Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: Ron Chambers on December 25, 2006, 03:04:00 PM
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What is the minimum bow poundage for buffs in Oz? Seems I am getting all kinds of answers. It would seem that bow performance with a given arrow would be more critical than the poundage on a bow?
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Ron, from memory, here's what some have used (approximately):
Monty Browning - 90#
Denny Sturgis - 90#
Dale Karch - 70#
Don Thomas - 78#
Don's mate Rosie - 78#
Corey Mattson - 84#
Rick McGowan - 85#
Bill Baker - 68#
Ed Schlief - 66#
Rik Hinton - 75#
John Teitzel - 68#
There are many more who have successfully hunted buffalo. The most common seem to be mid-70s to low-80s.
One US hunter got some bad press in our Sporting Shooter magazine, because even though he got a one arrow kill, the buffalo made three kilometres before expiring; they found it the next day. He used a 65# bow, but messed up by using a 3-blade head; sounds like a one-lung hit, and it was on an immature bull.
Similarly, my immature bull was put down with one arrow from my 63# Martin Hunter; the arrow was too light, but I was using a 2-blade head. Still, I was lucky that I destroyed the heart, and the buffalo only ran about 60 yards before dropping. Penetration-wise, if I hadn't hit the heart, it would've only been a single-lung hit.
The moral of the story is to err on the side of heaviness, both with arrow weight and draw weight, and make sure you use a 2-blade head.
Cheers, and I hope you nail one someday! Ben
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/4.jpg)
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As Ben said Ron go towards the heavy end. I've never hunted them but know first hand mates that have. I've also talked to guides and outfitters about the same subject. In a nut shell, a sharp BH in the spot, heavy tuned arrows and a heavy draw will do the trick.
G'day Ben, hope the Chrissy hols are looking after you mate. Good reply to the thread too. We must catch up in 07. Must be some critters need dusten... somewhere!
Here is a link you might been keen on...
http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=040196
I think 75# @ 30" would do the trick...
Happy new year, al
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Ron, everyone bases their opinion on their own experience or what they have heard and of course both of those things vary widely. The size and condition of buffalo varies a LOT also. We had one hunter who knew he couldn't shoot a bow over 64#'s so he chose to make a very careful shot on a young bull and got a passthrough. I've also seen shots from bows in the 90# range that didn't make it through the ribs. The most important thing is shot placement. Use a perfectly tuned HEAVY arrow and a strong 3-1, two blade head. Almost all of the hunters that I have had personal experience with have used bows in the 75-85# range, I don't recall any of them saying they would use a lighter bow if they came back, BUT a lot of them said they WOULD use a heavier bow WHEN they came back. So take that for whatever its worth.
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What weight arrows are guys using? How are they weighting the skinny carbons. I shoot the SST's and see where some have used them for buff. How do they get the weight up?
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Don't mean to hijack your thread Ron, but I was curious what kind of draw weight you guys would look for in a 26" draw for buff? How much more weight should I go for? Thanks, Matt
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IN my experience 800 grains would be the absolute minimum weight for the arrow, 900 is better. Mine weigh 970. The highest weight I have been able to get any of the skinny carbons up to and fly right at my draw and #'s has been 700 grains, thats why I don't use them. If you are shooting lower #'s or shorter draw you might get them to work for you. Getting them heavy is easy, getting them to fly right when weighted is the hard part. Monty used lead solder in his, but they weighed 1500 grains!
Matt, thats really hard to answer, its easier to say that you should be using as much as you can shoot accurately under pressure.
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Ron try to read the thread "Buff bow" and the Ashby reports also.That would give you an idea of what is needed as minimum - and also some of the other factors that is also very important (thickness of shaft, arrowweight, type of broadhead, percentage of FOC, how well the arrow is tuned and so on) when seeking penetration. Talking bowweight alone doesn't give a clue since there can be an enormous difference between some bows. Just try to think about a straight limbed longbow versus Black Swan/Adcock CX/DAS with Samick extreme limbs. In some instances it takes between 15-20 pounds more on the less efficient designs to give the same performance. So what really counts is what speed are you getting with what weight of arrow. From my memory I think Ashby mention 140 fps with 850 grains to be the absolute minimum needed - more is of course better. I get way more than that with my DAS (read the other thread I mentioned above) at only 65#.
I go to Darwin after buff with that setup in June next year so I hope I will "live to tell" about it afterwards !! (LOL)
Torben
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read the das threads. excellent information provided by all, especially on buff hunting.
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My wife and I are going for OZ Buff in July. Doing arrow weighting, matching, and bow selection. She's pulling 69# with a Hummingbird longbow and a BW PLV longbow. Mine are 75#.
Just got new safari grizzlystik arrows to fly well from her bow finally (3 - 20 gr weights behind the insert), still some work to get the bare shafts proper. Karen's Hummingbird is shooting a 1031 gr 32" Safari at 136 fps at her 29" draw for a KE of 42, at .62 slug feet. Black Widow just about the same. OL Adcock is building us heavy ACS CX limbs to replace the ones the dog ate, but that's another story.
Lots of weight FOC, with a 75 gr insert, 125 gr adapter, 60 grains of weights, and a 160 gr head (STOS).
Think that'll do for Buffalo? Course, either of us could outrun the arrow, but maybe we'll get a slow buffalo. :-) Amazing how these heavy arrows hit a bag target and go through it. - Jay Campbell, JD
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/aerohawk1/2006-Aug-2.jpg)
Jay, who are you hunting with? I went over last summer with Barefoot Billy Bob Baker and Bad Arse Brad Kane (and Rik Hinton, Doug Chase and Bruce Drewes)and had almost too much fun.
Rik shot woodies, but Doug and Bruce used the skinny carbons from Cabelas that were like the old Easton pultruded arrows, while I used the Axis carbons. They all were well up in weight, mine being 850 grains, with nearly 500 grains just on the front. I used a Robertson Overdrive that pulls about 71 lbs. at my 30 1/2 draw, and it would smoke the heavy arrows. Can't remember the numbers, but it was faster than Rik's 75# HH longbow. I think Doug used the STOS, and he got some unsharpened and put a single bevel on them that went with the rotation of his feathers. His arrows were sticking out the far side of both of his buff, with a 66# DAS curve.
BTW, if your wife is shooting a 69# longbow, you probably better not whine about her cooking. Could be a whooping coming.
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Hey Mark: No question the Mrs. (Karen) is pulling more weight to 29" with her Hummingbird and BW longbows than any woman I've heard of, but I'm sure there's someone out there. 20 years of being a 3rd degree black belt will do that, I guess. I just say "Yes Ma'm, can I have another?". :-)
We're going with Don and Lori Thomas and Bill Baker. Any advice gratefully accepted. - Jay Campbell, JD
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Mark U I have a few questions since I'm going to Darwin this June with my DAS (similar set up as Doug) after Buff at Andrew Mackays place.
Have you any idea how they got those SST arrows stiff enough with that high FOC and relative low spine ? I have a hard time finding anything stiff enough (65#28,75" Samick Exteme limbs). I use Beman Max4 with a skinny carbon on the inside (kids arrow to increase spine)- but with app. 400 grains out front they are a tad weak bareshafted.
Please tell about your setup with the Axis (I guess spine 300 ?).How did you get 850 grains and what tuning method did you use (bareshaft, paper or ?). What broadhead and how much penetration did you get ?
Last : Any idea how/where Doug got those Stos without any grinding/sharpening done on them ?
Thanks - Torben
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Torben: I am finding the Grizzlystik safaris to be extremely stiff at the full 32 3/4", even with over 400 gr up front. With your set up (we have a few Adcock ACS CXs, which should be similar) I would think they will work very well, especially if you want them more around the 29" range. Expensive, though. - Jay Campbell, JD
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Thanks Jay
I have been giving them some thought and I'm sure they are tough and well made even considering the price. But my only "worry" is their very big frontal area. I understand they are a full 11/32 in the front end (can you please measure yours and tell if that is right ?) which is a lot more than the Max4 or Axis in spine 300. I haven't shot buff yet myself (and I know some have been succesfull with Grizzlysticks) but reading Ashbys report I suspect the thickness of the shaft is a big factor in penetration.
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Hey Torben: I measure the shaft itself at a full 3/8" O.D. (a tad larger than the insert face). I agree that shaft diameter is important in penetration. But, shaft weight is also important. We have these at 1032 grains easily, and the momentum calculation seems impressive at .62 slg. ft. I keep in mind that lots of the folks shooting buff are using wood shafts (Ipe and Purpleheart), including Don Thomas, and getting about 1000 grns, and I suspect those shafts are 23/64th. Tradeoffs in every direction. Rick McGowan has tremendous experience in this area, he may be able to weigh in. - Jay Campbell, JD
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/aerohawk1/P8110088.jpg)
This is Doug checking out the front third of his arrow that was on the ground after the buff broke it off. This buff went 19 steps after the shot. The middle third was lodged in the heart.
Torben, I think he just called STOS and asked for the broadheads unsharpened. I used the axis 300's and went with a 125 grain steel broadhead adapter, then took two brass 100 grain inserts, tapped one for 8/32 threads and connected the two together with a brass screw. Also used a big grizzly for the buff and penetration was to the offside ribs. Bareshaft tuned my arrows out to 30 yards, and they flew great. FOC was something like 27% or more. I think Doug and Bruce used steel allthread rod to get the SST's heavy on the front.
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G'day Jay, I'm looking forward to having you and Karen in our Buff camp this year and I can tell you Mrs Campbell won't be getting any tip from me hey! LOL.
I was a little concerned about Karen's bow weight but now I'm sleeping just fine at night, no bad Buffalo dreams.
Hey Mark, good to see you here and good info. Yeh, Rick just wanted to kill his with wood, he was pretty happy about that hey!
Torben I was standing beside Ed Schlief when he shot his Buffalo with one of his " Grizzly Stiks"
out of his 66lb longbow.
The arrow entered just slightly forward of the centre of the shoulder and exitted the off side where the neck meets the shoulder. I think it was a "Safari" shaft and it was a "Silverflame" broadhead.
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Since you guys are talking about heavy arrows, you should re-read Dr. Ashby's report, especially the part about arrow breakage upon impact. Dense, heavy wood shafts (ipe, Forgewood, etc.) significantly outperform carbon and aluminum when it comes to not breaking upon impact with a heavy buffalo rib.
That's one of the reasons I was comfortable using heavy wood shafts when hunting Mellville Island with Bill. The trick is to get narrow diameter wood shafts that are close to or over 900 grains and ULTRA-STRAIGHT.
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I am going to hunting with Bill this summer and am now trying to figure out what kind of arrows to use. I am looking for something in the 900 grain range. Any tips will be appreciated.
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Hey Ron---Here's a tip from Rik:
Start doing some hiking around your place barefooted. Toughening up your feet to Australian standards will serve you well when you're sneaking in on your bull.
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Ron, is that you JR?
Rik is right. Go barefoot over all the rough country you can find for a month before you go over. Most of those Oz guys (and gals) evidently grew up without shoes and think nothing of a five mile hike in the scrub barefoot. With the soil conditions over there, it's not too bad, but I tried it elk hunting when I got back, and it hurt.
And Rik's arrows looked like broomsticks with a bird on the end.
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Bill (Basalt):
Good to hear from you. We're having a little trouble getting the airpot hotel in Darwin to get back to us, but I'll increase efforts next week.
Karen has taken over my Hummingbird, and is drawing it to 29" at 74#, easily. I don't even try to explain it anymore. We're going to OL's tomorrow to pick up new limbs for her ACS CX at 70# @ 29". OL may get another heavier ACS in my hands, but I have a BW PLX at 81# coming in a couple of weeks. Hopefully this report on her bow weight will keep you sleeping well. She's hitting what she aims at, too.
As to heavy arrows. I've worked quite a bit with Grizzlystick Alaskans and Safaris, and getting them over 1000 gr is a snap. I like them.
But I'm now working with a relatively little known shaft, the Gold Tip Big Game 100+. Stiffness is between the Alaskan and Safaris, it seems. Rick McGowan told me about these. You can find them in camo or black, pre-fletched with feathers, on at least one internet archery supplier. Using 3 Gold TIp 50 grain weights from Black Widow, and the full length shaft inserts plus Tip adaptors (125 gr) and 160 grain heads from 3 Rivers archery, we quickly assembled these arrows at full length (which is what we shoot), achieving 1032 grains and perfect arrow bare shaft flight from both a 74# Hummingbird and a 76# Morrison longbow. 143 fps. At only about $115 for the entire dozen arrows, and at 5/16" shaft diameter, I'm pretty impressed.
We'll likely have to stiffen them up for OL's ACS bow, but we'll see. Awful easy and inexpensive way to get heavy, small diameter buffalo arrows. - Jay and Karen Campbell
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Yep it is me. J.R. want to know what kind of arrows I should be shooting. I am going to use a 75 lb bow. Shooting small carbons now SST's from cabela's. Need to the weight up. Any tips or info will help
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Jay, It looks like I will be hunting with you and Karen according to Bill and Linda. I am looking forward to it. J.R.
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J.R., I'll get the specs from Doug on what he used to get his SST's loaded up. He really likes those arrows. What broadhead are you going to use?
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G'day guys, yeh Mark you're right there, not many of us Northern Ozzie kids ever owned shoes or boots until we had to wear them at high school, come to think of it, I still don't own too many pairs. Linda makes me wear them when we go to town.LOL.
G'day Mark, Yeh those Buff have big ears and know how to use them, lucky that ground's soft up there on that Island yeh mate!
Bring thick socks guys they will save your feet a bit.
Yes Doug's arrows sure flew very nice out of his bow, with plenty of forward weight but Rik's flew nice too, even with that bird sitting on the end.
Jay all sounds very good and heavy small diameter is the go for sure.
No worries I'm now sleeping like a baby.
Just let me know if you have trouble with the Airport Resort and maybe I can sort it out for you from this end.
I'm a believer in the 3:1 Broadhead but I have seen other strong single blade Broadheads work just fine.
They MUST be dry shaving sharp with no burr and I like to lube the head and first 10 inches of shaft.
I'll have the gear in camp to achieve that whatever head you choise.
J.R. sounds like you guys will all have your gear sorted out well in advance.
If you have an arrow weight of 800 or better coming out of your bow with GOOD bare shaft arrow flight and something like a Grizzly up the front it will all be good.
The one thing I try and stress to everyone is ARROW PLACEMENT.
That and the fact that the front leg MUST be forward will more offten than not decide the outcome.
You should have plenty of opportunity to study Buff before you have to draw on one.
Cheers from Down-under,
Bill.
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Hey Billy Bob! How's the weather down there in Tully Head? Is the path heading over across the street still mowed?
This picture shows some of us getting ready for an excursion to the cape. That would be Bill in the middle, in his backyard.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/aerohawk1/2006-Aug-3.jpg)
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Mark, havn't decided on a broadhead yet. Maybe grizzly or zwickey. Let me know about the arrows
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Hey Bill! Did I tell you guys I shot a buffalo? LOL!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/internetbuffgroup.jpg)
"Give 'im another one mate!"
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For some reason I don't think thats a bowhunting magazine Bill's reaching for!
That's a good pic too Denny. You still have a few arrows left in your quiver though!
al
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Denny, is that the "Old bull by the Sea"? I think I heard the story about it every day for a week from Bill, and also found the skull when we were down by the beach. Something about Linda sitting in the shade when this bull walked up to her, and it was so old even it's pension was worn out. It kept turning around whenever an arrow hit it until it dropped.
And Alan, you may be right about the magazine. It was one of those "subscribers only" editions of a popular Oz mag.
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Hey Denny, that thing looks like a pin cushion. LOL. J.R.
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G'day guys,
yeh that's about the only time I saw that
"Australian Wild Bird" magazine. I think Rik or Mark had it hidden under their pillow studying that rare Australian Bird, the "Double-breasted Mattress Thrasher".
Hey Denny, how could I ever forget that one LOL.
The second " give him another one" might have been a bit of an overkill on my part mate but there's nothing like a two step recovery I reckon.
He was dead on his feet after the first shot we just didn't tell him!
Hey Al, you know the call " when in doubt, empty out" and heck Denny still had plenty left in that quiver.
Mark, that was Denny's buff head under the tree but the huge one that came out looking at Linda sitting under his favourite tree is still there, just waiting for Denny,Don,J.R. and the crew.
Denny, that Shark Dale almost shot should be a big bigger this year hey LOL.
Cheers guys,
Bill.
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G'day Bill,
I can't tell you how pleased I am with the information I'm gleaning from the hunters taking buff with you. Doug sent me all the pics and detailed info from his buffs and Rik's (as did Ed). It was astounding the correlation between the results they had and what the study data predicts should be the outcome penetration using their setups. From the folks I've talked with on this current Stateside trip, I think you'll soon be having a few more coming and using setups along the study's guidelines. That gives more study crosschecks for me!
I still think Vasaline isn't the best 'extra lube' to use though. The idea of using something that's a coagulant just don't seem right. I'm still experimenting on that one. I think that you might want to try KY Jelly as an alternative to Vasaline. Just be darn sure the 'better half' KNOWS that you have it on hand for ARROW PENETRATION, and not some other type of 'penetration'! (LOL!!!!!)
I'm headed to Africa tomorrow morning to visit a friend for a few weeks, then I'm back to Oz in late March, and heading right up to the Territory for some more buff work. Hope we cross pathes again soon.
Ed
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G'day Ed, good to hear from you!
I only just back and I guess you are on your way to Africa by now and might not see this for awhile.
We look like having a fairly busy season on the Buff, mostly Traditional bowhunters and a few compound hunters.
We have had a great bunch of guys over the past few years.
I'll be only too happy to pass on any info on the results.
Yeh Ed I agree with your thinking on the water based lubricant and plan to give it a try this year.
We start guiding on the Buff in June and hope we can catch up again in Brisbane or the Territory.
Cheers mate,
Bill.
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Ya'll just have the coolest accents. Just take care of my ladyfriends Karen Campbell and Lori Thomas while they're there. Not too concerned about their ugly husbands :-)
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Alligatordond: You should have seen us in Queensland the night Bill Baker's and Brad Kane's wives had us trying to teach them to speak "American." It was simply impossible. I just about laughed me arse off though!
Them thar Ausssies talk funny!
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Rik ,
I can only imagine. Just send those guys down here for a bit and we'll have them sounding like Larry the Cable Guy, who I understand is from around here.
Someday I may head way south and give the buffs a try. For now it is vicarious living through my friends.
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Alligatordond: The ladies like Lori always seem to be easy to look after.
Mrs Campbell is shooting a 74lb longbow, that lady will have the most polite guides on earth. LOL.
It's Uncle Don I worry about, always wants to sneak off fishing in the waterhole with the 16 foot Croc in it !LOL.
I think Uncle Don and his lovely wife are headed down your way as we speak?
G'day Rik, Yeh guys, we had a real nice southern Bowhunter in the Buff camp a couple of years back. [ Greg Campbell] It took me three days to work out what he was saying hey !
After only three weeks we had Rik and the boys talking real "fair- dinkum" Aussie.
Ed, I'm happy to report that I found some of that water based arrow lube but the only one they had GLOWS GREEN in the dark.
That's got to be GOOD ! LOL.
Cheers guys,
Bill.
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Bill, Don and Lori will be here Tuesday I believe for a little fishing and maybe a hog hunt. We are hooking up with Jay and Karen at our hunting camp to watch Jay dig a new septic tank. It's a character builder for the Buff hunt :-) Karen needs no such remedial efforts. Just gotta keep Lori after the coons, armadillos and possums. It's fun to watch her make Don cape them. I can't wait to see him skin a big armadillo, or a small one for that matter.
I'm hoping to make your acquaintance someday, be it your turf or mine.
DonD
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Bill, Ron, Don D.:
Heading to hunting camp in Florida tomorrow. My new 80# Black Widow Longbow came, and it's shooting great out of the box. It is also shooting the same arrows, at the same energy, as Karen's Adcock 67# Longbow, which she draws to 29" for 70#. Amazing.
We have Gold Tips flying perfectly at 680 gr, with 21% FOC. We can also get them flying good with shaft inserts at 800 gr, 13% FOC. But otherwise we're maxed out on spine unless we can get an insert to increase weight without decreasing dynamic spine.
No problem getting the Safaris to 1000 gr and good FOC, we're just looking at the shaft diameter issue, and wanting the 5/16" shaft if we can get it. Plus, the Gold Tips are incredibly tough in our New MExico rock filled yard. - Jay Campbell, JD
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See ya in a day or 2 Jay
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Hey all you Buff folks, here's where we are with our (I hope final) buffalo hunting arrow set up:
A Gold Tip Big Game 100 with a 1516 Easton "jazz" aluminum full length shaft inside, which fits tight. 70 grains of weight, aluminum insert, 125 gr steel broadhead adaptor, 160 grain head, (STOS Broadhead). Finished arrow weight - 892 grains. FOC - 16.5%. Arrow speed - 158 FPS out of both Karen's Adcock (70# at her 29" draw), and my 80# Black Widow PLX. Arrow flight is just a dart with Broadheads, Bare shafts, and Fletched shafts hitting together.
Hope that will do, we're going pig hunting on our lease with Don Davis tomorrow in Florida. All advice and comment welcome. - Jay and Karen Campbell
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So Jay my money is on Karen! :) :thumbsup: sounds like a awesome set up...hope you share more ...I love the stories you write on bowhunting bud! :thumbsup:
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Jay, sounds like that setup would be just fine. Dr. Ed likes the extreme FOC setups, which we had with the carbons, but Rik's wood arrows did just as well and I don't think the FOC on them was very much.
Now, as far as "fair-dinkum" Oz speak. The letter "R" seems to be optional at all times. The city of Cairns, to most people, would be "C a i R n s", with an R. They say "CANS", like in beer cans. Same with "Thusday", a day of the week. Then they stick the "R" in arse, a in a few more words I can't remember.
Truth be known, after three weeks the two Oz boys were speaking pretty good American, seeing as how they were outnumbered four to two.
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Jay that arrow setup sounds just fine to me.
Good luck on the hogs down South.
G'day Mark yeh I think you've almost got the hang of things while you guys were here. You all picked up on how to drink good Ozzie beer fairly quick and that's the main thing!
I'm trying out your 300 Axis arrows you left me and after taking one of the brass weigh sections out of the front they fly very nice out of my 69lb Robertson.
Don D. I was just wondering if you have any Skunks down your way that Lori might be able to get Uncle Don to cape ?!
I hope I get the chance to catch up with you one day around a campfire or over a cold Ozzie beer. Don and Lori have told me that you are quite a character.
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Bill, Don and Lori just left with no game to ship to MT. Great fun was had by all. No skunks were seen but some left their " sign". Could've been Don T after a few beers though. We shot with Jay and Karen, no need to have any worries about the lovely Mrs. Campbell. That is one dedicated lady and she is in top form already.
Jay "pocket pig" Campbell did shoot a monster 300 lb hog with the buff arrow . Complete pass thru even on the follow up shot-Jay said it charged him. Karen said Jay was squealing like a pig during the charge. Jay insists it was the pig doing the squealing. I'm sure there will be nightmares. Doggone scale must have been off a bit and read it as only 30 lbs . Jay held it up by one hand and declared it to be 300 so I guess that makes it the official weight .
Come visit our camp "Brokeback Slough Dinner and Hunt Club" someday. No buffs here but we do have a disco ball(Jay's idea)for Saturday nights.
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Great fun in FLA, especially as the Widow Campbell and I were there alone for a few days of hunting. And chasing animals. The pig was taken by moonlight, with the buff arrow at 910 grains barely slowing on it's way into the duff. Lost forever. Pig was down in a couple of steps. 32 pounds even. Bar B Q in the freezer, waiting for the next trip in April. Now I'm looking for a Mackenzie Buffalo target, to get Karen practice on the BIG animals. Me, I see them all big, even the 30 pounders. - Jay C.
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I enjoyed this read:
http://africanhuntinginfo.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=379
just wanted to share
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I must disagree with Mark on a point; we certainly don't say the "r" in "arse"! It comes out sounding like "ahse". I hope this helps! As for "ass", well, they're commonly called "donkeys" over here, and with five million of the buggers (said without the "r" sound) running around the country feral, we try to knock them over with our bows whenever we can.