Trad Gang
Main Boards => Dangerous Game => Topic started by: capt eddie on February 06, 2011, 05:28:00 PM
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My son and I are going to bear hunt off the ground in Manitoba in June. Every year that I have been there They have had bears charge the boats and hunters are able to harvest there bear. The management admit that the bear seem to be getting more aggresive towards hunter and the boats. While waiting for the evening pickup I have had bear within 10 yards and refused to leave while yelled and hollered at them. Only when the boat and lights hit it did they move off. The question is if we should use 12ga slug of 000 buckshot? Last year we were charged by a 250# boar that found our bear before we did. One slug in the shoulder stopped it but did not kill it. Three more slugs in the shoulder finily killed it That experience makes me think about 12 38cal to the head and chest would be better. Thank you for your input.
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I've been around some aggressive bears but nothing like that. How do the CO's handle killing those bears? Pepper spray would be my first choice but you probably can't fly with it. If it was a gun I would go with a 12 gage and slug barrel with OO buck shot. I normally prefer slugs but you likely won't be as accurate in a situation like that.
Good luck.
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We bought a tag for my wife and took it home.
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A lot of guys up here use what they call salt and pepper loads,ie slug, buck, slug ,buck, Birdshot, birdshot. If the slugs and buskshot doesn't stop him at least the birdshot will tear his face off.
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I have never tried it, but I would imagine double ought buckshot would tear a bears head up pretty quick. I sure would rather have that than birdshot if things got out of hand.
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Late May-early June is mating season for Black bears across most of Canada. What you are seeing is territorial displays. A twelve with buck/slugs alternating isn't a bad plan if it makes you feel better, but realistically a blast of pepper spray will do the job without killing it.
A 250lb'er in Manitoba sounds like a two and a half year old boar feeling his oats...
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Bearspray has been proven to be just as effective and combined with the length of time it takes to get a gun in hand and aimed I'd take the spray instead. Also who wants to be lugging around a shotgun.... they get heavy afer awhile.
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Bear Spray have proven to be ineffective at times with a highly incensed bear that is charging. Some of the time it simply pisses the bear off even more. While effective Bear Spray is not 100%. Where as a slug to the brain case or buckshot to the same spot at close range resolves the problem.
If your forced to defend yourself aim at the head. If you shoot high you hit spine, if you shoot low you hit vitals. If you hit right on top of the head the bear will drop in its tracks. Don't stop shooting until the bear is down. Immediately start reloading and backing up. They have been known to get back up after dropping.
When I hunt and fish Alaska I carry a 12 guage riot gun with a smooth bore. Never load buckshot into a slug barrel. It messes up the rifling and screws up the shot pattern. Loadings are slug - slug - buckshot - buckshot - buckshot.
My grandad once told me if your think you might need a firearm you do. Don't have that firearm when you need it just once and your frequently dead. If your dealing with agressive bears instead of the normal ones we see in the lower 48 I would stick to a firearm and leave the bear spray for less agressive animals.
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We plan on taking turns hunting from a deafall and the other person in a stand. The stander will have the shotgun backing up the ground hunter. I think this will be the safest for both party but still get the rush of being up close and personal with the bear.
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We plan on taking turns hunting from a deafall and the other person in a stand. The stander will have the shotgun backing up the ground hunter. I think this will be the safest for both party but still get the rush of being up close and personal with the bear.
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That is not a particularly good idea. If your hunting together do it from the ground. Way to easy to hit the hunter from above while swinging on a bear in charge. Definately load only slugs if you do this. Buckshot can spread and make it even more likely for the back up shooter to hit the hunter. Will the back up be directly above you or off to the side? Neither is good. Off to the side could be border line suicidal.
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You didn't mentioned that one hunter is going to stand guard while the other hunts, that does change things a bit from carrying the gun on your back.
If you're going to go for the shotgun approach I'd suggest doing some serious practising with it. Set up a running targer and get good at that too. See the problem with a firearm is ya gotta HIT your target and if you're not damned good with the gun the spray is the way to go.
sounds like a fun hunt however you do it!
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00 buck doesn't penetrate worth beans, low energy ft lbs, and those little balls have terrible sectional density. Yes you have more margin of error, but half the stopping power. if you want to stop a bear use a heavy slug ie. 1 1/4oz
Especially if your going to have it in the tree, (not the best plan) single projectile is the way to go. .
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I don't have any particular ax to grind here just trying to help out...so I don't want this to turn into another pi$$ing match as often happens when we start to discuss firearms and stopping capabilities. Something of a "my dad can beat your dad thing." So I'll say what I know and bow out of the conversation.
One of my hunting pals used to be on predator patrol for parks canada and has shot over 500 bears now he trains the new recruits. So he's got the background to offer a valid opinion. Coupled with the fact that he did his University thesis on bear behaviour I place a lot of trust in his opinions. I doubt anyone here has shot that many bears if they have then their opinion has a lot of weight too.
I asked him one day "how well does buckshot work on bears?" His reply was "out to 40 yards it flattens them." He loads his shot gun with the usualy array of slugs and buckshot and can unload the whole tube in 3 seconds so that's a hell of a lot of lead flying, whether it's slugs or buckshot.
I asked him specifically what the average joe should use and he says unless you've trained with slugs a lot the buckshot is the way to go. I've seen the training course that he runs for the new parks guys and it's pretty intense, more of a military excercise than anything else. They get a pass or fail by the way and aren't allowed to do certain work until they can pass the test.
I also know an outfitter who caters to a lot of bowhunters and his camp is in a great spot for color phased bears by the way. Anyway I asked him what he uses for going after wounded bears and he says "hands down a 12 guage with buckshot."
I also asked the parks guy about bear spray and he said "it works very well. He didn't put a percentage of effectivness on it and no one can. Is it 80% or 99% heck I don't know! I do know that it's a lot faster to get to than a shotty and easier to carry hence as hunters we will have it on hand more often. Also for close stuff it's easier to deploy.
Do I care what you carry? Not at all suit yourself and practise with what you use and be profecient with it.
An additional point. If you see a bear and shoot it at 40 yards that aint self defence and neither is it if you shoot him in a tree it's just "blasting a bear."
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I've been guiding since 1985 and have guided over 700 guests. Been chased twice and ended it very quickly with any of the buckshots available. Even getting shot with AAA is like getting shot with 32 .22 mags. at once. It's devistating. I have had some wounded bears that were quickly dispatched with ssg, sg, and aaa. I always figured, if I had to use my shotgun for any reason, it was going to be needed quickly and I needed a pattern or killing bullets, rather than one well placed slug, which I most likely won't have time for, especially in the dark
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Interesting. When I saw the topic, I thought-not at all necessary for the black bears I've seen or hunted-what are these guys thinking about? Now I know. Thanks for the insight.
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something to consider 00 buckshot .33 diameter 12 pellets per load ; #4 buckshot .25 diameter 27 pellets per load= absolutely devastating at close range
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Dixie slug co. has what they call Tri-Ball ammo for your 12ga. which consist of 3 320gr. heat treated balls. From their test it shows a 5 inch group out to 40 yards, should be a wicked up close and personel self defense round.
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This topic has been argued about for years and it will continue to be argued over for a long time to come... Just like arrow selection, everyone seems to have an opinion about what is best, but what really matters is, "Can you hit your target when and where it counts?"
I'm required to carry a 12 ga. or a .375 everyday of the summer for work. I like 1 3/8 ounce black magic slugs from the pump, but I prefer the rifle.
But I don't want to post anything about guns and bears without this warning:
While firearms definitely have their place in grizzly bear country, don't let the false security of a firearm change your behavior! It is easy to say, but hard to do. I constantly find myself moving with less purpose and being less observant when carrying a gun.
Not only that, but bears, and especially black bears, bluff (including bluff charge) a lot. Sure "shooting first and asking questions later" is usually the best way to go if a bear is within 10 yards and closing the distance, but avoiding the charge in the first place shows the most respect for the animal, for bowhunting, and for oneself.
That and don't be "bearanoid." If you are expecting to be charged, something is wrong with the way you view bears, or with the bear-human relationship in your hunting area.
The scenario painted by the original poster (bears regularly charging boats and people) suggests that the outfitter in the area is mismanaging his clients/guides and/or his waste/baiting stations. Frequent and regular bear attacks are not normal and are highly undesirable. I would find a new place to hunt because something is wrong at that camp.
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Well said, Tracks.
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I have to agree with calgarychef. Take some 00 buck out and shoot it into some material, plywood or whatever you can find and watch what it is does it's deadly. If you have to shoot a bear it will be close and 00buck will certainly work. Just make sure you practice your shooting under pressure. Run in place or around in circles and get your heart rate up then pick up the gun and see what you can do, good luck.
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So everyone is talking Canadian bears? or are all black bears that dangerous? We have black bears here in Cali but the guys Iv'e talked to that have run into them while deer hunting say they usually run away from you, but with my luck I would run into the bad mood bear!
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I had one bad news bear on my land a few years ago. He was old, big (about six feet on his back legs), and he knew he was the baddest thing in the woods. He chased me, and neighbors, out of the woods numerous times. I saw my closest neighbor hit him with a load of buck at close range as the bear was walking towards his kids in their swimming pool. That bear started roaring n snarling, spinning n snapping like you wouldn't believe. For smaller bears I'm sure buck works. But with the big guys, I'd like to tote something that would be appropriate to hunt them with no exceptions.
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When you have all the time in the world to pick your shot my favorite is still a heavy load slug. But, when conditions are dicey and speed is of the essence you probably won't go wrong with high energy buckshot. Several years ago, our agency began using low-velocity slugs and buckshot (the prevailing thought among LE at the time was to prevent wall pas-throughs to avoid hitting innocents in another room). Unfortunately, my 870 was loaded with that type of ammo when I had a true charge situation from a black bear. The one slug penetrated 2" while all the buckshot ended up under the hide. It was my partners 40 S&W that eventually killed the bear. I lodged a complaint with the Chief and we got rid of the low-vel junk. Take the meanest, hardest hitting ammo you can buy!
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An update on our bear hunt. The first night that we got to hunt, we picked differant stands because they had both been hit. Since this was my sons first chance to see a live bear. I suggested that he get in the stand to see what if feels like to have a beqar that closes. we were the first hunters of the year. So they had only scented the guides coming in and out. He is in the stand that is 8 foot high at the most. Barrel is 12 yards away. Two black bear come in. One goes to the barrel and starts to eat. The other bear come up to the stand bluff charging several times. It even puts a paw on the ladder. The whole time the other bear has his head inthe barrel. My son kicks and the bear and trys the run in off or at least get inaway from the stand for a shoot. Twice it ran past the eating bear but the bear paid no mind. Just went back to eatting. The bear finely stops eatting and offers a broadside. He made a perfect shot with a 53# recurve, carbon arrow with a snoffer. Bear traveled 50 yards. i on the other hand, was bluff charged every day I was in the stand. it was a young bear that knew that something was there, Everytime he would come within 10 feet of the stand. I was holding out for a color or something larger then my orther bears. Finely on the last night to hunt, the bear came in again. I decided to shoot it ths time. I was shooting a 60# longbow with a 160 grizzly. 600 grain arrow total. As I draw he took a step, He was so close that i was looking at the claws on his foot in awe of the details, And that is exactly where I hit.. Now the rest of the story. The first night that i was getting out of the boat, I had my bow strung in a case. I opened the case to retreive what I thought was a 74# Acadian Wood Treestick. It was there but A 4 piece takedown instead of a three piece. I just could not figure out how to REATTACH an Antler tip!!!!!. My son left me his bow while he and the guide motored back to camp and delivered my a set of 60# limbs to go on my riser. he guides have all noticed that the bears ar far more aggressive now then in years past. So we did not have to worry about shotgun choices.
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what Daz said.
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This won't answer your question,but for me the point of hunting dangerous game is danger in it,a good reason I got into traditional hunting is the fact that it evens the fields up a little. So they can take you as easily as you took it. This is just MY opinion and doesnt apply to a lot of peaple,I don't have a wife/ kids to worry about.
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Having a backup 12 ga with alternating 000 buck and heavy slugs (think 3 1/2" chamber) also the .460 Rowland is a viable sidearm in those locations.
ALso, congrats to your son! Sounds like a great time that you had together.
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I have seen this type of question all over the internet, at hunting camps, and at the range. All I can add is that it comes down to a choice. Whether to pack additional heat as a side arm for a traditional (-list). My answer is simple, how pure do you want your experience to be? I equate this to the those that say wooden arrows vs carbon? For me, the main reason I am embarking into Trad Archery is for the experience. And if I chose to hunt for dangerous game with traditional gear, then, sobeit. It has made me a better hunter and the experience that more fulfilling. And just in case anyone was thinking, yes I have hunted in dangerous country with both archery and firearms. And have stalked many bears and killed two on the ground after a very fulfilling experience. Not that killing one treed or from a stand is any less for some. :archer2:
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Disclaimer:::
The removeable antler it is not the fault of Tim Mullins the Bowyer. I bought the limbs second hand and I had replaced the tip after it coming off a year before. Tim did rework the limbs and replace the tip with my Amazon wood at no charge to me. And for that I do thank Tim for his time and effort.
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Originally posted by Iron Man2:
I have seen this type of question all over the internet, at hunting camps, and at the range. All I can add is that it comes down to a choice. Whether to pack additional heat as a side arm for a traditional (-list). My answer is simple, how pure do you want your experience to be? I equate this to the those that say wooden arrows vs carbon? For me, the main reason I am embarking into Trad Archery is for the experience. And if I chose to hunt for dangerous game with traditional gear, then, sobeit. I will hunt with a traditional recurve and no firearm. It has made me a better hunter and the experience that more fulfilling. And just in case anyone was thinking, yes I have hunted in dangerous country in both archery and firearms seasons, independently. And have stalked many bears and killed two on the ground after a very fulfilling experience. Not that killing one treed or from a stand is any less for some. :archer2:
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I suppose you could call a bear rushing an elevated stand a bluff charge. Black bears do it all the time to each other. Which is what I've always thought the bear thinks a hunter in a treestand is - another bear that’s afraid of them.
I wouldn't get too worried about it. Heck they could climb up and sniff my foot and I still wouldn't think I needed a backup firearm. If it's an excuse to buy a gun then do it. Better yet if your worried about such things like this then get a can of bear spray and stop worrying.
Bears are just plain fun to watch as they interact with each other. They deserve respect but don't deserve getting needlessly shot unless they are truly in your face and you know without doubt they mean business which is extremely rare.
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I'd definitely go with the back up and since the bear will be getting closer if it charges I see no need for slugs just 00 or 000 buck. I've been charged by blackies and followed some up in some not so good situations. I've also been ambushed by one cat and had another try it. I am first and foremost a hunter and I like all weapons, I've chosen to go back to traditional archery for the challenge although my profession is building hunting handguns which of course are not an option in Canada. I decided a long time ago that no amount of purism was worth taking a chance on my life and even before OR legalized carrying a side arm while bowhunting I was carrying. I carry either a 3.5" 44spcl loaded with hardcast bullets or I carry a 45LC. I build guns that make those look like toys up to monsters producing 5000ftlbs of muzzle energy. I chose to carry the smaller handguns because of controlability. You can have the biggest cannon in the world but if you can't handle it or can't get back on target fast enough for a follow up it's useless. I say have the back up gun and just make sure whoever is using it can handle it. A quick little story about buckshot though to keep you from taking things for granted. About 25 years ago I shot a blacktail doe with buckshot at about 30yds just to do something different. The deer dropped at the shot and I dragged her back to the truck to field dress her as it was only a couple hundred yards. I had heard some noise that I wrote off to gas being expelled but as soon as I started to spread the legs to open her up she came to life. I had to fall on top of her to keep from getting kicked to pieces. Fortunately my uncle was there but he couldn't do much because of all the thrashing but he finally severed her neck with a hatchet. That was a 125lb deer so if you have to put a bear down don't assume the buckshot will be fatal just because it goes down, pay the insurance.
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"I decided a long time ago that no amount of purism was worth taking a chance on my life and even before OR legalized carrying a side arm while bowhunting I was carrying."
Well said wapitrod. This year I will be carrying a 2" Ruger Alaskan in a .454 with 360gr. bullets. I hope I never have to use it in self defense, but it is a comforting thought to know its with me for the "just in case" moments.
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ak3, that's a perfect weapon for a back up. I build hunting handguns for a living and the 454 is one of my favorite rounds even though in revolvers I go up to the 500 (510) Linebaugh and Max and my single shots so far I've gone as big as the 458 Lott. I've seen alot of people underestimate the killing power of a handgun just like they do with recurves and longbows but I've built handguns that would make alot of rifles cry. That 458 single shot makes over 5000ftlbs of muzzle energy and will stop anything and everything up to and including T-Rex.
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wapitirod, do you have a web site?
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yep it's dixiefirearms.net
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This has been an interesting thread to read and re the original question, I guess it's a mute point now but I can add this as a postscript... I've bear hunted from the ground a few years back in Manitoba, 11 yards from the bait. Most nights I was surrounded by bears yet never felt threatened by any of them except one ... A younger bear that bluffed/charged the entire night. He was a cocky little bugger. Finally after he got within a step or two of me, showing his teeth and puffing away, I gave him one last chance to back off when I yelled at him. When he didn't, I gave him a snoot full of spray. Never saw him again. :p
I hunted in Alberta this past spring and when I asked my outfitter about doing it from the ground, without hesitation he said, "No." Looking back it was probably a good thing. I never saw so many bears in all my life. It was absolutely amazing. Best bear hunt I've ever been on and I hope to go back again next spring.
Great thread to read with lots of info and advice. Enjoyed it.
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I would load a slug,00 buck and then instead of bird shot I would go with #4 buck shot. I would feel very confident with my M1S90 at the ready.
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Lot's of good opinions. We have a lot of bear's here on Vancouver Island. Just ran into one walking the dog a few weeks ago.
Here is what I do: 12 gauge (18.5") loaded with one slug and the rest buckshot. Chamber is empty with safety off.
Why is the chamber empty and safety off? In a PANIC situation (Bear charging you without warning) it will be difficult to have the where with all to release the safety with a thumb versus just quickly pumping a round into the chamber.
The reason I only use one slug and the rest shot is because the several bear charging stories I have heard is that if it happens it often happens very fast. Thus, after the fist slug is shot it's more about pray and spray (while aiming) and hoping for the best.
It's thick bush up here and running into a bear at 10 yards happens!
RE: Back up shooter in a tree. I personally would not be comfortable with this. I would want a back up shooter pretty much right behind me. I'd hit the deck if charged knowing my backup is reliable and right behind me, close!
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It may be a great idea to actually shoot and pattern the gun if you use buckshot so you know exactly how large of a pattern you have, if there are two of you. Is it 1' wide or 10' wide, at 30 yards and at a reasonably close range. As Calgary chef points out, if it ain't close when you shoot it, you may have to face the wardens.
Good luck whatever you use.
ChuckC
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Rifle 7mm or better
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If I was in an area where I truly feared bears I would choose a shotgun with slugs or OO over bear spray everytime, I'd even prefer a revolver over the pepper spray. What if the wind is blowing hard into your face? And sometimes it just pisses the bear off. Unless pepper spray was the only legal bear defense I'd carry a firearm.
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I guess that I come from a different school. Most of my experience has been with brown bears rather than blacks. My prefered weapon was a short barreled .375 H&H. On the rare occasion I carried a shotgun, the first round was a magnum load of 7 1/2 birdshot. If the bear was close enough for me to feel the need to shoot it, the birdshot did great for a first shot, it was followed by a full magazine of slugs.
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I've only had a black bear charge once and had no guns or pepper spray. Luckily he wasn't too insistant on eating me and 1 arrow into him made him turn and run off into the woods.
If I were carrying a shotgun I'd opt for the slug but that's just my opinion. Some shotgun areas and states don't allow buckshot for deer because of the lack of accuracy and imediate killing power. For that reason I don't trust em.
If you decide on pepper spray make sure you get good pepper spray. Not all of those are created equal and some are not as strong as others.
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Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
When I hunt and fish Alaska I carry a 12 guage riot gun with a smooth bore. Never load buckshot into a slug barrel. It messes up the rifling and screws up the shot pattern. Loadings are slug - slug - buckshot - buckshot - buckshot.
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shooting shot out of a rifled barrel will result in a wide circle shaped pattern, not good bear medicine.
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Maine black bear, on ground w/longbow, no back up. That was the whole point for me.
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Slug guns today pack an amazing amount of kinetic energy and are extremely accurate to boot you can easily hold a 2 inch group at 100 yards with one so 15 feet should be a chip shot deff use slugs I personally wouldn't alternate rounds ie buckshot slug buckshot slug plus in most states your limited on how many rounds your gun can hold while afield my advice would be to train train train and what I mean by that is don't just assume you can pick up that weapon and put rounds on target in rapid succession most people in a shtf scenario lock up and it usually ends bad train your mind practice trigger control and if these bears are this aggressive I would have my back up locked and loaded and on target before I ever took a shot with a bow stay safe out there n remember they make specific rounds for specific animals God bless let us know what you decide
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Something to think about. The lead used in buckshot is of a very soft antimony. Low antimony, soft lead, has a bad habit of splattering upon striking a hard surface such as the thick skull of a bear, grizzly in particular. With a black bear this is less of an issue but still present in the big Cannuck bears. The .38 cal 00 buck was designed for thin skinned deer and humans. It also has very little weight thus penetration is limited.
While this is true also for most lead slugs, a slug does have the advantage of mass. Add in a hardened slug or solid and it's your best bet.
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If you aren't planning on going out with anyone and I would recommend a 44 Magnum or a 454 Kassul. Those are about the most realistic options you've got for a handgun that won't get in the way like a shotgun will or a huge revolver like a .500 S&W