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Main Boards => Recipes/Grilling/ Barbecuing/Smokers => Topic started by: Dean Torges on October 21, 2003, 02:30:00 PM
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Has anyone every used encapsulated citric acid to add a fermented flavor to sausage? It's a short-cut, and said to be indistinguishable in results from the fermented product. Am naturally suspicious of short cuts.
Has anyone made salami or summer sausage without the 20 percent pork that seems requisite with every recipe I've seen? If so, what is your appraisal of the results?
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"Am naturally suspicious of short cuts"
Boy, that's an understatement :knothead: :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: Private joke.
No help here Dean :wavey: .....Van
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Dean,
A friend tried the citric acid last year and I personally didn't think it was near as good (for one thing I just naturally get nervous about anything with a name as long as encapsulated). Also, never tried less than the 20% pork and just doubt it would be as good but then I'm getting older and set in my ways so who knows!! :knothead:
Joe
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Dean ,
never got enough venison to put it into sausage but have made brats and italian and can't imagine they would be as good with out the fat content from the pork . my arteries tell me more fat is a good thing .----- herb
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The "encapsulation" is nothing more than hydrogenated vegetable oil. Keeps the acid from being released prior to reaching a certain temp.
If you use this, use it EXACTLY as it should be used. It works well, and it is a definite short cut vs. a starter culture. Just don't make the most common mistake of all with this stuff....grinding it in with the rest of the mix. It's to be added after the grinding is done.
It also acts as a "preserver" as far as when freezing/storing the end product sausage, it keeps a much fresher color.
For a much more consistent product, I use the citric acid.
On the issue of 20% fat....I have never used over 15% in any of my recipes, and I've used as little as 10% in some.
God Bless.
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Wow. Exceeds my expectations for information. So, Bill, you use encapsulated citric acid in your recipes, or just citric acid? After mixing, do you let it sit in the fridge for a day before casing and smoking?
I'm gonna try just over ten percent based on your info. Hate the thought of putting domestic pigmeat in good venison, but don't want it to be too dry.
I'm following Kutas' recipes for both salami and summer sausage. Last winter I used dextrose in my cure for brining chickens on one occasion, and did not like the flavor it imparted one little bit. Reverted back to sugar. Can I swap sugar for dextrose where it's called for in equal measure?
Thanks for the help.
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You asked for it……grab a cup o’ java and pull up a log…this’ll take a few ! hehe.
OK, first off I need to clarify…….my percentages are probably due to the fact that I use only fat, not “pork”. I have an arrangement with several butchers in the area. When they do their trimming, I get the fat off of it. I only use fresh, and never freeze it up. Takes some timing, but no big deal. I’m particular about which fats I use too. For pork fat, I use only the fat from pork butts and loins. For beef fat, I use on the fat caps from strip loins and 109’s.
I give away a lot of sausage/burger each year, to folks that have never tried “wild game” before. I generally make up somewhere between 200 and 300 pounds of sausage and burger each year. By using the fat caps from strip loins to cut into my burger meat, I add enough fat/moisture that they generally can’t screw it up too bad. Remember, folks that have never tasted wild game, have never COOKED wild game and will cook those burger to a well done, cremated state. Without a decent fat content, they’ll come away HATING it. I run about 10% beef fat into my grind for burger….less for my chili grind.
There are fat substitutes out there. One is called “rp lean” or something like that…it was developed by the USDA. I’ve heard mixed reports on it. Frankly, there’s no substitute for “real” fat. Most of these substitutes are made from oats…..yeah, OATS. The reason I use only fat, and not pork “meat” is that I believe I can use less, and it doesn’t impart a domestic flavor to the game meat near as much. It’s a helluva lot cheaper too.
Encapsulated Citric Acid....Let’s call encapsulated citric acid “eca”, so I don’t have to type the whole dang words out. You can't use just citric acid...has to be encapsulated, or your meat will not be firm. It doesn’t actually ferment the sausage….it merely makes the sausage taste like it was fermented. Kinda like liquid smoke. It does a real good job of it too. Takes very little to work. The “capsule” actually melts around 135 degrees. You do NOT hold this in the frig overnite….after you get your sausage mixed up, then add the eca (carefully, folding it into the mix), then cook it up. ECA is in a powder form, and folds in easily. Remember, citric acid is a naturally occurring acid too. IF the acid blends with the meat at the mixing process, it will make the meat sort of mushy….I believe this is where people screw up. It ain’t rocket science, you have to fold it into the mix, and don’t run it thru the grinder. It encapsulated for a reason, ya know. ECA is an acidulant as well as an antioxidant too. Acidulants help reduce the ph in the sausage, which helps preserve the meat.
There’s another product like eca on the market called “fermento”….basically, it sucks bigtime.
Now, dextrose vs. sugar……dextrose is about 75% as sweet as sugar. Because it’s less sweet, you use more. If you are using the regular starter vs. citric acid, dextrose helps the lactic acid ferment better. Cane sugar is table sugar. It is usually used in meat brines but not used much in sausage because it will easily burn or scorch. Brown sugar is used in most brines but sometimes used in meat because of its flavor. Dextrose is corn sugar and it will not burn as easily as cane sugar. When a recipe calls for cane sugar you can replace it with dextrose by adding 20% to 25% more dextrose than cane sugar due to the sweetness factor between cane sugar and dextrose. One of the biggest differences using dextrose vs. cane sugar is that if you use dextrose, you will notice when you grill your sausage, it doesn’t “burn” or scorch…you sausage isn’t what’s making that link black, it’s the sugar. If you didn't like the "taste" of dextrose, something was wrong. Not sure on brining....maybe use corn syrup solids...which is basically dextrose, but I think there is a subtle difference.
OK, now binders. Soy protein concentrate is probably the most popular in sausage making. Goes from beans to grits to protein concentrate to protein isolate. Now, these binders are used to keep water in your sausage. What happens is, it allows you to add water to your sausage mix, and when cooked/smoked, the water is the “moisture” that leaves the sausage before the natural juices do. There are special meat binders out there that work better, and actually do help give you a better/moister end product.
made from the refining process of soy beans. The first step is soy grits, which are used in patties and products like Hamburger Helper®. Next comes soy protein concentrate, then soy protein isolate. All soy products have a high protein value. This gives soy its binding capability, allowing you to add water to your sausage for a moister product. Binders are used to prevent weight loss and shrinkage to products being processed in the smokehouse, by helping to retain the natural juices (moisture) in the meat. This product also helps to bind the sausage together and can be use in meat products such as burgers to retain the natural juices from cooking out. Binders are added at about 5% of the total meat’s weight.
So, ‘nuff info ??? :bigsmyl:
God Bless.
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Thanks for the help, Bill. These came out very good indeed.
http://www.bowyersedge.com/images/Posts/sumsaus-2.jpg
http://www.bowyersedge.com/images/Posts/sumsauscut-1.jpg
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Hey Bill send me one of them sausages :-)
NightHawk
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Hey, I didn't make 'em, Dean did !
Looks like primo stuff for sure Dean, glad I could be of help. Ya know, I've had 3 cookbooks partially done for years now, and one of 'em is on nothing but sausages, jerks, rubs and smoking. Maybe it's about time to finish 'er up.....
I"ll start my sausage making in about two more weeks.
God bless.
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Dean, which of Kutas's recipe(s) did you use? My book mentions nothing about encapsulated CA but it's a 1984 edition. Also, did you use a controlled temp/humidity smoker or the standard Brinkman-type?
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I learned about eca from butcher-packer.com sausage supply catalogue, as a sub for fermento, which Bill sez is not such good stuff. My summer sausage came out really great using it. Had just the right bite to it. Let it age in the fridge for two days prior to stuffing. I used Kutas's summer sausage for venison recipe, and stayed with it without variation. Just finished the Cotto salami, too. 25 lbs of it. Doubled the garlic on his recipe and it is a bit much. Shoulda stuck with what he recommended.
I don't use anything for a smoker but a converted upright freezer. Ripped the shelving out of it, installed a thermostat and vents, etc., and it works pretty damned good. Smoke hams, bacon, chickens, etc. Jerky, too. I can smoke jerky at 100 F.
Dave B., I received your notes ok, but wasn't able to respond to them.
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Here's a photo of my smoker (http://www.bowyersedge.com/images/Posts/smoker1.jpg) when it was newly assembled. I have a few more wires and thermometers sticking out of it now, and it's considerably dungier.
Photos of smoked chickens (http://www.bowyersedge.com/images/Posts/Christmaschicks2.jpg) and feral ham (http://www.bowyersedge.com/images/Posts/feralham.jpg) from converted freezer. Jerky tray assembly (http://www.bowyersedge.com/images/Posts/driedtrays.jpg) the first time I tried it out. Cobbled from cookie cooling racks and hickory arrow shafts.
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Bill, I just want to thank you again for sharing information. Encouragements to you on the three books!
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Dean,
OK ! You pushed me over the edge...I making a smoker like yours!
Got a site for info or how you made up yours?
Thanks,
Bob
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Bob, I didn't have any real directions beyond a brief description and the crude drawing of the inside of a refrigerator from the Kutas sausage book. It's something I've wanted to do for years. Finally got around to it when circumstances came together with the purchase of a new upright freezer. The door sprang open several times and caused food to thaw, so I drilled holes in the side of it to accept a hasp. Drill bit found a refrigerant coil and punctured it, creating just the ruined hull I needed for a smoker. :cool:
Nothing to it after that. Strip out the shelves, install a 6 by 8 vent in the door bottom, a 6" vent with a damper in the top, some hanger brackets for meat poles (which are rejected hoe handles from a nearby factory), a hole for the hotplate electrical cord, a thermostat to regulate temps (worth the money to have such fine control over the process)and, voila, a smoker.
Works pretty darned good. If you need any specific info, feel free to mail me.
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http://www.askthemeatman.com/how_to_make_smoker_art_updated_9300.htm
Here is a simple plan for a freezer smoker. Now I have to find a freezer. :D
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Might be worth investigating, from Amazon.com: "Build a Smokehouse" by Ed Epstein (Illustrator),
Price: $3.95
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Dean,
How do you smoke the chickens? My mouth has been watering since I saw those pics.
How hot can one get, (safely), when using the fridge smoker?
Thanks, Darryl
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Originally posted by Darryl:
How do you smoke the chickens?
Here is a recipe that I use. You have to try it to find out just how freaking good they are smoked thisaway. Tender, moist and flavorful beyond description.
Brine:
I gallon water per two/three chickens
4.5 oz powdered dextrose or 3.3 oz sugar, or 5 TBS brown sugar
6.5 oz pickling salt
3.2 oz sodium nitrite (available from butcher-packer.com for $1.50 per pound--good folks for smokehouse supplies).
Wash out cavities, clean birds and place them in large plastic bag inside a 5 gallon bucket. Pour in cure, and then add tap water around the perimeter of the plastic bag to partially fill the bucket. This forces air out of the cure bag and surrounds the meat with the brine.
Place bucket in refrigerator at 38 to 40 degrees for three days, stirring and tumbling birds four or five times the duration. Remove after cured and rinse birds thoroughly, but do not submerge in water.
I chill or ice the tap water in the bucket before laying in the plastic bag full of cure and birds. The 38 to 40 degree range is important to prevent bacteria growth while allowing the cure to work for an extended refrigeration period. Too high stimulates one; too low prevents the other.
Place birds in cotton mesh bags (this and dextrose, etc., are also available from Butcher-packer.com) and hang in smoker preheated to 130 or so, with damper and vent wide open. After birds have glazed over (smoke won't stick to wet meat), usually two to three hours, close vents to 1/4 open and introduce a heavy hickory sawdust smudge for about 4 to 5 hours, depending on how much smoke flavor you like. Increase temp to 140-150 range. Then close vents, increase temp slowly up to 170 until internal temp of 152-155 in breast is achieved. Cool at room temp for several hours before eating or refrigerating.
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Here is a recipe that I use. You have to try it to find out just how freaking good they are smoked thisaway. Tender, moist and flavorful beyond description.
Thanks Dean!
Darryl
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good day gentlemen,
your posts on smoking and sausage making are very instructive. there is some serious dedication to eating here.
i was wondering if anyone here knows about making dry-cured salami or meats, much like hard pork salamis or prociutto or schinken (the German version). i have already found information on making these products with pork and beef, but any of the venison-versions i have discovered (internet, local library, cook books, etc) call for heating over 130F, which really just cooks the meat.
what i ask myself: do i HAVE to heat venison over 130F, as one does with summer sausage? is it necessary because it is "wild" meat, and has not been inspected by a veterenarian?
any hints or thoughts are greatly appreciated, because i LOVE dry cured meats.
PS: last christmas i was in Germany, and they sold red stag cured meat, and wild boar prociutto in a delicatessen store. no words to describe the flavor.
cheers,
andreas
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Originally posted by andreas:
... the venison-versions i have discovered (internet, local library, cook books, etc) call for heating over 130F, which really just cooks the meat.
Andreas, different curing and smoking methods and temperature schedules help yield different results, different kinds of sausages and salamis. It's mostly a matter of what you are after as a final product, with the important exception and consideration of trichinae in pork. Smoking meat to an internal temp over 138° F destroys trichinae in pork (if any exists). It also stops the fermentation process in semi-dried sausages such as summer sausage.
There are no health risks that I know of in dry-curing venison (including red deer). However, if you want to be safe when dry-curing pork that never reaches 138-140, you either have to have government certified trichinae-free meat, or you have to have the meat at certain thicknesses frozen at low temps for a prescribed length of time, or you have to keep the meat curing with a certain salt content for an extended period of time. Nothing to fool around with if you don't know the parameters, though trichinosis is not nearly the danger that it was 50 years ago when the family farm slopped hogs. Proscuitto from feral hog is safe because of the very long and salty dry-curing process and also because the internal temp is brought past 140 near the end of the cure.
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thank you for your reply Mr. Torges,
it is indeed good news to hear that the good old michigan whitetailed deer will do for dry cure. i have set aside plenty for this purpose.
my original concern for heating a red meat product above 140 degrees Fahrenheit was with the change in protein structure (was it called hydrolyzation?!), and the resulting change in the meat's texture. what i enjoy the most in dry cured meats and sausages, such as "schinken", prociutto, etc., is the hallmark texture and aroma, which sausages such as summer sausage, cervelat, etc. do not have. i do understand now, though, that heating above 140 does not disqualify for the label "dry cure".
i will keep researching and will post my findings on dry curing venison the german way (as i will again have the pleasure of spending time there over christmas) for those who are interested.
cheers,
andreas
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Dean, did you brine/smoke the ham similiar to the chickens? A friend of mine in PA does deer "hams" via the artery pumping method and the results are incredible. I would also think a wild turkey could be cured in similiar fashion to your chickens.
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Jim, I inject hams because they are otherwise too thick to leave in a brine by the soak method. The likelihood of the meat souring around the bone before the cure can reach it is greatly lessened by injecting or artery pumping. Chickens are thin enough across the breast and thigh that a three day soak usually permeates them completely.