Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: Rick Boyer on April 18, 2003, 09:12:00 PM
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Just curious.. seen a show tonight that said you need at least 80# kinetic energy to hunt cape buff.. well Im asking you guys what would in your expereince be exeptable Poundege and arrow weight??? just a averege..
gator
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Gator,
It would take a bow that can shoot a 900 gr. arrow at 201FPS to hit the 80 in KE.
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Forgot to say that if you dropped to an 800 grain arrow you would need a bow that could push it at 213 FPS
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I was hoping some of these guys had thoughts on set ups that have worked for them.. 65# or so is all the bow I want to shoot but I will probly never get to hunt buff anyway I was just curious..
gator
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KE is virually useless for figuring out hwat bow and arrow combination to use for a particular species. Several years ago Monty Browning and a compound hunter were hunting water buffalo in Australia with me. Monty was using his 81# long bow and 1500 grain arrows, with Hunters heads. The Other guy was shooting an 85# wheel bow with 700 grain arrows. They calculated that the coumpound shooter had DOUBLE the amount of KE of Monty's setup, which if I remember was 43. To make it short Monty got better penetration. Some of that was due to the compound arrows being tipped with 3 blade punch point heads, but for sure not all of it. Rick
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Trying to set a standard by draw weight and arrow weight doesn't tell you the whole story and could be misleading as a starting point. There are bows out there that will out perform other bows that are 10+ pounds greater in draw weight with the same arrow.
IMO, discounting KE as a factor in penetration is drawing the wrong conclusions from the data and observations. It's not that KE isn't important, it's that other factors are MORE important. Broadhead design, arrow weight, and shot placement are probably on par with each other. Tuning and KE would fall after that. Pushing a broadhead through a substance takes energy...the more it has the further it will penetrate....It has to unless the world is flat. The problem is some broadheads due to design may require twice the energy to cut the same distance. So it's not that KE isn't important just other factors are more so. A bows only job is to transfer KE to an arrow and do so accurately. Rick in your example and if KE wasn't important, what if the compound had been shooting the same arrow and broadhead with identical shot placement? What if the longbow was 40 pounds and shot the same arrow and broadhead? KE has to be in the mix but it can't be used a the only factor.....O.L.
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Rick , I like all this hunting talk thanks...would the fact that monty shots are at about 12 to 15 yards a factor also...wonder how close the compound hunter was?? thank you Sir, Marek #78
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O.L> of course there are lots of factors involved, thats the point I didn't make very well. Arrow weight, speed, flight, placement, broadhead design are all important. Unfortunatly KE is use as the sole criteria in some places and it dosn't work very well as a sole criteria. You can take two arrows that are utherwise identical, but one weighs 700 grains and the other 1500 and move them until they have the same KE, which one will penetrate better on the exact sme shot? The 1500 grainer.
Bayou, yep Monty prefers those shots as most of us do, but his water buffalo, was probably about 22 yards, similar the the first shot from the compound. Rick
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not realy trying to it pin point it to a certain wieght and such.. just thought that some of these guys that has hunted big game could shine a little light on what worked for them..
gator
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Gator, I typed out a long detailed reply to this and then got the "modem disconnected" message and it was lost to cyberspace, just got to love when that happens :scared: Basically when someone says that you need X amount of KE for a particular animal, I wouldn't listen to any more of their "advice". They may have meant that 80#KE was the minimum legal rquirement and that is true in places. Under perfect conditions you could take a buff with your 65# bow. Rick
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I feel there is one other thing to go along with arrow weight, broadhead design, bow poundage, and shot placement when going after Dangerous game. There seems to be one factor no one has talked about.
Draw length,,,, I consider this to be a major part when hunting bad boys.
Take two hunters pulling the same bow weight, using the arrow weight and design. One has a 30" draw while the other has only a 27" draw. Power stroke from the longer draw IMHO just gave that hunter an added 10+% advantage in recovery.
Don't want to sound like I'm slamming those that are draw length challenged, just throwing another factor into the game of success and recovery.
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draw length challenged :scared: I draw 26" thats not challenged.. it just a way to save on ceder.. :bigsmyl: I do understand this thu but I can build a recurve that at 65# at 26" draw will shoot a 550 grain arrow over 200 fps. bamboo backed of course.. this is where certain bows do have the advantege over others.. some of the higher end glass recurves wont shoot that speed at that poundege and draw length..
gator
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Troy, I agree that power stroke is important, but its one thing I hesitate to mention. I think that it is one thing, that is what it is and to try to "improve" it is just asking for trouble. On the bright side as Gator said, using the right bow for your draw length can compensate for any short comings(pun intended). Rick
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Rick,
Totally understand the bow design part. Thats why I shoot one of O.L.'s bows.
Just wanted to point out that even though some contries require "x" amount KE to hunt certain animals it doesn't always require heavy bows to produce that amount of KE. Someone stated several years ago that 1" more of draw often equals 4-5 pounds of bow weight. My finding are somewhat less in the amount of gain but still a noticeable gain.
To give a prospective to all this, I used to draw a recurve 29" on a reqular basis. After switching to a longbow I noticed that my draw had reduced to 27". After adjusting my form and switching to a three piece longbow my draw is now a consistance 28-1/2" and if I think about it and really hold form I can again get 29".
I havn't changed bow weights. When I was pulling 27" I shot 57# at 27". I now shoot 57# at 28" and have had to move up one spine group. The extra 1/2" in draw may be the reason.
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Troy, I asked Monty what his draw length was one time and he told me "it depends" on asked "on what", he said "on how big an animal I'm shooting at". At least he admits he has the worse form in the world, but it works for him! Rick
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Obviously, it is very hard to get to 80KE with traditional equipment, in order to be legal in RSA and maybe other spots for certain game (cape buff.). :readit:
I have yet to find anyone who is actually doing it or has done it. Think about what Troy is saying, 201 fps w 900g. I don't think the trad. bow has been made yet that can shoot 10g per pound 200 fps, so you are looking at an excess of 90 lbs and consider a drop in bow efficiency at these wt. I guess we are up to a 100#'s to accomplish this. :confused:
My hat is off to anyone who has done this. Please step forward and be recognized. :thumbsup:
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If I ever get MR.ADCOCK to create my Masterpiece of 90# I'll be certain to pass along ALL pertinent
information! LOL Mike
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Mike, I'd have to hire 3 men and a boy just to string a 90 pounder! LOL...I'd much rather build a 75 pounder that shoots as hard as a 90....O.L.
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O.L. .... In your opinion is there a point where you quit getting out of the bow what you put into it?
I never got real scientific about it, but back in the days when I shot much heavier stuff it seemed like performance didn't improve that much after I reached 75#. It may have just been the bows I was shooting, but I never shot an 80 pounder that really impressed me.
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Charlie, I can't shoot those heavy bows to have any personal opinions. I've seen in a lot of testing on bows from 40# to 65# that the lighter bows are more efficient for their draw weight so it makes sense if that trend was to continue that a point may be reached where not much is gained with extra weight. Part of the falicy of set draw weights, arrow weights, KE and the like is bows are not equal. I've seen on several occasions where one bow will match or exceed another performance wise with the same arrow at 10#+ less draw. It's just not fair to exclude that bow because someone drew a line in the sand. Just no good way of doing it. In the old days, those using inadaquate equipment got eaten or trampled, nature sorted it out! LOL....O.L.
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O.L.
Yeah I see what you mean. Trying to put together an arrow/bow combo for Asiatic Buff and gotta think I can get enough energy into a heavy arrow without having to "rassle" an 80# bow. I think Terry and Lance are lookin at the same thing.
I'd just as soon avoid the "nature sortin things out" approach. :D
My thought on the Buff bow is that if Monty Browning kills a buff with an 85# longbow, then I should be able to match performance with say 77/78# recurve that shoots fast.
Gotta think that if one of the guys had some hard Chrono numbers for their Buff bows and arrow I would have a guideline to go by. So far I haven't seen that posted.
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Charlie , I here ole monty shooting 92lbs now . thanks Mc
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I do think that 75#'s out of the right bow with the right arrows and shot well is enough for asiatic. However I know my 85# will shoot through the worse parts even if things aren't going perfectly :) Monty's bow was only shooting the 1500 grain arrow at about 140fps for I think he said a KE of 43 or so?
I don't beleive in the "laws or diminishing returns" as pertains to getting an arrow to the target. Most of the time when someone says everything else was equal, it really wasn't. The best bow design for 45#'s may not be the best for 85#'s. The advantage of shooting the heavier bow is not to shoot a light arrow faster, but to shoot a heavier arrow at the same speed. I have two "identical" sets of limb, except one is 79#'s and the other is 85#'s and believe me there is a very obvious difference in performance.
My recommendation for guys that want to go next year is to start working on your setup NOW. The bow part is fairly easy, you just need to tune it to the max and work into shooting it. The hard part is coming up with the right arrows. Rick
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Rick,
If Monty's set up is as stated, them my set up should be good enough. I'm getting 42# of KE with the setup. However,,,,, I ain't so sure I want to tackle Cape Buff with a 60# bow.... :scared:
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Rick, I agree with you for the most part but you make it sound like some bows will shoot heavier arrows "Better" than light. I have never seen that to be the case. In every case, comparing one bow to another, which ever one shot the light arrow the fastest also would shoot a heavy arrow the fastest. Same arrows.....Not sticking with XX grians/pound. In some cases the spread between will actually get greater as the arrow weight goes up....O.L.
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Would anyone here resort to using wheels to get to a minimum KE for buff? :D
I myself would rather go to Mozambique. ;)
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WHEELS!!! :smileystooges:
gator
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OL, sorry if I wasb't clear on what I was trying to say, cause that wan't it at all. I agree with what you said. I wasn't trying to compare heavy and light arrows out of the same bow. I was trying to make the point that the advantage of going to a higher poundage bow, was NOT to shoot an arrow of the same grain weight faster, than out of a lighter bow, but to shoot a heavier arrow at the same speed (roughly) as the lighter arrow out of the ligher bow. Rick
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Gosh Rick, scared me for a second. I was hoping you didn't believe that old wives tale! Absolutly...Heavier and faster together is ideal cause you can go up even more in arrow weight but I'll take heavier and the same speed any day. Dropping arrow weight to gain speed is false economy!....O.L.
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O.L.YEAH, thats what I was trying to say, but with a lot more words! Rick
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Charlie-I have a BW that is 84 lbs @28 inches. My arrows weigh 945-950 and shoot through the chrono at 165 fps.
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57 ft/lbs of KE according to my calcs.
Wow, 84# bow and still only gets about 71% of the way there. :rolleyes:
Don't guess I'll be hunting RSA for buff unless these steriods kick in soon! :bigsmyl:
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Twang- Isn't that the truth! It took me about a year to work into this system between the mechanics of the arrow and the physical part of it. If the buff thing in Moz works out we are thinking of trying to hook up in OZ asap because at our ages I don't know how long you can pull the weight w/o some kind of blow out. Have been very religous about the training part of this and make a major effort to warm up with a 60 lb bow before shooting the big boy. So far, so good.
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Crane,
To me, you are a youngster. I have underwear older than you! :readit: So it is only an academic exercise (I wonder if they really check even in RSA and if they do, then the usual 200 Rand stipend should take care of any problem there right? ;) ).
I have heard that other countries in Africa (Mozambique for one) offer Cape Buff hunting without the KE rule and it doesn't seem like there is a rule in OZ for their buff?
Can anyone clarify this further? :confused:
If this is the case, then it is simply a matter of what would work, KE aside. :knothead:
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Crane... thanks for the input. Needed some goals. :)
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There may be instances of PHs looking the other way on the KE thing in SA. Having read these and other threads for awhile, and in conjunction w/ Ashby's work,the KE requirments are a bit of a joke. I know that in MOZ there are none, other that acceptance from your hunter. But the other side of that is after talking to 3 separate parties who hunted there(Moz) last year, bigger is better.
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No rules in OZ for buff or any of the feral animals. Moz is the best bet in Africa for cape buff for trad guys. Rick
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75#@28 ASC will do the job. Getting a MO of .66 with a 945 grain arrow. Brutal. I'd be dang near over .70 with an 80#er.