Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: Ron Chambers on December 28, 2006, 11:51:00 AM
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First of all I do not want anyone to take this as a slam on DAS bows. As a matter of fact it is just the opposite. I am going to be doing some buff hunting in OZ and Africa. I am hearing I need a 75 to 90 lb bow to hunt buff. I am also hearing that I can shoot a DAS bow 15-20 lbs lighter and get the same performance with a given arrow. If this is the case this will set a new standard for bow building. With all of the bowmakers out there it is hard to believe that this design hasn't been tried before. I think this will also put a damper on a lot of bow buiding business's . Why would a guy buy a bow when he can get a bow 15 lbs ligher with the same performance. Maybe I am missing something here and again this is not meant to be a slam on DAS bows. My next question is how do I get one. I want to shoot 65 lbs for buff instead of 80-90.
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Let's take a step to the side.
When you mention hunting things that can stomp you, what I infer is that you seek penetration comparable to heavier draw weight bow from lighter draw weight.
Using information from the Ashby files, it looks as though you can create arrows whose penetration will exceed arrows available as recently as five years ago by significant amount.
Rather than parrot Ashby, a summary of enhancements would include:
- 3:1 ratio single-blade broadheads; cut-on-contact tanto point; single bevel; non-replaceable blades; HRc 50-52.
- Tapering carbon shaft; insert-shaft joint diameter less than ferrule; extreme forward of center weight distribution; total arrow weight at least 650 grains.
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Using super penetrating arrows is not the same thing as using a bow that achieves enhanced energy management. But the result, as I interpret your query, is comparable.
Hope this helps.
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Don't forget arrow flight. Some bows are easier to tune the arrow too and the DAS with a cushion plunger rest would certainly fall in that category. Get a super heavy arrow with skinny attributes like the Easton Axis or Beman MFX, proper point like the Grizzly/Magnus/STOS and high FOC and get that all flying absolutely perfectly straight and you'll have penetration that matches up with or betters a much heavier bow, less than perfect (but good) flight with a fat wood arrow shaft. That would include using a high performance string too.
Also, keep in mind the stuff you may have previously saw about a DAS on big game might have been an individual with a 31" draw. Some say an inch of draw in the power stroke is like adding 5# of bow weight. If roughly true, 31" @ 65# is like 80# @ 28 inch draw. Anyway, there are a lot of factors besides bow weight that need considering.
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I would think bow poundage is bow poundage. I don't know physics but 65 lbs at 28 inch should be like 65 lbs at 31 inch. The limbs are still getting stressed to 65 lbs. I would think that there would be a point of diminishing returns on arrow weight. Would I get better penetration shooting an 1800 grain arrow as opposed to a 900 grain arrow? Back to my original question. Am I reading that the DAS bow will shoot an arrow faster than bows 15-20 pounds heavier using the same weight arrows. I am questioning the bow not the arrows. Most people talk about needing 75-90 lb bows and never mention the performance of the bow. If is is possible to get better performance from a bow weighing 20 lbs lighter then sign me up.
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Ron,
There is a difference. Crossbows with their short power stroke are built in the 150-175# range for a reason. The english archers of the Middle Ages shot with anchor points back by their ears to get as long of draw as possible.
If you look at a force draw curve of two bows of identical make drawing 65# at 28" and the other at 31", there will be more "area" or energy stored in the one with the 31" draw. That equates to more performance available to go into the arrow.
As far as DAS shooting an arrow faster than bows 15-20 heavier??? Maybe, but go back to the first post. A DAS, properly tuned will shoot an arrow better than bow B that is not properly tuned. I'd tend to want to see the results done by someone like Blacky Schwartz does on his site where everything from bow to bow is done within more scientific parameters than to infer from others individual results that may be far from apples to apples.
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Ray has most of it pinned down. You also have to remember that the limbs on the DAS are ILF and many millions of dollars have gone into developing them. Olympic style archery is huge business in most of the world especially with so many other places not allowing archery hunting. In Kores it is a national past-time and their Olympic results reflect this. Comparing those limbs to most made by the small bowyer shops we have and yes even Black Widow is small in comparison is a stretch because of the money invested in material and R&D by Hoyt, KAP, W&W etc. The ILF limbs are very efficient.
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I think there will still be fellows asking the other bowyers for heavy buffalo bows, simply because different bows will always have an appeal to different people.
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Ron, think of power stroke this way, it isn't just how hard the string pushes on the arrow, but how long, the longer the power stroke the more time the arrow has to accelerate.
There is no point of diminishing returns as to arrow weight and penetration, there is a point of not being practical anymore. An 1800 grain arrows penetration would be awesome if it was flying well, the problem is tradjectory, if you can't hit anything with it, the penetration won't do you much good.
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Ron the difference of 15-20 pounds I mentioned is comparing a "slow design" to a very fast. If you compare to a more average performing bow the difference of course isn't as big but still important imo. For some reason the Samick Extreme limbs on my DAS shoots very heavy arrows (850-900 grains) way faster than other bows I have tried.That also includes the WinEx limbs on my DAS riser (very good at light and medium arrowweights). I have shot Black Widow bows with great results for many years and love these bows.
But shooting my BW SA (new model) side by side to the DAS the widow is app. 7-8 fps slower shooting hunting arrows in the 550-65o grain range. Now here comes the interesting part : going to the very heavy arrows for buff (850 grains or more) the speed difference grows to app. 13-14 fps !! Thats something like 7-10 pounds of drawweight and you got to remember that the widow has very good performance.
The speed I'm quoting on the "Buff bow" thread was exactly what David (the maker of the DAS)told me I would get at my specific drawlength and drawweight. Then only differnce was he used a shooting machine with release and I shot the bow with fingers giving the "usual" difference of 5 fps on that account (slower with fingers).
I must confess i didn't believe the numbers he gave me back then (I didn't know him yet!)untill I tried it myself.
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O.K I will buy your argument about longer draw weight because I do not know enough about it. I don't know anything about Olympic shooting either. Don't care to. I am just trying to find a bow to buff hunt with. If I can take a DAS bow at 65 lbs and have it outperform a bow at 80 lbs shooting the same weight arrow then obviously that is what I want. Where can I buy one of these bows.
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3 Rivers sells the Dala, Not sure about the Weight though.
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You need to get a Custom from DAS KInetics to get the bow with limbs over 60#. Or you can buy a Dalaa and hunt for heavier limbs which can be hard to find.
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I heard that they are not making anymore custom bows. I hear that the bowyer was backlogged so he quit taking order.
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He is logged until July next year so he is still taking orders for now. Be aware you have to pay for everything up front.
You can have a Dalaa in a month though.
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My hunt is in June, that won't work.
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I hunted buffalo in Australia this August. One of my hunting partners (Doug Chase) used a DAS, lighter in weight than my longbow to kill two mature bull buffalo.
We chronographed the heck out of that bow and mine before the hunt, with arrows weighing from 800 to just under 1,000 grains. My bow is deadly and you couldn't pry it out of my hands, I heart-shot two Australian bulls with it (watch for the article in Bowhunter Magazine in 2007), but the speeds---and even more importantly---the arrow energy the DAS produced were simply amazing.
I've owned the best longbows on the market, all in heavy weights, and I've made at least 30 bows myself. My conclusion is that a DAS produces such incredible energy for the weight because of the foam core used in the limbs, in conjunction with the limb angles David designed into his one-of-a-kind riser. The same bow with limbs that have a heavier wood or bamboo core would not perform as well.
If you are going to hunt buffalo, do yourself a favor and buy the best DAS you can afford. You will be smiling as much and as widely as my hunting partner. Yes, I killed two bulls with my 75-pound Howard Hill, but they were absolutely perfect heart shots. If something goes the least bit awry with the shot, which is more than likely with Australian buffalo, you will be well advised to have the hardest hitting bow you can. That, in my opinion, is a DAS.
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Correction to my post above. I said Doug's bulls were "mature." Actually, they were huge monsters. (Luckiest danged guy I've ever seen!)
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I've got a custom set of Hoyt Kinetic Carbon/wood ILF limbs...factory camo in excellent shape...#62@28 on a "25 inch riser...on the DAS...
Well, you're taling about the BADDEST DANGEROUS GAME BOW ever created...
If anyone is interested in the limbs shoot me a PM and we can chat...I'm going to list them or put them on Ebay soon to fill the ultra heavy DAS limb gap...
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PM Sent Cutty...
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Rik, What was the poundage of Doug's bow and what was the arrow weight?
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http://kineticbows.com/gallery/Safari-Room
Hey Ron, that is a link to the pics in the DAS "Safari-Room". Doug's pics are right there on the first page. The poundage was 66# (don't know the draw length) and 850 grain arrow for two and a 935 for another.
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Think about shooting a pig Boar H_O-G-G...with DAS...wow!!!!!!!!
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I feel I need to add my 2 cents here. I am not a buff hunter and never will be. But about a year an a half ago my wife told me she wanted to hunt...and she wanted to start off killing a black bear. (Long story here). So I decided that since she only shot a bow in the mid forties at her 26"draw length I needed to find the best performing recurve I could find. It so happened that there was a lot of chatter on some website about the new DAS bow (anoher long story here) so I decided, after talking to Dave Soza, that he seemed to know what he was talking about and ordered her the bow. It was about 50# when we got it (too much for her) but the thing actually out shot my 66-69# recurves...all top shooters. After some fooling around with her draw weight we settled on 46# and a 500 grain Beman MFX shaft (total arrow weight) and she shot completely thru a mature black bear that first season. I also own a DAS bow, 60#, and in my 55 years of shooting feel that it is the best performing hunting bow I have ever shot. It is fast, quiet and extremely accurate. If I were to become a buff hunter then the DAS would be going with me, as is, with some heavier arrows than I currently shoot. I don't know all the physics of how the bow does what it does, but it does. What Doug Chase did with his on the buff hunt just can't be argued with, unless there is another agenda going on. It's the best damned hunting bow on the market.
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Ron,
You still need to be aware that a heavier arrow will provide greater momentum downrange matched up with ANY bow...so adding arrow weight WILL improve penetration..and that is what you are asking about, I believe.
Those discussing it above were offering you information that would assist with whatever bow you end up taking..DAS or otherwise.
Think of it as a free lunch- whatever bow you select, if you ADD arrow weight its LIKE adding poundage to the limbs.
You do not have to double arrow weight to see the benefit, either. In speaking with Ed Ashby on Saturday morning it was apparent that there is a threshold of between 625 and 650 grains that once reached and beyond bone BREAKING and penetration occurs with a great deal more frequency, especially with double tanto tipped grizzly's.
Weights of 650 to 850 are what I regularly shoot and complete penetration of hog shoulders is a regular thing with arrows of these weights-obviously you would NOT shoot for shoulders on larger game like elk, moose, or buffalo, but you have a much greater chance of getting through enough arrow to do lethal damage to a critter that big than one would below that 625 threshhold if an error is made and you place the arrow where it will hit those bones.
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I'm not a DAS hater or basher but it seems the more DAS bows are talked about the more rumors and unrealistic claims grow.
A DAS with W&W WinEx limbs will not shoot hunting weight arrows much if any faster than a comparable weight high quality custom bow like a FF Silvertip, ACS CX, Centaur double carbon, Black Swan, Palmer double carbon Morrison Cheyenne or a couple of other fast bows. WinEx limbs will pull much smoother than the average wood core limb bow and will shoot light weight 6 gpi carbons better but who hunts with arrows that light?
For those who think this statement is BS ask David or better yet do some chronographing and side by side comparrisons for yourself.
The DAS is a great bow with tremendous adjustability and tunability but to claim that it shoots faster than comparable custom recurve bows 15-20 lbs heavier simply is not true.
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Hey Ghostman,
You are right on the money and I say that as a new DAS owner. I bought the DAS because I wanted a high performance bow and all the other brands you listed had a year or longer wait. Now the DAS does blow my Hoyt Tiburon away however after converting the Hoyt to DAS ILF limbs there isn't that much difference. The real advantage of the DAS is the tunibility that I don't see in the other bows. You can still get to the same place but it will cost you a few dozen arrows finding the right solution.
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Kinda what I thought. I will build a bow for the hunt and add weight to my arrows.
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Don't get hung up on bow draw weight, or even the specific bow you prefer to use. There are too many much more important factors. For the last several years I've been using arrow impact momentum as the reference point for the studies. Bow efficiency differs greatly, and your draw length (the power stroke) is an important factor in how much momentum you will get with a given bow/arrow setup. I have a short draw (27") and need a heavier draw AT A GIVEN BOW'S EFFICIENCY LEVEL to get the same momentum with the exact same arrow as someone with a longer draw. Having said that, there is no such thing as too much bow for truly big game, regardless of your draw length. Use all the bow you CAN HANDLE.
The second point is that it is the arrow which actually does the killing. By using an arrow of high penetration potential you can get more terminal performance (outcome penetration) from a lighter draw bow than you will from a much heavier draw bow OF THE SAME EFFICIENCY using an arrow with poor penetration potential. That's why the study data is set up as it is. If you maxamize arrow performance from a given bow you can chronograph your setup, calculate the momentum, and get a fair idea of the likely outcome penetration under verious scenarios.
With a given bow, a heavier arrow will always show higher momentum than a light arrow of equal physical dimensions. Use as much arrow mass as you can while maintaining trajectory adequate for the ranges you shoot. The study does clearly indicate the presence of a heavy bone threshold, and it's wise to maintain arrow mass to at least 650 grains, just in case of a heavy bone hit. But also remember that arrow mass is just one arrow penetration factor. At any given level of arrow mass, a lot of other things can be done to increase penetration potential.
Every early test indicates that FOC is going to turn out to be a major penetration factor, and I hope to have a lot more information on THE DEGREE of its effect after this year's testing. One of the FOC test I have planned is with extreme FOC arrows from a light bow. This is using a recurve with adjustable poundage, from 40 to 55 pounds. I'm just curious what penetration I can get with the best arrow I can devise from such bow weights on a buff. Should be interesting.
A bow is just the launching platform. It's the arrow that must perform, and more terminal performance can be gained through arrow design than through bow weight or performance. In testing, poorly designed arrows kill terminal performance. A poorly designed arrow won't even get through a buff's ribs with regularity, even when driven from a compound at 325 fps, putting out 94 ft.-lbs. of kinetic energy and .70 slug-feet/sec. of momentum!
Ed
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Ghostman are you referring to my post on page 1 in this thread ? If you are please explain which part you don't believe.
Torben (TCJ)
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I own Black Widows and a DAS Custom with WinX limbs, most of my bows are in the mid 50's in bow weight. I cannot see any appreciable difference in bow performance in my Widows and DAS, as far as speed is concerned. Obviously the DAS has more adjustability to obtain perfect arrow flight. I've never had any problem getting perfect arrow flight out of my Widows though either and I'm talking bare shafting, even with broadheads on. The perceived advantage of the DAS is getting perfect arrow flight which will always increase penetration. The DAS is a very stable shooter however, and very accurate. I believe I can shoot tighter groups with my DAS. Here's my opinion why. The DAS limbs have less recurve than the Widows and hence seem to have less shock or jump upon release. The DAS WinX limbs achieve similar speed to the Widows because the limbs are constructed of foam and carbon, no wood laminations thus making the limbs lighter in physical weight. Will a DAS outperform a 15lb. heavier Widow, I don't think it would even come close assuming you are able to tune your Widow to shoot your bare shaft arrows perfectly with broadheads on. With todays carbon arrows and all the weight adjustments you can make on those carbon arrows this has never been a problem for me. I can get fletched field points, bare shaft field points, and bare shaft broadheads all to fly to the same grouping without any waver in flight. That's what you need to achieve. Now perhaps for some people that is easier to do with the great adjustablilty of the DAS.
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Dr Ed,
Have you done any research on a small diameter shaft vs. a larger diameter shaft for penetration? As a shooter of Beman and Axis shafts I believe they penetrate better but that is just a totally unscientific guess based on how they performed on animals. At the same weight will a small diameter arrow penetrate better? Thank you for sharing all your great research.
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Schlaggerman Im not saying it will outshoot a widow with 15 pounds - please go back and see what I wrote.
In essence this is what I get :
With midweight hunting arrows (550-650grains) the difference is 7-8 fps with Winex limbs. That again is something like 4-6 pounds of draw.
When i go to very heavy arrows (13grains/pound) the Winex still have app. the samme performance gain over the widow in fps. Now it comes : going to Samick Masters limbs and 13grains/pound the difference between my widow and DAS/Samick grows to 13-14 fps. That is something like 7-9 pounds which I think is much. The Samick limbs at midweight hunting arrows shoots app. like the winex so they only "shine" going to the very heavy ones.
The testing was done the following way :
12 strand dyna with 4 widow spider silencers on both bows. The drawweight was measured with the same scale and an arrow of excact 13grains/pound was made for each bow. The arrow was weighed on a electronic powder scale. Both grips are exactly 1,75 inches thick (AMO standard) from bottom of grip to backside of bow at the shelf.
Because of that my partner could use a mark on the arrow to check relative to the bow that I drew the same length on both bows. Most of my shots had from 0-1 fps variation from shot to shot. I went back and forth between the bows alternating the shots. The only thing that was different was the braceheight. The DAS was 7,5" and the widow was 8,0". I tried one shot with the widow at 7,5" but it felt and sounded horrible (BW don't rec. going under 8") so I didn't do it anymore. Anyway I wanted to compare the bows under the circumstances I was going to shoot them in "real life" hunting.
As a last comment : I don't have a horse in this race - and if I had it would have been for the BW because I have shot/owned more than 20 of their bows over the last app. 18 years and I love these bows. But in 3 month time I stand in front of a Buff in Darwin and then I want to shoot what is most efficient for that.
Please feel free to tell me if I could have done anything different to make the comparison more fair.
Torben
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Hello Chuck,
All I can document on the penetration effects shaft diameter so far is the following.
When all other parameters are held constant: BH, quality of arrow flight, shaft material, mass weight, % FOC, shaft design (for example, all shafts being parallel, or all being tapered or all barrel tapered shafts) shaft finish, impact force, relative size of test animal, and the nature and angle of tissue hits):
(1) When shaft diameter is larger than the diameter of the BH's ferrule penetration DECREASES by an average of 30% when compared to the penetration of a shaft having a diameter that equals the BH's ferrule.
(2) When shaft diameter is 5 to 8 percent smaller than the BH's ferrule diameter average penetration INCREASES by an average of 10% compared to a shaft having a diameter that equals the BH's ferrule.
This equates to a 40% difference in average penetration when comparing a shaft with a diameter larger than the BH's ferrule to a shaft with a diameter 5% to 8% smaller than the BH ferrule diameter. That's a very significant difference, making shaft diameter one of the high priority design features in reducing resistance to penetration. It is obvious that the BIG mistake would be to use a shaft diameter larger than the BH's ferrule diameter.
Thus far I've not been able to document an average penetration difference between shafts 5 to 8 percent smaller than the BH ferrule diameter and those with a greater difference between the shaft and ferrule diameters.
There's no reason not to go as small as you would like in shaft diameter, and it certainly does not hurt to do so, just keep them at least 5% to 8% smaller than your BH's ferrule diameter. Hope that helps answer your question.
Ed
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Hi Ed
It was a pleasure to meet you at Larrys, keep up the good work.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/GUNSMITHAMMO/P1010004-2.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/GUNSMITHAMMO/P1010010-1.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/GUNSMITHAMMO/P1010013-1.jpg)
I really liked your picture of the bull that had a thing with your block target!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/GUNSMITHAMMO/P1010012.jpg)
Thanks for all you do for us.
Brent
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Hay there Brent! Glad to see the buff photo on the computer screen came out good. That old boy is one of my favorite pictures. Look at that concentration! That's what instinctive aiming is all about!
It was really imprssive to see what your long draw did on that light draw ACS-CX with those 780 grain arrows. Sure brings home how important power stroke is and why I need a lot of bow at my shorter draw! Makes me want to dust off a few of the really big bows when I get back to Oz!!!!
I'm headed back to GA tomorrow AM for the flight to Africa, but can hardly wait to get back from there and head off for the next round of Buff testing.
Ed
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Good luck Ed, and have a safe trip. We will all be waiting, for more reports!
Brent
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Brent, whenever you get down for your buff hunt be sure to fill out a data sheet for me. If you hunt with Bill, he has some on hand. If you decide to hunt elsewhere just let me know and I'll email the field record sheet to you.
Ed
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Hi Ed
I go to Darwin after buff at Andrew Mackays place (Hotspur Lodge) in June this year. If you want me to fill out a data sheet just email one to me. I can't guarantee there is something on it afterwards but I sure as heck will give it a try.
I have set up my arrows pretty much following the advice in your reports :
Thin shaft (Beeman Max 4 spine 300) with part of child carbon shaft glued inside in the middle part for adding stiffness. 100 grain brass point adapter. Grizzly El Grande with 100 grain steel adapter. Total weight 830 grains and Foc close to 24%.
Bareshafts perfect with a speed of 170 fps out of my DAS recurve at 65#.
I have been granted permission by my wife to go out and buy some of the lubricant you talked about earlier today (LOL) - but I don't know how to use it. I mean on the arrows ! Do you put on a thin coat and let it dry or do you need a heavy coat or what ?
Also I am a little in doubt if I remember correct to use right wing feathers with the grizzly broadhead ?
Thanks for your help and I look forward to seeing the rest of your work.
Torben
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Hi Torben, Wasn't trying to dispute your findings, I was just responding to the original question. I hadn't even read your response. Our limbs and arrows are different anyway and a direct comparison probably can't be considered. I have WinEx limbs and you have Samick, plus you are shooting heavier arrows. My arrows are 500gr., about 9gr. per pound of bow weight. With my combination the DAS is not faster than the Widow. The DAS limbs very well may stand out more when heavier arrow to bow weight ratios are achieved. I just don't believe there could ever be a 15lb. make up in performance as was posed in the original question.
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Hi Schlaggerman, no problem. I agree with your statement of 15 lb between a DAS and a widow is not possible.
I'm bringing up a possible reason why you don't see the same difference of 7-8 fps between your widow and the DAS/winex combination that I get. I'm sure you already are aware of it but I will mention it anyway : How efficient the DAS/Winex limbs are depends a lot on the amount of preload you have your bow setup to. The combination of the bows length, your drawlength and how far you have cranked the limbs in or out does a world of difference. If you have a short to average drawlength and maybe have the long or medium limbs and combined with the limbs is on their lowest weight setting (cranked out)you will get relative poor performance. On the other hand if you have a long draw and short to medium limbs cranked all the way in you will also get poor performance plus you risk damaging the limbs.
Somwhere between these variables the bow has a "sweet range" where it is very efficient.
David has done a ton of testing to find out the right combinations so he can help you out if you haven't set it up at its best setting yet. Or you can bring out the cronograph and see for yourself. Another way to put it : say a guy wants to shoot 50#. He can do that in many ways.
For example he can use "light" limbs bottomed out or he can use "heavy" limbs cranked all the way out. Both bows are the same poundage but the performance you will get from them is very different.
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Torben, I'll be away for a little more than a month but will try my best to remember to send you one of the field record data sheets as soon as I'm back. If I forget, PLEASE drop me a personal message about the end of March if you haven't received it by then! I would greatly appreciate the data.
You have it correct. Use right wing fletching with the Grizzly. Get the BH as sharp and smoothly honed as you possibly can, and be sure to alter its Tanto tip to a cut-on-impact edge.
Just like Vasaline, the KY jelly won't get hard. It remains somewhat sticky. That's one of the things I don't like about using either. The arrows can easily collect surface grit.
There is a spray lubricant called INOX (available at most big hardware stores in Aussie) that works as well as anything I've yet tried, and it's a great rust inhibitor too. It's made in Canada, if I remember correctly. In blood-droplet testing INOX also appears to have no coagulent properties and appears, if anything, to have a slight anticoagulent quality (I used my own blood for those test, as it had to be very freah blood to be valid).
I've also tried adding a slick coat of finish over the carbon arrows, both with and without a hard coating of paste wax over that. In theory all these lubricants SHOULD help reduce shaft drag slightly, but I've found no lube yet that has shown a consistently measurable increase (or decrease) in average outcome penetration. At least the INOX does a great job of rust prevention on the BH's.
Some spray-on silicone lubes leave a dry finish, and I'm now testing with those too, as well as Teflon bearing lubricants. I think a perminent teflon shaft-coating would be best (because it certainly DOES helps on broadheads), but don't know how to get a perminent one onto the shaft!
Ed
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The question I have when does a Traditional bow not become a traidtional bow anymore?
Will there now be another catagory next to Traditional and Compound? Maybe Modified or Modern Traditional? Imgaine that Modern Traditional.
Here we go again, hiding the the need for speed behind a new modern product/invention.
I don't know why this bow gets any time here? Jim
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Kingstaken you are kidding - right ??
Nobody is hiding anything - no need to - I'm simply for performance (not speed - just say if I need to explain the difference) when shooting big dangerous game like buff.
No need to be so threathened by this "evil" it's just a recurve with a metal handle - no wheels or anything !!
Your last sentence is hard to comment on - believe me I have really tried to think long and hard what to say to you - but you really got me - I can't say a thing !! Imagine that- out of words.
Torben
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What about a Screaming Eagle. Got recurve limbs and ya can shoot instinctvely...
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Did you ever notice the two funny looking small cams and not to forget the cables on the Screaming Eagle - do you think they are put there as an ornament or for a practical purpose like giving the shooter let of ? If this question is to hard try to look in the dictionary under : compound bows.
I wonder why its so hard to understand that the DAS is "just" a recurve bow. I even shoot mine of the shelf like I did with my Widows and Adcock bows. Its got a riser, two limbs and one string - doesn't that sound vaguely like a bow ?
If its the performance you are feeling bad about what about a lot of other high performing bows like Border, Bill Stewart, Black Swan, Adcock, Morrison and so forth ... are we not supposed to talk about them either ? Are they "untrad" or what ?
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Kingstaken,
Trad Gang's line is drawn at wheels or cables.
If any other modifications of such type come out in the future, we'll add that to the 'non-trad bow' category.
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Dr. Ashby/Fellows:
My wife Karen and I are going to OZ with Don and Lori Thomas to Bill Baker's place for Buff. Karen is pulling a 67# @ 28" OL Adcock to 29" (70#). I am shooting a new 80# BW PLX @ 28". Yes, her draw is longer than mine. The bows (10# actual difference in draw eight) are shooting the same arrow perfectly, and with the same energy measured through the chrono. Amazing.
Dr. Ashby, here's my question: Although I'll get the arrow weight/spine up one way or another, right now we have two set-ups that work, both with carbon Gold Tip 100s (5/16" shaft). 1) 680 gr with 21% FOC (no shaft insert), and 2) 800 gr with 13% FOC (low tip weight, full length shaft insert). Of those two (I intend to have our final set up at about 1000 grains and 20% FOC), but of those two, which one would be preferred? THANKS! - Jay Campbell, JD
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Here's a quick update on what may be our final buffalo arrow. A Gold Tip Big Game 100 with a 1516 Easton "jazz" aluminum full length shaft inside, which fits tight. 70 grains of weight, aluminum insert, 125 gr steel broadhead adaptor, 160 grain head, (STOS Broadhead). Finished arrow weight - 892 grains. FOC - 16.5%. Arrow speed - 158 FPS out of both Karen's Adcock (70# at her 29" draw), and my 80# Black Widow PLX. Arrow flight is just a dart with Broadheads, Bare shafts, and Fletched shafts hitting together.
Hope that will do, we're going pig hunting with 'em tomorrow. - Jay and Karen Campbell
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The DAS DALAA bows will not out perform my Black Widow PSA and PMA or my carbon limb Palmer bows. Comparing same bow length and draw weight shooting the same arrow. I have limbs that are 45lb 50lb 55lb and 60lb.
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I have a dalaa and a palmer and a number of black widows. Dalaa comes in 3ed place when comparing all three makes of bows when set to 50, 55, and 60lb bow weight all shooting the same arrow. I was very diasappointed as I thought the new Dalaa was going to be my go to bow. Never the less, I chose to leave it at home this trip. Just harvested my Musk ox and am on to the polar bear in the morning - dangerous game? I chose the Black widow.
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Ok, I have a DAS and I have some Border Hex 5 mkI hunter limbs with the hyperflex core on it. They give me 63# at my 29 inch draw.
I have been doing some serious chrono work in preperation for some pig hunting next year and my next trip to africa the year after that.... and here are the numbers:
Arrow 1 580 grains, 193 fps, 47.98 ft/lbs ke and 0.5 slug lb/s momentum
Arrow 2 735 grains, 176 fps, 50.57 KE and 0.57 momentum
Arrow 3 845 grains, 167 fps, 52.34 ke and 0.63 momentum
Arrow 4 937 grains, 158 fps, 51.95 ke and 0.66 momentum.
Now take a look at those figures and compare with the 892 grain arrow That Jay is launching from an 80# black widow....
The thing with the DAS is that it is a solid , well designed riser, the magic really occurs when you match it up to some serious quality limbs... now my limbs are the mkI, the mkII limbs are even faster :scared:
I am by no way or means slagging off Black Widow either, I own one with two sets of limbs. great shooting bows :)
But comparible performance from a bow with 17 # less draw weight? yes please :)
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The DAS that i shot against my ff Silvertip , must have had a Cold that day ,because it came no where close in performance and accuracy. I find that when they hype bows up too much , i'm really disappointed when i try that particular Bow. by the way, to whoever said that foam limbs are lighter than Bamboo or maple, again those findings are different from mine AGAIN.
I had an interesting conversation with Earl many years ago and in his exact words " Sergio the benefits of foam cores and carbon are Consistency ! In a 41" FITA Bow at 80 metres , any change in humidity may change the draw weight 1-2# , so at that draw weight and at 80 metres there is a significant difference. However in a 60-65# hunting Bow , DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY !!! "
Not looking to get Flamed here, this a quote from Earl himself. :campfire:
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No flames here Sergio :campfire:
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It's funny how different preferences can be ;) I had a Silvertip and truly WANTED to like it more than my DAS bow..I tried! I loved the idea of shooting a bow of Paul Schafer's design, and I would guess I'll have another one someday, but I tried quite a few of the top name recurves, including a Border Black Douglas, and none of them shot as well for me as the DAS. I think the good thing about it is its versatility...don't like the grip? Change it...don't like the way the limbs feel? Try a different set...plunger and rest? No problem. Off the shelf? Try the most adjustable off-the-shelf bow ever created! There's something really romantic about Schafer bows, and mine shot VERY well...its just the DAS is everything I want it to be, when I want it to be :) ...except a longbow....my findings may vary now that I've shot more, and I'm getting more into longbows presently, but my 21" Naki will always be in my arsenal.
Craig
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Buejager,
I'm just wondering about comparing a DAS recurve to a Black Widow longbow. Correct me, please, if I'm mistaken, but I understand Jay shot an 80# Black Widow longbow. I love Black Widow longbows, but I understand (again, please correct me if I'm wrong) that as good as they are, they are out-performed by same-weight Black Widow recurves. If that's the case, I'd be interested to see the results tested against a Black Widow recurve. I do like you signature line, too!
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Originally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Buejager,
I'm just wondering about comparing a DAS recurve to a Black Widow longbow. Correct me, please, if I'm mistaken, but I understand Jay shot an 80# Black Widow longbow. I love Black Widow longbows, but I understand (again, please correct me if I'm wrong) that as good as they are, they are out-performed by same-weight Black Widow recurves. If that's the case, I'd be interested to see the results tested against a Black Widow recurve. I do like you signature line, too!
Hi Ben,
I unfortunately dont have a black widow in that poundage, my widow is 52@29.... However I do believe, wait I'll check.... yes here it is and I quote
"Yes, the new CNC “precision crafted” Black Widow longbow is as fast and sweet to shoot as a Black Widow recurve"
straight from BW web page....
So Black widow them selves say that the longbow is as fast shooting as the recurve.
Now I dont want to turn this thread into a bashing Black Widow thread, like I said I have two (well one riser and two sets of limbs) and I really enjoy shooting them.. in fact my target limbs on the widow helped me take the new Norwegian Indoor FITA (trad) record last month... so I DO like the widows.. :campfire:
(Glad you like my sig :) )
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R. Blacky Schwarz has done these tests. Both shot a 9 grain per pound arrow 194. Notice the brace height for both bows.
BLACK WIDOW PA "X"
Brace Height for Testing: 8 3/8 inches
Draw Weight: 50 lbs @ 28 inches (AMO)
Arrow weight: 452 grains
Arrow Speed with mechanical release: 194 fps
Arrow Speed with finger release: 189 fps
DAS DALLA W/ 21" RISER
Brace Height for Testing: 7 3/8 inches
Draw Weight: 53 lbs @ 28 inches (AMO)
Arrow weight: 476 grains
Arrow Speed with mechanical release: 194 fps
Arrow Speed with finger release: 189 fps
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L82HUNT,
Those are with the stock Dalaa limbs, not Winex or in Nathan's case, the Border Hex5s. You will gain a good 5-8 fps trading up in limbs, but admittedly not 17 pounds worth. Another thing to think about is the fact that bow design loses efficiency after 65 pounds or so, meaning that pounds over 65 means less that pounds over 55.
Craig
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Also 21" riser.. I use the 17" riser...
Also the 194 speed is with a release,, its 189 with fingers.
My 580 arrow is 9.2 grains per pound, with fingers I am getting 193...
As for the "17#" well are the BW recurves 17 pounds more effective at the same draw weight as the BW longbow? BW say it shoots as fast....
Ok, lett the hunt begin for a 63# @ 29" 62" amo BW recurve shooter begin
Or has Blacky done a BW Recurve VS BW longbow test?
Nathan :campfire:
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Originally posted by buejeger:
Or has Blacky done a BW Recurve VS BW longbow test
He has, Black Widow PL X "Birdseye Maple" T/D
Brace Height for Testing: 7 3/8 inches
Draw Weight: 50.5 lbs @ 28 inches (AMO)
Arrow weight: 457 grains
Arrow Speed with mechanical release: 190 fps
Arrow Speed with finger release: 185 fps
Understand that the limbs may be different then the ones you may be using. But it seems if you really look into it, that the differance is small all the way around. Lets say that with the hex limbs you do get 5fps more, thats 2.5% more speed. You can get that by changing out the stock string.
Let say the test string is a 16 strand flemish made of D97.(This is the strings supplied by Widow) You change to a 8 strand UltraCam Endless, I gain 4-5 fps. Either way you are getting a super performing bow.
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Oh I agree 100% it really comes down to personal choice and how one sets up the bow, like I said I really enjoy shooting my widow too :)
Nice to see that the longbow was only 4fps behind the recurve, that shows that the BW longbows do indeed shoot "as fast" as the recurves.. (ok 4fps slower but as we said in the real world that is nothing...)
And as you say, a super peforming bow...
Regards, Nathan
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I need some limbs for a 21" das elite riser- I am so screwed up after reading this I don't know what to get, any help would be appreaciated. It would be used for both hunting and target. What is the boarder turn around.
Thanks, Bill
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I would really recommend the Borders.. HEX5 mkII are about 6-7 fps faster than my limbs which are mk1....
Smooth is the word, you will LOVE them :)
Turnaround is about 8 weeks, but varies so give Sid a call, their website is forever under construction but the phone works :)
Give him a call and have a chat, he will build you a set of limbs that will be perfect for you.
Nathan
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Thanks Nathan- I'm going to do just that.
Bill
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You are very welcome Bill :)