Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: forestdweller on March 25, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
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I shot my first 20 yard NFAA a couple of day's ago and could not shoot worth a crap. I shot around a 180 and the next day shot a 199 and was very frustrated.
I started to switch shooting styles and resorted to trying out snap shooting which only made my score worse.
Today I said screw shooting paper and put out some tennis balls on top of my target and nailed one from 36 paces on my first attempt and was shooting tight groups at 20 paces chasing nocks.
It seems like for me scoring myself and shooting 2D objects like paper makes me shoot like crap and I start flinching and thinking in terms of points yet if I have an object that is small my accuracy increase tremendously and I'm not worried about a score or anything.
I used to think that being able to shoot 60 arrows in a tight group like the NFAA round meant you were not overbowed but this shooting paper for score stuff had made me a believer that the only shot that really counts is your first shot.
What are your thoughts?
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Shooting paper WILL improve your form and consistency IF you apply yourself to it. I just shot in the Oregon State NFAA indoor the other day, shot like crap in my opinion, and broke the state longbow record by over 30 points! Tournament jitters is my only excuse. Before season opens I will be shooting around 1000 arrows a week, both at paper and at 3D targets. Building muscle memory helps in the crunch time of hunting.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
this shooting paper for score stuff had made me a believer that the only shot that really counts is your first shot.
What are your thoughts?
Not if your shooting paper! :D ;)
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I have a tendency to shoot poorly in a score is attached. NFAA 300 is tough. I have been shooting that target face for several years and finally broke 200 just this past January and I had already taken multiple big game animals. The same goes with 3d too. I shoot poorly in the situation. I guess if 199 is a bad indoor score I'll live happily with being a lousy shot that fills tags.
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Originally posted by newhouse114:
Shooting paper WILL improve your form and consistency IF you apply yourself to it. I just shot in the Oregon State NFAA indoor the other day, shot like crap in my opinion, and broke the state longbow record by over 30 points! Tournament jitters is my only excuse. Before season opens I will be shooting around 1000 arrows a week, both at paper and at 3D targets. Building muscle memory helps in the crunch time of hunting.
I believe that for some people shooting tournament paper target archery for surely helps improve their accuracy. For people like myself that are extremely competitive and care about the the final score it can cause things like wanting to change the way that I shoot, becoming frustrated, target panic since I want to hit nothing but 5's, and comparing my scores to others. All of these things are detrimental to someone like me.
Honestly the best way that I have improved is from hitting the smallest targets possible (tennis balls, golf balls, etc etc) from exceedingly further distances, focusing on small aspects of my form, chasing nocks, and stump shooting.
I feel like the known distance aspect shooting like the NFAA 300 is also not much of a help since it is extremely rare for someone to end up with hunting shot's that are the exact same distance (in this case, 20 yards) as being the majority of their hunting shots.
I feel as though someone should come up with an unknown distance one shot round or possibly a round that is shot from set distances but only one arrow is allowed per distance.
I'm also not trying to downgrade the big tournament shooters that string walk or shoot these at a high level but some of these guys take a few seconds to "crawl" their string and hold at full draw for 5 seconds easily which can be very rare in a hunting situation.
That being said I will continue to shoot the round but will not take my scores seriously because I do believe it is helpful endurance wise.
The score tracking and looking at your score can be very disheartening and cause you to lose confidence which is a huge factor in your shooting ability which can effect your accuracy big time.
Just my $0.02.
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I recommend different hats to shoot with. This pertains to shooting expectations, as I have known, reasonable expectations for my indoor rounds, 3d rounds, practice and hunting shots. It may not seem reasonable, but these things are each very different to me and a good shot in one situation means very little in the next.
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The secret of shooting paper well is to shoot it with the same mindset as if you were shooting a tennis ball on a string. No score, no consolation 3's or 4's, you either hit it or you don't. You're happy when you hit it, but you don't beat up on yourself when you don't, because you know it's a hard shot and you don't expect to hit it that often.
The best shooters I know have that mindset when they shoot paper or 3D for scores. They are not trying to hit a bullseye, they are trying to execute the best shot they can each and every time they shoot an arrow. Hitting a bullseye is something that happens in the future, after the arrow leaves the bow, when we no longer have any control over it. Executing the best shot we can is something that happens in the here and now, and can be controlled as it is happening.
I think we all know that. I have had the honor and privilege of shooting with a number of top shooters who are able to have that level of control of their minds. Any of them could look at me shoot, identify my form errors, and tell me what I need to do to correct them. What nobody I'm aware of can do is to tell me how to eliminate extraneous thoughts and focus all of my attention on the execution of my shot. That seems to be something that each of us has to figure out for ourself.
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Paper sucks. It's an honest, unforgiving, no-BS test of consistency. Has nothing to do with the bow, arrows, aiming style, what have you; it's all about how consistent the archer is. It's brutal.
When I first tried paper my expectation was that my score would be above average. Nope. First two weeks I couldn't break 190. It was a very slow crawl from there to 220 over the course of the next year. It was more than two years before reaching 240. I had developed a LOT of bad habits from just trying to emulate the bowhunting greats.
Paid off, though. I can now see the difference between good shots and lucky ones. Made me realize what real accuracy was. Then seeing others excel with different techniques and styles of gear inspired me to up my game even further. I'm still improving, much more slowly now, but it's a lot more fun. My hunting success has exceeded my expectations, too!
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Originally posted by KeganM:
When I first tried paper my expectation was that my score would be above average. Nope. First two weeks I couldn't break 190. It was a very slow crawl from there to 220 over the course of the next year.
Must be rough :biglaugh:
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Like others have said, NFAA 40 CM target shooting is very tough. I, too, have been shooting 300 rounds this winter. It took me a lot of shooting, focusing on form errors to go from 230's to 250's. Some days, I just don't shoot well and the harder I try to correct whatever form errors are causing errant shots, the worse it gets. As Dave said, I try to focus on making a good shot, trusting the process and not the results. As Kegan also pointed out, I now know when I make a strong, good form shot, whether the arrow impacts exactly where I was aiming of not. Conversely, I also now know when I make a less than quality shot, even if the arrow impacts exactly where I was aiming. Sometimes it frustrates me more to see my arrow impact where I was aiming when I know I didn't make a good form shot.
All of this said, some archers just enjoy shooting at tennis balls, chasing nocks, etc. That's fine too. It's all about what brings out the joy of archery to each individual archer. Your comment, Forest, about the only shot that counts is the first one is certainly true in the hunting realm. In the target archery world, the mindset is that the most important shot is the arrow you're shooting, each and every one of them.
IMO, shooting spots develops strong form which translates to good hunting accuracy. The benefits of muscle memory translate to improved hunting accuracy. I recently shot with a very renowned, world class archer. When he shoots, he holds the bow back for a long time, probably six to ten seconds on each and every shot while shooting spots. He is also a very accomplished hunter. When he hunts, his shots on game animals are much quicker than the way he shoots targets. He relies on muscle memory to help him execute a strong, accurate hunting shot, essentially doing everything he does while shooting spot targets-Just doing it quicker on game.
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Originally posted by KeganM:
Paper sucks. It's an honest, unforgiving, no-BS test of consistency. Has nothing to do with the bow, arrows, aiming style, what have you; it's all about how consistent the archer is. It's brutal.
When I first tried paper my expectation was that my score would be above average. Nope. First two weeks I couldn't break 190. It was a very slow crawl from there to 220 over the course of the next year. It was more than two years before reaching 240. I had developed a LOT of bad habits from just trying to emulate the bowhunting greats.
Paid off, though. I can now see the difference between good shots and lucky ones. Made me realize what real accuracy was. Then seeing others excel with different techniques and styles of gear inspired me to up my game even further. I'm still improving, much more slowly now, but it's a lot more fun. My hunting success has exceeded my expectations, too!
That's great that it worked for you but honestly I went out today and was shooting tight groups just chasing nocks but once I put the paper target up I missed my entire target about 3 times out of 5 arrows which is unheard of for me especially at 20 yards.
I can't hold steady and start holding for far too long and end up paying too much attention to my arrow point when shooting paper.
Afterwards I started snap shooting again thinking that I had to change my shooting completely and ended up getting very frustrated before calling it a day.
Before you know it I'll be shooting one of those FITA Olympic rigs and walking the string just to increase my score (which would ruin archery for me since it takes the fun out of it).
I'll just stick to stumping and shooting small targets since the whole competitive mindset of keeping score and shooting for 5's ruins my accuracy. I start worrying about score, I start flinching, holding for far too long, and over analyzing everything which is counter productive.
I do believe that it helps others with their shooting but it definitely isn't doing anything for me.
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Forest,
Do what makes you happy, brother. That's all that matters. Last year, I kept score at local 3-D's most all year long. I shot some good scores and some not so good scores. In the end, it seemed like all that mattered to me was the final score. On the days that I didn't keep score, including the 3-D I shot yesterday, I had way more fun. This summer, I may try not to keep score and just enjoy archery for what it is. Pure, simple in equipment and, most importantly, FUN!
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For me, it's not the paper that's the problem - it's shooting in a line elbow to elbow with 16 other archers. The background chatter of the spectators, the constant smack of arrows hitting the butts and the noise of compounds discharging (it's a mixed league) all conspire to utterly ruin my concentration, make me freak and try to release quickly before the guy beside me fires his next shot. Then there's the night when there's a lefty beside you, face to face, 12" apart with a tricked out compound with a two foot stabilizer and you're trying to cant your bow... Sorry for the rant.
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I kind of enjoy keeping score, but I also enjoy shooting just for fun. What I don't enjoy is shooting in a line of people who are way too close together for my comfort, like Paul mentions above. I tried an indoor league once. The first thing that happened was that a range official came over to tell me that I was impinging on the person's space next to me when I loaded my arrows, so I had to quickly learn to hold my bow vertical when I was nocking an arrow. I lasted that night and the next session, but then I dropped out: it was just too stressful for me.
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Originally posted by McDave:
I kind of enjoy keeping score, but I also enjoy shooting just for fun. What I don't enjoy is shooting in a line of people who are way too close together for my comfort, like Paul mentions above. I tried an indoor league once. The first thing that happened was that a range official came over to tell me that I was impinging on the person's space next to me when I loaded my arrows, so I had to quickly learn to hold my bow vertical when I was nocking an arrow. I lasted that night and the next session, but then I dropped out: it was just too stressful for me.
Oh wow, that's screwed up that you have to hold your bow vertical. Some bow's (namely longbows such as mines) are not even cut to center and if shot from a straight vertical position will shoot slightly to the right of where the point is pointing to.
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Interesting comments all, I myself get bored, with shooting regulation paper targets, I'd much rather stump shoot or throw plastic bottles or different size objects around and shoot at them. Whatever makes you happy. How many have shot the interactive game, where you use the special tips to shoot at a special screen at moving animals in realistic hunting situations,I usually do that a few times before Deer and turkey season, I enjoy it and it also keeps score on your hits and misses.Luckily a shop not to far from me has the game.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
That's great that it worked for you but honestly I went out today and was shooting tight groups just chasing nocks but once I put the paper target up I missed my entire target about 3 times out of 5 arrows which is unheard of for me especially at 20 yards.
I can't hold steady and start holding for far too long and end up paying too much attention to my arrow point when shooting paper.
Afterwards I started snap shooting again thinking that I had to change my shooting completely and ended up getting very frustrated before calling it a day.
Before you know it I'll be shooting one of those FITA Olympic rigs and walking the string just to increase my score (which would ruin archery for me since it takes the fun out of it).
I'll just stick to stumping and shooting small targets since the whole competitive mindset of keeping score and shooting for 5's ruins my accuracy. I start worrying about score, I start flinching, holding for far too long, and over analyzing everything which is counter productive.
I do believe that it helps others with their shooting but it definitely isn't doing anything for me.
It worked out eventually but I had to work on it. It's tough. I'd been shooting for five or six years before I tried paper and it was another few years before I got decent at it. My scores are still nothing special... and that's just in my yard! 90% of my practice is stumping/yard shooting. Maybe 1% is paper.
From the sounds of it the last thing you should do is change your gear. That won't help your score if the paper is giving you anxiety. Try shooting without keeping score at first, just focusing on making the same shot as you would on any other target. Just imagine the 5 ring as a tennis ball. I mean, let's be honest- if you're missing the target then it's probably not your shooting, but rather the mental game. The paper is stressing you out, and learning to overcome stress is a big help when hunting (I know my heart gets pounding pretty hard when a whitetail starts getting close).
Keep after it. As they say, nothing worth doing is easy!
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As I've said before, it's an archery game, an acquired taste, not hunting or stumping practice. Totally different mindset. It takes practice and discipline to shoot close to someone else. I have to admit I've never shot to the left of a lefty. Sometimes you can put yourself at the extreme right end of the line to minimize uneasiness. I will say the more you do it the more comfortable you'll become.
You have approx. 24" to the next guy's back so you must learn to load your bow fairly vertical so you don't poke him in the back. You can cant the bow when you shoot as long as it's not severe. You just can't encroach on another's space.
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I am terrible at paper shooting. Unfortunately, the only target I have I share with my dad and brother, both compound shooters, and it is covered with dots. I can't shoot at it worth a darn, and I'm just as, if not more likely to hit a dot on the other side of the target than the one that I'm aiming at. Shooting 3D animals is much easier, and stumps even easier. Paper and dots just confuse me and get in my head. I don't know why. It's always another weapon in my dads arsenal of arguments against trad bows when he watches me try and hit a paper dot, but I keep shooting anyways.
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Originally posted by Trenton G.:
I am terrible at paper shooting. Unfortunately, the only target I have I share with my dad and brother, both compound shooters, and it is covered with dots. I can't shoot at it worth a darn, and I'm just as, if not more likely to hit a dot on the other side of the target than the one that I'm aiming at. Shooting 3D animals is much easier, and stumps even easier. Paper and dots just confuse me and get in my head. I don't know why. It's always another weapon in my dads arsenal of arguments against trad bows when he watches me try and hit a paper dot, but I keep shooting anyways.
I think the problem is that when we shoot paper we are trying to shoot a 2D object which is terrible if you are shooting instinctive.
There are day's when I can chase nocks no problem and shoot fist sized groups from 30 yards.
Nocks are a dot as well but they are 3 dimensional which means they have contrast with their background.
I can shoot tennis balls, soccer balls, and pick out spots on stumps without issue. These things are all 3 Dimensional with plenty of contrast though so it's easy to "lock on" to them and differentiate them from everything else and make a good accurate shot.
I noticed yesterday that the main issue is that there is nothing to "lock" onto since it's just a 4 inch by 4 inch piece of flat paper with no contrast or anything sticking out of.
When you hunt animals they have plenty of things on them that pop out such as their hair, specific parts of their body, and the whole animal itself.
It actually reminds me of photography in that sense that if you took a camera and tried to lock onto focus with something that is flat and 2 Dimensional like a wall it's very hard to acquire focus most of the time and a lot of your shots will end up out of focus. Now if you go to focus on a tennis ball or a piece of bark on a stump or anything 3 Dimensional it will acquire focus right away.
Since our eyes operate very closely to that of a camera lens I think that's the reason why shooting paper is so much more difficult for the instinctive shooter that does not consciously aim using their arrow point. When we see an object that is 3 Dimensional which will naturally have lots of contrast we can lock onto it without any effort.
When shooting a piece of paper I just see blue and white and there's no specific point that's popping out so in essence most of us instinctive archers are more than likely focusing on just the flat colors themselves since we do not rely on our arrow point as a reference which leads to terrible paper accuracy and we have nothing to lock onto besides two colors.
I'm shooting a spot target at the moment (only 4's and 5's) and shooting 3 arrow groups so I'm not really shooting the true NFAA so to be fair I don't know how I'd do with the full size target with white in the middle and more blue in the 3, 2, and 1 ring but I doubt it would be much better than 200 at best due to the reasons that I mentioned.
I'm done with the snap shooting crap though I'm going to do some long distance shooting and focus on my form. Every time I shoot paper now I start tinkering and change something and resort to shooting this Howard Hill snap shooting style which for me does not work beyond 15 yards and is an inferior way to shoot in my opinion.
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Forest,I felt the same way when I started paper and had many of the same problems: flinching, changing my tempo, changing my style, looking to alter my gear for better scores, etc. None of it helped. I would put one in the 5 and then miss the whole target on the next one.
It's entirely mental. There are bowhunters who can shoot 260+ instinctively using their hunting rigs. I've shot one of my highest scores ever instinctively, a 262 with a longbow. It can be done! It's not easy, and of course you don't have to do it, but it's certainly possible if you work for it.
Has nothing to do with two or three dimensional targets or aiming styles. Just the gray stuff upstairs. You'll get there, just try to relax and shoot every arrow like you're shooting a tennis ball!
I'm nothing special and if I can do this anyone can!
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I seem to be stuck on a 256 as a high score on the NFAA face. I've shot that with 4 different bows. I usually shoot in the mid 240's (until you throw me into a densly packed tournament) with my hunting rig, 65 lb whip and 835 gr doug fir arrows. I still throw arrow occasionally. Like yesterday, 2 fives, 2 fours, and one arrow completely off the paper! Ended up with a 244 for the round. It is not a matter of "trying" to change things while shooting, but trying to figure out what you did differntly when an arrow goes haywire.
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Originally posted by KeganM:
Forest,I felt the same way when I started paper and had many of the same problems: flinching, changing my tempo, changing my style, looking to alter my gear for better scores, etc. None of it helped. I would put one in the 5 and then miss the whole target on the next one.
It's entirely mental. There are bowhunters who can shoot 260+ instinctively using their hunting rigs. I've shot one of my highest scores ever instinctively, a 262 with a longbow. It can be done! It's not easy, and of course you don't have to do it, but it's certainly possible if you work for it.
Has nothing to do with two or three dimensional targets or aiming styles. Just the gray stuff upstairs. You'll get there, just try to relax and shoot every arrow like you're shooting a tennis ball!
I'm nothing special and if I can do this anyone can!
Hey Kegan thanks for the suggestions and encouragement brother! I'm going to wait until I get a new target in and am going to order some full sized NFAA 300 targets that have the 3 ring, 2 ring, and 1 ring as well with a darker blue contrast.
The one that I was shooting was a lousy print out that only had the 4 or 5 ring (a 5 spot) and each time I missed it, it would cause me to get discouraged.
I feel like if I shot the full target face with 5 arrows per end instead of 3 my score will go up by that alone.
I did some shooting today before my allergies got too bad and felt deadly out to 40 paces just focusing on my form.
Hopefully when the weather breaks for good over spring and by the time I get a new target and proper NFAA 300 faces I can work on getting that score up.
Originally posted by newhouse114:
I seem to be stuck on a 256 as a high score on the NFAA face. I've shot that with 4 different bows. I usually shoot in the mid 240's (until you throw me into a densly packed tournament) with my hunting rig, 65 lb whip and 835 gr doug fir arrows. I still throw arrow occasionally. Like yesterday, 2 fives, 2 fours, and one arrow completely off the paper! Ended up with a 244 for the round. It is not a matter of "trying" to change things while shooting, but trying to figure out what you did differntly when an arrow goes haywire.
Shooting 240's with a bow that heavy is VERY impressive. That's some damn good shooting!
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The single spot is a lot easier on traditional shooters. Not only does it give you more room to "map" your patterns, but it also lets your mind find the sight picture faster.
Another thing that helped me was working my way back. I would shoot half-rounds at 10 until I could shoot at least 120 points, then I'd shoot from 13 yards the next time. Stay there until I hit 120 and continue.
Keep after it; it's only a matter of time before you're destroying the 5 ring!
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Howard hill snap shooting inferior . .! Mr. Hill did not snap shoot he shot fast with a definite anchor . And was one hell of a shot . He said .boys make up your mind whither you what to shoot targets or hunt because the two don't mix
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Howard hill snap shooting inferior . .! Mr. Hill did not snap shoot he shot fast with a definite anchor . And was one hell of a shot . He said .boys make up your mind whither you what to shoot targets or hunt because the two don't mix
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Originally posted by Dan bree:
Howard hill snap shooting inferior . .! Mr. Hill did not snap shoot he shot fast with a definite anchor . And was one hell of a shot . He said .boys make up your mind whither you what to shoot targets or hunt because the two don't mix
You're right about HH being a fast but "controlled" shooter.
He was wrong about target shooters. There's way too many successful hunters that also shoot targets. Times and shooters have changed. IMO, I doubt he could hold a light on the 3D range with some of the shooters of today.
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Originally posted by Dan bree:
Howard hill snap shooting inferior . .! Mr. Hill did not snap shoot he shot fast with a definite anchor . And was one hell of a shot . He said .boys make up your mind whither you what to shoot targets or hunt because the two don't mix
I don't know of anyone that "snap shoots". It's a misnomer. I prefer to call it fluid shooting in which there is no pause at full anchor which is the way Hill shot most of the time in the videos that I have seen if him shoot. His shooting style was rhythemic and relaxed and had a lot of style and flair due to that.
He was contradicting himself if he said that because he was very very successful in target shooting and hunting.
Originally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
Originally posted by Dan bree:
Howard hill snap shooting inferior . .! Mr. Hill did not snap shoot he shot fast with a definite anchor . And was one hell of a shot . He said .boys make up your mind whither you what to shoot targets or hunt because the two don't mix
You're right about HH being a fast but "controlled" shooter.
He was wrong about target shooters. There's way too many successful hunters that also shoot targets. Times and shooters have changed. IMO, I doubt he could hold a light on the 3D range with some of the shooters of today. [/b]
You can't compare Howard Hill to today's ILF Olmypic FITA barebow setups with cut past center arrow shelves, carbon arrows, and glass and carbon laminated limbs paired with fast flight strings.
It's like comparing someone using a set of wooden golf clubs from the 50's to someone using modern graphite clubs and modern golf balls designed with high tech engineering.
Howard Hill used bows made out of natural materials for most of his shooting career meaning self bows and bamboo backed bows. He also used wooden arrows and did not shoot using an arrow shelf, he shot off the hand using linen bow strings.
He would be competing in the "primitive" class now a day's and I have no doubts in my mind that he'd smoke the competition.
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The shot is the shot. What's different is only what is happening between your ears. Unfortunately, that's the most important part. I think a lot of folks also go down to sub 40# rigs to help with the physical demands.
I don't shoot indoor competitions. The couple times a year I do 3D, I don't bother to keep score. My boys are with me and it's about having fun. Keeping score focuses me on the score, not having a good time. I start comparing myself to others better or worse than me instead of just chatting with fellow archers who enjoy the sport. Others love the competition & that's good for them. I may decide to try to up my game one of these years. But for now, I prefer to keep it light. Also, I have a self-imposed 20-yard limit for hunting but most 3D around here averages about 25-30 yards. I "goof off" at 3D matches by imposing rules on myself like "no standing shots on turkeys" to replicate hunting better. It doesn't help my score any but, again, it isn't the point for me.
To your credit, Ishi reportedly couldn't hit a bullseye target worth anything yet lived in great part from his skill with a bow. There's no law that says that you have to master paper to be a good shot in the field. But it doesn't hurt.
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...You can't compare Howard Hill to today's ILF Olmypic FITA barebow setups with cut past center arrow shelves, carbon arrows, and glass and carbon laminated limbs paired with fast flight strings...
You're right... and I didn't. I have no doubt the shooters of today, shooting his style of bow would hand him his hat, save for his "trick" shooting--maybe.
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Originally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
...You can't compare Howard Hill to today's ILF Olmypic FITA barebow setups with cut past center arrow shelves, carbon arrows, and glass and carbon laminated limbs paired with fast flight strings...
You're right... and I didn't. I have no doubt the shooters of today, shooting his style of bow would hand him his hat, save for his "trick" shooting--maybe. [/b]
No way, on an unmarked distance course Howard would smoke em. Even today the guys shooting instinctive keep up with the string walkers on the 1 shot unknown distance courses.
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Forest,
I'm not commenting on the discussion of "who would win? Howard Hill or ...." however, go to any national archery event and watch the archers. The best shooters are not "instinctive" archers. They're string walkers, gappers, feels right gaps...etal.
If you want to discuss one shot accuracy, let's look at IBO Trad Worlds. Who are the top instinctive archers? I'm not saying a truly instinctive archer can't be on the top podium or they aren't the best archer out there. It just takes a special person with special skills.
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forestdweller,
You probably missed that Howard Hill was a gap shooter, huh? :)
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Originally posted by longbow fanatic 1:
Forest,
I'm not commenting on the discussion of "who would win? Howard Hill or ...." however, go to any national archery event and watch the archers. The best shooters are not "instinctive" archers. They're string walkers, gappers, feels right gaps...etal.
If you want to discuss one shot accuracy, let's look at IBO Trad Worlds. Who are the top instinctive archers? I'm not saying a truly instinctive archer can't be on the top podium or they aren't the best archer out there. It just takes a special person with special skills.
I think the reason why there is not many instinctive archers at the top podium because either the best guys are not showing up to the event anymore (like Rick Welch of whom dominated when he competed and he shoots instinctive) or people do not put in the time to get good shooting instinctive.
But guys like Rick have beaten GAPers and string walkers in competition.
Originally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
forestdweller,
You probably missed that Howard Hill was a gap shooter, huh? :)
Howard Hill did not shoot GAP he shot split vision which is a form of subconscious shooting and for all purposes is the same as instinctive.
Howard Hill had no time to GAP shoot since he did not have time to set up the gap. In all of hos videos he draws continuously and never pauses at anchor to set the GAP.
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Actually, any time you note the relationship of your arrow to the mark, you're gap shooting--no matter how fast or slow you do it.
Split vision is focusing on the mark while noting the arrow in relationship to it. A gap shooter by any other name is still a gap shooter.
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Originally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
Actually, any time you note the relationship of your arrow to the mark, you're gap shooting--no matter how fast or slow you do it.
Split vision is focusing on the mark while noting the arrow in relationship to it. A gap shooter by any other name is still a gap shooter.
It's kind of a subtle difference. Howard Hill, in his book Hunting the Hard Way stated that he was not an instinctive shooter, because he used a reference: the point of his arrow. He went on to say that this reference was very important to him because it allowed him to make corrections in elevation for subsequent shots that would have been impossible using an instinctive method. As we all know, he called his method split vision, not gap.
Gap and point of aim were in use at the time, and were available methods for him to use. He consciously chose not to use them because of the reason previously stated by Forestdweller: he primarily wanted a method to use hunting, and felt that the calculations required to use the gap method would slow down his shooting too much, while providing little benefit because he was shooting at unknown distances. I have enough respect for Howard Hill to think that he would not create his own name for an aiming system that already had a name, so rather than call his system gap or instinctive, I call it split vision, a system sufficiently different from both to deserve its own name.
I have had many discussions with Rick Welch, and consider him to be a friend and mentor. He calls his system instinctive, but I can find no significant differences between his system and split vision. Rick uses his sight picture as a reference, which includes not only his arrow tip, but whatever other parts of his sight window are visible in his peripheral vision. Because he does not use a gap system, his shots are not quite as repeatable as they might be for someone who makes a conscious calculation of the gap, thus he generally limits himself to competitions where only one shot is taken from each shooting position. He is certainly capable of shooting groups in a casual setting, and I have seen him do it, but prefers not to compete under those conditions. For Rick, each shot is truly unique in his mind, influenced as little as possible by any memory of the previous shot taken. He purposely avoids cognitive thoughts while he is in the process of shooting an arrow. He looks at the target while being physically aware of what his body is doing as he draws and shoots the bow, all without consciously thinking in words. Shooting for him is an experience, not the result of a calculation, which is why he calls it instinctive.
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McDave, has Rick Welch ever mentioned he mentally calculates the yardage before he shoots? I've never heard anyone mention this before.
There seems to be two schools of shooters out there and my little group has both. One groups mentally calculates the yardage and aims accordingly and the other doesn't care what the yardage is.
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Originally posted by reddogge:
McDave, has Rick Welch ever mentioned he mentally calculates the yardage before he shoots? I've never heard anyone mention this before.
There seems to be two schools of shooters out there and my little group has both. One groups mentally calculates the yardage and aims accordingly and the other doesn't care what the yardage is.
His motto, which is prominently repeated on just about everything he produces, is "How far was it? Don't know; don't care." So I guess he doesn't!
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When I shot instinctive I cant shot paper that great.
When I gap I can
I think the 2 diff methods require diff practice.
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We all need to find what works best for us. Comparing ourselves to others is tricky when successful archers come in so many varieties. Jason Westbrock recently wrote a great article about that in a recent TBM.
There are too many archers throughout the world, past and present, who have been able to do well on a variety of targets (paper, straw, dirt, or flesh) to say that one discipline is separate from another. The only differences are made up in our heads. We overthink too much.
It also helps to have realistic goals. Obviously a selfbow won't be as easy as a sighted ILF, but the skill of the archer should be able to get the most out of any weapon they choose.
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I know this is off topic a little but since Kegan brought up selfbows I'd really like to see a selfbow NFAA and Vegas round that is shot off the hand using selfbows and wooden arrows.
It seems like it would be very fun to compete in and watch, yet still competitive enough to foster together competitive scores and competition.
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I don't remember which one he shoots the full round, but here's one of Jimmy Blackmon explaining a bit about his selfbow (he shoots paper, foam, and deer with it at 40# or so).
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Forgot the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz4GPxPPqe8
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That's impressive shooting, as it always is with Jimmy Blackmon. I think it would be great to have a Las Vegas round with selfbows, if you could get enough people to participate. I've never been there, but one of my friends went a few years back. At that time, maybe still, there was no trad division at all. He had to shoot against people using Olympic style bows with all the gadgets.
I think participation and sponsor interest is really the problem. It costs money to rent the space, set up the targets, keep the scores, etc. If sponsors don't feel like they will get much mileage out of it, then they won't spend their money on it. Sort of like men's vs women's sports. Not fair, but that's life.
I went to a tournament two weeks ago in a beautiful location that was lightly attended because the original date had been rained out. Probably not everyone got the word on the new date or else had already made other plans. Felt sorry for the club that sponsored the event, but it was great for the shooters. Ordinarily, by the middle of the tournament, shooters would have been backed up 2-3 groups at each target, which makes for quite a bit of time wasted. We never waited at any target all day. There was only one other trad shooter there, who I hadn't met before, and we ended up shooting with a family of compound shooters. Had a great time.
They had a clout shoot, a big elk at an unknown distance of about 90 yards or so. The compounders all bought tickets and mainly all hit the elk with most of their shots. The other trad guy and I agreed that it was too bad they didn't have a trad clout at a little closer distance. Then we both realized at the same time that for the trouble of setting up another animal and keeping track of who was closest to the pin, they would have collected an extra $2-$4, depending on whether we decided to shoot one or two rounds, which they would have split with us! Hardly worth the trouble for them to do it.
Of course, if someone like Jimmy Blackmon did go to Las Vegas and won the bare bow division with a trad bow, that would make the news and I'm sure the sponsors would be happy. But that would be unlikely, even for Jimmy. I understand that it is rare for any of the top competitors to miss the 20 yard bullseye, and as good as Jimmy is, as demonstrated with his skill with the self bow, I'm not sure he is up to shooting 30 bullseyes into a silver dollar sized bullseye in a row, even with his regular trad bow.
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Originally posted by forestdweller:
It seems like it would be very fun to compete in and watch, yet still competitive enough to foster together competitive scores and competition.
That's where classes come in to formal competitions. Selfbows guys don't have to compete against sighted ILF guys because the scores will be so different. Get a bunch of guys shooting the same bow though and you have some good-natured competition, though.
Competing is only a bad thing if you make it into something bad.
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I agree Kegan especially about your last point in regards to competing.
Maybe someone could create a "hunter" round in which the time limit is cut down significantly so that one can not get away with holding 5+ seconds during each shot.
It would be interesting for sure!
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Folks used to do that a lot. Added another degree of challenge to it to keep things interesting. However I don't know of many shooting single string who hold that long. It may take a different skill set to shoot quickly but it takes a lot of muscular endurance to hold for long periods on every shot.
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I know John Demmer and other guys that are shooting high barebow scores typically hold between 4-6 seconds at full draw.
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I've shot with Demmer and he does hold a little longer than most, but he's mentioned he only holds as long as he needs to. Even Rick Welch teaches his students to hold and many say it helps.
Holding is just what some of us need to do to be accurate. If anything, holding is harder. It tires you out and having to do it on every shot is a pain. It's slower, obviously. But I've killed way more critters holding than I ever did snapping. In the woods you just do what you need to to make a good, clean, ethical shot.
I think if most of us holders COULD shoot well quickly, we would. I know I would!