Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: beachbowhunter on December 20, 2005, 01:49:00 PM
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Not sure if you guys think black bears qualify as dangerous game, but I need some help. I'm trying to book a spring hunt in western Canada for 2006. There are a lot of sites online, but I would like to find one with a good recommendation that is archery friendly. Any suggestions? Warnings?
Thanks a million,
Norbert
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Norbert
I've hunted with Ryk Visscher in Alberta the last two years.Plenty of bears with a good number of color phase bears.
Bob
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I forgot the link http://ryk.ca/
Bob
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Bob,
Thanks for the link. There's not much info on his website so I guess I'll give him a call. I assume by going twice that you liked it. Any info you could share?
Thanks,
Norbert
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Norbert,
Just sent you an email with some contact stuff (was actually intending on posting the info...hey, guess I've got Xmas on the brain). In case it didn't go through I suggest Carpenter's Clearwater Lodge www.carpenterslodge.com (http://www.carpenterslodge.com) email: [email protected] 204.624.5467 (Doug Sangster owner/guide). Just got my 2006 hunt info today...members of the family have been hunting/fishing with these folks for 40yrs & haven't been disapointed.
BJ
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Norbert
If you have any questions just ask.I'll do my best to answer them.
Bob
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Sent you an e-mail
Merry Christmas,
Charles
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Charles, I got it, thanks. You should have a reply. Now we're talking! I've got some good leads here and need to see if there are any openings left!
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Norbert,I have send you an email.
Merry Chrismas
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Look up Jason Lambley - Lambleys hunts from the heart in Manitoba. Jason and hid family are from Nebraska and are no stangers in the Trad world. A great guy and has some fine huntin.
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Mountain Creek Outfitters in Saskatchewan. I went last spring with a friend that deer hunts up there every year. Last year was his first full year for bear. Hanz has over 250,000 acres so no problem with finding game. My buddy took a cinammon his second day. I took a 20 3/8" brute my fifth day. 22nd bear I saw from that stand in 3 days. I hunted another stand for 2 days for a real monster that never showed. And the best part, Hanz is a bowhunter himself.
http://www.mtncrkoutfitters.ca/
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Thanks guys. Looks like we will be going with Ryk Visschers of Edmonton. He could shift his schedule to accommodate us and seems to be a great guy and very active in bowhunting. His hunts are over 90% archery which makes me feel better. Also, one of his friends/staffers is a confirmed trad bowhunter too. It's a long way off, but hopefully I can update this thread with some good info in June!
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Now, here's a question I'm SURE you've never heard...any suggestions on broadheads? Some say 3 blades are better for bears because of the damage and because they are not extremely thick skinned like a hog. I've had good sucess with hogs using 2blade Stingers but would be open to using a 3blade if there is good reason. I'll be shooting a 58 - 60lb recurve and carbon shafts (most likely), 10 gr per lb.
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Good for you! I am sure you will have a fantastic time hunting bear in AB.
As to your broad head selection, I can only reccommend to have them fly good and sharp. Bears will not go far with a double lung hit. I had them go from two steps to 40 steps and that was it. If they went further then it was not a double lung hit and I had to use my tracking dogs.
All the best :thumbsup:
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I've had complete pass throughs on all my chest hit black bears with 2 blades (Magnus 125 gr with 100 gr weighted adaptors) from a 49# longbow. I'm sure the 3 blades would open a bigger hole but some of our group use compounds with 3 blades that did not pass through..Jeff
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Norb...I don't think it matters if it's a 3 blade hole or 4 blade hole, but strongly suggest a multiblade for bear.
For you it would be as simple as using the 4 blade Stinger... very little would change for ya.
The Stinger "bleeder" is pretty small and won't hamper penetration, but it's plenty big to help the wound "gap" open. :thumbsup:
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Second the multiple blade for Bears. Double lung, they won't go over 100 yds. I use 3 blade, of 4 Bears I've shot furthest went 80yds.
Be patient and wait for the perfect shot. Give yourself time to calm down.
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thanks guys. Charlie, you got me thinking about the Stingers with bleeders. I like the looks of the Simmons Razorsharks too. They are very similar to the Stinger with its chisel tip but it has the characteristic curve to the main blade. Simmons are supposed to cut a big hole. Has anyone tried the Razorsharks?
Gun, thanks for the PM, sent you an emai.
Norb
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I like wensel woodsmans, they are not quite as big as snuffers but they penetrate as good as any two blade in my opinion. Plus they leave a hole(smaller than a snuffer but still a wound that does not plug or seal like a slit.
Getting a passthrough is important with bear, but it doesnt mean youll find blood, sometimes they bleed internal. That said a double lung or heart shot and they dont go far. One lung or lung and liver and you can have a serious tracking job. I cant say it enough but really study the location of there vitals, I was hunting last spring and the camp I was at had 8 wounded bears for 20+ hunters. Most were actually gun but it made me sick, just not hitting the vitals. An inch off with a bear is the diffrence between seeing him fall from your stand or tracking for hours.
I shot a selfbow , plain jane , at fifty pounds and have got complete pass throughs through bear with woodsmans, heavy arrow is probably more important.
They are extremely easy to get scary sharp and fly like darts too.
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I shot my bear this past season with a Woodsman and would recommend them. I got a pass through with a 53 pound recurve and 625 grain arrows. After 15 yards the blood was heavy for another 25 or 30 yards to the bear.
The two bear before that were two blades and with a quartering angle hit the off shoulder and did not pass through. Very little blood trail.
Stan
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I've had less than stellar results with Snuffers and they are hard to sharpen (for me). I need more practice with three blades before I could get comfortable. Hearing about passthrus with multi-blade heads is comforting. I hunt hogs mostly, and you hardly ever see a passthru, even with wheelie-launched arrows.
I rummaged through my stuff and found some Magnus II 4 blade 125 grain heads. New in the pack. Forgot I had them. What do you guys think of these? I love the 2 blade version.
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Don't try to corralate what you see the wheelie folks do with good trad gear, they make a lot of poor choices. I second, third, and fourth using 3-4 blade heads. WW's are an excellent choice (bob the tips however) as are Snuffers. Work with the Snuffers, once you figure out the sharpening tricks, they are very easy to get a shaving edge. Most bears I've shot with Snuffers, blood trail and tracking is a moot point, they go down in sight.......O.L.
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i would suggest either the american broadhead liberty or the sonic if you want a 3 blade or if you want a 4 blade then the magnus stingers both will work. but i don't know what your shooting yourself but i am sure if you have broadheads already they will work for you
rob k
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Hi Norbert,
I am a guide for a few different outfitters here in Manitoba, and the bear population in the areas I guide in are realy high. I just want to recomend you do your homework in looking for an outfitter, I hate to say it but there are some bad outfitters out there.And my broadhead of choice is a bear broadhead with bleeder blades.If you need any information or have any questions feel free to e-mail or call.You can visit my web site at
Take care Darren
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What O.L. said.
3 blades minimum for good blood trails and maximum cutting.
Bears have thick hair but thin skin. The only thing I've found easier to penetrate is a caribou..
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thanks Biggie, et. al., I'm definitely on the multi blade bandwagon on this one. Now I need to choose! I'm going to get some WW/Snuffer sharpening lessons from Mr. Lamb in a couple of months. If I dont fail the final, I might pick one of them...
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My son and I have used the Magnus 2 blade 125 gr on bears (I took a 18 6/16 and david a 21 9/16) -- both used Chekmate recurves(mine at 51# and david at 49 #) We recently switched to the 145 gr 4 blade Magnus on the recommendations of a couple of friends who have hunted extensively and use the argument "would you rather have a deeper slit or a slightly shallower hole" for penetration. Bears are notorious for their ability to take a good shot and leave no blood for tracking.I shot a 20 10/16 with the set up this spring and it worked GREAT. Heavy arrow (585 gr @ 31" and 51#)
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By the way, you'll have a GREAT time hunting with Ryk. Known him for years and is heavily involved with the bowhunting "scene". His stories and personality are worth the trip alone!!!
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Albertan,
Thanks for the info and vote of confidence in Ryk. He came recommened by a fellow TradGanger and I've really enjoyed talking to him. He gave me the name of a retired friend of his who often helps in camp who is a "trad bowhunting nut" according to Ryk. I havent called him yet but I will. Cant wait!
I've picked up some 4-blade Stingers that I will be using in March for Javalina. They are supposed to have similar traits when it comes to blood. Not as big or tough of course, but with luck I'll get some experience with a 4-blade. Is it May yet!!!!!????
Really looking forward to the visit to Alberta. Never been there. Ryk also does moose and deer. This could be just the beginning...
thanks
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I would opt for a 2-blade head. Jumper drove a 2-blade completely through a 350 pound blackie last year and except for a 8" spruce on the opposite side, would have had a pass through. I have shot a few animals with Magnus Stingers, great head. For the stick bow this year I am using 145 grain, 2-blade Bears. I have never experienced a non-pass through shot with a compound except....for a guy using a Rocket expandable. Then he hit the opposite shoulder square on the T part of the scapula. A bad hit no matter what you use. Bears are easy to kill, a good quality 2-blade head should do you well.
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Use a three blade. Try montecs if your using a carbon shaft. You will love the reslts.
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Just got back from the Texas Sweat and I was very happy with the performance of the Stinger 4 blade. Of course a javalina is not a bear, but a complete passthrough - the long way - and another broadside in the blink of an eye has me really impressed with the Stinger. Even Charlie Lamb was surprised. I put a two blade through a big sow hog last December. I think what I like best about these so far is the flight. They fly better than any broadhead that I've tried so far. Might give the 150 grain version a try.
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I am suprised by the replies. To clarify, I have never shot a black bear so I can offer no practical input but the Dr. Ashby reports and most of the other posts on this site about broadhead preference seem to favor 2 blade heads for many reasons. So, why the difference in response in terms of black bears?
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Northwoods, the testing Dr. Ashby has done is very good and relavent when absolute penetration is the goal. On black bears and deer, which I am guessing, amount to probably 95% of what people hunt, penetration is not really an issue. A lot of bear hunting is done in very thick cover and you would be better served with a bigger hole leaveing a better blood trail. Fall bears also have a layer of fat which causes sparse bloodtrails without big holes. If you are planning on hunting real big critters 2 blade heads are the way to go. With bears and deer there is a lot of leeway in trading off holesize compared to penetration. Joseph
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Thanks Joseph. Yes, if I were shooting a lighter bow/arrow and was worried about penetration I would probably stick with a 2blade and hope for a short trail. I will always use 2blades on hogs regardless of the weight of bow/arrow I shoot.
I just picked up some Razorcaps for my bear hunt. I got lots of feedback from 3-blade proponents and I will take their advice. Being sharpening challenged on 3 blades, I chose the Razorcaps!
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Good choice!
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Frank,
Yes it was. They worked great. I got a complete pass through, going through ribs and the sternum and the blade was perfect. A few swipes with my crock stick and it was back in my quiver. I am very impressed with Razorcaps.
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Yeah,
wasnt the blood trail excelent? Good three blades make a surprizingly good hole.
NICE BEAR MAN!
it gets exciting when you see that guy coming into your stand. Or in your case... up it lol.
Enjoy that bear meat. Its excelent.
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Thanks Frank! I see you and your Dad had some fun this spring. Congrats! Way to go! Someday I will get up to AK for some REAL bowhunting LOL!
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If you mean real as in spending more money and getting bit by more bugs I guess so lol.
I love Alaska and could never leave.
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I have gotten complete passthroughs on bear with my WW's and my 61# Border recurve. Didn't even need a bloodtrail as I saw the bear barely make it to cover 30yards away before it crashed and let out a loud death moan!
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I was going to use a #56 Dan Toelke Whip longbow next year on a bear hunt and was planning to use 145 gr. grizzly or older bear broadhead on a adapter, I thought that I made a good choice, after reading all of your guys stuff I do not know if I am making the best of choice for my broadhead, even though a bleeder blade could be added to my bear broadhead I was not going to mess with it because I did not want to slow the arrow down when it in the bear, I was shootin' for a complete pass through.
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Chris, I only have one bear under my belt, but I dont think penetration will be a problem with your bow weight, assuming you dont use a real light arrow. I would go with a three blade - razorcap, WW, or Snuffer SS.
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just use a sharp ww snuffer or razorcap and make a good hit you wont have a problem.
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I used a 61# bow and 545gr arrows. Why would I need a heavier arrow and why "bob the tips?" I noticed the tip was bent a little but I got a complete pass through and pulled the arrow out of the ground.
Thanks
Steve
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I have real doubts that my choice in bow weight would be a problem. If #56 was to light that would elimate a lot of people to be able to shoot bears with a recurve or longbow. We hear all the time people using #45-#50 all the time.
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As others have said, knowledge of anatomy is really important. Here is what I learned after killing and butchering a 194 lb bear last year:
1. The ribs are round in cross-section. They are about the diameter of thin pinky finger or thick pencil. In contrast, deer and elk ribs are flat but about the same thickness. Thus, there is more room between ribs on a bear, and the ribs are easier to break/cut.
2. The vitals are more forward than on a deer/elk. Keep your arrow tight behind the shoulder.
3. Bear's shoulders are very movable and not connected to the body by anything but muscle. A hit by an arrow will almost NEVER penetrate because the shoulder structures absorb the energy.
4. When you get the skin and fat off of a bear, you will be amazed at the small size of the bones and muscle structure. This means that the target is significantly smaller than it looks.
5. Bears use a ton of oxygen to fuel their muscles, but they have a lot of lung capacity. This is why they go down so quickly with double lung hits and go so long with single lung hits.
I shot mine with a 125 gr. screw-on snuffer from a 600gr arrow. I got 10" of penetration into the ground on the other side. The bear went 20 yards, and the blood trail was OK, but took 15 yards to start. Next time I'll be using a 160gr snuffer for a larger hole.
Hope this helps!
Brett
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I think that I am changing my head choice to an STOS, I have shot this head in my yard and have been able to resharpen it very easily.
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I have shot razorcaps for the last 3 years and I will never buy another pack of them. Great head for penetration but very very weak. Every deer I have shot with them has either broken the welds on the head or broken the ferrull. Deadly results but at $10.00 bucks a pop I can't justify it. I will be shooting WW's this year. My practice heads actually broke as well, and that is shooting them into a block target!!
In my opinion and experience these are a one shot wonder head!!!!
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Chris, a 3 bladed Snuffer cannot be beat. They are tough as nails and very easy to sharpen. Bears are thin skinned but have heavy coats. I believe 45#s will kill most any blackie with good shot placement and provide a pass thru as long as ya do not hit shoulder, just have the nastiest sharpest bh going. Shawn
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I've shot a whitetail and a bear with Razorcaps and had no structural problems. Arrow in the dirt the other side.
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Question; Broadhead for Black Bears....
Answer: A Real sharp one....
sorry Norb couldn't help myself...
hope to see ya at the shoot this weekend. Mark
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Maybe I'll get a chance to use my sharp wit on you this Sunday :smileystooges:
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Very interesting...I drew a Michigan tag this fall and will be using my Savannah for this trip. I have only been shooting traditional gear for about 5 months and have been doing well. Maybe in my mind it's well but with almost 25 years of shooting I can learn quickly.
No I have been trying to nail down an arrow/broadhead for a while. I have some Beman Classics MFX 500 with 125 grain heads (460 grains total) and POC with 125 gr heads (500 grains total) and 2117 with 145 gr heads (565 grains total).
Broadheads I'm considering with the wood and Aluminum Woodsman's and with the Carbon either a Montec or NAP Hellrazor. I even like the Grizzly heads for the POC's.
Problem is that all three arrows fly to the same point so I don't know what to use. I like the wood but the carbons are tough. So I'm still deciding.
My bow is the Martin Savannah 50@ 28” that I draw to just short of 30”. I have a Kota Kill’um on order that is going to be 47 @ 29”. We’ll have to see how that one shoots!!!
Josh
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I used a 580 grain arrow with carbon shaft and 125 grain Razorcap for my bear and it was devastating. However, I was shooting a 58# bow. I would lean toward teh Beman or the 2117 set ups. I think both would penetrate better than a 500 grain POC shaft.
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Originally posted by beachbowhunter:
I used a 580 grain arrow with carbon shaft and 125 grain Razorcap for my bear and it was devastating. However, I was shooting a 58# bow. I would lean toward teh Beman or the 2117 set ups. I think both would penetrate better than a 500 grain POC shaft.
What carbon shaft did you use to get 580 grains? Did you tube it?
Josh
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Carbon Express Terminator Hunter 45-60, cut to 29.5", 100 grain brass insert, 125 grain Razorcap, cap wrap and 3 5" shield feathers. Total weight was 580 on the button. These would be too stiff for your bow but I bet you could use the CE Heritage 150s, they spine slightly stiffer than the Beman 500s so you could put 200 - 250 grains or so on the end.
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hey,Norbie.good to see you around the place again!