Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Stickbow98 on January 08, 2009, 10:07:00 PM
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WOW!!! :notworthy: 360122366172
No competition from me on this one, :eek: but definetly a rare opportunity for "somebody" to drool!
>>--Ron--<>
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Sb are you sure thats actually a bear archery item ?? I myself am going to call bull shrimp on wade on this one.I will need to see the Bear Archery paper work on that bow.That riser was cut on a Bear C riser form and if you look how the sockets are mounted I am inclined to believe that riser was built by a former Bear Archery bowyer after the fact.Hell it don't even fit in the box....thats more like a 500.00 shooter riser then a rare collectable....bowdoc
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I visited a man who had some interesting Fred Bear items. Two of the items were a walnut and ebony takedown handle. I was told they were prototypes. He also had one of Freds hunting bows. He has a website with all his amazing items.
Dean
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Mooseran...one is Frank Scotts B handle..bd
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Guys, that's one of two walnut prototypes built by Owen Jeffery in the 60s prior to the first production runs of the style 1 TD. Moose Rancich owns the other one. Its identical and was verified by Owen. Check with Moose or Owen...Grant
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I'll add that I do question the inscription on the riser because it doesn't look like Owen's hand and I'll add that its possible Owen built this bow later BUT it is identical to the pair of prototypes he built in the developmental stages of the clothespin latch takedowns after they decided that the model Fred used to take the Cape Buff was too expensive to market due to the cost of machining the limb sockets. You can see that bow on Bear's "History of the Bow and Arrow" video.Owen told me once that they made bunches of variations before they got one that Fred was happy with; a couple even had steel rods through the risers ala Jack Howard. For what its worth only, Grant
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Doc, I just post 'em as I find 'em FYI...I'll let you experts determine the authenticity and/or values of what I find! :notworthy:
That's how we ALL learn- (until somebody writes a BOOK with all this priceless info). :pray:
:)
>>--Ron--<>
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Mike StJohn and George Johnson both make Bear take downs in eather A or B......both have sockets in eather black or goldplate.I noted the empty presation case was purchased off gbay last year.The walnut case would have been from the 80's as well ??? just wondering..bd
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I also wanted to add I wish Jack the very best during his trying times over his sister.However if he were able to load some pics of the Jim Brackenberry ie Bear take down Jim built.Schaff also was known to have made maybe half a dozen himself...bd
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I've seen some of those BD- there was a St.John up for sale a couple years ago that was pretty nice; pretty much a Sig. with black hardware. The thing about most of the reproductions I've noticed is the way the socket seats into the riser. I've never seen one that really looks like a factory bear- the base of the socket always seems to protrude more from the wood of the riser and doesn't look quite as sleek as the real deal. The hardware-as you know- on the first TDs from '69- 7? was milled from steel and the hardware on the later models is cast alloy and a bit thicker looking. What makes me think this bow probably came from Grayling is the way the socket is recessed, even if the glue lines aren't as clean as one usually finds on the Bear TDs. Owen built a Bubinga and Walnut B riser for me in '88 that has the same bulky socket issues I just mentioned because he had to improvise when cutting the recessed sockets- Bear, of course- had machines specifically designed for that job and it made a difference. Interesting stuff, ain't it? Grant
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I was just talking to Wade last night, the seller of this riser. ( We were making plans for another spring bear hunt up here in a few months). I know where he acquired this riser and I can't believe it is not an authentic Bear item. Wade is a certified appraiser and one of the leading authorities, if not THE leading authority regarding archery collectibles. In this auction Wade even shows the riser next to his signature riser so you can see it is not the shaped the same.
I sent Wade an email this morning with a link to this thread attached, maybe he will chime in.
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If I knew it was an early jeffery riser proto I would take it but it is a hard decision to make It does look like the one moose has tho...let me know anyone because I am really interested in this bow! I need more opinions
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HMMM Not anymore I dont have 10 grand on me now LOL
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One thing I just noticed is how the glass on the belly side of the walnut bow in the auction comes to a point at the base of the grip,kind of like the signature bow, whereas the one Fred is holding is more squared off.Interesting stuff for sure.
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Wade re-wrote the description for his auction and explains exactly what Grant was saying about it being an early Owens prototype. I know of some other prototype handles with brass bears on the back of the latches that are pretty cool too. Anyone know anything about the brass bear latch handles?
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I'am still saying I would sure like to see that paper work.Both Mike and George's bows look the same as the one in the pic.With no proof of ID.Just another bow to me and may not have been made by Bear at all.The box was purchased off gbay as I saw wade buy it.The handle built in the 70's and the box in the 80's ?????? just wondering.bd
Chuck I did add brass bear archery tie tac's to several take downs latches I worked on over the years.Hey I wonder if Wade has any of them hummmmmmmmmmmm......bd
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The brass bears were cut by fred hinself or so I was told he machined the bear out of along piece of brass and cut them one at a time I believe there was only enough for 10 bows or so they are on the very early production bows 1000-1010
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Yes Abear those are the brass bear handles I am talking about, John has one I think. They are the next generation of prototypes for the type I B-handle.
Hey Don, I remember those tie tacs.... :thumbsup:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/bowstuff004.jpg)
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Heck yes Chuck I forgot how nice those gold bears looked on the T/D's..bd
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Seems now he pulled the bow from the auction and has a $1000.00 Buy It Now for just the box.
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Kelly - The Original Prototype Walnut Bear T/D Riser was pulled from the auction because of some inaccurate information posted on this thread… and the decision was made to keep the riser for a display.
Hopefully the inaccurate information will be cleared up in the near future....
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the real bowdoc, Your post January 10, 2009 05:53 AM “…The box was purchased off gbay as I saw wade buy it…”
You are mistaken about that Walnut Signature Box. While I did purchase one on gbay a few years ago without an insert, the one in the auction is one that I acquired in September, 2008 with the Prototype Bear T/D Walnut Riser. The three Signature Boxes I presently own are shown in the photograph below.
Left… all original un-shot Signature Bow in original Box.
Center… 1967-1968 Prototype Bear T/D Walnut Riser in Signature Box with modified insert as I received when I purchased a collection in September, 2008. Signature box is original, but obviously not original to riser.
Right… the Signature Box I bought off gbay a few years ago, which did not have the insert in it when I bought it. I use it to store Bear Knife, File and Stone Sets.
In the future, before you make any statements about any items that I own or have for sale, feel free to contact me directly rather than formulate assumptions.
Most respectfully, Wade
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-PROTO.JPG)
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Mr Phillips,
With all the scams on E@ay, An open discussion of whats for sale there,especially on a history/collector forum,is one of the reasons I frequent here.
I see that you are a master of Bear history and have a stunning collection,but for a lot of us these discussion's are a way for us to learn as much as possible about something 99% of us can't hold or see.
Respectfully
Kurt
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Krut – With all due respect, no disrespect was or is intended to anyone. My only interest is in historically accurate facts.
I agree 100% with your statement “With all the scams… An open discussion of whats for sale there, especially on a history/collector forum, is one of the reasons I frequent here.”
I am assuming that after everyone has presented their “speculation”, that at the end of a thread you want to know the truth.
I simply presented the actual fact that some of the statements in this thread are mistaken. I also presented a photograph to show that what I stated is accurate.
I would certainly hope that everyone else would do exactly the same thing about any mistaken information that is presented on any thread by anyone.
I believe the Trag Gang User Agreement states in part.. “…If you want to disagree, then please do so in an adult manner. Debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another, but it must be done in an honorable fashion.”
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This forum is an amazing wealth of knowledge that seems to keep even the most knowledgable of the bunch interested and learning new things.
When rare or one of a kinds pop up it is invaluable for the group to share different thoughts,facts or opinions. Especially when the item is from an unknown or unknowledgable seller, here or on the big auction.
Unless someone has proven themself untrustworthy or shady, casting doubt on their auction does not seem right or go with the theme of this site.
I recently picked up what I believe is a rare or one of a kind from fleabay and had almost no competition. I am positive that was the direct result of doubt of authenticity brought up in this forum. Very Good for me, but not so good for the seller.
Casting stones at a shaky house is one thing, casting them at a stone house(Mr. Philips) is totally different. They may bounce back and hit you square in the cranium.
Greg
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Wow glad this came back to the top and as normal I would say bull shrimp.
You gotta admitt Wade that was pretty damn good from my menory to remember who bought an empty box almost 2 years ago.I sure thought it was a lined box however I've been wrong once or twice before and see I will admitt it.OK that ai'nt the box Wade bought off gbay damn it I was wrong wrong wrong.
If I'd known all I had to do was insult your box to get you to come on trad gang and share your expertise with other collecters ?? You gotta be chitting me ? I would have done it a lot sooner.even if their pissed at me chit happens.Wade you may have to take a number..I think there may be several ahead of you in the being pissed at bowdoc line...hell there may be several hundred even...bd
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For interest to all...Check out my website at
www.mooseran.com (http://www.mooseran.com)
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Your sight is looking good Moose.I had not been in sometime.Popped in checked it this AM.bd
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I received several Virus Warnings when I visited the site.
Trap
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Crap I don't got no virus protection on this puter eather..darn darn darn.Of course I had to look too.bd
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Don,
Go to Mcafee web site and get the free anti-virus download,its pretty good.
Kurt
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BowDoc… I truly appreciate your candid post of January 15, 2009 03:51 PM… However, you over did it a bit by stating that you were “…wrong, wrong, wrong.” One “mistaken” would have been sufficient. Yes, your memory is pretty good even after the passing of a couple of years, most of the facts were accurate. Hey, at my age, I have difficulty remembering what I had for my last meal.
Despite what some may think, the only person I am upset with for this episode is myself… for not originally creating a 100% historically accurate, and complete text about the item that I offered. Frankly, it is not my style to do anything less, and I blew it.
BowDoc… I’m certainly not upset with you for any reason. We’ve been friends for years, I hope that never changes, and I hope that you will never change. I would be more than disappointed if you ever would alter your “shoot from the hip”, “comic-relief” style, and become more like me with my overly dull “anal retentive”, “factual based” mentality.
My only objective in continuing this thread, is to try to bring to light, the known facts about the Prototype Walnut Risers, so in the future, others will not have to attempt to rediscover these facts. Hopefully this can be accomplished with a few additional posts from others and myslef over the next few days.
Hopefully, everyone will offer additional facts that are not presented, and additional posts will focus only on facts or questions about the Prototype Walnut Risers.
First, we should establish that Bear Archery documentation from the era exists regarding the Prototype Walnut Risers…
In the 1970 Bear Archery Catalog, Fred Bear is pictured on this inside cover with what is obviously a Prototype T/D Riser made of Walnut. Note the belly glass ends about 1-1/2” from the latches. There may be additional Bear Archery documentation from the era in magazines or catalogs. Does anyone know of any additional information produced by Bear that shows the belly glass ending 1-1/2” from the latches?
Note the grain of the Walnut in the Fred is holding, it is different than the one Moose pictures on his site, which also has the belly glass ending 1-1/2” from the latches... On his site, Moose notes that he as a set of four 8x12 photographs of his riser and that the photographs are hand signed by Owen Jeffery acknowledging that he made the riser while working for Bear in R&D.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-FB-70.JPG)
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Fred’s latches are dull like the latches on the Walnut Riser I have. Yes, the riser is also measurably more blocky then production bows.
Bear was well known for re-using old photographs in their catalogs as well as using photographs of experimental bows. Obviously, Bear tried to minimize the time and money to create catalogs. This explains the photographs of Fred with the Prototype Walnut Riser in the 1970 Bear Catalog. We can safely date the Prototype Walnut riser before printing of the 1970 Bear Catalog.
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Last night I read and re-read the entire 4-page Patent 3,502,063 for the Bear T/D Bow, filed May 20, 1968. The first page with 5 illustrations shows the belly side of the T/D riser being one continuos line from the grip to the latches (see Fig. 1, Fig. 2, Fig. 3, and Fig. 5). I found no mention of construction material options, wood types etc., in the 3-page text.
The 1967-68 date for the Prototype Walnut is chronologically logical…
The Prototype design of ending the belly glass 1-1/2” from latches was abandoned…
By May 20, 1968, when the patent was submitted, the glass on the belly was extended to the latches…
Note these latch illustrations with screws on back and belly and extra fastening hardware, logically they precede the production latch design. However, one never knows what sequence was followed exactly as development stages of products is oftentimes very different.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-FBPAT.JPG)
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Thanks to you guys for the interesting info.
Thanks to Moose for the web link. I forgot about that website. Those bows are unreal!
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Wade, you and I have done business in the past and it is nice to see you chime in here. It is correct that sequences and catalogs as well as pics are not the absolute in dating bows by bear. I think it is a shame that you are on the defense here and encourage you to continue to do battle with those of us on the site. The information contributed by all is priceless not only to the beginners, collectors, shooters, and traditional archery enthusiasts. It is topics such as this one that make this site special. You can not find information like this anywhere else. Every member should have the philosphy that the more they learn the less they know.
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The Protos look like he was trying to use a common grip on the A and the B.
The area inside the accent lams looks A riser with more wood on the ends.
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Steve – My only objective is to get all existing information from 1967 to 1970 about the Prototype Walnut Riser, recorded on this thread. To use your word “battle”, the only “battle” I am trying to wage is against our collective ignorance to the recorded facts of the era about the Prototype Walnut Risers.
Earl – Yes, the accent laminations of the Prototype are at an angle that is similar to the Production A Riser. The contour of the belly is very different than either the A or B Production. The contour of the back is similar, but still different, than the Production B. The entire silhouette of the Prototype is noticeably larger than the Production B.
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No knowledge on my part here, just trying to dig up facts from the from the 1967-1970 era about the Prototype Walnut Risers. Regarding Bear’s records of the T/Ds, I have no personal knowledge of any of those records, other then having a copy of Frank Scott’s ledger in which he tracked the serial numbers, owners, returns, and replacements for the Signature Bows.
It is important for all collectors to realize that for most companies with a factory environment, the purpose of recording items and/or giving them serial numbers was mainly for warranty purposes and/or for full or partial replacement or repair. For the most part, prototype or experimental items were not mass produced items intended for sale, and if they recorded at all, there were probably not recorded in the same manner as production items for warranty purposes. Remember, companies like Bear were in the business of making money… they were not in the business of giving every item a specific sequential serial number and documenting and recording every item for posterity so it would be easy for collectors to understand 40 or 50 years later.
As collectors, that is our job, to dig up this obscure information. That is why books, magazines, catalogs, and photographs are so valuable to serious collectors. Let’s face it, if a collector doesn’t even know that the Walnut Prototype Risers exists, they are probably not going to spend time looking for information about something they don’t realize even is in existence. Even if they see a photograph of a Prototype Riser, if they do not know it exists, they may not even recognize it as being a Prototype Riser…
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February 1, 1969 – Fred Bear Announced Take-Down… Just found this nearly 40-year-old article…
“Archery World”, May 1969, Page 78, “Bear’s Newest Is Take-Down Bow. A New, Take-Down Hunting Bow that fits into a case 22 inches long, yet can be assembled within seconds into a 60-inch bow without the use of tools was introduced February 1 by Fred Bear at the N.S.G.A Show in Houston, Texas… The riser unit is available in short and medium lengths. Three sets of limbs fit both riser sections. With the short riser, the limbs form bows 56 inches long, 58 inches long and 60 inches long. The same limbs combined with the medium riser make 60 inch, 62 inch and 64 inch bows… Like all Bear bows, the Take-Down Hunting Bow was tested and proven by Fred Bear personally on big-game trails. He used it to bring down three Alaskan Moose, a caribou, an African Cape Buffalo, and, within the past few months , an Asiatic Water Buffalo during a safari along the Amazon River in South America...”
The 1.5” x 2” black & white photograph in article is dark and grainy but shows a LEFT HAND Prototype Bear T/D with the glass ending 1-1/2” from the latches. Riser and limbs are laying on front page of “The Buck Bellows” with headline “New Bear Bow Downs Buffalo.” Grip has small piece of extra material added at area where my makeshift arrow is pointing. Also note refection on this added material.
Also note illustrations of the risers and limbs toward bottom of page… Lots of leads to follow up now…
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-FB-A2.JPG)
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Anybody (You to Wade) What's the quickest way to post a photo on here ????? moose
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Pictures have to be first downloaded on photobucket and then copied there and pasted here.
Moose, If you want to send it to me by email I'll post it for you untill you get the PB thing figured out.
[email protected]
Trap
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Hello Trap: Joined Photobucket no problem. Uploaded and image and copied it but can't paste it here. What am I doing wrong ???
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Moose, below the picture you will find three codes. click on the IMG code and once it's highlighted you can copy and paste the code that's in the box to the right of where it says IMG code.
I have to click on the image to make the 3 codes below show up.
Hope that's clear, I'm not the best at giving instr.
Trap
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Hi Trap: I think I got (http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/mooseran/BearCoins-Decal-Buttons1.jpg) it...Lets see what size
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Lets see if this comes out better in size. I'm learning a new gim (http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/mooseran/BearCoins-Decal-Buttons1.jpg)mick with photobucket.
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Moose, if you go back into Photobucket, directly under where it ask you to choose files there is a dropdown menu that has the option 640 X 480. Photobucket will resize the photos for you.
Trap
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Trap: I found it to late. My photos are way to large. Also I apologize for using this post for experimenting. Thank you for your help really.
moose
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Looking good Moose you almost got the pic 600 X 480 I think is the largest the pics can be.Hang in there.bd
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This is a photograph of Fred Bear’s elbow with a Left Hand Prototype T/D that has the glass on the belly and the accent stripes ending 1-1/2 inches from the latches. Wood appears to be Walnut, but hard to distinguish as photograph is grainy. Not sure if photograph is published in any Bear documentation as this one came to me from the vault at Bear in Gainesville some years back. This is just a small cut out portion of a much larger photograph of Fred.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-FB-TD.JPG)
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That one sure looks walnut-ie to me too.One other though is that one has a much different looking grip that what the 2000 series type S.Looks as if it has a little raised palm swell.Cool bow right there thanks Wade.bd
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This is amazing info guys! Thanks for posting.
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Is that a standard or a specially designed quiver? - Simon
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Looks like an 8 arrow with bolt on bottom and upper spring arm.
Trap
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The proto design for the B was put into production in the origional configuration,It was produced in futurewood for a limited time ,Due to cost and time it was changed early in production to the current design in which the accent stripe ends at the latch assembly i have a pic of some of the first B in futurewood and they are made just like the origional PROTO
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I wish I had one ,they look like great shooters but there availability is limited and price is astronomical
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Abear - Thank you for your input about the PROTO design being used on the early production B Risers.
Can you post of photograph of the early production T/D for us to see?
BowDoc - It is probably the appropriate time for me to ask if you can post of photograph of either of the T/Ds that you mentioned, the ones that look like the PROTO, that is with the glass ending 1-1/2" from the Latches. If you do not have photographs, can you give me the contact information for Mike St. John and George Johnson so I can contact them for photographs to show their bows for comparisons.
I believe everyone who has followed this thread, or may follow it in the future, will want all the facts. If in the future, other original Walnut PROTO bow surface, we should all be able to easily identify them as being legitimate or questionable. Again, finding out the real facts is my only objective in this matter.
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(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/adirondackbear/100_0124-1.jpg) This is one of Al Readers bows ,If you need to know anything about the Bear T/D he is the man
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(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/adirondackbear/100_0124-2.jpg)
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The furture wood riser short overlays.Now if someone will cut loss with the pic of the Bear Archery A handle with the short glass we will have seen all of them.Bob Weggel had the A last I knew.Wow small world maybe you can post a pic of Al's Mike StJohn handle for me ? thanks bd
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It's not a Bear but I thought I would put it in the proto,experimental thread.It's a Cliff Coe Experimental take-down riser I got from him several years ago.Big difference from the Bear.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/CliffCoeEXP.jpg)
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Here's one a little more relevant to this thread.I 've had this roughed out riser laying around for some time and never really paid much attention to it in detail until now.More interesting to see how the latches were installed since this one wasn't glued up yet.
But I noticed this has the fiberglass ending approx.1/34" from the latch.This would have become a C-riser as it is longer than my B.It did come from Bear.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/Prototake-downI.jpg)
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(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/Prototake-downII.jpg)
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Abear - Thanks for posting the photographs of the early production short glass T/D B Riser. Super nice!!!
John - All wood C Risers that I have ever seen have the glass ending well before the latches.
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Come on with the pics of the short glass A riser.You guy's are makeing me look bad here.Who's got it now ??? John the last operation on the take downs was to glue in the socket.That was the final step to prevent scratching heck out them during finish sanding the risers and also prevented getting fuller plas.on the sockets while spraying.Pretty cool handle...bd
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Wade,
I didn't know that about the glass on the C-handles.I don't have one to look at but I thought it looked like the B-risers that are on here.Oops,my bad.