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Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: BigAl on January 11, 2007, 03:53:00 PM
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I read Glen St. Charles' book recently and can't help but agree with him re:hunting dangerous game with a bow. Essentially, he says that if you have to have a gun backup to hunt any game, what you're really saying is that you shouldn't be hunting it with a bow in the first place. That's sort of like saying that I'll slap anybody in the face as long as I have Arnie Swartznegger, et al, standing behind me. Comments?
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Yeah, I've heard it before and I have a lot of respect for Glenn, but its only his opinion and me and a whole lot of other people don't agree with it. Even if it was true that it is perfectly safe(it isn't) SO WHAT? Jillions of nondangerous animals are shot, so that point makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Should we not hunt deer, because it isn't dangerous? I've crawled up on lots of dangerous animals with a very big rifle in my hands and I knew that I wasn't safe, maybe the bow hunter with me felt he was safe because I had a rifle, but that was only because he didn't know any better. Maybe Glenn made that statement as to explain why he never hunted dangerous game. GUN HUNTERS have the rifle back up as well and aside from the fact that it is a rare year that several professional hunters don't get whacked by dangerous or even nondangerous game, its not just there for protection, its also there to make sure a wounded animal dosn't escape to suffer a long lingering death.
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And if you need to wear a seatbelt, you should be driving a car.
we should never have a contigency plan.
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I'm with Rick, Glenn's points of view make sense to me nearly all the time, but that one?????
I've never seen a PH next to a big five rifle client WITHOUT his own firearm...he is backing up the rifle hunter with a GUN!!!!! And I see them use them routinely even if the client makes a good hit.
Why shouldn't a bowhunter be afforded a last ditch backup?
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I guess Glen shouldn't be hunting Africa at all with a bow. Is it safe to go into the bush hunting antelope without a gun. You might run right into a lion and become dinner. What about cleaning game? Better just stay on the bus with the rest of the tourists. Justin
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I hunt in black bear, hog, and snake country without a gun all the time, but never in Grizzly country (.475 Linebaugh). On the rare occasion I'm helping track a wounded hog, I carry the big pistol or a .45 if possible, even if I'm also carrying my bow.
I've never pulled the trigger, so I suppose that means I could always have gone afield with just the bow, but I feel better and safer for my bowhunting wife and me, and that's where I draw the line. Bowhunters have their individual comfort zones, and should stay within them. Mine begins around wounded animals in the lower 48, and healthy ones in Alaska. We're going after Buff in Australia this summer, and I expect someone will have a rifle somewhere. I'll hunt without it there, but I surely woudn't track wounded Buff without it. - Jay Campbell, JD
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Many respects to Glen,but sorry I don't fully agree.
I've shot three large feral bulls with a bow and things went well on all of them.
But each time I've had a mate with a rifle with me.I'm not sure having the rifle there made much difference in how safe either of us were though.
I've worked with cattle half my life and know even an old dairy cow can go absolutely mad just on the smell of another animals blood.
If their hurt and wound up,a gun may not stop them anyway,more so in heat of the momment,close contact,think bush,ect ect.
I think a gun is a good idea,but I,m damn sure going to know where the best tree is before I rely on any gun anyway.
Matter of fact the gun carrier can find his own tree,all the ones round here are mine.
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All wild animals can present a danger-people get badly mauled and even killed by deer every year. And stuff can fall off the shelf in an earthquake or tornado too-you going to walk around the house in steel toed boots and sleep wearing a helmet?
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Each to their own I guess... I have always hunted without the gun backup and will continue to do so, but like most I have a comfort zone, mine includes an escape route :)
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G'day guys, yeh Jay there will be someone beside you with rifle back-up on your Buffalo hunt here in Australia. It will most likely be me or my head guide Brad Kane with one of our .375's. Although I've hunted and killed Buffalo with my recurve without back-up I have a policy in my Buffalo camp that ALL clients are backed-up on Buff, it's just good sence. Also, like Rick has said on rare occasions we have had to finish wounded Buff, where we would not have had an opportunity to finish them with the bow.
Brad and I backed Doug Chase up on his Buffalo hunt last year and he put two bulls down in very short order with no fuss.
The next week we all hunted hogs and scrub bulls up on Cape York Penninsula.
It wasn't a guided hunt and I was only carrying my recurve and hunting with my U.S. mates. Doug decided he wanted to have a crack at a Scruber.
Doug is a very experienced and dedicated bowhunter and I have the upmost respect for him. Doug had a hard time with his Scrub Bull but finally tipped it over after some very hairy moments. I can tell you there were a number of times that Doug looked at me and said "I wish you had your .375 H&H here right now". I can honestly say there were a couple of times I wished for it too. We did that follow-up with extreme caution and always tried to have two climbable trees nearby.
When things get dangerous they have a habit of happening very quickly and they become dangerous not just for the hunter but for everyone concerned.
I'll be bowhunting Brown Bear on the penninsula in October and I'll be more than comfortable with my guide carrying a back-up rifle, I only hope he never has to use it.
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If not for protection from an enraged wounded animal, a gun would ensure the animal's suffering isn't prolonged if a secondary bow shot does not present. Why take chances with either?
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I agree with ishiwannabe
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I've gun hunted, bowhunted and guided for big and dangerous game. Having had a number of close calls, both with wounded and unwounded game, as well as game not on license, for potentially lethal game I'll vote for having adequate firearms backup present whenever the law and circumstances allow. With big animals it's sometimes necessary in order to prevent loss and needless suffering of wounded game ... and sometimes it saves your bacon! I desire to be around to hunt another day, regardless of what MIGHT happen! No arrow is my idea of a 'stopper' ... my .500 Nitro Express double IS.
No disrespect for the opinion of others, but there's a difference between having confidence and taking a needless risk. I'm a good and confident swimmer too, but I still don't swim outside the shark net!
Ed
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There are 3 reasons why I usually pack a firearm when I'm hunting in grizzly country (which is every year).
One is 13, one is 12 and one is 10. I doubt Mr. St. Charles is going to attend my kids' school events, drive them to hockey at 0500 or pay my mortgage if I get beat up by a large animal.
So, respectfully, his opinion on that matter means squat to me.
RC
(from BC- the province with the biggest population of griz in the world)
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Families to raise, feed and shelter. Hopefully grandkids to spoil and pass on traditions. Friends to enjoy. Life insurance can't replace daddy. Calculated risks for me. Lots of respect for those who don't use back up lead.
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I think people are missing the point that Glen was making. I'm all for not being foolhardy. Stupid risks just lead to pain, suffering and even death.
But should we be hunting animals that we are afraid to hunt without large caliber backup? Are we not then inferring that our stick and string is not really adequate for the situation and animal being hunted?
Playing devils advocate, so don't shoot the messenger.
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S-R, it still makes absolutely no sense imo. A rifle hunter hunting the same dangerous game would have the exact same backup rifle behind him, does that mean these animals shouldn't be hunted with a rifle either? If so, then the backup rifle isn't adequate either, so what difference does it make if its behind a bowhunter? Like I said before I think Glenn was just trying to come up with an excuse for the fact that he never hunted the dangerous stuff.
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I like the Russian way of looking at things:
"Life is the most extreme sport there is, nobody has lived through it yet."
I am not sure what Glenn meant, but I don't think it is an excuse at all. If yer scared say yer scared maybe? if yer afraid of sharks stay out the water? carrying a gun is being pansy? maybe he just didn't care to have to have a gun with him at all, he was that dedicated to the bow?
Seriously guys and all above statements is kidding except for the last statement. Maybe he was that dedicated to the bow and realized the stupidity of hunting dangerous game without a backup gun?
Who knows? Great man though period.
Thoughts?
Jason
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Sitting here at work in relative safety,I think Glen's logic is sound.
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Rick,
I don't know what Glenn truly meant either, just engendering discussion as I've never heard that from a bowhunter, especially one in Glenn's position.
I've read lots of garbage from African DG hunters on Africa forums who slam us by calling hunting with a bow for DG nothing but a stunt. I disagree whole heartedly as they, as you've stated, always have backup, when they hunt DG.
Not long ago I reread two of my favorite bowhunting stories. Monty Browning's articles in TBM from 1996 and 2002 where he took the world record brown bear and a great Australian buff. Australia would be a dream come true hunt for several species, including buff.
If memory serves, you have successfully hunted buffalo in the land down under.
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Glenn's entitled to his own opinion. Now in my opinion, one who hunts DG without a backup regarless of hunting metheod is just plain careless and somewhat challenged when it comes to making a good decision.If you have no regard for life (your own) and your family that has to deal with the mess then go right ahead. In the case of backup for gun or bow a big bore gun is never a guarantee the something bad won't happen. I've been 15 ft from a number of cape buffalo and let me tell you at that distance a .375 H&H feels alot like a .22 short! I now use a .458 LOTT it feels bigger that a .22! I will someday chase one with a bow and I guarantee you there will be someone I trust behind me with a big gun!
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On my hunt in Australia last fall we were charged (unprovoked) by a large buff. He came to within 6 yards and at that point even the 416 Andrew was carrying probably wasn't going to bring the big boy down with one shot (which is all he would have had time for). It was one of the most intense moments of my life...and I've had some doozies. My 77 lb. recurve sure felt small in my hands about that time! Having a rifle backup only makes sense but (much like wearing a helmet on a motorcycle)....it can provide a false sense of security. You are still in danger (in both cases) but you are providing yourself an additional safety buffer that will help in "some" scenerios. PS> The buff finally ran off without having to shoot. We both had to sit down for a few minutes and get the jelly out of the old legs.
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S-R, yes I have hunted water buff quite a lot, in fact I was there with Monty Browning when he killed the world record and we were lucky that day. We have had a lot of water buff charge unprovoked, except by our presence. A bloke was killed by a buff a couple years ago while he was checking his well pump, maybe we can include that as something that requires a backup rifle.
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LOL Rick,
Hate to live in an area whee I needed a backup gun to checka well pump! or go to the outhouse.
Have fun,
Jason
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Rick,
I'm sorry I forgot that you were with Monty when he took his buff. I wish I was in your part of the world, I would love to buy you dinner and then just listen for a couple of hours.
I'm glad I didn't need a back up gun when I was working on my water pump here in Montana last summer!
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If you go up to the top of this page you will see the photo of Cory Mattson with his buff, I took that photo. I had to use most of the tricks I know to get that buff in position for the shot and in fact I had to invent a couple new tricks too! I took most of the photos of Montys buff too, including all the photos of it when it was alive. We have a room about 15 feet square on the cattle station in OZ, its where we lay the capes on the floor and cover them in salt, it has a doorway, but no door, one day we walked in there and Andrew said, Rick theres been a buffalo in here, I said, "yeah, they are all over the floor", he said, "no a live one", I said something like,"we have to cut back on your beer ration". HOWEVER I looked in the room and sure enough there were buffalo tracks all over the salted capes! I often wonder what would have happened if one of us had walked into that room in the dark and flipped on the lightswitch!
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Rick,
I know I have read someplace who you are hunting in OZ with. Is it Bill?
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We get mice occasionally in our home. The joys of living in an 80 year old home outside of town. My wife and daughter let me lead the way at night turning on the lights.
Not sure I would want to be point man if there were buffalo roaming the kitchen. Yeehaw! Great pic above and of Monty's buffalo.
Thanks for sharing the story!
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I agree with St. Charles. I think to many hunters nowdays don't have the ability or experience to bowhunt truly dangerous animals. It's a mucho thing which they can buy.
Fred Bear says it best; an arrow has no real shocking power, it kills through loss of blood and hemorage. In Fred's movies, he always had a back up, but, was so accurate and efficent with his recurve he never needed help.
I would only hunt dangerous animals with a gun, a big gun and non threatening species with a bow. I don't trust my abilites. Even with a lethal hit on dangerous game, for that minute or so afterwards when they want to destroy whatever hurt them in the worst kind of way.
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The first two polar bears Fred Bear shot charged and were stopped with the rifle. I agree that there are some bowhunters who have more money than skill or sense, but the same thing could be said of many gun hunters as well. You get out of something what you put into it, if you only do things that are safe and easy, whats the point?
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"if you only do things that are safe and easy, what's the point?".
That statement pretty much sums it up.
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When I was young I watched the American Sportsmen with Curt Gowdy every weekend . I remember the show with Fred Bear hunting Grizzly bear . He very efficently stalked up to about 25 yards of a huge bear when the bear stoog on his hind feet and stared at him , he promply shot and missed an animal the size of a barn door at 25 yards . No man , mot even Fred Bear , is that good that he doesn't need backup . If you feel you can't hunt dangerous game with a bow than don't . you don't have to justify your position by analising or talking down to thoise who do , that's what the anti's do to all of us . Fred
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Here is my point -- I don't necessairly do things the easy way, but I try to be safe. I'm 65 and worked my butt off for a lot of year to be able to retire, which I did ten years ago, and I have no intention of doing something stupid and overly risky and cut short this good thing I have going. The last bear I shot, I was alone, but I was packing heavy.
Cheers from Alaska
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People have a right to their own opinion and no disrespect to Charles, but when hunting dangerous game, people need to be safe. That is, if they are using a riffle or bow, they should have a back up for safety.
Another example is, camping in dangerous game country. Every year people have a negative encounter with grizzly bears in Alaska, and I feel people need to have some kind of protection. You can take all the precautions and still have unpleasant encounters with curious bears.
For instance, a few years back a couple floaters got eaten by a sow in the Brooks Range. They took all the precautions of cooking away from camp and storing their food away from their tents. The bear was not starving or old, but it waited for the couple to go to bed. Once tucked into their tents the bear ate them.
Therefore, I believe people should be as safe as possible hunting, camping or checking water pumps, and have some kind of back up for safety.
Just my 2 cents on dangerous game.
Chuck
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Thank you, Chris. (oustanding photo, by the way, on your profile page)
Rich
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Guys....keep it trad bowhunting related.
Thanks.
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To GreyFox 54,
I got this story from Fred himself on the Grizzly he missed at 25 yards. Back in those days many people did not believe a bow could kill a dangerous animal like a grizzly. Fred was trying to kill the bear so it would die on film, meaning he was trying to shoot it in the neck/jugular. Obviously he still missed but he did not miss a target the size of a barn door. However, your point is still valid. No one should hunt dangerous game w/o backup.
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I think just as some of us have made a choice to hunt game with a simple stick and string, others have made a choice to hunt with gun or otherwise. We are all in this together - to the dismay of the anti's. Let's keep it that way.
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I think that even the Indians had "back-up" meaning that they tried to make it as safe as possible as in having a lot of fellow Indians with them or driving animals off cliffs, into pitts etc. We're not bowhunting to survive-we do it for the thrill, It's TOO much thrill for me not to have back-up for grizzlies etc. I do have confidence in the equipment and my abilities though. All the black bear I have hunted have been without back-up and they are potentially dangerous but a grizzly without it would be beyond my comfort zone. I have no need to prove anything.
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If you are single and childless and feel some sense of accomplishment hunting dangerous game without backup, then feel free to proceed. If you are a husband and father you should consider your obligation to others and make some sound choices about calculated risks.
Nothing is guaranteed in this life. You can get killed any time you get in the car, but you put the seatbelt on to improve your chances of continuing to sit at the dinner table with your family if you do get in an accident. Same thing with a back-up weapon on dangerous game.
I really want to kill a gator next month without using the bang-stick to finish it off. But, I am mindful of the fact that it might not be feasible under the actual hunting conditions, the boat is not mine, and the safety of my hunting companions and me may dictate otherwise.
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Like my emphasis on Bowhutnign at my seminars, wheter bow or Dangerous Game and a Back Up Rifle:
SEC
1) Safety (for you and others)
2) Ethics for the Sacred game and you and
3) Common Sense ( It is the LAW)
to hunt Grizz with bow without a back up is....
Not Common Sense .... like snow boarding where Avalanches are prevalent and then expecting someone to rescue you.
NEVER,NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR QUARRY OR OPPONET.
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if you go stalking brownies without a gun very many times, you more than likely will get the oportunity to realize your preventable ignorance. not packing is purely a lack of respect for the bear.