Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: frank the hunter on August 14, 2009, 08:42:00 AM
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hi everyone. i have hunted grizzlys before but with a compound bow but now i shoot bare bows & love them. what do you guys think that a 50 pounds & 28" keeping the shoots to no longer then 20 yards would it do the job & what weight arrow would you shoot. I cant realy shoot any heaver. thank you guys for any help & have a safe day.
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"& have a safe day."? Can you do that while hunting grizz? :)
I think I would want more bow, and be sure the guide with the BIG gun is close by! They have several inches of thick hair, tough hide, and fat to penetrate before you get to the goodies. Dan Quillian shot 70# with a long draw, and penetrated to the hide on the other side, quartering slightly away. Superceders and big Snuffers.
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I'm think you would have enough bow unless you get into a real monster, but I would be looking at arrows of at least 700 grains with something like the Ashby broadhead for maximum penetration. Fred Eichler has shot grizzly and brown bear with his 54 pound bow, and those were big bears. You have to have everything tuned right and make a good slightly quartering away shot if possible to ensure good penetration. I would want more bow poundage too, but you can get away with 50 pounds if you are really good. I second the big gun backing you up! That is always a good idea with dangerous game.
Allan
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50 pounds is the low end of legal gear for Browns here in Alaska. I don't hunt them because they almost always taste horrible, I've herd interior bears aren't bad and I ate some of a young one without access to fish that was good. I don't get why anyone would want to hunt one but if you must don't do it without a back up with one major cannon in his hands. Even if you hit perfectly that bears heart beats slow, you'll be poo before he bleeds out.
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Grizzlies have thin hide in behind there shoulders in the arm pit area.An arrow placed in there from a 50lb bow with some weight behind it and a good broadhead should do the trick.Just make the shot count and make sure he doesn't see where it came from.The key is shot placement.Hit him in the shoulder square on and your going to have one mean bear,hit him behind the shoulder and you'll have your bear.
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I think #50 is too light. This opinion is based on both personal hunting experience and experience guiding hunters carrying both rifles and bows. You might be okay on interior grizzlies, but I would be reluctant to back up a hunter with a #50 bow on large coastal brown bears. Too much chance of marginal penetration followed by hard feelings if I had to make a quick decision to dump the bear or a very nasty trip into the alders (or both). Don
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Just my two cents worth, but all you really need is NERVE and a good back up plan.
Obviuosly you need to be good with your equipment and I think 50 pounds will do fine with a heavy arrow and a good tip BUT placement is everything.
What I mean about nerve is that I will almost guarrantee you that the first time you go after something that can actually hurt or attack you...YOU will have some NERVE ISSUES.
I have taken 11 blackies now and no grizz but they are different quarry for sure.....I MEAN IT.
This is a video of my spring bear hunt. This bear had killed my buds horse and was in the process of buring it when we found him. he ran into the bush and was making quite a racket....huffing and puffing - it will bring the hair up on your neck believe me.
He charged me twice and then I got the shot. I shot low (f%*&^%(&%(&%), but I got caught up in the moment and didn't pick a spot...it happens and it sucks, but it's hunting.
My buddy ended up shooting it through the lookers on the last charge....probably a good idea....not the biggest of grizz but he took down a full grown horse so I know what he can do to a human.
I would love to have a handgun, but don't get me started on our Canadian firearm rules, but they will make me a criminal soon I think. It's rediculous that here in the yukon in grizz country they won't listen to reason that if a person hunts with a bow that it would be a great idea to have a handgun on you somewhere....BUT.
So here's the video and the bear. I know it was finished with a gun and you will probably take it off the site because of that, but I hope you don't cause I think it's important for ppl to know what can happen and it happens real fast.
When we skinned him out I hit him in the foreleg (not proud of my shot at all), but then he went in the bush. the next time he came out he was pissed...sorry no video cause I was hitting the dirt while my buddy put him away.
Here it is and some pics ok.
my buddy is videoing and i am on the ground about 30 yards away and my heart is in my throat. He has false charged me once and then the second time he came in he was standing on his hinds waving his head and then punding the ground......
really makes you think about a bow, but hey that's what we do right.
this was the third time he came back and I got a shot. The next time he came back my buddy finished him.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg163/jerbearyukon/th_P1000540.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg163/jerbearyukon/?action=view¤t=P1000540.flv)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg163/jerbearyukon/IMG_3071.jpg)
Jer Bearless, but still here
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Grizz have thin skin and strong bones. I shot my bear with a 63# bow and a 565 grain arrow. Got a complete pass thru at 7 yards. I would have to say that I would be much more comfortable shooting a bow in the upper 50's or more. Mainly for trajectory's sake. I'd want something to shoot pretty flat out to 20 if that was my comfortable shooting distance.
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Originally posted by Don Thomas:
I think #50 is too light. This opinion is based on both personal hunting experience and experience guiding hunters carrying both rifles and bows. You might be okay on interior grizzlies, but I would be reluctant to back up a hunter with a #50 bow on large coastal brown bears. Too much chance of marginal penetration followed by hard feelings if I had to make a quick decision to dump the bear or a very nasty trip into the alders (or both). Don
Mr. Thomas having first hand knowledge certainly should be heeded! I have not hunted brown bears with bow, but after living on the Kenai Peninsula for a few years I can share with you that being up close and real personal to a few brown bears with fly-rod in hand and once with a 50 cal. black powder rifle while within a few yards of some browns I sure would want more oomph than a 50# bow. I shoot a 55# and 58# bow and if the desire or opportunity came up to hunt for bear I sure would try to work into a 60# something before heading into the bush. So, those bear are really big, my two-cents is listen to those that have done it, good luck.
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I shot my brownie with a 54# longbow BUT I bet I was a bit under full draw. It was a small bear however and I had plenty of bow for her. Arrow was DF with a 160 grizzly and I had complete penetration of about 2 feet at a quartering angle, entered thru shoulder muscle, exit in front f hind quarters. So I think 50# is enough on a small-medium sized bear. Kodiak or AK Penn where the bears are bigger might be pushing it!
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thanks for the help guys & the video was great. i tryed shooting more vertial with my bow & found that i can pull more poundage. Thanks again have a great day.
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Personally I think a 50# bow would be fine, as long as you remember to shoot it from inside an APC.
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I can't hunt Griz with my longbow yet, I can still walk around without a wheelbarrow. I'm gettin there though.
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If a 40 lb bow with EFOC arrows can penetrate a water buffallo 50% of the time, then a properly set up arrow out of a 50 lb bow at 20 yards can easily penetrate a grizzly. They are not nearly as tough as a water buff.
As stated before practice hard and put it in the boiler room. Stress will be way high taking any shot at dangerous game.
So what happens if you hit a shoulder? Easy fix, arrow over 650 grains. Razor sharp braodhead - two blade single bevel, tanto cutting tip. Arrows tuned to your bow for perfect flight, with a minimum of 20% FOC. This type of arrow will shoot thru ribs or shoulder bones and penetrate plenty deep for a clean kill on a grizzly.
Lots of people want to shoot more bow and can't. If this is true for you, don't get discouraged. Become very proficient with what your shooting. A bow you can comfortable pull and shoot accurately is far more important than more draw weight. Fred Eichler killed his grizzly with a 54 lb bow. I plan to hunt them with a 55lb longbow.
There is a lot of talk about how much better trajectory you can get with more poundage, how much better penetration, etc... Draw weight and arrow speed are very low on the importance factor for penetration. Unless of course you can get 20 to 30 lbs more draw weight and then were talking some serious penetration improvement. You are not gaining that much speed on your arrow by going up 10 lbs in draw weight. And speed is not what kills! Arrows that penetrate well are what kills. Optimizing your arrows for the bow you shoot well will give you a lot better penetration.
If you haven't done it yet, read the Ashby reports and particularly the 3 or 4 most recent ones. Your bow is plenty heavy, focus on optimizing your arrows and working on your skill with the bow instead.
American Indians lived with and killed plenty of grizzlys with stick bows, wood arrows, and stone points. I would bet their bows were often well under 50lbs and did not shoot nearly as fast as yours if they were 50lbs.
Oh, and when you booking a guide make sure they are comfortable with being around the bears and experienced at backing customers up. A charging bear is no place to find out your guide is not experienced or courageous. And don't be a ninny and tell them not to shoot until your say so or at the last second if the bear is charging you. Bear kills are ugly and I can imaging hurt a lot before you die! If an experienced guide says the bear had to be shot, then ....
Good luck and post your pics when your hunt is done.
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Id say 50# will do it. Its all about arrow placment. You get him in the goody box and youll have it made.
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Do not set up your arow thinking you will penetrate the shoulder, as you most likely will not. i have shot a big blackbear square in the shoulder with a 680gr arow two blade out of a 63 lb bow at 25 yards the head stuck in the shoulder blade, almost nocked the bear over but didnt get in the goods, personaly for a brownie i would be looking for a reasonable arrow weight around 600 + or- a little, and have good speed where shooting 30 isnt out of the questiong, of course 30 yards takes lots of practice but thats what we like to do. i personaly wouldnt want to be too much closer than 20, i want time to grab my other weapon. as getting within 20 or closer to a bear with out it knowing you are there is hard enough for one guy let alone two.
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Shooting the shoulder on a grizz should not even be considered, unless you're contemplating suicide.
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No one said to contemplate shooting at a shoulder. The point of the comment was to optimize the arrow for penetration. If you happen to hit heavy bone you can still get penetration with the right arrow and proper optimization.
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black bears, certainly. brown bears, i'm not so sure. i'd be thinking 60#@28" with 10gr/# would be a sensible minimum. i've skinned black bears and there's really nothing to them. i don't have any experience with grizzlies other than seeing them. i imagine that the are a little tougher though.
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The problem with brown bears and larger black bears is that they do not die very quickly if they are not hit well. There are a lot of horror stories about big bears being shot and then mauling the shooters. The problem with the stories ( all true ) that you don't hear is about bad shot placement, even multiple bad shot placement and that leaves the bear able to attack the shooter.
I grew up around and have been around bear guides all my life. I have hunted bears all my life. They are not nearly as tough as people make them out to be. A guide buddy of mine gets a real kick out of guys who show up for a black bear hunt with a 300 Win Mag or 375 H & H. He says they just blow the hide up and make life hard on the taxidermist. He likes to see anything from a 6.5 mm to a light loaded 308 with solids. His mantra is big bullets you can't shoot straight don't match smaller rounds you hit with.
When you skin out a grizzly or large blackbear you rapidly find out that they are not a particularly heavy boned animal. Water Buff they are not. If you hunt them enough you also learn that a double lung shot leads to a running animal that dies quickly. Heart shots also result in quick deaths. Most any other hit can lead to problems.
I will never forget the first Black Bear I saw killed. I was 6 and just walking along with my uncles while they hunted a ridge for elk up near Mt Hood. A large for this area ( 400 lb ) Black Bear swam the river in the valley below us and started up the ridge line. One of my uncles had a tag and put a shot into the bear. That bear got really angry and charged up the side of the ridge at us. My uncles volley fired on that bear emptying their rifles.
One of the bears legs was broken in the shooting. The bear ran back to the river and swam across. My grandfather, brother, and father were on the far ridge watching the whole thing. I watched from across the valley as grandpa sat down, braced up and put that running bear down with one well placed round from 300 yards. The bear was a mess and had 8 rounds in his body. Only grandpas was well placed.
When my uncles and I got across the river, my grandpa had a few choice things to say to them about shot placement and getting over excited in dangerous situations. He looked at my brother and I and said " Boy's when the killing begins you have to be calm and collected, nothing matters but making the shot". I never forgot that simple statement from a man I respected.
Get close, make a clean shot and put that shot in the boiler room. Make a bad shot and you are going to have a pissed off bear either headed your way fast, or hiding in the brush where you have to go in after him with all the advantages on his side. The real key is shoot what you can shoot straight with every time. Get inside your comfortable accurate shooting range, and put the arrow in the lungs or heart. Anything else with any weapon can lead to the same bad results. Upping your bow weight will not counter bad form and bad shots due to that same bow weight.
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i second that, i was with a friend that arrowed a big black bear looked like a decent hit but we still waited, blood loked like a liver so we took our time, lots of blood the next day, we expected to find the bear. well we did but it wasnt dead and it did what black bears do best ran straight up the mountain and we didnt see another lick of blood, the bear bedded in a avalanch shoot that still had snow, i think the cold stoped the external bleeding. so my point they are as wise as they are tough. i have never seen a blackie go out of sight with two lungs hit, a friend that shoots the wrong kind of bow got a complete pass through on a big brown both lungs, there was blood waist high on all of the alders but he went hundreds of yards in brush that you would expect only hogs to run through. I would consider them two different worlds when it comes to follow up even with a perfect shot.
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Sorry, RF, I was reacting to the statement you made, "This type of arrow will shoot thru ribs or shoulder bones and penetrate plenty deep for a clean kill on a grizzly."
I don't believe you can count on shooting through shoulder bones on ANY game animal of any size. It can happen, but you can't count on it.
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Don,
We agree on that last part. I have seen bows shoot thru the shoulder and seen them fail to do say. The ones I have seen fail are always shooting light weight arrows. Heavier arrows can fail to penetrate a shoulder as well, depending on angle and shooting distance. They are just a lot more likely to do so than a light weight arrow.
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thanks again guys for the help & have a great day
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Ragnarok Forge
I like your point of view. You can't beat experience and common sense!
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I'd say 50# is too light! C'mon overkill here isn't a bad thing and having a heavyweight setup should be a must-especially if you think your gonna have to backup with rifle. And sorry if I hurt your feelings JW. But, ya this is a trad site and no reason to post your rifle pics here!!
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thanks guys for the help i am working on shooting a heaver bow have a great day & great holidays
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Not an expert on dangerous game, but shot placement is always the most important part of the hunt. If you can't accurately shoot a high pondage bow then shoot the one you can shoot accurately. IMO
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personally I don't know why a person would take a marginally weighted bow on a Grizzly hunt.If I wasn't able to shoot, say a 60# bow I would be working up to that long before hunt day. A grizz hunt with a bow is on my bucket list and believe you me I will be taking enough bow!!!
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Just pull up the trail cam pics from Alaska that were posted about a month or so ago showing just how HUGE these bears can be.......I would want at least a 600 gr arrow and a bow that can sling it pretty fast.
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Ive been guiding hunters in northern bc and the Yukon for over 25 years now, and have seen my share of bears taken with archery tackle. 50# is plenty, just use heavy arrows and good heads. Your guide will make sure you dont shoot to far so no need to worry about that. Grizzlys have very thin hide compared to moose, or even caribou. I would far rather have a hunter with a 50# bow he can shoot very well to a hunter even slightly over-bowed. Good luck and have fun!
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Thanks guys it seams fifty pounds is just right for me to shoot well with thanks for all the help and hunt safe
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I think the most important issue is to be Mentally prepared for this hunt! A big brownie a close range is not for the faint of heart. That being said, i believe you are at the low end of the a bow weight range. But with perfect shot placement and a razor sharp broadhead and you should be fine.
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I shoot a 55 pound tomahawk diamond series bow and would feel comfortable shooting anything on this continent with it
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I haven't been doing this long, but it seems to me like there are too many factors to only consider draw weight...
That and asking such a question on an internet forum is like asking your buddies if you should get married... if you haven't made up your own mind on your own accord, the answer should be "no."
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Since my first post I have now witnessed two additional arow strikes on a medium-large coastal Brown Bear. Both shot were with a 50# recurve, 2018's, and a heavy non-vented 3 blade at 15-18 yards. The first arrow hit square on the shoulder blade and actually penetrated the bone and got one lung (the shoulder was unfortunately back at the impact).
The second arrow easily penerated the rib cage with no issues what so ever. Unfortunately the second arrow wasn't the first (I'm convinced it would have died in 30 yards) and the bear enetered the woods over the top of us and the release of lead was entervening between arrows.
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Thanks Steve for the help have a great day
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Hard to second guess a couple of folks who have spent several years with this. I would say their experience is more valuable than those of us who want to do this but haven't yet. Sounds like 50# is just plenty if the proper arrow is used and shooting is good.
Good luck.
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"That and asking such a question on an internet forum is like asking your buddies if you should get married... if you haven't made up your own mind on your own accord, the answer should be "no." " now thats funny! I dont know if 50# will do it but whatever you decide - make sure you can draw it AND shoot it while you are just about to crap your pants!
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A guy I know shot clean thru one with a 54# fox breed recruve and cedar arrow. I would say you should be fine, heavy arrow sharp broad head and put the arrow behind the shoulder in the ribs.
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(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/321138_1982758170582_1292056621_31620919_105691428_n.jpg)
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60lbs liberty chief longbow, tapered doug fir arrow 2 blade zwickey eskimo....double lung didnt penetrate the off side shoulder, rolled the tip, bear ran 75-80 yards. Shot on sept 17th 2011.
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Originally posted by AkDan:
60lbs liberty chief longbow, tapered doug fir arrow 2 blade zwickey eskimo....double lung didnt penetrate the off side shoulder, rolled the tip, bear ran 75-80 yards. Shot on sept 17th 2011.
What a bear :clapper:
Congratulations!
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Now that's what I like to see, results!
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Way to go, beautiful hide !
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I'm lovin' that too.nice job and great picture,AkDan.
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thanks for the help guys with the way the times are now it might never happen but keep shooting till one day i go for the hunt of a life time
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Fred Eichler wrote a article about taking bears with a bow in bowhunter mag. He took his bears including griz and polar with a 54 lb palmer recurve. If you pick your shot and are close and have the right arrow, broadhead you should not have a problem. Go read his article and take his first hand knowledge on all the bears and you will see it's all about placement, bears are thin skinned and can be taken with the lighter bows.
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This is a great thread with a ton of good info :thumbsup:
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Great thread and good reading. AKDan, that is a beautiful bear! :thumbsup:
Having hunted black bears for many, many years with 46-48 pound recurves, I'm not sure what to think. Every year there a tons of huge blacks taken with very light trad bows, yet blacks don't have the reputation and temperament of the grizzly (for the most part anyway).
I guess my gut feeling is 50 is enough if, like everyone else has mentioned, it's put right in the boiler room. Just like almost any other animal, if you were shooting a 80 pound bow and didn't put it where it needed to be, it's not going to have done you much good either.
Very interesting thread with lots of good advice offered by some very experienced hunters.
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Make sure you take someone with you, that you can out run.
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Originally posted by amazonjim:
Make sure you take someone with you, that you can out run.
:laughing:
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Man you guys are making me want to go hunt bear.
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50 pd bow with a sharp broadhead will do the job just fine; its shoot placement . How calm a person can remain under stress is the key.
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I think I'm not goin there!
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I'd say your setup is plenty if shots are kept close, I would go with the heaviest arrows that will tune in your bow, and a stout 2 blade single bevel broadhead. I took a grizzly a couple weeks ago with a 60# recurve, 750 grain (total weight) Easton FMJ arrows, and a Grizzly broadhead. 14 yard shot, broadside with the far leg back. Complete penetration, both lungs, came out through the front of the far leg, and he only went 40 yards. Green scored 25 7/16", squared 8'9"
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Here is a photo of that bear: (http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/tylerfreel85/IMG_05981.jpg) (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/tylerfreel85/media/IMG_05981.jpg.html)
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Congrats on the trophy of a lifetime! Great picture!
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I want one. Maybe two.
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Great bear! Was it your first grizzly?
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Thanks! it was my first interior grizzly, and first grizzly/brown with a bow (I got a brown bear last year with a rifle, so this one definitely means a lot more to me!)
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Originally posted by Q73:
Man you guys are making me want to go hunt bear.
I've always wanted to as well.
All I can say is you had better move to Alaska and hunt "resident style" unless you have a very, very fat bank account!
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I believe the hardest thing to do with wanting to use a 50# bow for grizzly is finding a guide that would be willing to take you. He will be the one that has to go after it after the shot.
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My hat's off to anyone that will hunt Grizzly with a Stickbow.....I have never tried it. So I have no input on the specifics other than.....I think the hardest part would be to keep the nerves under control in order to make a good shot. I don't rattle easy....but Grizzly Bear....sure wouldn't want to just make him mad.
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I shot a very large brown bear with a 51# Schafer recurve, 600 grain fmj with an abowyer brown bear head. Complete penetration at 14 yards.
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Great bear!