Post by: Txnrog on January 23, 2014, 02:04:00 AM
Done all the reading, ashby, andy, etc, but still have several questions.
I am basically going to be working to put together 3 setups
1) 64# @ 31" Rampart Recurve - My go to elk bow
2) Low-Mid 70's @ 31" longbow that I am having built - have an excuse, and not totally sold that the 64# is ideal (I can shoot fine in the low 70's, so why not take advantage of it)
3) 55-60lb compound for my Dad (blasphemy I know, but he's in his upper 70's and is not there with trad gear). Hoping to get a similar arrow setup to one of mine with a couple modifications to properly tune. Figure the bow will probably have similar if not more energy than mine, so using the same concepts of strong FOC, 2 blade heads, single bevel, etc will help him over a 'common' compound setup for buffalo.
Since the 64# is in my hands I have been playing with that. Got it shooting 915gr arrows (CX 350's Weight tubes, 250 gr head), and they tuned well, but not happy with the FOC or broadhead options that weight. Have thought about trying Easton FMG DG 300's with a 300gr or 315gr head as an alternative - slightly less deflection so should allow a little more weight up front to help FOC. I always liked the FMJ's narrow, slick shaft and composite design.
First question: Has anyone produced a commercial internal footing? The reading has me concerned about snapping an arrow behind the head (especially if I go with hidden inserts on the FMJ's) I like the idea of an internal to get the weight up front and allow a little more reasonability in spine without increasing diameter. If not, are there any good sources to learn how to make an internal footing?
Second: Is VPA single bevel in production? I already shoot VPAs and think they are stout and great head, but would like to go with a single bevel.
Third: How much FOC is sufficient? I read about HFOR, EFOC, UFOC, but there are limits within reasonable ability to tune. What should I be looking for as a baseline before I chunk a shaft and start on a stiffer option.
Any and all advice appreciated.
Post by: ozy clint on January 23, 2014, 04:58:00 AM
PM if interested.
Post by: Txnrog on January 23, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Also, have seen a couple poor reviews of some of the high end single bevels anyone with such experience, please PM me so I know why to watch out for.
Thanks,
Roger
Post by: damascusdave on January 24, 2014, 05:30:00 AM
DDave
Post by: pdk25 on January 24, 2014, 05:49:00 PM
Post by: Txnrog on January 24, 2014, 10:26:00 PM
Will most likely go with a screw on - never really trust the glue ons for some reason. Plus gives me a little optionality
Post by: pdk25 on January 24, 2014, 11:01:00 PM
Post by: Michael Baker on January 26, 2014, 07:49:00 AM
Cheers
Mick
Post by: hybridbow hunter on January 26, 2014, 04:06:00 PM
It Is really tough.
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/image_zps1b54c72f.jpg) (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/hybridbowhunter/media/image_zps1b54c72f.jpg.html)
Post by: pdk25 on January 26, 2014, 11:29:00 PM
Post by: Michael Baker on January 27, 2014, 05:54:00 PM
Post by: Blaino on January 27, 2014, 07:23:00 PM
It has worked for a lot of bowhunters. Why not you?
Post by: pdk25 on January 27, 2014, 11:21:00 PM
Post by: Michael Baker on January 28, 2014, 01:20:00 AM
Widowmaker arrows outserts and broadhead
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/trophybowhunts/image_zpse9e14d94.jpeg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/trophybowhunts/image_zpsea7b4004.jpeg
Cheers
Mick
Post by: calgarychef on January 28, 2014, 12:41:00 PM
Post by: hybridbow hunter on January 28, 2014, 05:42:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by pdk25:Those were made by a friend working in tool building. Very strong. If you add external footing it´s really impressive the punishment you must give to brake a shaft. Using titanium same insert will be much lighter in the 110 gr plus you can cut it down if needed.
Laurent, where did you order those? I don't know anything about A4 steel. Are they much better than standard steel inserts? If the inserts hold up, those would be awesome.
I am sure a company like VPA could build very easily those insert, solid steel or titanium for a fair price, as there is no threads nor complicate shape. I can't understand why there is so strongly designed and we'll made broadheds glued on so poor brass ou aluminum inserts
Post by: Txnrog on January 29, 2014, 12:51:00 AM
Looking forward to it. Working on putting together a heavier setup, and hitting the rubber bands nightly.
Post by: Michael Baker on January 29, 2014, 01:48:00 AM
Post by: ozy clint on January 30, 2014, 10:33:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:good for extra weight upfront but no strength gains over a standard screw in adapter since the shank on those are the same diameter as a screw in adapter straight off the back of the taper, which is the likely failure point along with the back of the footing.
You can ask for custom A4 steel insert as infernal footing. Mine are 200 gr, HIT size and goes perfectly in tuffheads. I could cut the tail a tad to go down to 150 gr
It Is really tough.
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/image_zps1b54c72f.jpg) (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/hybridbowhunter/media/image_zps1b54c72f.jpg.html)
better go and take pics of my supadapters............
Post by: ozy clint on January 30, 2014, 11:10:00 PM
they are designed for use with tuffheads. they have a taper slightly larger than 23/64" (little bit bigger than the 23/64" ferrule of the tuffhead) then step down to match an axis shaft's outside diameter. this maximises strength at the back of the BH. then it steps down to HIT insert diameter. the last portion is able to be trimmed if weight needs to be brought down. they are machined from high tensile steel.
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_6777_zpse43b072e.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_6777_zpse43b072e.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_6778_zpsba3ffa54.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_6778_zpsba3ffa54.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_6779_zps41e6a69f.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_6779_zps41e6a69f.jpg.html)
(http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/ozyclint/IMG_6780_zps425b5f85.jpg) (http://s530.photobucket.com/user/ozyclint/media/IMG_6780_zps425b5f85.jpg.html)
in my oppinion you want the rear of the footing to be behind the balance point of the arrow. this way the center of mass has NO leverage on that point. the rear of the footing is being dragged into the beast. this is why i have a 6.75" outside footing. this serves the purpose of adding weight, strengthening and stiffening the shaft since i have 730gr upfront out of a 70# border black douglas. even on a full length shaft the flexible portion is around 25" long. basically a 25" arrow with an 8" point. then you can still trim as normal.
Post by: pdk25 on January 30, 2014, 11:11:00 PM
Post by: pdk25 on January 30, 2014, 11:14:00 PM
Post by: hybridbow hunter on February 01, 2014, 09:03:00 AM
The set up you show is interesting though but very heavy point !!
Post by: Muz1970 on February 04, 2014, 08:37:00 PM
I've been tuning full length Goldtip Traditional shafts in 75/95(300). I'm using the Outback 220 FE broadheads, 100gn brass insert, 3 x 50gn weights and 5" of 2213 footing for 520grains up front. This gives me 26.5% FOC and 910gn total weight.
Adjusting the length of the footing once I got the weight up front I wanted was the only way I could tune the spine. Due to the fact that I cannot shorten the 32" arrow length.
I really like the idea / concept of Ozy Clints super adaptors. It would also give you the opportunity to shorten your arrows if required for tuning.
Cheers Muz
Post by: Txnrog on February 04, 2014, 09:51:00 PM
Got Gold Tip Kenetic 200's shooting well with it and 300gr heads. I am also ordering some Easton FMJ big game 250's to play with - I like those slick narrow shafts.
I really like the insert on the Gold tip's but they are aluminum (they also fit the Easton FMJ's) - talking to a guy about having some similar machined with steel and an extended length to act as an internal footing, Then going with an external aluminum footing.
I want the FMJ's but with their gpi weight, think I am ultimately going to have to go with the lighter, stiffer gold tips to get the FOC without creating lawn darts in the process.
Shooting for 800gr or so, but we'll see what works- my 915 gr CX 350's dropped about 2 ft @ 15yrds compared to the 720 +/- Goldtip 200's - which zipped out quicker than my deer/elk setups.
Muz - good to know that 5" of footing can have that big an impact on spine.
Post by: Muz1970 on February 05, 2014, 12:57:00 AM
The extra penetration from the 910 grains verses the 780 grain arrow shot into the end of a tight bale of hay is sum 4-6". I've only shot them out to 15 yards but are spot on. Now I have to make a matched field point set to practice with.
Not that it matters but I'm curious to find out the arrow speed out of my bow at that weight. Will hopefully borrow a mates chrono.
Post by: hybridbow hunter on February 07, 2014, 01:39:00 PM
http://traditionalarcherysolutions.bubbaspc.com/traditionalarcherysolutions/shopping.asp
Post by: hybridbow hunter on February 07, 2014, 01:58:00 PM
Post by: Txnrog on February 18, 2014, 10:10:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:Just placed an order - eyeing getting something like Ozzy Clint's made as well.
Googleing a bit you can find in USA strong steel custom insert not that pricey:
http://traditionalarcherysolutions.bubbaspc.com/traditionalarcherysolutions/shopping.asp
Post by: ozy clint on February 19, 2014, 06:08:00 AM
even spine differences between axis shafts means the 1st step needs to be a different diameter to suit the OD of the shaft.
it's something that needs to be custom made.
impossible to come up with a totally universal one while having the most optimised design for any given combo of BH and shaft.
what's the point of going to the trouble of making bombproof buff arrows if it isn't the best design possible.
Post by: Txnrog on February 21, 2014, 01:24:00 AM
Goldtip Kenetic 200's (.200 spine)
100 gr insert
250 gr head
7 inches of xx75 2016 footing
dummied up the insert with screw in weights to practice while I have some steel ones made - half-in-half out screw ins. I really like the idea of a screw in since it gives me some optionality and is a bit easier to travel with.
A tad over 800gr total weight.
Would like to be at 300gr on the broadhead, giving 850gr total weight, but I'm a tad weak with those, and the 250's fly like darts. Could always go a tad longer on the footing, but that feels like overkill to me. Pretty decent selection of broadheads at 250 as well (abowyer, VPA, etc.)
Post by: ozy clint on February 21, 2014, 04:30:00 AM
Post by: Txnrog on February 21, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
Correction xx75 2013 footing
Post by: Fanto on March 06, 2014, 05:36:00 AM
His internal footing is a 7" long 1/4" Ida dowel, sanded down a little from the middle back, glued in behind the insert and only glued the first 3.5"
Post by: calgarychef on March 06, 2014, 10:14:00 AM
Have you bare shafted them and tested your groups? Don't forget that arrow flight trumps everything, and an arrow that looks like its flying nicely might not be striking nicely.
Post by: Txnrog on March 10, 2014, 11:55:00 PM
Grouping is so-so, but I am still working myself into the bow. Group fine when I do my part. The A&H shoots to the right on me, but I understand that's a common problem since they are more center cut than most.
I am getting 170fps or so, actually want to get the arrow weight up a bit, but think it'd require me to extend the footing even moreso to do it.
Post by: calgarychef on March 11, 2014, 11:54:00 AM
Post by: Al Kidner on March 11, 2014, 04:57:00 PM
Post by: Al Kidner on March 11, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
Post by: ozy clint on March 11, 2014, 06:51:00 PM
Post by: Txnrog on March 11, 2014, 11:44:00 PM
I left one bare so I could watch if my form is faltering with the additional weight of the bow. Currently without fail, I start out about 3-6 inches right and work myself back in. I am about 6ft, have a pretty deep anchor, but had someone work with me early on and that's where it settled.
Ozzy - You think I will gain any significant performance/penetration with another 100gr or so?
Post by: ozy clint on March 12, 2014, 03:12:00 AM
Post by: ozzyshane on March 16, 2014, 02:58:00 AM
Have you tryed to build out the riser a bit i would say you are still under spined a bit that is why when you start shooting you go to the right(a strong shot) but after a few you hit middle that is i bet when you get a bit tired you may be short drawing a bit.
Thanks Shane
Post by: Txnrog on March 21, 2014, 12:59:00 AM
Battling a bit with trying to tune and get used to the weight at the same time.
Getting closer to 'comfortable' with it, but still not as consistent as I know I can shoot.
I may be able to get away with shortening the arrow by about an inch - been going with full lengths so far @ 32 in. I would really like to get a little more weight in these arrows and trying to figure out how to stiffen them even more. May play with the footing a bit more, though it already feels long and hasn't stiffened it like I would think it should.
Post by: halfseminole on March 25, 2014, 12:31:00 PM
I shoot whenever I can with heads like that, and I'm finally dropping the coin to try and make them, but mine won't probably be ready for a long time. My point is, with their tuning and durability advantages, I prefer that type of point over anything else. If it worked for fully armored humans, it might help you guys, too.
Post by: Txnrog on April 03, 2014, 12:55:00 AM
Well, he undershot the weight but sent them to me to try out along with another heavy set of the older design he had in stock. Dropped 8lbs in draw weight and picked up the exact same performance as my current limbs - pretty darn decent trade off. The 66lb, 63lb, and new 58lb limbs all shot within 5fps of each other using my 815 gr arrow - between 170 and 175 fps. Keep in mind I'm picking up another 4-5lbs at my draw length.
Gonna monkey with the setup one more time, but think I am pretty close - need another 50gr up front to have the best selection of broadheads and the addtl weight can't hurt if I can get it to fly right. Once I get confirmation that my inserts are gonna be ready, I can move onto broadhead selection.
Post by: Benny Nganabbarru on September 08, 2014, 02:35:00 AM
Post by: TexasKing on February 21, 2016, 07:51:00 PM
Post by: ozy clint on October 15, 2018, 06:34:17 AM
the balance point is within the footing. this should eliminate breakage behind the footing.
Post by: tippit on January 03, 2021, 01:33:03 PM