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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: monterey on December 27, 2016, 02:37:00 PM
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I have heard it said on occasion and never thought it made any difference but lately I've been re thinking it. The reason being that I've been noticing that I'm far more "on" in the woods on birds, squirrels and bunnies than on targets.
It really stood out when I shot an nfaa indoor single bull. It was a struggle to keep three arrows in 8 inches at 20 yards. At the same distance I'm heck on pine cones and Stumps and am pretty hard on bunnies and even our very small pine squirrels.
My own thoughts are that field shots just don't involve as much thinking as paper.
BTW, this isn't me trying to explain rotten scores on targets. In fact that NFA target was the first I've shot in over twenty years. Don't shoot 3D or other competitions either.
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Yep. That's me too. I'm rather introverted and much prefer to shoot by myself or with close family. I am not at all competitive, other than with myself.
I've taken everything from chipmunks to elk. No problem shooting stump/leaf/grass clump/golf balls and bottle caps but paper targets are not my thing.
I don't understand it other than I don't enjoy shooting at a stationary, piece of paper with rings on it. I prefer hunting.
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I think my problem is in the paper giving the time to over think the shot. I enjoy competitions but only shoot them with ML.
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Probably you need to practice holding and AIMING on spots. It's a different ball game.
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I shoot terrible on paper... 3D, animals, and stumping much better
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That's me as well....paper targets, 3-d targets..etc. I just dont shoot very well on them. But in a hunting scenario I do just fine.
My practice sessions consist of shooting dandelions, dirt clods..etc around the house. That's what works best for me.
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In my humble opinion if you shoot true instinctive it is all the same no matter what you are shooting at. I hope you understand I'm in no way saying I am an expert or that I know it all, but I have been shooting instinctive since 1968 and it doesn't make any difference what I am shooting at. Concentrating on the spot and consistent form is what counts. If I can do that with each and every shot the arrow goes where I look no matter the target. Problem is I can't do it with each and every shot especially the older I get.
And I do think you can over think things and/or try too hard.
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I was a competitive indoor compound guy for years, my problem with paper is I get complacent I stop focusing on my shot sequence and really picking a spot I still shoot paper now and then but try to break it up with stumping
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Monterey ole boy.
It's called old age. Yer bow and arrahs are getting old............... :)
I shoot better at 3D targets and stumping than paper bulls eyes. Something about a bulls eye that messes me up.
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I think that, once we get past the adrenaline rush, concentration is more intense in the woods.
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I used to be alright on targets and really gave the squirrels a hard time but now I'm not much good at either. I think it's just old age and having to drop bow weight. Your poor shooting on an indoor target may be from fatigue and you probably don't take sixty shots in the woods so your accuracy is better.
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Happens to me too... Call it "over thinking" or "breaking down the shot" when it should just flow smooth... Part of being human, I guess... :archer2: ...
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Yep , don't think , just shoot .
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I think nearly everyone that shoots a subconscious method (split vision or instinctive) all shoot in the field or rather, targets that stand out where you can pick a point much better than paper.
The reason for this is because it's very very difficult to pick out a spot on a large piece of colored paper.
However, if we took a golf ball or tennis ball and placed it on the center of that same paper target I guarantee you that your score would shoot right up.
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Hmmmmm. I dunno. I love stump shooting, and think I do pretty well, but, if truth be told, if there were scoring rings around our targets in the field, I think we'd find we score there just about the same as we do on paper.
For me stump shooting is a lot more fun. I think I might forget those shots that are close, but not quite there. Can't do that with paper. It records the close misses. Or, put another way, the mind tends to remember the good shots, the poorer shots, not so much. I think that happens to me when stump shooting. When I shoot at paper, no way to deceive myself. YMMV.
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I don't shoot very goot at the big olympic style bull. I shoot way better tossing arrows at a stray leaf, or can, or pinecone. I do most my practice from stump style shooting. Plus its way more fun than standing in front of a stack of hay bales.
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Might be an issue with shot sequence. The stronger your mental game/shot sequence, the better you can shoot in new situations under different levels of stress. Joel Turner's section from MBB vol. 4 really helped me. Helped on paper, foam, and most importantly- in the woods.
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Originally posted by Straitshot:
In my humble opinion if you shoot true instinctive it is all the same no matter what you are shooting at. I hope you understand I'm in no way saying I am an expert or that I know it all, but I have been shooting instinctive since 1968 and it doesn't make any difference what I am shooting at. Concentrating on the spot and consistent form is what counts. If I can do that with each and every shot the arrow goes where I look no matter the target. Problem is I can't do it with each and every shot especially the older I get.
And I do think you can over think things and/or try too hard.
Great answer...but I would like to add my 2 cents onto what he said...
I TRULY DO believe that flat-non 3D AKA 'boring' targets CAN have a psycho blase effect on concentration or down right even caring at times. For some of us that flat backed target is so 'non hunting' we just don't perform as well at times on that target media.
Some of use have to work on it to stay focus and keep it a challenge.
I know of one hunter, as will 99% of you would know him if I mentioned his name, who shoots TOTALLY instinctive and he will outright admit he SUCKS on targets. This guy sure is hell in the field though!!!
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I had a friend who couldn't put 3 arrows in a 3 foot circle at 20 yds. with his longbow...ever but made a perfect kill on every critter he shot at. I guess it just works that way with some people.
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Ok, I guess I will be the oddball. I don't go for it. I think you are about the same on paper and 3D as you are on real animals.
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I am not that good, nor am I that driven to be. I shoot all the time and my goal with each and every shot is a dead deer. I want an arrow within a kill zone sized area of the target, what ever it is at the moment. Lots of folks strive for perfection. For me it's a "dead deer".
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Originally posted by JR Chambers:
Ok, I guess I will be the oddball. I don't go for it. I think you are about the same on paper and 3D as you are on real animals.
NO...you are not the 'oddball'. For YOU that may be the case...but certainly not for all as we are all different. Some fly rockets to the moon and others figure the trajectory....best not to switch them at countdown.
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Originally posted by JR Chambers:
Ok, I guess I will be the oddball. I don't go for it. I think you are about the same on paper and 3D as you are on real animals.
I think opinion on this is going to come directly
From the opiners own shooting style. I get the impression that most target shooters use a specific aiming system, such as gapping. I tried gapping in '71 and '72. At the time I worked on a masonry crew and had 20 minutes after lunch each day to practice on the sandpile used to mix mortar. Gap shot at a paper cup every day and became as accurate on targets as I'd ever been. At that time we were hunting Virginia whitetails exclusively from tree stands. With all the time that allowed, my only shot on a deer went exactly where it was aimed.
But, back in Colorado in '73 and still hunting and stalking mule deer it didn't work as well for me.
But, if. I had continued to be a gap shooter I'd probably be in agreement with you. Field shooting for me on Stumps or game tends to make each shot a highly focused intense process but it's also a very speedy process.
It's not that I shoot so good in the field. It's more that I shoot very poorly on paper. :)
Shooting aerials can get a person thinking about shot process!
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For me, when shooting paper targets, I develop target panic and can never just pick a spot. But when shooting at game, I can pick a spot, control my breathing, focus and release my arrow. Unless something like a 190 inch class buck comes down the path. Then, my heart rate is so jacked that I can hear my heart beating so hard that I think the deer can hear it. So there is a huge difference between paper and game. I am a firm believer that there is a huge difference between shooting paper, shooting 3D and shooting game. Lets be honest here, how many people here practice shooting in real hunting situations? Shooting from elevated positions? I can not speak for anybody else here, but when I shoot from a elevated position, my form is changed from when I shoot on flat ground. Shooting/practicing in a wooded area? Shoot/practice at game/3D in different angles? And for you who shoot from the blinds, do you practice sitting down, or shoot/practice from a actual blind? Or do you just stick your target or 3D target out in the back yard next to the fence? There is a lot to take into consideration here. Just my opinion.
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I agree that stumping seems to be way easier. I also shoot on a stickbow night at the local club during winter and I'm usually somewhat consistent from year to year.
But the last few years I've shot the outside course up to 60 yards. To hit those 30 yard plus targets consistently form has to be very consistent. And that has really upped my stumping and 3D shooting. I consider myself some what "instinctive" until point of aim shows up at 50 yards.
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
I shoot better at 3D targets and stumping than paper bulls eyes. Something about a bulls eye that messes me up.
Hah, Roy it's probably because the paper is set in close proximity to the Coors light. :biglaugh:
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Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I think that, once we get past the adrenaline rush, concentration is more intense in the woods.
I agree
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I have often heard the "shoots poorly in competition/field round but is deadly on game" comment. I don't buy it. It is my observation that guys/gals that fit that description wound a lot of game due to their poor shooting. They may kill more simply because they are better hunters and get more close encounters and shooting opportunities, not because they somehow become better archers when confronted with a live target.
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I never got good in the woods until I put time in on targets. Hated it at first but it paid off with a full freezer ever since. Still love to stump shoot, still practice out of position and out of a tree, but I try to shoot paper a few times a month just to keep an eye on things. When I don't it shows.
All targets (rings, foam, or fur) are the same, but sometimes it gets into your head and throws you off. We put so much emphasis on form but not nearly enough on building a strong shot sequence and sticking to it on every shot. Usually when my shooting gets sloppy it's a mental thing. It's the reason folks get TP, or can't shoot in front of people, or suck on targets, or can't gap/aim, or blow chip shots in the woods. Focus is on the wrong stuff during the shot. The best shooters can keep their mind in their shot under pressure, regardless of how they aim, how they shoot, or how they practice. A strong mental is invaluable.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
"I know of one hunter, as will 99% of you would know him if I mentioned his name, who shoots TOTALLY instinctive and he will outright admit he SUCKS on targets. This guy sure is hell in the field though!!!"
I think this individual might very well be Fred Bear. Could be wrong but he personally stated he wasn't very good in his opinion at shooting tournaments, but I bet he was better than he wanted to say. Then again perhaps he spent a lot more of his time hunting, preparing for hunts, and making bows than he did shooting in tournaments.
I just like archery and shooting arrows with a stick and string so I like all aspects of it whether it is hunting or shooting targets. Whether shooting at animals or targets as an instinctive archer the concept is the same.
Sure the adrenaline rush is greater when shooting at an animal than shooting at targets and that is precisely why someone might be great at target shooting and suck at killing an animal.
Unless you are shooting at rats and squirrels the X ring on a target is quite a bit smaller that the kill zone on most game.
Like I said, I just like shooting arrows and whether it is shooting them at animals, stumps, cans, or targets, I like it all!
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I really suck on paper targets unless I put something in the center to focus on. It simply does not lend itself to making me focus or concentrate enough for the way I shoot. I see a bullseye as a round ball. It is like looking at the whole animal and missing rather than concentrating on a spot on the animal. My opinion is that people who deliberately hold and aim tend to do better on bullseye type targets.
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It is harder for me to shoot paper in my backyard than on a course, too many cars driving by, gets me distracted.
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I've had similar experiences but the difference being great on small game but not good on big game. I talked to Mark Horne about it.
Mark explained to me that on small game you're targeting a small focal point whereas on big game you have to pick a specific spot, which I've struggled with in the past.
This year I did a few things to help me.
1. I put a clicker on my bow. I've got some target panick and it helped a lot with consistency.
2. I started shooting at a blank piece of card board and picking a spot to hit on a blank surface.
3. I set up a 3 d deer target and aim at a different spot every shot.
It seems to have helped but I'm always reading and ready to try new techniques if I think it will help me make better shots on game.
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Originally posted by Straitshot:
Originally posted by Terry Green:
"I know of one hunter, as will 99% of you would know him if I mentioned his name, who shoots TOTALLY instinctive and he will outright admit he SUCKS on targets. This guy sure is hell in the field though!!!"
I think this individual might very well be Fred Bear.
BW :D
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I shot better at one shot move on type shooting.
If you think about shooting targets with multiple faces and dots and colors it's no difference than this:
When a basket ball player drains 3s, he is not shooting at 6 hoops/goals there is one rim.
Baseball pitcher not throwing to 3 catchers and mitts there is one mitt.
Quarter back is not throwing to 5 receivers running down the line and the kicker is not kicking thru 3 goals.
My opinion is you fight how u train.
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The more we complicate our shooting process, the more complicated it gets when shooting at game. I do not mechanically gap when shooting at game, I do take a visual snapshot at about six inches from full draw. When trying to stack arrows in a target with all the time in the world, one is allowed to finagle around with exact point placements etc. There are often more variables in hunting shots than most target based shooters want to admit. Many young CP shooters around here talk of how they have difficulties putting close downward shots together at deer and end up taking a non-aimed guessstinct shot. That rarely works, there needs to be some fundamentals ingrained, no matter if one holds or shoots fluidly.
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Target shooting is hard. Takes a lot of consistency and mental toughness to actually score well consistently. If you put the effort in to get good at it, it will make you a better shot. Doesn't mean it should be the only way to practice, but it's not a bad thing.
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Another thing is that personally and I think a lot of us are like this, if we go out and take a shot at 25 to 30 yards we will hit the center or close to the center of the target on our first shot within those 25 to 30 yards without any problem.
Now here's the kicker, none of our shot's are going to be as good as that first shot.
When you take that second shot your body is still recovering from the first one mentally and you are now pressured to shoot just as well as your first shot.
Not to mention we are pressuring ourselves by shooting groups.
If during our first shot we are at 100% and give the shot 100% during the second shot when there's pressure to group well than our second shot might only be a 60% shot since there is mental pressure applied to that shot.
For me personally I shoot the best groups when my mental toughness is the highest and I believe in myself 100%.
If any doubt enters the mind the chances of me missing goes up astronomically.
During the first shot this pressure does not really exist.
This is why I believe one can be a great hunter and not be good at grouping or shooting paper.
I'd have to say that target shooting is at least 90% mental once you have good form and are consistent.
I'd have to say that right now I can hit the center of the target within 30 yards on my first shot without any issue.
However, if I have to shoot a group at those distances it might take me at least an hour to shoot a tight 3 arrow group (softball sized) because I have not made that 30 yard shot my 15 yard chip shot yet.
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When practicing longer shots, i load 12 to 18 arrows in my back quiver, i use two four foot targets with several spots each. I shoot three or four, take a short breather then another three or four. After a while a rhythm kicks in and I stop making a big deal out of it all, the imaginary secondary just happens, the slight hesitation at anchor becomes automatic and the thing becomes routine. I can shoot hundreds of arrows in a fairly short time doing this. Maybe it is completely wrong, but it works for me.
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k butler
Calling people liars on this forum will get you booted off pretty quick. Why don't you contact Barry Wensel and call him a liar directly?
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there is a WORLD of diff'rence 'tween the hunting archer and the target archer. their venues, modes of shot process and execution, mindsets, and shot totals are just not the same.
3D shoots are fine gaming social gatherings that have something in common with bowhunting that's close but no cigar. in fact, all archery games are just that - games. hunting is not a game.
roving afield is still the closest one will come to the act of random bowhunting and the best form of bowhunting practice i can think of.
ymmv. :campfire:
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I like to shoot targets, especially NFAA 300. What I have learned that a deer would be safe if I had to put 60 arrows in the heart/lung area. For me, target rounds are a very different endeavor. I have made shots on game that were very good, but replicating them would be unlikely.
Regardless of what anyone says, making one good clutch situation shot is different than making 60 in a row.
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Terry, I have nothing but the utmost respect for both Barry Wensel and you. I would never call either of you a liar. I have tried to PM you and tried your email. I can't get it to work. Somehow I ended up doubling your post. I tried to review my posts to see where I went over the line. They are gone but I count 5 other folks that disagreed and said they didn't buy it. I am not one to result to name calling but apparently I messed up and crossed a line. I tried to do this personally but failed. I would still appreciate a PM. Thanks Ken
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No worries Ken...lets move on to 2017....
:campfire:
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Happy New Year to all. Ken
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I have two new years resolutions. 1. I want to shoot and eat 4 cottontail rabbits before the end of rabbit season. 2. I want to get at least one person suckered into shooting and hunting with a longbow.
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I don't know what I can add here but I do gap shoot but when I'm shooting at stumps at unknown yardages and game I'm setting that gap "instinctively" ie: I'm not spending a lot of time figuring the yardage but when I throw the bow up I'm setting that tiny relationship between the target and my arrow point as seen at the sight window without much thought and tend to be pretty accurate.
However when I shoot an indoor round I'm using different equipment and have mybow set up so the arrow is point on at 20 yards and then it becomes purely a shooting exercise of the perfect draw, the perfect anchor, the perfect release, the perfect follow through FIVE TIMES IN A ROW. This is totally different than my field shooting and takes unbelievable concentration for me. I'm not as successful as I feel I should be at this.
Maybe others can relate.
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I believe I read that Saxton Pope put Ishi in front of European targets & he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his setup. But somehow, he managed to get his fair share of game. I always fear that I'm the opposite so I shoot often & just hope for the best.
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That's me as well. I can hit a golf ball @ 20yards in the yard but when I shoot on a paper bullseye my groups are like 4-5" @ 20 yards. Really weird but it doesn't bother me to bad. 3D targets I'm dead on. Jut the paper haunts me lol. Lately I have been practicing no fire drills @20yards aiming at a paper target. Has seemed to help out a ton already.
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Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
I believe I read that Saxton Pope put Ishi in front of European targets & he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his setup. But somehow, he managed to get his fair share of game. I always fear that I'm the opposite so I shoot often & just hope for the best.
Pope also wrote that target work with a lighter bow helped their shooting on game.
Tough to know what's the right answer, so I shoot as much as possible. :biglaugh:
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Indoor I shoot with compound archers and the targets are for compound. I have hard time with multiple dots target so I ended up adding my own "dot" on the target to get good results with recurve and instinctive shooting. But I don't see much difference between paper vs 3d IF I am doing what I am suppose to do.