Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: KSdan on August 15, 2017, 08:39:00 PM
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So- I have been shooting trad for 35 years. Always been an athlete. Fundamentals and practice are a part of my life. I posted here on TG for many years. I have spoke to many guys here and beyond. . . Often even about shooting. I like Jay Kidwell's philosophy, spoke to Joel Turner a few times a few years back, spoke to Ken Beck, had 3-6 mos interaction with Arne Moe. . . and many others.
Here are my major observations and key question about the psychotrigger and shooting ideas. . .
OBSERVATIONS:
1) I see a newer trend in "my" exposure to trad hunting. That is: guys going to lighter poundage and learning to hold the anchor and more recent talk of "pyschotrigger" as developed by Joel, Rick Welch, and others.
2) Over the years I have observed many guys change something in their shooting- like going to left hand from right hand, learning to use a clicker, using to use a feather, lowering poundage, etc etc. In many of these cases the "change" also is reported as the final solution to their TP and accuracy.
3) Though most often unreported except by a few (like oldrubline here on TG), after a shift into a new style, tremendous practice, training, etc etc. they find a new control that INITIALLY seems to be the remedy. The "change" worked. HOWEVER- (and I have seen this for many years with MANY friends) in the moment of hunting (or even some competition shoot, 3D etc) they find themselves often falling BACK into some sort of "instinctive" shoot quickly style- almost automatically. (My story too BTW)
4) I have also posted here on TG about the entire style proposed by John Schulz ("Hitting 'Em like Howard Hill). John says that we need to decide- targets or hunting. The two do not mix. He further states that when shooting at animals, we would do better to learn to shoot "quicker". . . NOT anchor and static.
MY QUESTION: (for "Pyschotrigger Aficionadas!" :) )
So- why can't the finger touching the corner of the mouth (choose your anchor even with secondary)like Schulz advocates actually BE THE PYSCHOTRIGGER?? In other words- rather than fighting this entire thing; i.e. holding, new pyschotrigger, needing to lower poundage, etc. (which I suspect Jay Kidwell would suggest will eventually create the same results again due to our brain wiring and anticipatory procedure (pavlov's dog).) Why not learn to shoot with a fluid motion, allowing your subconscious to release with hitting anchor as pyschotrigger?
I realize some will call this "snap" shooting. But I still can't see where a quick release and the corner of the mouth being the "pyschotrigger" is a complication. Further, I am not convinced that THIS IS what causes TP as much as what Jay Kidwell advocates which can occur with any method.
Your thoughts????
Thanks
Dan in KS
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Pulling to the corner of your mouth is not a "non-anticipatory" trigger. You can anticipate when you will touch the corner of your mouth unlike a clicker that is hard to anticipate. A clicker is the only trigger I have used that I can't anticipate.
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Thanks Matt. Here is my thought/conflict about your insight. . . It seems to me what begins as "non-anticipatory" will become "anticipatory" as long as you are in control and you repeat the process over and over (You don't have an outside source "coach" talking over your shoulder).
This is Kidwell's Sports Psych point. Your brain naturally learns these anticipatory processes (it happens in all sports. Its a completely natural way the brain works). Think Pavlov's dog. At first there is no response. But eventually it becomes learned. As my observation #3 suggests- I have watched dozens of friends over the years change a style or equipment and in short order claim release from TP. However- in time, their mind relearns the same process and the once "non-anticipatory" again becomes "anticipatory." I have literally watched friends repeat this learning process over and over every few years with new methods, new equipment etc.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for interacting. . . Keep it coming.
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Any trigger can be anticipated, including the trigger of a rifle and a clicker. Give a steady pull on either one and you know when it's going to go off. There is no reason finger to corner of mouth couldn't be a non-anticipatory psycho-trigger, if you pulled in such a way that it was uncertain when your finger would touch the corner of your mouth. It is very similar to feather to nose, one of Joel's psychotriggers. Feather to nose can be anticipatory or non-anticipatory, depending on how one pulls. The benefit of a non-anticipatory psycho-trigger is that it avoids preignition reactions, like flinching when you pull the trigger of a gun. They say that flinching is unavoidable, but through proper shot control, you can delay the flinch until after the bullet leaves the barrel.
I'd like to clarify one comment Dan made. Rick Welch is not a proponent of non-anticipatory psycho-triggers. He uses feather to nose as an anchor, not a trigger. Under Joel's method, the shot is released as soon as the shooter feels the feather touch the nose; under Rick's method, the feather touches the nose continuously during the approx 2 second hold. Rick's trigger is subconscious: he holds until "the shot goes off."
My own view of traditional archery is the same as my view of religion: there are many paths to salvation. Men have been shooting bows for at least 20,000 years, maybe 50,000 years. During all but a tiny fraction of that time, they had no idea of what target panic was, they didn't worry about preignition reactions, but they still managed to feed their families. I think target panic is a modern invention that is connected with the stress and complexity of modern life. That doesn't mean it isn't real, and maybe being a modern invention, it needs a modern cure.
Personally, I find that the Rick Welch subconscious release works better than a psychotrigger. But I studied Joel's method in depth, and learned a lot about the human mind. I'm sure his method works better for many people (or, as Joel would say, people work better for it) than a subconscious release, and I recommend it to anyone who is interested in trying it.
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Somehow I just knew Dave would jump in here. . . . :)
Thanks for the insights Dave- The clarification on Rick and Joel is helpful. After a variety of method tries I would say I am closer to Rick's style then (though not even close in his league!!). The entire time I "see" my imaginary "orange dot" while I think about the drawing and pausing at anchor for 1-2 (like 1.5 seconds in reality) I do not really think about "sight picture" per se. . all while the release is subconscious. I gave up trying to actually hold as it did not work for me on animals and it seems much harder on my shoulder (I assume that is why guys drop down in weight for these static styles).
As a side note: I professionally travel/teach nationally and Internationally on theology/philosophy. I can assure you all world-views are mutually exclusive. For another conversation in another place. . . :)
Thanks
Dan in KS
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Not to hijack the thread here, but it would be interesting to see how many here on trad gang shoot with a psychotrigger and how many shoot without? I have been trying different triggers for years and am currently considering trying this season without any non anticipatory triggers.
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You should probably talk to Joel. Seems to be some misunderstanding of method. He can explain the mental mechanics behind TP extremely well and why using your finger in the corner of the mouth cannot be a non-anticipatory psycho trigger. The trigger is just a small part of the system and on its own doesn't amount to much.
I've been using Joel's method for several years now. I had every form of TP you can think of, from snap shooting, to freezing, to "drive by" releasing, you name it. Went from one type of TP to another, and as you said each new one worked... for a while. TP would creep back in though. After my worst case of TP I finally tried Joel's method from MBB vol. 4. Unlike the other methods, I could easily find the bugs in a bad shot. There was no mystery to missing anymore and I stopped having the "good day/bad day" swings for no reason.
Made plenty of mistakes along the way of course, including losing it at first when a deer showed up like you mentioned. That's the trouble with TP, it gets you under pressure. The problem wasn't the system though, it was me. I just wasn't making good shots. Years without a shot sequence were catching up to me. Nothing is a magic band aid; you have to work for it. Breaking a bad habit that's deeply ingrained isn't easy.
I don't put much stock in the "hunting vs. target" stuff either. A strong shooter can shoot well on both, and I've had the good fortune of shooting with enough great shooters that do so. Field shooting and 3d were designed for hunters, by hunters. Hill himself won almost two hundred field tournaments. That says a lot.
Plenty of ways to skin a cat and plenty of ways to shoot an arrow. Only way to really find out what works is to pay attention to one's own results and go from there. Something will either work for you, or it won't. The center of a stump, a paper face, and a buck's hair are all the same. A spot is a spot. For me, Joel's method is hands down the best thing I have done for my shooting, followed closely by dropping down in draw weight. As long as it keeps working for me I'll keep doing it!
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I have shot compounds all my life and for me the clicker relates to squeezing a trigger on a release. On a release I focus on slowly squeezing the trigger until it goes off. With the clicker I focus on slowly pulling. That's the only way I can shoot a recurve without TP and I have tried every method I could find.
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Great thoughts/input guys. . .
I have been off from shooting for 4 months due to a shoulder surgery. With the break I decided to revisit my shooting and reconsider all options. Thus the timing for this thread/post. . . Currently I am back on though with my full 55# @ 31" bow. Things are progressing well. .. .
I agree Kegan. . .I have only talked to Joel a few times and have NOT taken his seminars or personal training so I am SURE I do NOT know all he is seeking to communicate. But sounds like it has really worked for you. You got me thinking. . .
Matt- I used a clicker for years (and reconsider it as of late here). In time though I found the same mental anticipatory issue arising most profoundly in the heat of the moment on game. I would shoot without even noticing the clicker. Further, seeking to talk through a relaxed mantra in those split seconds on a moving 150" deer coming through the brush just did not work for me. There is just no way to simulate this in practice in my backyard! This is where the philosophy of John Schulz seemed to be more useful and realistic to me.
I do wonder if Joel's "brain discussion" is in the realm of study like Dr. Jay Kidwell- who is a Sports Psychologist ( I have a friend w a Phd in this field also who works with pro athletes and contracted with the PGA). Jay has 100% cure rate on TP for the Olympic archers he has worked with. I also have pro/collegiate athlete friends who use these mental training insights.
I will keep reading here. I REALLY appreciate the thoughts and discussion guys.
Dan in KS
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Dan, even with a compound when the pressure of a bull elk at 15 yards I have to talk myself through my shot, telling myself to "slowly squeeze." I see people all the time that jerk the trigger of a mechanical release like a snake striking. I can't even stand to watch it. The same with the clicker, you have to talk yourself through the shot and make yourself focus on the pulling and not the clicker going off. All Olympic archers shoot with clickers so that must mean something.
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Good thoughts Matt. Thanks. As I said I have been rethinking trying a clicker again. . . so you have me thinking. Only wish I could have THAT experience with a Bull Elk! Wowsa!! Very cool.
I am going to keep working on this. I even watched the training vids of the Olympic coaches posted on the Powwow. What I found fascinating there was they were teaching some fundamentals quite different from what we typically teach in the trad archery world; like the core posture for Olympians is to flatten the back and drop the chest- almost a slouch look. This is contrary to any of the trad instruction I have watched over the years that called for an "expansion" of the chest. They also teach a draw that stops short of the anchor- then transfers into the anchor and a hold. . .
At least for a few weeks as I continue to regain my shoulder and strength I am going to focus on Kidwell's mental regime, while using Arne Moe's rotational draw technique, and trying to allow my anchor to be a "trigger" as Schulz would suggest.
(In re-reading the above paragraph I almost sound kind of schizoid spaaz. . . Oh well. :rolleyes: )
Any more thoughts out there, I sure appreciate you taking the time.
Dan in KS
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Don't know much about Psycho triggers. I don't use one. I do come to a 3 point anchor, aim, commit to the shot.....THEN begin my expansion to conclusion, the release happens between those last 2 steps. Pretty happy with my form and process so I never wanted to change it to much.
Now if I start to develop problems then I would certainly try to implement it if I thought it would help.
I think if releasing as soon as your finger hits the corner of your mouth and you are happy with your shooting, then do that. Doesn't much matter what anyone else thinks. I spend a total of zero minutes worrying about what people think about how I shoot, or how others shoot.
Now, I must show my ignorance, I think John Schulz is a bowyer, if I am thinking of the right guy he was a Hill protege. So for him to say that you must choose target or hunting as they don't mix seems crazy to me, as his mentor (if I am thinking of the right guy) won a few hundred major tournaments, while simultaneously killing hundreds of game animals.
Every guy I know that competes in 3Ds and our winter spot shoots are doing it to become better shots at game. While I am sure there are some people that compete just for the enjoyment of competing, I don't personally know any. That one observation just didn't make any sense to me............but I've never been mistaken for a rocket scientist either,miso I may be understanding it wrong.
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John. Watch "Hitting Em like Howard Hill" by Schulz. YES. He is the definitive voice today on Hill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4kIpsoi6oY Look at 9:15.
Schulz: "I believe the most important words that Howard ever said to my brother Dan and me was, 'Boys, make up you minds want you want to do, hunt or shoot targets. Because the two just don't go together!'"
Watch the entire 1 hour series. There is a LOT of tremendous shooting philosophy there that is even contrary to much of the current discussion you see on archery websites. It is interesting for sure. . .
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I'll check it out now. Thanks, love learning about different perspectives of this awesome sport. Even the ones I don't fully agree with I can always find some little nugget to apply!
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Another Schulz quote:
"Static style won't get it . . . it amuses me so many bowhunters extend the arm and draw the bow back. That's tournament style. And I personally don't believe tournament style fits in the woods. . . You may make some hits under ideal conditions. . . those ideal conditions are few and far between. . . . most traditional bow hunters shoot lower scores on paper, but have a higher bowhunting success."
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Absolutely John. There is TONS of room for discussion/disagreement. Of the many years I have been on TG, my experience is that for the most part there has been a fair nature of discussion. I am always trying to learn and appreciate the various views and experiences. Thus the reason I even posted this thread. . . Enjoy Schulz's instruction. It is full of good stuff. . .
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Dan, I had the good fortune to meet and shoot with Joel a few times at ETAR. He's a great guy and a seriously passionate hunter. He's a professional police/SWAT shooting instructor I believe so he has lots of experience coaching shooters (guns or bows) under pressure. His approach was designed for pressure situations, but it's still up to us to execute the shot.
Not that I'm insisting you should use his approach! Whatever works best for you. Lots of folks kill critters without psycho triggers. I'm a huge Hill/Shulz fan but the style just didn't work as well for me. Who knows, might work for you!
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This may end up rambling, but here are my thoughts after switching to Joel’s method and finding very good results. I’m hoping this may clear some things up for people that have heard of Joel’s method, but maybe haven’t taken the course. I’m also NOT saying you “have” to use a psycho trigger, or you’re doing it wrong. Shoot a bow however you want to. If you want to snap shoot and are happy with your results that’s fantastic. Howard Hill and Fred Bear were amazing shots. Archery can be like throwing a baseball, but not everybody is born a MLB pitcher, nor does everybody have the capacity to get there.
For myself, I had a little bit of TP where I had to shoot as soon as my sight picture looked correct. I shoot with split vision. I focus on the spot I want to hit, but definitely see the arrow in my sight picture. I could get to anchor fine, but most of the time I couldn’t settle into the shot and would drive by the target, plucking a bad release on the way. There were days where I couldn’t miss, I could hit a softball at 40 yards no problem. But then there were days where I could barely keep them on the target at 20 yards.
I think there may be a bit of confusion on what I feel is Joel’s take on the psycho trigger and how it works. The trigger in and of itself doesn’t give results or cure the different cases of TP. Instead you get to anchor, settle your sighting process (doesn’t matter if it’s instinctive, split, gap, etc), and then push all of that to your subconscious. You have 1 goal at this point, focus on whatever movement gets you to your psychotrigger. This movement should be small and you must be in total control of it. In my understanding this is the most important part of Joel’s method and why he says, “it will not work for you, you must work for it”. It’s difficult, but learning to erase those other thoughts is key.
For me using a clicker I am 100% concentrated on expansion. My subconscious lets my sight picture float. I am still looking at what I want to hit, but I am only thinking about expansion. If my sight picture looks wrong (or an animal moves) my subconscious will notice, I can stop expanding, get back on target, and then refocus on the movement to trigger. During practice, if my thoughts drift, or I’m wondering when the clicker is going to go off, I let down. This is the ideal, I still struggle with it sometimes.
This entire focus on the small movement is why I think you can keep long term benefits with a psychotrigger vs the temporary benefits you see when you make a small change to your shot. Every time I changed anchor, or went from split, to 2 under (Toelke), to 3 under I saw great improvement for a week or two, then back to the same issues. There was something new and I had to concentrate on that, but then it became second nature and I would have issues again. I’ve been shooting with the clicker for 9 months and have not had any issues since.
It did not instantly cure my issues. In fact, I shot worse at first. But as I learned to control that movement and keep focus on it, my shooting has definitely improved. Hitting the X is not the intent, but shooting a controlled shot is. I would rather have a shot slightly off, but that I totally controlled, than a shot I didn’t focus on randomly hit the bullseye.
The great thing about all of this, is that this doesn’t prevent me from shooting a quick shot in the moment at an animal at point blank range. (Joel may argue with my thoughts on this…). I have ingrained better form with the trigger, which will only help with muscle memory if I ever have a split instant shot opportunity. But if I ever do decide to do that, it will be a conscious decision to, not b/c I blacked out and lost control
Your results may vary. To the OP’s original question, you can use the finger to mouth as a trigger. If it works, then great. But in my opinion it doesn’t follow the intent of Joel’s teaching (and that’s fine!). There are many amazing archers that don’t use a psychotrigger. Some may snap shoot, guys like Rod Jenkins or John Demmer have the mental fortitude to separate aiming from wanting to release the arrow. Something I could not do 100% of the time.
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I get it Kegan. Good encouragement. Also, the few times I talked with Joel I was equally impressed with much about him.
Lots of variables here for sure. Appreciate all the input as I recover and re-evaluate my shooting style.
Like most here on TG I suspect- I just want to be the best bowhunter I can be. With some great successes in my past, I can only wish I had a few of those moments back when the monster buck made a mistake. . . and I blew it! Arghh. Hopefully fewer of those in my future.
Thanks guys
Dan in KS
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Jon. Your post doesn't feel like rambling at all. Some very good insights. You also touched on one of my points. Guys changing things seems to work for a while but no matter what method they end up back at the same place with performance anxiety
Thanks for the input.
Dan
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I had TP for years. I tried every cure possible and all failed until I started using Joel's system. I tried the Rick Welch style for several years but I just could not hold for any amount of time and still make a good shot. I could hold using Rick Welch method but I collapsed on the shot 75% of the time. I have been using Joel's system for a while now and am shooting better than I ever have. I can hold all day long and let down at any point during the shot process. I come to anchor and pull. pull, pull until the feather touches my nose. I am usually at anchor for 4-6 seconds.
I am concerned aboiut using this method when hunting. I have not hunted yet using this method. I ordinarily release as soon as I'm on target when hunting. I have got to keep my thoughts on pulling until my trigger is reached. I have done very well shooting tournaments this year but drawing on a deer is not 3D. I've been really working on this to get prepared for this upcoming season.
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I use 2 different psycho triggers depending on my bow -- selfbow vs recurve. But it works for me better than anything else I've tried. Anything that helps YOU hit the mark, is fine as far as I see things. The proof is on the paper.
As for hunting vs target shooting, I can't say as far as archery hunting is concerned (still working on that). But when looking at deer through a rifle scope, I've still gone through my mental shot checklist. Sometimes, I've gone through it all up to the trigger press, then started over back to verifying a secure rest because it didn't feel right the first time. I don't expect I would behave differently when using a bow. But I'll have to let you know.
Some of the older videos that advocate between hunting methods and target methods don't line up for me. Taking the methods of an exceptional shooter and applying them to ordinary people seems like a good idea at first. But you have to consider that those are ALREADY exceptional shooters. They may have done extremely well with ANY method they employed because they're already gifted athletes (survivorship bias, for the statistics nerds out there). In other words, for exceptional shooters, the method is often secondary to their pure, raw talent. It can't always be copied by average folks with the expectation of similar results. Sometimes it can. But it's not some sort of scientific law as it's made out to be. I suspect that some of that is just good salesmanship -- "You can do this too for only $19.95!"
I see clickers & other psycho-triggers as the average joe/jane's method to achieve good results if nothing else is working. Some folks can wingshoot half a dozen clays out of the air with their Benelli slung backward over their shoulder using a mirror or some variation of "the force." It's cool to watch. But nobody would ever recommend to teach that as a method to new or average shooters. Besides, there's no need to rush a hunting shot. If a deer is on the move, I'm going to let it walk. I learned that lesson many years ago.
If you're wingshooting discs or birds, well, that's different. Snap shoot away! I don't know how else you're going to do that. Marksmanship and wing shooting are fundamentally different activities. Hunting is not target shooting but employs target shooting at a single point in time during the hunt. But executing a precise shot is the same in both domains. However you best achieve that is just fine.
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Originally posted by KSdan:
As a side note: I professionally travel/teach nationally and Internationally on theology/philosophy. I can assure you all world-views are mutually exclusive. For another conversation in another place. . . :)
I think McDave's point is just that there are many ways to do something well. As for academic or professional credentials, the only papers that really matter here are ones with little half-inch circular holes punched in them, right?
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Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
Originally posted by KSdan:
As a side note: I professionally travel/teach nationally and Internationally on theology/philosophy. I can assure you all world-views are mutually exclusive. For another conversation in another place. . . :)
I think McDave's point is just that there are many ways to do something well. As for academic or professional credentials, the only papers that really matter here are ones with little half-inch circular holes punched in them, right? [/b]
I did let a little of my world view slip into my comments, so I consider myself fair game for KSdan's observations. As far as I'm concerned, both my remarks and KSdan's were made in a friendly manner, in the same spirit as the religious or philosophical beliefs that are expressed in many members' tag lines. As long as nobody tries to impose their beliefs on any other member or dwell on them to the extent that it detracts from our mission of exploring traditional archery, it's fine with me. As far as another conversation in another place, I'm sure that's something that both KSdan and I would enjoy if the opportunity arises.
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Perfect and great response McDave. . . absolutely would enjoy the honest/civil discussion over ones favorite beverage or a campfire.
Yosemite- Thanks for the thoughts. Also- I get your follow-up point as to Dave's point. . .Please don't misunderstand "credentials" - as it doesn't make me omniscient. Thought I would throw a correction for reflection out there as that particular area referenced is my wheel house in vocational life. . .As stated- another place than TG.
Appreciate the civil discourse here.
Dan in KS
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Originally posted by Ray Johnson:
I am concerned about using this method when hunting. I have not hunted yet using this method. I ordinarily release as soon as I'm on target when hunting. I have got to keep my thoughts on pulling until my trigger is reached. I have done very well shooting tournaments this year but drawing on a deer is not 3D. I've been really working on this to get prepared for this upcoming season.
I had this issue when I started using it, too. Deer fever messing with my target panic lol.
Any time I deviated though, I would miss by a mile. Just have to make a good shot and the arrow will go where it's supposed to.
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OP I use back tension as my psycho trigger. For me it’s all about control. When a a nice deer give me an opening I like to have a system I can fall back on otherwise I just fall apart. No I haven’t really talked to much to Mr Turner except he gave me detailed instructions on how to build a thumb tab (seems to be a hell of a nice guy). I started out trying to learn a more fluid style and I can snap shoot at short ranges with reasonable accuracy at arial targets and such but, that came only after I had a solid repeatable system. For me slow is smooth and smooth is fast. If you want to really see a serious snap shooter who can hit most about bing especially if it’s moving check out a guy named Jeff kavanaugh (sp?) on you tube. Hell of an archer!
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An old thread well worth rereading. Joel is the man when it comes to TP. I have a mild form in that the bow wants to hang up just a fraction off the spot. I like all my feathers where they will touch my nose at the peak of back tension. Most of the time I hold per Rick Welch but if I think about it I can also trigger at the touch. I vary the two often in practice.Just my ¢ worth.>>-->Ken