great content for his website or he could sell them with his bow. A video is worth a thousand words. I think everyone here would love to see it? I'll buy the first one.
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There is a picture of Jared Toelke on the montanabows site where you can see the anchor perfectly.
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I think this style of anchor would depend largely on facial structure. I have a very small inter-pupilary distance which makes buying binoculars difficult. Most of them don't close enough to get a clear, round picture.
If I keep my head perfectly square to the target, my sighting eye will be inside (the bow side) of the arrow. If I were to anchor with the string pressed into the flesh behind my eye as in the picture, I'd rip my eyebrow and half my cheek off.
I used to have a longer draw, anchoring on my jaw bone, but found the classic anchor with my middle finger at the corner of my mouth gives me a cleaner, more consistent release. I do have to tip my head just a hair to get my eye out over the arrow. Nothing really pronounced, just a slight tip and turn as I line up the shot and then letting my rotating elbow pull the string into my anchor point while keeping my head still.
I will never be a really good shot, but this seems to work the best for me and is reliable out to 25 - 30 yards, which is way beyond my hunting distance.
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Ttt
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So if you were to get a bow built for this shooting style....
Would you get tillered for 3U or split???