Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: Terry Green on April 11, 2003, 03:20:00 PM
-
OK guys....if you were going to shoot a 1000 grain arrow at an OZ buff, would you prefer one shafted loaded and flying perfect, or one shaft inside another for added strength flying perfect?
Would a 110# spined carbon be strong enough by itself if loaded and flying perfect?
Would you consider a fiber glass shaft? And if so, what weight would I expect from a 29" BOP glass shaft?
-
terry
I remember reading somewhere about an archer who took a few buffalo and used solid fiberglass "fish arrows" Seems like they also performed penatration tests on a dead Rino with the same arrows. Have you ever heard of this? Those arrows are mighty heavy.
Dean
-
Terry -- One - is it makes no diffrence to me how a hunter arrives at their heavy arrow. Several methods work and I think all would perform equally well. Stuffed is cool - sleeved is cool - fish arrows are cool. You mention 110# spine - something to watch out for here is that when you add weight - you lower the spine value - and by a lot more than most folks would guess. I am shooting a 2020 with a 1716 inside - these two spine values on paper are well above the 65# that actually shoots the arrows perfectly. Same thing with Rick's recipe - - we shoot 2219's with a full sleeve of gold tip inside. I can remember shooting 2219's out of 70# bows a long time ago - and yet we get perfect arrow flight with the gold tip in there out of 80 to 85 # limbs now. Monty went from fish arrows to stuffed carbon - and he gets those very stiff - and heavy arrows to push off traditional design longbows very cleanly. I have noticed among some of my friends that the stuffed arrows are not as consistent in weight as sleeved --- not that you couldn't - but it is another step to watch
-
Who was it that filled aluminum shafts with sand for weight? later, Harry.
-
Cory, is right it makes no difference how you get there, but I will tell you when I first started working up my buff arrows I had some serious headaches. We get spoiled shooting "normal" weight bows, all you do is check a spine chart, slap some big feathers on it and go and usually that is good enough, but when you get to shooting animals like buffalo that tend to get annoyed when you bounce arrows off them, not to mention the guy with the big rifle behind you is not to happy about it either. If there was a small diameter heavy weight shaft that I could buy all I wanted, whenever I wanted I would use them in a second. I tried some 100-105 spine Forgewood shafts and they were awesome, but they are hardly ever available. The fish arrows that Monty uses on everything EXCEPT BUFFALO are only about 55# spone weight, his small diameter carbons don't have enough spine for me either. The GT BigGame 100+ is as close as I have been able to come to an off the shelf buffalo shaft so far, but it is still to light in grain and spine. Rick
-
something else to look at, I have heard of now a Lam Hickory/Oak shaft thats out there, not sure what kind of weight you can get with it but its there.
-
also if I may, Fred Bear shot a water buff. Dont quote me but I think he was shooting a 65lb bow. Might be another thing to look into.
-
I don't recall hearing of Fred shooting a water buff, I did read the story of his Cape buff hunt. I don't remember the bow poundage, but it was more than 65 and I believe he used a pod on it also. Rick
-
There is a story i read of Fred hunting some kind of buff on an island some where in a tropical climate as i recall. Very swampy terain and he called it one of his toughest hunts. I thought it was water buff also but when my Brother returns from Calf I get the book and see if it was. I believe he even hunted his elephant with a low poundage bow (75#) thats what the video says anyways. Remember he was already in his 50s and 60s when he hunted the dark cont.
Dean
-
Rick,
Getting 1000 grains from a carbon is a breeze. But the dynamic spine changes when you load it, and its a chalenge out of this heavy ACS I'm shooting. Like you said, when I load up the shafts, you can throw the spine chart out the window.
-
Rick,
It was a buff of some kind. I'll also dig up the perodical as I also remember pics of it. Thought it was an aussie waterbuff. Never was good with the land down under though. I definatly know it wasnt a cape buff. I'll see what I can find in my old books and get something scanned and see if it says anything about his equip.
Dan
-
Rick,
it was an asiatic water buffalo, I believe he was hunting with Sweetland at the time. I am still looking for the dern article uggh. It has a pic also of his buff.
I'll keep digging.
Dan
-
It was in Brazil with Bob Munger and it was Asiatic Water Buffalo, here is a good website, look at the slide shows.
http://www.mooseran.com/
Tom
-
Tarz, I have some 1000 grain carbons that I made up with help from Mark Land and I can even get them to fly pretty well, only problem is trying to get the balance forward, those new brass inserts should help when I get my hands on them, but it would still be nice if there was an easier way to do it.
I never heard about Fred hunting the water buff in S. America. They are a different breed than the ones in Australia, the ones in OZ are swamp buff, the ones in S.A. are riverine buff they have a different horn configuration and are a bit smaller. Rick
-
Thanks for he help Tom! Still flipping through my old IA mags to find it lmao. I think I got side tracked reading some of the old hill articles, ah the good ole days. DOH, the brazil hunts are the only ones I couldnt get into, go figure. OH well, thanks for the link, I'll keep my eyes peeled
Rick
They all buff to me, I'll never get to hunt them LOL. I wonder what the size difference was as if I remember that critter looked 1-1200lbs or as big as a mature bull moose up here. The horns were pretty dern big from what I remember of the pic, I'd go a solid 60"es, but know I know where to look!
btw, I found one of the pics I remember. Its an amazon water buffalo pg 189, trailing a bear by Munger. I know there was another one (picture) of either the same or another bull. I'll see if I cant find it. Also if you want the pic I can scan it and post it here for all to see. I'll do the same if I can find that old stinker thats eluding me
Dan
-
A 30 inch length of cable co-axle wire weighs 360 grains for you guys wanting to really add some weight. I'm going to cut this length to 28.5, and load it into a 29 inch Nitro Trad heavy. Maybe a tad longer to make sure that when I put the insert back in, it scrunches the wire so's it wont rattle.
-
If I recall corectly fred told me that he took the eliphant with a 90# bow.. but I could be wrong it was years ago that the conversation took place..
gator
-
I loaded it into a Trad Lite instead. Loaded from the front end, the shaft took 21.25 inches of cable to the narrowed taper...and the 29" BOP Trad Heavy with a 100 grains steel adapter and 160 grain Grizz weighs 835 grains.
30 more grains of head....half inch more shaft and cable is gonna be real close to 900 grains. Definately over 900 with a Trad Heavy.
-
Terry the problem I ran into when I tried loading up shafts was that anything full length that didn't have any spine, like rope, weedeater line, aquarium tubing etc. reduced the dynamic spine of the shaft. Thats why I ended up with a shaft in a shaft, to give me the weight AND spine. Rick
-
As a starting point on a heavy carbon.
What are some of the heaviest Carbons sold these days? I know the Grizzly Stick is heavy, but who sells these? What about some of the new Gold Tip Hardwoods or others and where to buy them? :confused:
-
Twang, The ABS Griz Sticks are going to come in 2 weights, 11 grains/in and 15 grains/in. Ed at Alaska Bowhunting Supply is trying his best to get them out there. The down side is going to be the cost as these are American made. The cost should more than work itself out as these dudes are tough!....O.L.
-
Found some different wire...larger diameter, and about the biggest most perfect size your gonna find to fit into the Nitros. I now have a 945 grain arrow....just got to see if it will fly out of this 75#@28 ASC.....the quest continues....
-
It flies!!!
And its got the speed still at 12.6 grains per # for a Buff Momentum requirement. Got some fine tuning to do, and a string change. I'f all goes well, I'll have a 945 grain arrow moving 162 to 165 FPS.
If I move to a 190 grain head, I'll have a 975 grainer moving 160 I hope. Thats the destination of the quest.....
-
Tarzan,
Looks like you are about there if you go by Dr. Ashby's .65+ momentum. Good job. :D
Java Man
-
82 lbs bow ...1400 grain arrow....? Man it might work .....fiberglass?
..Mark c.
-
I'm at 162FPS now due to a string change, and minor adjustments.
I have a 75#@28 with a MO of .68!!!!!!
-
Terry sounds good. :thumbsup: Rick
-
Wow T !! Sounds like you got it and the string change helped. Hope to have one of my own soon.
:thumbsup:
-
Charlie, the arrows shafts are on the way today. let me know how they do. The shafts weighed 543,574,and 640 depending on inserts. They are 30 1/2in long and I tried to shoot them @ 30in. of a heavy longbow and I thing they should work for you. See ya, Mark
-
WOW Terry. Sounds like you've got the "stuff" now. Lord help anything that gets in the way of that stick after you let it loose!!!
Kyle
-
Yep, I am most happy. I think I can get 3 more FPS from this set up....once final tuning is done I hope. Haven't had time to fool with it since these changes were made.
May not sound like much...but with a 945 grain arrow, its a lot, and ever bit will help in the buff department.
-
Mark , I may want to try a set up like that , I think I know a shop that sell muzzy ,great info..#78 Mark
-
Mark...Got the shafts and finished preliminary bareshafting. Everything looks super. I favored the shaft with the fifty grain insert for my first tests. I'll try one with an even heavier insert and see how it works. Got it shooting out of a 78# recurve right now, but am going to back down in bow weight by four pounds. I'll get it through the chrono soon and work up some momentum numbers. After that I'll put the shafts through some "toughness" testing to see what they've got... I suspect they are bomb proof!!
-
Great! Glad to hear it Charlie, just let me know how they do. Mark
-
Hey!
Just caught this thread, and I have a question; What is the momentum (MO) factor, how does it work, and how do I caluculate it? I got that Dr. Ashby said something about .65+ for buff(?), but I'm lost beyond that.
Any references I can look up?
Thanks
-
David,
Check out the thread just below this one. I topped it up for ya.
-
If ya need a really heavy arrow I have one for ya. 2213 XX75 + 29 1/2 inches long,+ with 125 grain head = over 1600 grains. Oh I forgot to mention that the 2213 is sleeved over a fiberglass fishing arrow! :bigsmyl: .....It's for gator hunting.
ASMS
Rob
-
Thanx, Tarzz!
Rob, D'ya think it would work for griz? :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: !["[tunglaff]"]("graemlins/tunglaff.gif" "\"\"")
-
Ive seen 500 gr arrows work on Griz's.....the guy was shooting a bow with training wheels :readit:
Otherwise heck ya they'd work!
ASMS
Rob
-
ttt
-
I'm more sold than ever on the heavy arrows, but I didn't need much selling. I think for most guys an arrow in the 900-1000 grain range is going to be best for buffalo. However, they do need to fly perfectly AND a 20 yard shot is optimum. Also the smaller the diameter the better. Rick
-
Just out of curiosity, what are ya'll drawing (inches)? I don't have plans of going to Oz any time soon, but that is a dream hunt, and one I will do eventually if at all possible. Honestly don't know if I'd have it in me to go for the big buffalo, but I'd like to think I do. But anyway.....
I draw 30.5" on my longbow, normal anchor. Has anyone figured in how much this will affect penetration? I have shot tournaments with 80+ lbs, and don't think it would be much of a chore to get back up to that weight (shoot 66 now). What I am getting at is this--I want to be sure I am shooting enough bow, but also want to stay as low as I can for accuracy/pucker factor purposes. This will take me years, literally, to pull off--getting the right bow, arrows, etc. (and saving up for each in-between purchases) and I want to start planning some.
Also, what do you suggest using for a target face (for size reference), and what in the world are you shooting into to stop your arrows and still be able to pull them? I get cussed on a regular basis on the 3-D range with the set-up I am using now--sometimes it takes two of us to pull the arrow, and I ain't no runt.
Finally, where can I get more info. on Oz? What game can you hunt there, specifics on each species, etc. Who knows--I may hit it big one day and get to go there sooner than I expected.
Chad
PS I want to thank you guys, especially Ric, for bringing up hunting in Australia. Always wanted to go there for some reason, now I REALLY want to! Africa used to be the dream, until I researched it--sounds like it would still be an exciting trip, but not really the type hunt I am interested in.
-
Chad, 30.5 @ 80#'s with the right arrows would work just fine on buff. In fact that would work out close to what Monty shoots. His bow was 84#'s, but he draws an inch or so less and the extra power stroke is a big advantage, i.e. the string is pushing on the arrow longer. There are lots of animals to hunt in OZ and in someways it is more like hunting in the old wild west than anything else. I can probably answer most of your questions if you shoot me an email. Rick
-
Rick , Everytime I read the dangerous game section there seems to be heavier bow weights . Whats the best way to move into working yourself into shooting heavier bows I started 2 years ago shooting 45 # now I can shoot 63# no problem , but Id like to get to 70 or 75 but i seem to have reach my limit..any suggestions? thanks ,Mark#78
-
The most important thing is to not do any damage, that will move you waaayyyy back. So work into it gently, don't ever get into a situation where you have to jerk your bow back. Remember that ANY exercise will benefit your entire body, so staying in good shape will make it easier. Don't over shoot. I don't recommend shooting everyday, three or four times a week is plenty. Draw you bow with both arms. I leave a heavy bow strung and whenever I think of it I will draw it and hold for a few seconds, both right and left handed. It amazes me that after doing this for a while, I can draw and hold my 85# bow left handed with no problems. Don't lock into shooting a particular number of arrows, i.e."I'm goin to shoot 20 arrows this time"! Do what you can do without straining and creating bad habits, you're better off to shoot less arrows at one time, but spread it out over the day. Rick
-
The buff,in OZ came from Timore they are the indian water buffalo.I know number of guy,s that have taken them with both compond and recurve-longbows.The most common bow weight used by the locals up there is 70#.I would sujest you pick a good climbing tree before you take the shot but make sure there is not a snake up it first.
Cheers,Jack.