Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: txcookie on September 17, 2016, 05:14:00 PM
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I have 100 percent confidence in a 15 yard shot. I wouldn't say that about 20. Been at this a month so is my progression normal? Does it really take that long to get proficient at 20?
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It can take a lot longer to get proficient at 15...are you working with a coach or mentor?
DDave
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20 to 25 is where I hit the wall. I said I was just gonna shoot 25 til I got it right but always find myself back at 15 to 20 to keep my sanity. Keep at it and remember it's suppose to be fun.
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It took me 2-3 years...and turn another 2 years to be good out to 25
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Wow. I can't hunt yet. I know I don't have the discipline to let a good deer walk at 20
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That's part of hunting, knowing your limitations and sticking to them. If you can shoot only five yards, go out. That is a large part of the learning too. But DO NOT shoot at something farther than you are proficient. That's just the way it is.
ChuckC
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For me, inside 17 yards is my ethical hunting range. I can shoot good from time to time out to 25 yards, but not enough to risk wounding an animal. It's amazing just how much the accuracy suffers adding just 3 yards to the shot !
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Quit ranging your shots and the mental block goes away.
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It's maddening. Some groups are 3 inches others a foot. I'm just loosing it in back yard. At 15 I'm just money but 5 more yards and I'm 50 50
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Try to keep 20 consecutive arrows on a 9 inch paper plate. What ever distance that is that should be your effective range. Least that's what Frisky told me. LOL
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I have no ego lol. I'm at 45 pounds now and I honestly don't feel it. I can hold draw for about 10 seconds before I need to let down.im not ashamed to buy some 35 limbs to train with. May do just that
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Keep in mind that most deer are shot at less than 15 yards .
For me , it comes down to how It feels . I have shot deer over 20 yards , and I have passed up shots at less than 15 yards just because it didn't feel right .
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If you want to dial in at 20 yards, spend a lot of time shooting 25-30 yards. Dont mess with 20 at all for quite a while. Dedicate, and work 25-30 yards and improve there. Only then, move back up to 20. Mentally your thinking 20 is far. After shooting the longer distance a while, 20 seems close and you will tighten up there.
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As shadow hunter said. To get good at 20 practice at 25 or 30. Errors in you shooting will show up better and you can get them dialed in. Then back in to 20 yards and watch what happens.
I often shoot at 40 and 50 to work on my shooting errors as they are easy to see in the hit locations. Makes me lethal out to 30. But I never take shots at deer further than 25 and most I kill are under 15.
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I agree on the longer yardage practice. If you feel your form is good back up to 30 and shoot good controlled shots. It will make twenty look a lot better. I always shoot long yardage during practice. Makes me really confident in hunting distances. Make sure your having fun with your shooting!!
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At 15 yards and under, its very easy to see a small 'spot' to hit - at 20 and beyond, for most folks, its harder to pick a small spot which equates to less accuracy at those ranges…Also, the longer the distance the more pronounced errors in the shot become.
PM me and I will share some of the things I have learned about improving your shooting…
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Please consider tracking down someone who is quite skilled regarding shot execution and hopefully someone that you can relate to.
Most of the individuals that I have worked with can mark fairly well out to 25 yards after 5 sessions provided they are themselves receptive to my own instruction.
My newest guy that I took on his first traditional bow hunt today was effectively bareshafting at 25 yards after five sessions.
He had never shot a traditional bow before.
There are certain mandatory requirements that must be fulfilled to permit the bow to shoot. A tuned bow is dying to place the arrow on the mark. Making rocket science out of shooting and enjoying the traditional experience has withheld competency and confidence from many.
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Let me change ideas,keep your 45lb bow and stick within your comfort zone. Many if not most of all my bow kills are at ranges under 15 yards. Don't have the will power to pass up a longer shot? Hunt tighter!
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Just keep shooting at various ranges, and hang with it. All of us have days where we are very accurate and days where we are not accurate at all. That is just part of archery, but if you continue to shoot you will get better. I am working on 25 yards, and have been for months, so I understand your frustration. You can't force it, so just let it happen.
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Break down your shot. There are a lot of things going on in an archery shot sequence.
The best advice I received as a trad nube was to first work on left/right variability. Shoot at a backstop (I used a compressed bale of hay) that has a vertical line down the middle of it. I wrapped my bale in plastic wrap (heavy duty Saran Wrap to "weatherize" it). Then I placed a long piece of masking tape vertically down the middle of it (standing the bale on the short edge, so it stands "tall"). I then place another piece of masking tape across the "short" axis of the bale about 4-5" from the bottom, the top and one across the middle (all horizontally across the bale's short axis).
My "standard" distance is 20 yards, but I practice at 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30, and then move back to find my "point" on distance.
I shoot 3 under.
I put the arrow point on the lowest tape intersection and then focus on my release. I really don't care if the arrow/impact has high / low variation, but I AM interested in L/R variation. This isn't really "blank bale" shooting, as I am not shooting at a blank target. I am putting the arrow tip on a "mark" (tape intersection). After that shot sequence step of "aiming", I focus on DEVELOPING BACK TENSION (not neck/trapezoid stress), RELEASE, and BOW ARM FOLLOW THROUGH. I take 5 shots.
When I first started trad shooting, (3+ years ago), I didn't have groups. I had "clusters" that were mostly on the target. As time/practice passed, I'd notice 3/5 arrows in a "group", then time passed, and I got 4/5 arrows in a group, then sometimes 5/5. Then the groups got smaller.
Once I got a representative 5 shot group, I was able to experiment with arrow tuning by trying different shafts (I own Easton xx75 aluminum Tributes in 1816, 1916, and 2016. All with 4" parabolic x 3 /shaft feathers.). I also experimented with shaft tip weights. This doesn't really help "precision", but it does help in adjusting L/R (weak/strong) issues. I also experimented with strike plate thickness. But, GROUP SIZE, was addressed and improved by this semi-blank bale arrow point-on-a-mark drill. I was told that if you get your release a follow through addressed (isolated by this drill), accuracy will improve. I was told L/R practice would be the biggest improvement to work on, and that horizontal (up/down) issues will follow. "They" were right.
You don't HAVE to use the horizontal tape lines and use a point-on aiming point. Perhaps this is even too much to process. Break it down further, and just put the arrow tip on the vertical line- anywhere, and focus on release. This still isn't true "blank bale" shooting, as you are focusing (and aiming) at a vertical line. True blank bale shooting breaks the shot sequence down to the most elemental issue of just plunking arrows into a safe backstop, while you solely focus on release. If you get feet positioned right, you can do this with your eyes closed, really "feel" the release. So, breaking down a shot sequence to the most basic element IS very helpful (and recommended). The drill of aiming at a mark or tape intersection is has an aiming component-so it MAY be too much at first. Don't be afraid to "simplify" the drill down to "just vertical" or "true blank bale/not aiming" release drills. I would wager any of these drills will help your group size and consistency.
I also do another drill, but without my bow. It's really "blank bale shooting" without a bow. I use it to focus on back tension, and release/follow through of my drawing arm. I shoot right handed (draw with right hand). I grab my left and right hand finger tips across my upper chest/collar bone area and then raise my right hand up to my anchor point (my left hand is "the string"), and pull horizontally equally laterally outward (simulating drawing, or holding, the string). I focus on having an upright, stress-free neck, feeling my back muscles pull. Then I gradually "release" with my right hand. I want to see/feel a quick and natural recoiling of my right hand. I don't try to touch my right shoulder or face with my draw hand as an "end point". I just let it "pop" out from the release about 6"(?) like a spring, or a "cut rope that was under tension." In "The Wedge" video series on youtube, they call this a "natural release." I don't do it every time, but that is what I'm trying to achieve.
with this bowless drill, I am trying to "breakdown" one/two aspects of my shot sequence: my back tension and my "cut-rope draw hand release pop-back." I can do this drill just about anywhere ( at work). It also develops muscle tone in your back, shoulders and fingers. I find it very useful for my needs. It's helpful to do this in front of a mirror too, to verify an erect (stress free) head position, and "pop back" of the draw hand upon "release".
Accuracy improvement in any shooting sport is a journey. It requires patience, a plan, recording notes (things you tried, and results), and future thoughts on shot/form analysis. You'll improve with practice time and desire.
So, be patient. Breakdown your shot sequence. Don't try to make a "perfect shot." Work on making "perfect form"-and the perfect shot will follow.
Another benefit from the drill of shooting at a vertical-horizontal line/intersection is that if you do it at various distances, you also learn about the gap (or trajectory) your arrow has above that aiming point, whether you shoot at 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30 yards. Write down your gaps (arrow impact height about aiming point) with any arrow/tip weight at 10, 15, 20, 15, 30+ yards. You will develop useful trajectory curves which will aid in "up/down" variables later. It will also help you decide on the best compromise for selection of arrow shaft and tip weight. A big reference point on these trajectory / gap curves is noting your nock position above perpendicular (higher nock, lower gap) for each distance/arrow shaft/tip weight etc.
There are excellent youtube videos available. I like many, but Col. Jimmy Blackmon and Vabowdog (Dewayne Martin) have EXCELLENT videos on gapping and nock position for tuning ( I believe both were national trad archery champions in 3d or vegas targets, so they know what they are doing). Arnie Moe has several excellent videos on youtube on archery form (he is a regular visitor/poster on this website-a great "local" resource.")
Shooting at a vertical line (or "point-on" at the tape intersection), takes half the variables out. You don't get distracted with up/down AND L/R issues. To me, that's how you improve. I was able to find things that were hurting my accuracy, as I had twice the focus on half the variables. It works for me-and I still do it.
GO VERTICAL! Good luck. Be patient.
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If you're not yet, started stumpin..
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If you can pick a spot the size of a poker chip it can help you hit it at any range. It's when you aim at the entire target that the problems seems to start for me. The farther back I go the harder it gets for me to pick it.
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Originally posted by BWallace10327:
Quit ranging your shots and the mental block goes away.
Exactly what i was gonna say.
Not that I am great at 30-40 but I know when I can hit or not on a live animal.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
Originally posted by txcookie:
I have no ego lol. I'm at 45 pounds now and I honestly don't feel it. I can hold draw for about 10 seconds before I need to let down.im not ashamed to buy some 35 limbs to train with. May do just that
My friend, you are over bowed. I can hold for 90 seconds straight before letting down and still consider myself slightly over bowed.
My personal benchmark for not being over bowed is being able to hold at full draw for 2 minutes straight with no shaking.
I want to be in complete control over that bow during every point of the shot cycle.
Going down to 35# would be a really good idea. Plus since the limbs are a lower poundage they will force you to clean up your release.
Worst come to worse you could still hunt with 35# limbs and just opt for a heavier arrow weight to make up for the loss in draw weight.
Sorry if I mentioned ego or anything but a lot of people shoot 55-60 and some even 70# draw weights and with no doubt in my mind they are over bowed.
Shooting those heavy draw weights is fine within 15 yards which is a very close range and most form issues will not show up but if you want to be able to back up to 20, 30, 40, and even 50 yards and beyond you're going to have to be in complete control over the bow even when fatigued.
The most elite Oly archers in the world are not even shooting higher than 50# so it does not surprise me when I hear about people limiting their shots to within 15 yards or so with a 55 to 70# draw weight.
Chances are they are only hunting within 15 yards because they are way over bowed. [/b]
Are you serious???? The guy has been shooting for one month. Overbowed or not, I would not expect him to be shooting well at 20yds one month into his trad journey.
Bisch
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Originally posted by txcookie:
Wow. I can't hunt yet. I know I don't have the discipline to let a good deer walk at 20
If this is true, then you are correct, and you should not be hunting yet. You have to know your effective range, and stay within it, or you are aking for less than stellar outcomes!
FWIW, I shoot almost all my critters under 15yds. A few at farther distance, but most under 15. I guess I'm overbowed too? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Bisch
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If you are shooting well at 15 yards then you should setup and hunt within that zone. Hunt but with the discipline and respect to pass on animals outside of YOUR effective range.
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Like its been said above for those of you trying to become proficient at a certain yardage,, I regretfully avoided deer hunting for 2 years because I felt I wasn't good enough,,,,,, shooting 3D's that had targets set up by compound shooters (work details) that where too far I judged myself on those distances..
never again,,,,,,, listen if you are only good at 10yds or maybe 15yds then you go and set up your ground spot or even treestand so you only have a 10 or 15yd shot,,,, find the spot in the field that caters to your comfort distance or learn self discipline..
keep in mind every traditional bowhunter needs to have discipline where we ALL should know our max distance and we ALL have to just watch game out of range( a good time to practice with a grunt turning them back to you)
so shooting 10 or 15yds and not allowing yourself to shoot any further is just something you will need to learn to do anyway,,,,,a person who takes Hale Mary shots at animals too far beyond their comfort zone is called a slob hunter.
my max shot is 25yds but I watch the animals actions and will only take that if they are not coming closer,, I prefer and will wait out the deer for a 10 or 15yd shot...
for practice I highly recommend adding another 5yds of practice distance to your distance goal so if you want to be able to shoot 20,, ((some quota hunts require a 20yd proficiency test here we even need to use broadheads))
so practice shooting 25yds for a comfort zone of 20 and so on,, always add 5yds.
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A library of books, articles and shooting DVD's will likely fall short in replacing excellent one on one training that may have one on track in short order.
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Yep....Shadowhunters comment...
Forget 20 and go straight to 25 or 30.
Your problem is NOT ego for God sakes... I'm not sure why people feel the need to label others as such unless they have an inferiority complex of their own and we do not tolerate lashing out and labeling people as egotistical for no reason at all. It serves no purpose but to make you look sissy. So leave your smart a.s.s remarks for some other Forum because we are not going to put up with it here.
I applaud you for wanting to improve learning to shoot at 30 will make you better at 20. I don't understand the argument for not practicing at longer distances then you would hunt ....that makes no sense either.
I'm moving this to the shooters Forum because that is the proper place for this thread best of luck to the original topic starter stay with it and have fun and ignore the jerks.
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"My friend, you are over bowed. I can hold for 90 seconds straight before letting down and still consider myself slightly over bowed.
My personal benchmark for not being over bowed is being able to hold at full draw for 2 minutes straight with no shaking. "
Frankly, I can't hold my arms up for two minutes without shaking.
Sounds a lot like G Fred's statement that if you can't bend over and around and shoot between your legs at an animal behind and below you coming from the South while you are facing West, you might be overbowed.
I think very few people hold their draw for five, much less ten seconds while in hunting mode/
There is another consideration here, and that is that maybe you ( Forest Dweller) are UNDERbowed.
Just give it time and practice. Go hunt, learn about bowhunting. Keep it close and forget about the need to shoot way out there while you learn, or buy a compound with sights and release.
ChuckC
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I found single arrow practice to be extremely beneficial. Put your full concentration into the shot, walk to get the arrow. You'll be well rested between shots and won't develop bad habits.
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Or you could just buy a gun and forget the whole thing...
And that sounds ridiculous don't it???... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't let anyone hold you down.... :readit:
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Or you could just buy a gun and forget the whole thing...
And that sounds ridiculous don't it???... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't let anyone hold you down.... :readit:
I know right Terry, people should only give solid advice and not be a.s.s's.
Right on brother!
I know when I started was egotistical and wanted to be macho shooting the heaviest bow possible. Thank God I didn't or else my form would be worse than it already is.
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Yeah....I don't shoot my 80# bows too often when hunting goffers out west....I like to shoot them with my 70#ers cause I can shoot them all day.
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Looks like some new folks don't know how we play in this sandbox. what's that?
"tick-tock"
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Oh....and btw...he's asking a shooting question.....not a hunting or ethical question.....let's please stay with the original question and intent and not go off on irrelevant tangents.
thx....
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As a member of the German Bow Association I shoot 3-D tournaments in the Bow Hunter Recurve class.
The max. distance for BHR is 55 yards.
To be safe and familiar to shoot 55 yards, it really helped to train 65 and 70 yard.
After I was reasonably familiar with 65 and 70 yards, the 50 yard were no problem at least.
This works with any range also on your desired distance.
Shoot longer distances to get stabil with closer distances.
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Its all about forum it shows up @ longer yardage. Do not get discouraged just stick with it.Its forum,forum and then some. Trust me it does not happen over night.
(http://i.imgur.com/8IpQ86i.jpg)
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Learning to shoot on your own, without guidance, can take a lot more time.
The big things about improving your shot are consistent form and a consistent shot sequence.
There are lots of great references out there. I'm a big fan of Masters of the Barebow vol. 3 and 4. They offer some valuable tools for improving, but obviously it takes time and dedication to get really good. There are lots of things that can "speed up" the process, like shooting a reasonable weight (45# is definitely a reasonable draw weight for your average adult male), shooting 3 under, and using a higher anchor. They're just tools though, and nothing takes the place of hard work.
Don't worry too much about distance. Shoot as far as you can while practicing, and just keep the shots closer in the woods. I've been shooting for years and I still don't shoot past 20 yards. If 15 was all I could handle, so be it. Going out again the next day is part of the enjoyment to me.
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I've been at this since 2008. I'm still struggling to keep all my arrows within the NFAA indoor target four ring, which is my self appointed concept of 20 yard accuracy.
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Went to one arrow th as t helps and saves my shoulders and elbows. Stepping it up to 25 to see if it will improve my 20. Set ng deer stands up with sub 15 yard groups. I will use this bow this weekend. I shooting way better at 20 now but I'm hitting low and having a hard time getting my self to hit 4 inches higher. Thanks for the help guys.
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Not sure if you're shooting instinctively, but if so, one routine that really helps me is to spend a few rounds staggering distances. Take a handful of arrows and shoot one from 15, then move to 20, 25, 30, etc. This really helps to train your brain when it comes to calculating and adjusting to different distances. Also, the smaller the target the better for developing your hand-eye. A tennis ball always works well.
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I agree with the last 3 posts longer yardages make you better in form errors and makes that 20yd shot look like 10. only thing I would add is having a really big back stop. that back stop will make you think of one less thing and that is losing arrows no one likes to lose arrows and that can play a big role in shot placement