Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: LBR on September 17, 2003, 10:47:00 PM
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I saw on one of Rick's posts that they had some problems this last go-around, mainly due to lack of preparation. What were the problems, what do you do to solve them, and what do you do to prepare for a buffalo hunt? It will be a while for me yet, but the way I look at it it's never too early to get started.
Chad
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Well, I have another question--anyone feel free to reply. I was wondering about needing a back-up bow for this hunt. I don't really want to order another, since this will most likely be the only time I have a need for this kind of poundage, but.........
Answers, opinions, or??? :help:
Chad
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Chad, if you start preparing now and treat it seriously like it deserves to be treated, you will have no problem. I have seen hunters prepare less for a buffalo hunt than I would for a week of deer hunting. Tuning and shooting the bow is the main thing, studying bovines is also a good idea. Unless you live on a farm or a ranch, not many Americans are used to the size of buffalo or scrub bulls, it would be a good idea to spend some time watching some big cattle up close.
On my first trip I had someone offer to loan me a backup bow, which I took him up on. If you are there when and where I am, I always take my buff bow and several sets of limbs. If you are taking a takedown bow, a back up set of limbs is always an option. Rick
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Thanks Rick! I am treating this very seriously--although it will be a while yet before I get my bow, I am researching shafting and broadheads all I can. My lady has a pasture bordering her property, with a pretty big bull in it--wonder if my neighbor would mind if I took a few practice shots? Blunts, of course :D (yes, I am kidding) Luckily I live back in the sticks--no problem studying cattle--seen some huge Santa Gertrudis (sp?) bulls around here. Even have a buffalo (bison)park within less than 40 miles that I could visit.
Glad you mentioned the take-down--I was wondering if that would be a good idea for travel purposes? The longbow I am getting is offered in a one-piece or a two-piece td, which won't help with limbs, but might be handy for travel.
If bussiness continues like it has lately, I may be be able to go a little sooner than expected--got my fingers crossed! Either way, I plan on being prepared.
Chad
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Chad, if you ever plan to travel with a bow, get the takedown! I'll never buy another one piece bow. Try stalking that big bull, it may give you a chance to try out your sprinting and tree climbing skills! Rick
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Yes --- Take a back up bow. It is great that Rick has one along - and truth is that these heavy bows shoot a lot more alike than lightweight bows - so using another mans bow is do-able. Some other things: Understand that these hunst are for the most part UNLIKE hunts at home - or even out west. Most bowhunters simply do not spot-n-stalk as amainstay of their hunting - and hunting with Rick in OZ is ALL spot-n-stalk. This is not the place to try a new quiver - or a new routine. I recommend using the exact same equipment on some hog hunts before going. Routines: specifically you need to be ready when called. This means a moment and you are "In" the Land Rover and gone for the day - with all you may need at your fingertips - and at the same time travel light enough to be very mobile. Shooting Practice: For these hunts I begin shooting one year ahead with the heavy limbs. Within a couple a months you should be able to shoot 15 shots out of 65# limbs - switch bows and shoot 15 shots out of 75# limbs then finish with your hunting limbs. I did this daily - ending with 40 shots out of 83# limbs. These are bare practice shafts - that flew like darts. Target is two sets of hay bales 5 feet apart. Arrows generally blew through both sets of bails and bounced off my shed. Shots practiced at 15 - 25 & 35 yards. Rick and Monty have done all the grunt work developing arrows - both share freely and can get you within inches of final tuning - then bullet holing your own shafts. Theres more but this could be endless - main point is to FOCUS and treat like - what it is - a trip of a lifetime!!!
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Cory , I can shoot a 68 pound bow now but only about 10 times ...what else do you do to work up....?? mark#78
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Mark - I shoot 65# normally. For Dangerous game I do have a 75# limds and 83# for my Silvertips. I have several handles. I just went from 65 to 75 - at first only for a few shots. Then when I could draw and hold and release smoothly I went to finishing sessions with the 83's. I am in lousy shape - should work out - but I don't and never have. I can feel it when I do this and I need to pay attention - and most of all I need to shoot daily - when I skip a day because I am swammped at work or whatever - my shoulder aches inside (?) so I actually feel better when I shoot every day. Andrew Mackay (Australian Outfitters) and Rick McGowen were very patient with me and never held me back from practice. I would shoot 25 shots out of 65# limbs in the yard in the morning - and shoot judoes every other hour all day - just a few shots each time out of the 83's. We all always knew I was ready. It was a good feeling - and lead to much confidence for us as a team.
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Cory, thanks for the input! I'm going to try and set this thing up so I can go when Rick is around. Going to be a while yet, but I think that is a good thing--will give me plenty of time to practice and prepare. The bow I have on order is 85@30, and I have found several shaft options that will (hopefully) keep me from having to go through so much trial and error getting weight up and finding the right spine.
You are right on the spot and stalk--never done it, can't see it happening on the whitetail here. Dang things are tough enough from a blind or treestand, and it's impossible (for me at least) to ease through the woods here without leaves/twigs/etc. making noise. I do have an OR elk hunt planned for next year that should give me some experience though (a little is better than none I reckon). Learned plenty about low-crawling and sprinting from dear 'ol Uncle Sam--been a while, but some things you just don't forget! Going to try and get on some hogs also--we have them in the area (within 20 miles or so anyway), but getting permission to hunt them hasn't panned out yet. Landowners like to hunt hogs themselves! Going to talk with a game warden I know, see if he can give me any leads--bound to be someone around that hates them and don't hunt them.
I shoot tournaments with 66# now, and have been for several years. Before that, I was shooting 82#. I have a 98@28 flatbow that I can shoot accurately for a dozen or so shots, so I don't think the bow weight will be a problem. I do have to start making time to practice--right now, other than tournaments, I don't average practicing once a month. I can, and will, do better on that though. Right now I am averaging around 8 points per target (5-8-10 scoring), and I know I could do better with practice.
So far I plan on testing tapered hickory and forgewood shafting, and want to see how durable Ribtek, Ace, and Grizzly broadheads are. I know that the Grizzley have been proven more than once, but I'm not worth a crap at sharpening them--that bothers me. Any suggestions on other shafts or broadheads to try out? I looked at the Grizzly Sticks, but don't see paying the price for them, and rather use wood if I can.
I was wondering if ya'll tried putting together a target that could simulate what you will have to shoot through on a buff--maybe some heavy leather (couple layers), a sheet of 3/4" plywood, 12" or so of dense foam, and another layer of plywood? Or am I getting carried away here? I figure if my set-up with go through that, I got it whipped.
One last thing that concerns me is constructing a target that will simulate the size of one of these critters. I know at tournaments that the larger targets (buffalo, elk, moose, etc.) can fool you and look closer than they are. Got any suggestions, other than putting out $500 for one of these big targets?
I feel like a newbie asking what bow and arrows I should start with--sure appreciate ya'lls patience and sharing your knowlege.
Chad
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Cory covered it very well. He was very prepared when he got there and it showed. Those big animals definately look closer than they are, thats one of the reasons for studying them ahead of time. The first buff that I shot at (twice), I thought was about 25 yards, it was actually 34! Cory also did some practicing at night and kept the local hogs very nervous. Rick
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Cory, what arrow/broadhead did you use, what kind of speed were you getting, and how good was your penetration? How long was your shot?
Chad
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For a Broadhead other than Grizzly - I like the STOS (nubbed) - then add bird shot to weight. Mine worked great - I had Grizzlies too - which of course are Proven heads in this situation. Arrows - Shoot Ricks - I did. I can understand guys wanting to use wood - and hey I shoot a lot of wood myself - but on this trip you are talking 3 dozen minimum - I would take more next time - arrows - that would take a whole lot of sorting through to get enough shafts to make a consistent batch. Remember there are lots of Donkeys and OZ is the best hog hunting on the planet. I was thoroughly pleased with my 2219 stuffed with the heavy gold tips - 300 grain heads. This is Rick's recipe - you need to paper tune for your own individual length. Arrow Speed - I have NO clue. Penetration: Other than what is described on my practice sessions post - Buffalo - first shot (which is the most important one) - up to the fletch - Full Rib hit / back of the chest. Rick, Andrew and Mike are great buffalo hunters - and the best woodsman / guys in and out of the field. Monty sent me a picture and a note before I went that said this is "a must do hunt" - I agree !!!
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Cory , whats the lightest weight bow you would use in oz for the buffalo ..and hogs...thanks,Mark#78....I have to do this
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Mark I probably wouldn't go with less than 80 in a high performance recurve like a silvertip or widow. 90 in a longbow. I am using 90 # limbs when I go for cape buffalo. Some of my friends say 70# is enough "IF" everything goes perfectly. I don't count on "IF's". All that said it is the arrow that is most important - ours are 970 grains to 1400 grains - and of course we are on the same page with broadheads.
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PS (Hogs) --- sorry didn't see your hog question until I re-read. I think 65# is plenty for big hogs - and if you are like me you will have a light bow anyway for warn up. Now I hunt with the heavy limbs - but hunting hogs in and around camp I took the light bow with 2219's tipped with woodsmans - this was a lot cheaper than throwing buffalo arrows around - and the hogs in camp are smaller - mostly 150 and under - where as in the bush they are all big - 150 and up. I never saw a little one ????????????????
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I always hesitate to recommend a "minimum" weight and it is the first question everyone asks. The reason I hesitate is that as Cory said, things seldom go perfect, so a minimum weight for perfect conditions, may be to light for everything else. For some reason human beings like to stretch limits, so if I say 70#'s is the minimum, someone is going to think, well if is 70#'s is good 65#'s ought to be good too! A lot depends on your arrows, heads and tuning, also obviously on how well you shoot, how well you stalk and on LUCK, but don't count on any luck, most of it belongs to buffalo.
Cory is right about the pigs, there are small ones, but some real monsters as well. The biggest boar I have ever seen anywhere was right next to the stockyards by the ranch buildings and he is seen regularly. He is about 350#'s and if he hasn't broken off his tusks, I'd say they will be a good 12"! We had one taken this year that was no where near as big and it had 9.5" teeth. This isn't the best place in Australia for numbers of hogs, but they are there and it may be the best place for buffalo. Rick
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Cory, not trying to open a can of worms here, but what do you consider "high performance"--not brands, but actual performance? I'm averaging approximately 187 fps with arrows that weigh just under 10 grains per lb (and I have an awful release).
Chad
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Chad , what kind of bow are you shooting? the cursader? what poundage? Just curious..mark#78
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Yep--I shoot the Crusader (is there anything else?) :D 66", [email protected]. The 64" seemed to be a bit faster, and just as smooth, but for some reason I like the 66" better. I have a take-down version coming for the buffalo hunt. It's a two piece, and aside from a little more mass weight it shoots and feels like the one-piece.
Chad
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Chad , My bow @ 53# shoots my cedars at 189 fps..carbons 193....I draw 27 inches...its 68 inch bow...125 gr point ....mark.....I have a new 58 pounder Im going to test...and Im going to shoot a 65# recurve Sat. just to test drive...
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Chad - "high performance" - by that I mean bows you are describing - bows pushing 200 fps with regular arrows -- specificall I am looking for Bows capable of shooting heavy arrows - pretty quick. I reference Silvertips because it has been my experience that these bows have a power stroke and limb width that is very desireable for shooting heavy arrows (over 10 gr per #) - Widows shoot well also - but I have had best results with them shooting arrows in the 8 to 10 gr per pound category. There are many very good bows out there I am sure - might even perform as well in these circumstances we describe here - I just don't have experience with those personally. I like longbows and actually hunt with longbows more often than my recurves - but generally I shoot even heavier arrows (pound to pound) than out of my silvertips. Exception is my Robertson Stykbow - it is awesome and shoots a relatively 'light' full length 2020 with a 125 head perfectly - quick and totally quiet. Lately I have been shooting a silvertip longbow and it is best compared to recurves - the power stroke from my 70# shoots harder than my 65# recurve. Very quick and quiet. Speed: I can't really say - I don't shoot through chronographs - nothing against it - just never needed it. I get a comfortable weight bow to shoot and then tune arrows to that bow - considering arrow weight - tune bare shaft - then tune for silence - bow or arrow adjustments.
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Thanks Cory--"high-performance" is just a term that gets thrown around too much I guess, without any real parameters to define it.
Bayou, what did the arrows weigh? My cedars weigh 620-640 grains, give or take--just a hair under 10 grains per lb of bow weight. A bud of mine got up to 232 fps with Gold Tips off his Crusader, but they were unweighted. He draws 29" and was pulling approximately 63lbs.
What kind of bow are you shooting Bayou?? I haven't seen any recurves that get that kind of speed with a 27" draw except shooting really light arrows. I know a guy that has a 32" draw and was barely getting over 200 fps with a Black Widow recurve, shooting 7-8 grains per lb if I remember correctly. A Habu he shot was a little slower, a Palmer a little faster, and a Chek-Mate Hunter II was the same (as the BW).
Chad
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Chad, I have LIghting Longbow ....right now I shoot american arrow dynamics....trad.lites...yeah ur arrow heavier..Id rather heavy arrow amd broadhead too.....thanks , Mark#78
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Another question--what kind of quiver do you perfer for this type hunting? I hate bow quivers, but if I have to use one, I will get used to it.
Chad
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My advice is learn to like the bow quiver. I don't really like them either, but they have less disadvantages than anything else. Back and hip quiver have ruined several stalks, just because they stick up to high on a crawl, also they take to much time to put on, some times you need to go NOW! One guy jumped out of the truck to go after a BIG boar hog and missed with his first shot and his only shot since he left his back quiver in the truck. Pig never new he was shot at. I highly recommend a second source of arrows though, since bow quivers just don't hold enough. Something you can hand to the ph on the final part of the stalk, so you will have extra ammo nearby!!!!!!!!!
Rick
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I like Catqivers. I like them for all of my hunting - but especially for spot-n-stalk - which is the majority my hunting. Plenty of arrows - concealed fletch - and out of the way till needed. Rick does make excellent points though - and bow quivers are the most handy - but Rick has a very steady shooting hand with the bow quiver on his bow - very few other people do - and I know I don't when the bow quiver has arrows running at 1000 grains. Shots (1 in 8 for me) tend to roll to the left ) I am a right handed shooter). Rick also shoots blue fletch which is an excellent color for hunting. They can generally fly under the radar in most game shot situations - yet are easier to find than natural or camo colors. He has better eyes than me though and I am shooting these technicolor fletches that basically super bright. I need to keep them out of sight. Snagging on brush has happened - but it is slight for me and a trade off I can deal with. Extra Arrows: Yes you must have back up. A plastic arrow box will do. I used a simmons quiver for back up arrows - excellent - but the price is way to high - try and make some maybe. I own a Glenn St. Charles quiver which I am using instead of putting on the wall. It holds more arrows properly than my catquiver. Very light also.
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I have basically the same problem with a bow quiver Cory--makes my bow feel really awkward to me. I'm built all wrong for a Catquiver also (tried one last year). I'm a pretty big guy, and the Catquiver is just too narrow. I do have two St. Charles quivers, but man do I hate to use either one of them! Both are limited edition (#77 and #79 of 100 or less), signed and numbered by Mr. St. Charles. One was used very little, the other only had arrows displayed in it. I guess if I have to, I will try one of those. I like the Simmons tube quiver, but I thought it was a little pricey for what it is also. Maybe I will trade one up before long.
Thanks again for the input--man, I as anxious as I am now, by the time I get to go I will be a nervous wreck!
Chad
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Here's my suggestion. Everything in the outback really takes a beating, so if you have something that you want to keep in mint condition, leave it home! I would get a good lightweight bowquiver like the Great Northern and make up a tube of backup arrows. I used a section of 3" pvc DVS(drain, vent and sewer) pipe and two end caps. Glue one end on and cut a piece of foam for the inside at each end. Make a carrying strap from nylon web. Either paint it camo or use camo tape. This will hold and protect about 5-6 arrows in the back of the 4X4 and can be carried along on stalks. Personally I don't care for the Catquivers, they seem to squeek whenever they get dusty and there is a LOT of dust in OZ. Cory was fortunate he didn't have to crawl much on stalks, but almost bowhunters can count on it. This year I crawled on my belly about 20 yards, after a huge old bull. A back quiver would have stuck up way to high. Crawling with a bow is tough enough, carrying anything else makes it nearly impossible. Sometimes no matter how many arrows you have with you, you will wish you had more. Cory asked me why I brought so many arrows, a few days later he said,"oh, I see"! Rick
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Rick, what do you think about this one? Numbers 5 & 6 on this page.
http://www.stickbow.com/lonewolf/quivers.html
Chad
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Hey Chad, I use to use a hip quiver, but gave it up because everytime a bent over to go through some brush it would catch up the fletchings on anything higher than my back. Also we had one buff hunter that used one and he blew one stalk when an old cow keyed right in on the fletchings sticking up over his back as he crawled. Also I don't think that this one holds enough arrows(4) for Australia. As Andrew says for buffalo, 6 is minimum 8 is better! Rick
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I have been hunting with a CatQuiver 'Mini' by Rancho Safari and have really come to like it. It is a small St Charles type quiver of metal/plastic with fleece fabric covering it completely, and it can attach to the daypack or fanny pack they sell...you can view it at http://www.ranchosafari.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RS&Category_Code=CQ
It will hold six arrows with big feathers and broadheads on it..the thing that I like about it is this-
I use it for hogs in South Carolina where we stalk them in clearcuts that have had pines planted in them..so you hunt it a lot like a corn field...crossing rows, look both ways...you know...when you get on them in there...its sometimes as many as 20 to 30 of them and the landowner wants them OUT..so we try to take as many as we can...and the 5 arrows I put in my bowquiver could turn into not enough in those situations.
The mini, when hooked to my day pack, stays low and out of the way if i am sliding through brush, but handy right behind my rear end to pull the broadhead end of the shaft out with my right hand-it keeps the fletch dry, which in South Carolina its usually raining or just stopped, or in the mornings its dew-y as all get out..98% humidity and all..
Or I can use it without the day pack..I put it over my left shoulder, so the bottom is sticking right by my right butt cheek slanted up toward my left shoulder..its not in the way if i have to belly crawl becuase i worked ont he strap and made it so I can tighten it up till it stays EXACTLY where I want it, low so it doesn't grab brush when i duck down,and it works like a champ.
At 46 bucks its not a pocket book killer either, if you bang it up, tear it up...and have to replace it.
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I'm having a blast reading all this good info! Chad, I can't wait to read about your hunt. You're taking a video camera right? How about writing it up and sending it to Traditional Bowhunter magazine!
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Man, the anticipation is killing me--I got to settle down some, or I'll have an ulcer before I get to go. Gonna' be quite a while yet, but at least I get some condolance by looking into gear, buying a new bow, etc. I hope to take a camera with me, for sure. Dunno about an article--besides being a nobody, I'm not too big on stuff like that.
You might want to look into going too--it's gonna' take me quite a while to get the cash and gear together--start saving your pennies now!
Chad
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What outfitter you going with? Do they have a web site? I'm just wondering what the cost would be. Thanks
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www.australianoutfitters.com.au (http://www.australianoutfitters.com.au)
Not "cheap", but I think it's a lot better deal than Africa if you want to chase really big game. After the initial cost, you can go for scrub bull at a reasonable price, or minor species (dingo, donkey, and hogs) for free.
Chad
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One of the best parts of the Aussie prices is that you bring your capes, horns etc. home with you as checked baggage. That can easily save you a $1,000 as compared to Africa and you have a much better chance of getting the right stuff, in good condition. It can take well over a year to get stuff back from Africa. Also none of the animals were "free" over there. Also a lot of addons to the prices in Africa that you don't find out about until the add every thing up at the end. Rick