Post by: LBR on August 25, 2003, 09:27:00 PM
I will need arrows that are approximately 31" BOP, hopefully in the 900-1,000 grain range, spined for a deflex/reflex longbow that is [email protected]. Where do I start? I'd rather go on the experience of others than spend a fortune in shafting.
Thanks,
Chad
Post by: Charlie Lamb on August 26, 2003, 07:55:00 AM
Post by: Rick McGowan on August 26, 2003, 08:55:00 AM
Post by: AkDan on August 27, 2003, 01:57:00 AM
couple other things to look at lam birch (CRINGE), Maple, Hickory, maybe even footing something.
Also there was a method a long time ago I saw once in one of my older books. They drilled out the point end and added weight via a nail. It was mainly to add strength, I'd bet you could really get a heavy set of arrows even heavier and it would be one heckuva way to add a tad more durability not to mention keep your FOC where it needs to be without finding a 250grn head.
Just some ider's Btw, what you planning on hunting you need such an outfit?
Post by: Rick McGowan on August 27, 2003, 09:40:00 AM
Post by: AkDan on August 27, 2003, 02:27:00 PM
I guess the best bet then would be sweetlands compressed. Cant remember whose making it but its on the kenai pennisula of Alaska, somewhere near soldotna I believe. Sitka spruce from what little I had was slightly lighter then cedar so maybe sending them some hickory or ash to try out to compress might be the way to go for a specialty arrow, thats IF they cant get those weights already. Not to mention the durability of them, you can pound them through 1" ply wood and only slightly round the ends off. Their is/was only one problem I am really aware of with them. They, if not sealed good, will swell. Say you nick one shooting I've been told that spot will start swelling. I have tapered some for a couple guys down in anchorage and have to say they were crooked as heck when they arrived here. Not quite sure why but I'd bet that wasnt an issue when they were first made.
Whats Chad plan on hunting with that kind of setup?
Post by: Rick McGowan on August 27, 2003, 02:33:00 PM
Post by: AkDan on August 27, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
I guess the only other thing I could think of would be a glass shaft. I was thinking at one time they spined them and they are definatly waaay up their in weight.
Post by: Troy D. Breeding on August 28, 2003, 09:49:00 AM
Getting that weight in 11/32" isn't really that hard with my hickory shafting. My current shafts are 81-85 spine, barrel tapered and with 160 gr point. They tip the scales at 900+ grains. :bigsmyl:
One thing to remember. When you go that heavy in weight it often takes increasing the spine. My normal spine is 71-75. In arrows under 750 grains I can get by with 71-75 as long as I don't exceed 125gr points. Once the finished arrows exceed 750 I have to increase the spine by 5# to aid in the recovery of the arrow. With 160gr points I find that adding another 5# in spine shoots best. :thumbsup:
Post by: LBR on August 29, 2003, 06:14:00 PM
I'd wondered if it was just me when I discovered that when I went to a really heavy wood (in my case, ash) I had to go up in spine--reckon the extra weight of the arrow acts like a heavier point, or???
Either way, I will be talking to you about them hickory arrows.
Thanks!
Chad
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 31, 2003, 02:08:00 AM
If your committed to wood shafts only then this is a moot point. If not I talked with Ed at Alaska Bowhunting Supply and he informed me about his Grizzlystik arroz that are now out on the market. I believe the heavy version is at 15grs an inch and will go 800grns plus and up to 90lbs or more on bow weight. If you haven't read about them yet you can find more info in the vendors section on this forum. They sound like there tuff as a two bit steak, but also a little spendy I guess you get what you pay.
I haven't shot them myself yet but I'm going to give them try, the lighter version anyway. I've only shot wood arroz as long as I can remember but what the heck it's all cake!
I'll probably post in the pow wow later if anyone out there has some feed back on these new arroz.
Have fun
Out for now
Post by: LBR on August 31, 2003, 11:56:00 AM
Wilson, thanks, and I will be looking for your comments. I am not committed to wood, or any particular material as far as that goes. For something like this, I want to use the best I possibly can. I have the bow picked out, now I just have to figure out the rest of it. I'm in no big hurry just yet, but I need to get all the info that I can.
Chad
Post by: AkDan on August 31, 2003, 05:18:00 PM
The guys I had hoped to hook up with were enroute to a moose and duck camp while I was down their. I have a few sets of arrows and they should be back here in a day or 3 (tues weather permitting). I believe Jack Harrison has something to do with them as far as the $$$ side is concerned and I have someone who knows him quite well whose going to try and hook up with him, thats if he isnt in africa or also gearing up for moose season. Kinda hard to find a hunter in these parts this time of year. I'll keep poking my nose around down their for ya though.
Post by: AkDan on August 31, 2003, 08:49:00 PM
Got a contact for them today. My partner up here (the other "chicken hearted sheep hunter") has a set. They have atleast 2 different grades. The hunter grade is a parrelel compresion. The other grade is a tapered compression. He figures his arrows 28" bop is 800grns with a 160 ribby. At your length and if you were to get the tapered compression, I wouldnt be suprised if you were OVER the 1k mark at a fraction of the cost and at the same amount of durability as any carbon! Btw, I believe the maker of St Croix fly rods is the ones making the grizzly sticks. I do know its a rod maker, just not 100% sure about whose doing it. Eds a great guy but I prefer wood, not to mention the history behind them so if you aint partial this WILL and HAS worked! I have photos of them pounding them through 1" thick ply wood with nothing but a slight rounding of the end (the dowels in the test were cut at a 90degree to the shaft and NOT tapered. The edges are what rounded slightly).
ANyways, here is the info:
Alaska Frontier Archery
Steve Tanner
Nikiski Alaska
907 776-5462
I have some old battle shaft info of the Sweetland era I might be able to get Dawn photo copy for you Chad. Thats if you are interested, shoot me an email and I'll have her get it copyed on tuesday.
Post by: LBR on September 01, 2003, 12:35:00 PM
Chad
Post by: LBR on September 01, 2003, 05:59:00 PM
Fiberglass
Aluminum (loaded with various things, including another aluminum shaft)
Hickory
Compressed wood
Footed POC
Grizzly Sticks
Carbon (loaded)
Anyone know the benefits or lack of with any of these?
Chad
Post by: Rick McGowan on September 01, 2003, 11:36:00 PM
I didn't try fiberglass, solid glass(fish arrows) are very low spine about 55#'s and heavier than I wanted. Hollow glass is hard to find.
Compressed wood, I just couldn't get in the right spine weight.
Hardwood, I couldn't find any suitable shafts when I was developing my buff arrows(five years ago).
Carbon, I could not find a combination of shafts to meet my criteria and no single shaft had enough spine when weighted up.
Footed poc, waaayyy to light and not enough spine in a small diameter.
That left me with a stuffed aluminum, I couldn't find an all aluminum combination that worked, but a carbon 35-55 inside of a 2219, with a weighted tip, flew perfectly, it weighs 960 grains, with an foc of 12%.
I'm still experimenting, but that was the best solution I could find at the time. Rick
Post by: LBR on September 01, 2003, 11:44:00 PM
I may have to start from scratch here--now we got Grizzly Sticks (kinda hate to pay $160 a doz for shafting, but if that is what it takes.....), a friend in AK (Lilhunter) knows of some compressed shafts that may work, Rogue River Archery has footed shafts that will go into the 700+ grain range (23/64 tapered), Troy has tapered hickory, and???? To be honest, I'd love to do it with wood, but I won't let that be the deciding factor. Best shooter wins, regardless of material.
Chad
Post by: AkDan on September 02, 2003, 12:02:00 AM
Another thing you might want to look at...Silent Pond Shafts. Mike does all hardwoods. Not sure but he might be able to conjure up something? He's in tbm. I used to shoot his barrel tapered ash shafts and just might go back for a few more sets till I can get the footing jig made up this winter. Most were impressed with them as everyone has heard the horror stories of how "tough" they are to keep straight. I also think he does other woods for shafts, not quite sure, give him a call.
btw, I'll call tomorrow about those compressed, what spine range are you thinkn yaz monkey arms gonna need? (at 28)
Also they did at one time spine out fiberglass, got some neat old photos of them doing it. Not quite sure what the heaviest they went was. Just some cool history!!!
Post by: Rick McGowan on September 02, 2003, 10:01:00 AM
Monty uses the fish arrows on everything EXCEPT buffalo, with his bow he can get by with very low spine. I shot one of his buffalo arrows ONCE, but I won't shot is again the spine was so low that it nearly came off my bow sideways!
Easy Ed, has tried very hard to come up with a real big game shaft. I have tried a bunch of the earlier trials, but not the new 15 grain per inch version. With the taper they should penetrate very well. Rick
Post by: Randy Cooling on September 02, 2003, 08:07:00 PM
Post by: LBR on September 03, 2003, 09:38:00 PM
Rick, I'm confused here. How does Monty get enough energy? I mean, if he can get away with shooting such a light spine arrow, how hard can it be shooting?
Chad
Post by: AkDan on September 03, 2003, 11:01:00 PM
Post by: Rick McGowan on September 04, 2003, 12:49:00 AM
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on September 04, 2003, 02:54:00 AM
Post by: Blue Monday on September 04, 2003, 07:27:00 AM
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on September 08, 2003, 02:16:00 AM
I thought that story about Frontier Archery in AK sounded familiar. Started in Chehalis, WA that is about an hour and a half from me.
Man I have to admit those are some sweet arroz their putting out up there, I may have to check those out also.
To many variables LBR but that's a good thing, right! :thumbsup:
Hunt wise
Out for now
Post by: Ray Hammond on September 08, 2003, 10:13:00 AM
Post by: Dante on October 15, 2003, 03:03:00 PM
Post by: 2Knives on October 17, 2003, 11:37:00 PM
Post by: 2Knives on October 18, 2003, 12:12:00 AM
Post by: bayoulongbowman on October 18, 2003, 12:30:00 AM
Post by: LBR on October 18, 2003, 12:22:00 PM
I have talked with a few prospective dealers for shafting material. Two of them that deal with wood shafting are way behind on orders, primarily for the extra heavy weight/spine ones--the guy with the Forgewood said he isn't taking any orders right now and to check back in a few months. Got in touch with Ed at ABS, might go that route, but I rather shoot wood if I can. Also found one other that has some really heavy woods, and he is going to send me a sample before long. Arrow Dynamics is still very hush-hush about their new heavy weight carbons. Looked at some other carbons at Bass Pro Shops the other day, and one company (can't remember which one it is) makes theirs so one shaft fits perfectly inside another to make an extra heavy arrow, but the cost winds up being pretty much the same as the Grizzly Sticks, so if I go with carbon I'll most likely go with those--no use adding more work to it.
Bayou, I don't even know of any arrow makers/dealers that aren't American--lol. Doing the best I can to keep several busy too--I buy a lot of wood from US dealers to send to Chek-Mate, and the 4 people there keep a lot of Americans busy keeping them supplied with materials.
Still searching, but getting closer I think!
Chad
Post by: CAHunter on November 25, 2003, 11:59:00 AM
I had a really hard time finding arrows for my 92# Black Widow. I could not, for the life of me, find wooden arrows that would spine out correctly, and believe me, I tried contacting everyone out there that had arrows. I tried Hickory, Ash, Cedar, and have a standing order for Ipe shafts, although I have yet to see any. After about 9 months of trying to find wood shafts I finally ended up going to carbon. But again no carbons were spined high enough for my bow. (This was before the new shafts from the guys in Alaska. I have yet to try them). In order to get ones that were properly spined and of proper weight I ended up placing one carbon (Cabelas SST) shafts inside the other (Vapor Carbons 4000) (that only brought me up to about 600 grains), using tape to center the shaft and get rid of the slop. I then added weight by dropping #9 shot down the center of the shaft and adding laminating epoxy (it is just about as thick as water and can take a few hours to cure) down the shaft to hold the shot together and prevent it from shifting. (A WORD OF CAUTION: The laminating epoxy will ATTACK the epoxy that holds the shafts together. DO NOT use this method to weigh shafts by themselves. You must have an outer shaft for this to work properly). The benefits of this method is that by trying different shafts that I can adjust my spine, I can get all of the shafts to weigh exactly the same, and I get the weight forward in the shaft. The draw back is that it is now costing me about $10.00 per arrow and a few hours of work per dozen. I hope this helps.
Post by: CAHunter on November 25, 2003, 12:03:00 PM
Post by: Rick McGowan on November 25, 2003, 12:34:00 PM
Post by: CAHunter on November 25, 2003, 12:55:00 PM
I have pretty short arms, my arrows are 27" BOP, but I thought LBM might get some ideas from the stuff I went through to find arrows. For my 72# Widow I found some nice Hickory shafts that work well. I still want to try Ipe but you beat me to Troy
!["[laffsmyl]"]("graemlins/laffsmyl.gif" "\"\"")
and Bill at Allegheny Mountain has yet to let me know that he got some in.
Post by: Rick McGowan on November 25, 2003, 06:00:00 PM
Post by: CAHunter on November 25, 2003, 06:33:00 PM
Trying to rip my shoulders apart moslty :D
Getting the heavy limbs was an accident, but I use them for Pigs, Javelina and I hope to one day hunt some of the bigger game with it.
Post by: LBR on November 25, 2003, 11:08:00 PM
Chad
Post by: CAHunter on November 25, 2003, 11:11:00 PM
Post by: LBR on November 26, 2003, 04:44:00 PM
Chad
Post by: Troy D. Breeding on December 03, 2003, 11:27:00 AM
Week before last I reworked one of the cutting heads for my machine. Getting high spined heavy Hickory shouldn't be a problem anymore. :scared: for enough material (not including the time and expence it takes to cut and run the material into shafting) to make a only a dozen shafts I feel most can understand why I said what I did. To get enough shafts so that I can properly match dozens calls for making a pretty large run. I'm finding that I have to run a minimal of 1000 shafts just to start out. Factor in the cost of making 1000 shaft at the above price and the fact that you never know what you are going to get when you make a run of shafting and I think everyone can understand why I'd rather not get into making Ipe shafting.
Take good care of the ones you have Ric......
Post by: CAHunter on December 06, 2003, 06:20:00 PM
I will take you up on that offer.
You have Mail :)
Gary
Post by: Rick McGowan on December 06, 2003, 08:09:00 PM
As soon as I get some time I will wring out those hickories I have in a head to head test with my previous shafts. Rick
Post by: Troy D. Breeding on December 08, 2003, 10:58:00 AM
Limited Edition Collectors Model!!!!!
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe!!!! :D
Now thats what I needed to hear this morning.
Best way to start out the day is with a good laugh!!!!! :thumbsup:
Post by: Chad Sivertsen on December 11, 2003, 09:47:00 AM
I think the best heavy wood shafts I've had experience with is the forgewood from AFA. They are small dia, extremely durable, smooth finish, and well balanced. But, as Rick pointed out, difficult to get in quantity and are not available on a regular basis.
I liked maple fairly well, have tried some hickory but it did not have a very smooth finish which could retard penetration in this situation where that is the ultimate goal. They are heavy and tough. Have not tried any hickory from Troy and will be doing that soon.
Rick, your comment about getting arrows ready at the last minute hit home and I will be working on that well in advance. Panic mode just before a trip to Oz would take a lot of fun out of the trip.
Post by: CAHunter on December 11, 2003, 11:28:00 AM
I also used to have an issue with the finish of the hickory shafts, but I found that I could use wood putty to fill in the voids and the sand them back down. I had originally thought that getting them to weigh within 5 grains of each other was going to be tough (spine doesn’t seem to be an issue), but found that I could adjust them by adding or subtracting an extra layer of Gasket Lacquer. Occasionally I get a flyer, but that one then just gets put into the stumper box. I do try to use the colored stain. I dye the hickory to the color that I want (Hickory is pretty hard to color with the aniline dyes, but I still try :D ) and then go to home depot and find the putty that closely matches. So far I have had some pretty good luck.
Take Care
Gary
Post by: LBR on December 13, 2003, 10:32:00 AM
Chad
Post by: Bowlim on December 13, 2003, 05:00:00 PM
Post by: Troy D. Breeding on December 13, 2003, 07:39:00 PM
Did a quick try the day I reworked the cutter head. Can't really say how much increase they gained. Got called away from the shop before I was able to resand to normal 11/32" dia. Once I get achance to resand the shafts I'll be able to say how much increase in spine they had with the larger dia. Other than that they came out very nice.
Post by: LBR on December 13, 2003, 11:36:00 PM
Chad
Post by: WLThomas IV on December 26, 2003, 12:01:00 AM
Post by: LBR on December 26, 2003, 02:18:00 AM
The Forgewoods seemed ideal at first, until I talked with the owner. I'm not putting myself in a situation where I might need some shafting on short notice and not be able to get any, or have to wait and wait and wait to even get started. Right now I have two sources for a wood shaft that I believe will meet the requirements, and made by folks that I believe will be able to get them to me in a reasonable length of time.
I still have Grizzly Sticks and the carbon inside a carbon to fall back on if I have to. The Grizzly sticks are tempting anyway--I'll just have to decide after I start shooting.
Chad
Post by: lcoast on December 26, 2003, 06:50:00 PM
I think Ocean Spray would probably fill your bill.
Natually tapered or could be barreled. Tough as tough can be. Once straightened they hold up well.
With a bit of care timber cruising they can be cut fairly straight.
Ocean Spray was used as nails in the old days.
=keith=
Post by: crane on February 02, 2004, 05:51:00 PM
Post by: Troy D. Breeding on February 02, 2004, 06:30:00 PM
I've shot afew of the heavy ones and they didn't weigh near that much. More along the lines of 750. If they added something to them it would help. All I know is they are really stiff and it required something around a 250gr head to make them fly for me.
Post by: Jason Oles on February 02, 2004, 06:31:00 PM
I believe there are three different weights now Alaskan, Safari, and the really heavy ones ?
I don't know if they have a seperate name or not. I did have a chance to shoot them at Kazoo. Nice arrows!
Give Ed a call I'm sure he'll fill ya in.
Jason
Post by: crane on February 02, 2004, 06:36:00 PM