Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Ssamac on March 25, 2009, 06:00:00 PM
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Just finished reading Fred Bear's bio and it never mentions what bow he used. I guess he test drove them all, but I'm wondering which one was his go to bow. I think in one place he talks about a 60# bow so maybe that was his pull. Also, from the pics, it does not seem like he preferred a very long bow. He was a tall guy so he would make the bow look shorter, but still seemed like he liked the recurve, the bow quiver, and a shorter bow. Also did he use those aluminum arrows he sold or did he stick to wood? Anybody know??
Thanks
sam
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I believe his all-time favorite was the custom Kodiak takedown which came out around 1969-70. Prior to than, you are probably correct in saying "he test drove them all"...especially the Kodiaks. He had a new and different Kodiak to be introduced every year and being the ultimate businessman, he would hunt or kill a trophy with it for the next year's catalog.
It has been said that his favorite Kodiak was the 1964 model and I've also read he had a special fondness for the Super Kodiaks, but do not recall a specific year model.
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He seemed to prefer 60" bows and in the 65# range. According to one interview with one of his bowyers I saw when he ordered one it had to come in exactly at the weight he ordered, not a pound over or under. He then took it to his personal shop area in his office in an unfinished condition and reshaped the grip and shelf to his liking so he was almost shooting off of his hand. He then turned it back to the bowyers to smooth it up and finish it.
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I guess a 60" bow looks short in Fred Bear's hand. I did read about the 60# that he hunted with. Took elephants and lions and bears with that.
If the book had color photos could probably see the model better.
Thanks again
sam
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Sam,
I believe Fred took his elephant in 1964 with a 75# recurve.
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Likely
could have it confused with the Lion.
sam
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Lon
Do you know which recurve it was?
sam
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I'm not positive, but since it was 1964, I bet it was a '64 Kodiak. He took his tiger the previous year with a '63 model.
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His "Field Notes" sometimes doesn't go into specifics but in the photo of the elephant he took in 1964 looks like a 1964 Kodiak. The one in the photo of the Kudu you can see it's a '64 better. No mention of weight but he took 48 arrows over and brought 40 back.
I skimmed through the book tonight and no mention at all of weight, model, etc. but here is what I could tell from B/W photos.
Yukon 1956 -Compass handle Kodiak
British Columbia 1957- compass handle Kodiak
Little Delta 1959- '59 Kodiak camo
Alaska 1960 -? Kodiak camo
India 1963 -'63 Kodiak dogleg
Africa 1964- '64 Kodiak
Africa 1965 -'65 Kodiak
Alaska 1966 -? Kodiak white limbs and quiver
Brazil 1967 -? Kodiak or Super Kodiak
So it seems he used the current model every year. One other thing is the bows were never photographed so you could see the shelf. They were always shelf down and against the animal. Maybe so you couldn't see the modifications he did to them.
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...and to think ole Fred got to write all those trips off to the IRS. :eek: ;)
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Reddogge - I saw some of Fred's personal bows in Springfield when they were in process of moving his museum from Florida. His personal bows that I saw were all different than his production models.You may be able to see some resemblance to the production model but to my eye they were quite a bit diffent especially in the risner.
-Joe-
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Sam -
If you dig through the old "Archery" (NFAA) Magazines, in the Pre-Pope and Young Club Days... you will find the annual listing of the NFAA Big Game Awards, which lists a lot of great information such as the bow weights used to take the animals...
All of Fred's listings that I noticed had 70# for the bow weight.
Fred used the best bow for him that was available at the time of each hunt from the 1930s to the 1980s... these are some bows he used to kill big game animals with in the 1960s... This information is from the poster shown. On some of the bows in the poster, the hand written dates and animals are visible on the tape on the bow...
Top to bottom...
1959 Kodiak purple heart sight window… in 1960 Fred took the world record Alaskan Brown Bear with this bow and it in 1961 Fred took a Grizzly in British Columbia with it.
1965/66 Kodiak white glass… in 1966 Fred took his Polar Bear with this bow.
1965 Exp T/D… in 1965 Fred took his Cape Buffalo and African Lion with this bow.
1964 Kodiak… in 1964 Fred took his bull elephant with this bow.
1963 Kodiak Dogleg… in 1963 Fred took his Indian Tiger with this bow.
Keep in mind there are several conflicting dates in Bear documentation about Fred's Hunts and the animals taken. Probably typos or someone not remembering a year before or after...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FREDSBOW.jpg)
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Little trivia I personaly know who has Fred's 1962 Kodiak.Or let me refraze that.I know who has the handle of Fred's 1962.It was taken from a barrel of bows in Fred's office the same time the scronger was taken thats way there is no 1962 in Fred's poster(it broke).The limbs have been cut off the 1962.I did have an offer several years ago to buy it.However at that time it was well beyond what I would pay for a broken bow no matter who's it was.One of these days when I ai'nt got nothing to do I will drive out there and ask if he will let me take a few pics for my buddies on TG.bowdoc
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last year i acquired a 60# walnut compass Kodiak and guess where it came from.British Columbia The shipping was kinda high and it went real cheap.got it home and I actually hunted with it last year ,what a shooter! anyway wonder if Fred gave his away after his last hunt up there with it.....I can dream cant I.....
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was the original leather grip missing ? bowdoc
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I wish, no it was origional and hardly used ..just dreaming out loud
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A couple observations,
There is no doubt a quiver bushing on the other side of that 59 Kodiak. Not much wood between the compass and the bushing.
The wood on that dogleg is scary beautiful. WOW
Trap
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I believe that unlike yours and my 1963 Kodiaks being bubinga.Fred's personal bow was rosewood same wood combo as the happy scrounger.bowdoc
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You are on the money about the '63 BD-as usual. The wood in his personal bows (at least the few I've seen) was beautiful. You already know how much the risers were altered from production models. Redog- the arrow wasn't almost on his hand-it was on it. According to Owen Jeffery who was Bear's Master Bowyer for a good while, that wasn't all that uncommon in the 40s and 50s. I learned to shoot that way and always have with no problems except that I have to use feathers and can't shoot with a glove on my bow hand.
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Oh BTW Wade- good post of the bows Bear actually used. Always wanted an enlargement of that for man bow room wall. GY
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Wade,
Your photo and explanation clears up what I was trying to see in the Field Notes book. Small B/W photos make ID difficult unless you can really see the profiles. Any ideas on how he camoed a couple of the bows? Didn't look like the factory camo I've seen, much bolder patterns.
Grant,
I saw you mods to the shelves BD did and it looks exactly like the ones Fred did to his. How is shooting off of your hand? For some reason I can't get past the thought of running a feather into my hand out of my mind. I have a late 60s Shakesspear with a low shelf and it feels like I am shooting off of my hand or very near it. I like the way it feels to shoot that way though.
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I've read that he used wood risered take-downs utilizing the "B" riser with #1 limbs which makes a 60" bow. I've never read a reference to him ever using a magnesium risered bow.
I have a Darton Predator (in fact, it's listed in the classifieds right now) that has a low cut shelf like Fred used on his bows. I have to use a glove on my bow hand to keep the burns and scratches under control. I've never noticed that much difference in how a standard shelf shoots as compared to the lowered shelf.
Tom I.
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And wich one did you like more,Tom?And what about the arrow flight and point of aim(instinctive)Felix
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I checked back in his bio and the lion was a 60# and then elephant was a 70#. This is from his field notes. He never mention the model. Maybe because it has been customized and he wants to be honest.
sam
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reddogge – Fred’s camo jobs were made for hunting use and the ones I have seen look to be just sprayed … The factory camo was for the catalog and to attract sales. Production bows had to look like a professional camo job…
You listed...
Yukon 1956 -Compass handle Kodiak
British Columbia 1957- compass handle Kodiak
To clarify the bows Fred used these two years just a little more so nobody confuses them with the 1954 compass bows…
Yukon 1956 Hunt - 1956 Kodiak double shelf
British Columbia 1957 Hunt - 1957 Kodiak single shelf
Trap - The grain in Fred's dogleg looks good in the photograph of the poster, but it looks much better in the original poster, and looks unbelievably stunning in person...
Doc – The wood grain in the slabs on the Happy Scrounger Bow is similar Fred’s Dogleg… More than one cool story about the Happy Scrounger bow…
I don’t really care for 1965 Kodiaks, (I like 1959 & 1960), but I would own several 1965s if they were made of wood like this Brazilian Rosewood…
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/HAPPY.jpg)
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The pics are great. That is some beautiful wood on those bows. I have some old Pearsons that have really beautiful wood too. Hard to find like that today. I read that Howard Hill shot off his hand too, and Byron Ferguson also likes the arrow to touch the hand.
sam
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Sam,
When Howard and Fred started shooting they did not have arrow shelves on their hunting bows.
Understanding the history of where they came from helps one understand why they continued doing the things that worked well for them all their lives.
The sanpshot of the 12 year period from 1955 to 1967 represented "Fred Bear's Field Notes", is only part of the story of Fred Bear.
Understanding Fred's involvement in archery for 27 year period before 1955, tells you how he got to the point that he was at when the book begins.
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Reddogge,
I really prefer to shoot off my hand (all my selfbows are made to shoot off my hand). You learn very quickly that it's necessary to trim the leading edge of the fletch as flat as possible and put a drop of glue over that front tip. After that you should be okay. I have shot with wool gloves on my bow hand with no problem, selfbows to 65#'s.
Phil
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Richard- shooting off your hand works fine as long as the bow is cut so you hold it the same way everytime. I've never run a quill into my finger but I've seen it happen to some self-bow shooters. I build my own arrows and take some minimal precautions by shaving the front of the quill down if its too high and putting a drop of fletch-tite on each end. I burn my fletching. I also have always rotated the nock slightly after fletching for clearance- left wing helical appears to have the nock dissected down the center of the slot by the rear end of the feather reverse for right-wing. I do that for clearance around the side-plate. I have done this to my bows since the sixties- from the time I was 12 y.o. or so after I saw one of Mr. Bear's bows. It became an ingrained habit-I'm 54 now- and I don't know if it helped anything but I'm confident it didn't hurt. Obviously it isn't for everyone but it isn't that uncommon historically as Wade pointed out. I get good arrow flight and I'm confident in my own method but I never encouraged my sons to do it-they shoot oof a radiused shelf or slightly elevated rest. GY
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It had to be great to be in that position...
"I'm going after Polar Bear...make me a white bow, exactly 67-1-2# at my 32: draw length. Before you put on the final finish, bring it by my office so I can get the grip and rest thew way I like it".
"I'm going after an elephant...make me a 90# bow at my 32" draw length. Oh yeah, by the way...call Arthur Godfrey and tell him I want him to come to Africa with me so he can broadcast my hunts on his daily radio program"
He was the man that promoted our sport ot make it what it has become today.
He deserved it all.
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Wade, correcto. Which is why I opened this thread. Other than knowing who Fred Bear was, I knew very little about him. I recently read Fred Bear, Bio of an outdoorsman (a book trade on trad gang) which fascinated me and then started reading his field notes. So the first book was from his parents and his birth, and how he just basically invented things as he went along. So I've become fascinated by this legend and want to learn more. Gotta start somewhere, like what was his bow?
Thanks for all your input and everyone else's. Keep it coming.
Sam
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Wade- thanks for the pic of the "Scrounger"- you do a great service to all of us for sharing these things. Grant
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Grant - Not a very good photograph of the Scrounger, but I suppose it is not possible to take a bad photograph of that bow.
Surprise you did not chime in earlier about the 70#...
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Felix...
I shot the Darton Predator so little because it's a little heavier than I can comfortable handle. Arrow flight and aiming did not seem that much different from my Bear Super Kodiak,
at least not that I noticed. I don't shoot at long distances...15 yds is about my max...so that's probably why I saw so little difference.
As to preference...I'd have to say I like my SK a lot better...
Tom I.
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Yes they must be some really sweet shooter and from a tree stand they can still make a great job.I think that to hunt with those old ladies well this is tradition
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I saw a pic of Fred shooting a snakeskin bow. What kind of bow was that?
What other archery equiptment did Fred Bear invent.
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Sam - This is a traditional site. You said a bad word in your last sentence, you might want to edit that post and just remove the entire sentence... Just go to the post, click on the pencil and pad icon, and edit the text, then click "Edit Post" button.
To answer your question, Fred's Snake Skin Back bow is a Deerslayer model, top of the line bow in its day...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FredBearSnakeSkinBackDeerslayer.jpg)
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Nice pic Wade- Apparently Fred loved this bow. It seems like after the '59 he was shooting a different bow- new model or whatever- in just about every photo or film but there is a good picture of him shooting this bow in Kroll's book that appears to date into the sixties. He's giving instruction/encouragement to soldiers in the picture I'm referring to. Must have been a heck of a bow! Grant
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Great pic. You don't see bow tips like that anymore. Why is that.
thanks
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Sam, those are static recurve tips with brush nocks designed to work like rubber brush buttons to keep limbs etc from snagging between the string and limb tips. Some bowyers are still building limbs of this type and some are building static recurves without the brush nock feature, like RER. I know of no major manufacturer who has produced this design since the mid 1950s. Grant
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Grant,
After 1948, I doubt that Fred used the Snake Skin Back Deerslayer for much besides showing it off, demos, etc. I know of no hunting photographs of him with a Deerslayer after 1948.
In 1949 he used the Static Grizzly.
During the 1950-1953 era he used the Static Kodiak and in 1953 he took the world record bow kill Elk in Wyoming with a static Kodiak, photographs prove that fact.
In 1954-56 he used double shelf Kodiaks to take several animals, photographs prove that fact.
In 1957 he used a single shelf 1957 Kodiak.
In 1958 he was still using the single shelf 1957 Kodiak.
From 1959 on you probably know what he was shooting.
Fred also took more than one bow with him on more than one trip.
Sam - Hey, I see static bow tips like that all the time. They are all over the place around here... Seriously, Grant's account is correct. Simply put working recurves limbs are more efficient than static recurves.
Hopefully some of our talented traditional bowyers will bring back some of the true classic bow designs like the Grumley Deerslayer and Bush Bow.
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I get the idea of a "static recurve" Not bad. Now tell me, please, what is a double shelf bow? does that mean you could shoot rightie or leftie?
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So one more to ponder. I understand that Wing Archery bows were better before Head Ski than after. Did the quality of Bear bows go down when Kidde bought the company and moved it to Florida? That had to be a real kick in the chops for all those Grayling people who worked for Fred for 30 years or so. But these were the really skilled workers.
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Sam - Yes, double shelf means RH and LH... will have to get you a photograph of another definiation of the double shelf, hopefully withing 24 hours.
Sam - You probably need to get Dick Lattimer's two books about Fred and read them, if you haven't already. Dick's books will tell you more than we can post here.
OK, now I will probably start an argument -
In which city where were the best Bear bows made?
1. Detroit
2. Grayling
3. Gainsville
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Not nice Wade. But fun. There's a pic of a 56 Kodiak for sale and it says rh/lh. I guess I get the double shelf idea now. Were these good designs? Or were the later Kodiaks which were strictly RH or LH a better bow?
sam
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I do want to read more on Bear. Lattimer was a friend and employee, right?
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Yes, Lattimer worked for Fred and was a close friend. So close, that he was the friend who placed Fred's ashes in their final resting place.
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Now he had to know the story. Nice. I'll look for them. Are they in print or do you have to get an old copy?
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Sam,
Both of Latimer's books are still in print...
3 Rivers Archery carries both....you can probably find them on Amazon also...
Tom I.
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Amazon's not a sponsor. I have to contact 3 rivers anyway for some new shafts and other odds and ends.
Thanks
Sam
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The one book that seems to have disappeared is Fred Bear's Archer's bible Why is that?
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Sam, Mike Horton at the Nocking Point carries the books and is a sponsor here as well. Might give him a shout.
Wade, I'll jump in with both feet first, The answer to your question IMO is Grayling >>> Birthplace of the "still shootable classics"
I realize the Grumley's have a special place in history and are very "collectible" but I'd have to give the label of "best bear bows" to the Grayling Bears.
Trap
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Trap
Checked Nocking Point and 3 Rivers. Neither have Bear's "Archer's Bible". Was his own first book, I think. More about shooting and bow history than adventures.
sam
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Sam, I thought you were looking for Dick Lattimer's books.
The "Archer's Bible" I think it's the 1968 edition pops up on e8ay from time to time and usually sells for around $20.00. There may be a copy listed now.
Trap
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Trap - my question was...
In which city were the best Bear bows made?
In your answer, of "Grayling", you specified it with... "Birthplace of the "still shootable classics""
Although you rephrased the question a bit with your answer, I doubt that any sane person would disagree with your answer.
Unquestionably, Grayling produced the most "still shootable classics"
Refresh my memory for Bears, do you own anything other than Grayling bows?
Now, you would not be influenced by the bows you own would you? Can't say that I could blame you for that, actually a very wise decision.
Sam - "Archer's Bible" is not the Adventure book of "Field Notes". Get Lattimer's books first.
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Wade, Grayling Bears are all I have. So, yes my experience is limitted. I've shot some Gainesville Bears and have placed a 1972 Super Kodiak beside a 2008 Super Kodiak and the difference is like night and day. The Gainsville Bears are not even close in quality of material or workmanship IMO.
I suppose my rephrasing of the question reflects what is important to me when defining "best". To me, If they arent shootable they arent best.
I'm sure others feel that the pre Grayling bows are the best and I'm sure they have reasons which are as valid to them as my reasons are to me. Some may feel the Gainesville Bears and the ability to use fast flight on them makes them best. Maybe they like the grey and tan color combo.
I doubt there is a "correct" answer to your question, but IMO the best Bear bows were produced in Grayling.
Trap
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Trap
I was already looking for the Archer's bible and the Field notes. Thanks for pointing me to Lattimer's books too. I like to read
I now need to get a Bear Bow. Believe it or not, in all these years I have not owned a Bear Bow. Wings, Pearsons, Martins, a couple of custom bows, but no Bear. So I have to ge one of those too. Recommendations for the Bear Bow for someone who does not have one?
sam
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Sam, thats a tough one to answer for everybody has their favorites from Kodiaks to Cubs. Look at as many models as you can, hold them,shoot them etc. you will know when the right one finds you.then the fun begins. good luck and enjoy the quest. I'm a Kodiak and a Kodiak T/D guy. I like S/K's too. (see what i mean.)
Joe
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I guess the hard part is getting the bows to hold and shoot. Not a lot of trad shooters around here so I have to buy them and try them. That leaves a person with a lot of bows they don't use sometimes. Anyway, have my eye on a couple of 56 Kodiaks and just question that double shelf and how I will like shooting off that.
As a follow up on the Archer's bible, I found a copy used on Amazon for 10.95 last night. They are no longer in print so our sponsors do not carry them. Fields notes is in print and looks like Lattimer's book, Papa Bear is in print. I'll take em on one at a time. Good reading.
Thanks again guys for your help in my deep dive into this legendary guy called Fred Bear.
sam
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The 55 and 56 Kodiaks are great bows and would serve you well Sam. I've found the double shelves require you to pay a little more attention to arrow spine. I guess they are cut a little farther from center than the single shelf bows.
They are classic 50s recurves and will shoot with all the rest. Very light in the hand, smooth to draw and very crisp. I like them alot.
Not sure where you're at in Illinois, but if you're ever over in Central Missouri, look me up and I'll string up everyone I have for you.
Trap
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Sam....another good one is Trailing a Bear by Bob Munger, who was Fred's hunting companion on many of his hunts....The link below will take you to a site called A tribute to Fred Bear and the page containing info about Bob. If you check
out the menu to the left of the page, you'll find a lot more info about Fred...
http://munger.fredbear-online.com/
Tom I.
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Thanks for the offer Trap. So you think a 56 Kodiak is a good starting point? Maybe if there's a nice 3D shoot around by you it would be a nice trip.
Tom the link is great. What a nice site. The more Bear I see the more I want to know.
I guess he was that kind of guy.
Thanks again
sam
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How far are you from Hannibal Sam? There's ususally a couple shoots each summer there.
Trap
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Sam, I don't want to open a can of worms but actually "The Archers Bible" was written by Charlie Kroll and signed off on by Mr. Bear. The "Bible" series was fairly extensive- Flyfishing, camping, etc. Look on the auction site for a copy; they usually go for a moderate price. Grant
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By the way fellows, The shelf and handle modifications on my bows was done by me. Bowdoc refinished and cleaned them up for me. I talked to him Saturday and he threatened my life (he's kinda little so I wasn't scared) but he doesn't do this work and it would cost a ton if he did. Get yourself a coping saw and four-in-hand rasp and go to it, but remember, once its gone it's gone. I've been shooting this way a long, long time but I can't and don't recommend it to anyone. It was just a kid's fantasy that became a "method" and it has little to promote it as a "bettter" way. Your bow will lose much of its value if you decide to do these alterations. I never sell a bow, and if you plan to, don't do it. Grant
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Hey Sam,
I'm about 100 miles SW of St. Louis and I'll make the same offer as Trap. Mine are all '58s (I think).
If I were going to pick one bow to start with, just to shoot I think I would go with a 62" Grizzly of whatever vintage. They can be had at reasonable prices and are sweet shooting bows.
Another good read is Glen St.Charles book "Bows On The Little Delta" although not specifically about Fred Bear it has some interesting stories and some really great old photos
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Trap With the new Hway61 about 1.5 hrs drive. from Hannibal. I'm about 4 hours from you Bob and thanks again to both.
The Archer's Bible said Fred Bear as an author, but I guess Charlie was his ghost writer. I bet it's still a good read along with the field notes.
Thansk
sam
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Got my Archer's Bible in the mail today. Have not gotten my 56 Kodiak yet, however. Archer's bible is a great read. Cost $1.95 when it first came out
sam
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Sam
If you decide a 56/57? Kodiak Special 64" 50# would fit the bill, I have a refinished one thats pretty clean.
Open to trades
Kurt
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Thanks Kurt. I have a 55- 56 on the way is what I meant. Double shelf and all.
sam
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Nice to revisit Grant and Fred
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Tony thanks for bringing up these great old threads. :thumbsup:
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Tony, Doesn't seem like it has been 5 years since we had this conversation. It is wonderful to re-visit it. As Bjorn said "Thanks for bringing up these great old threads.
You should talk to the powers to be about creating a new TradGang position for you, "Chairman of Archived Threads".
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:thumbsup:
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Howdy, Wade
I bet you could walk into the Arsenal with a camera, put on a blindfold, take a picture of anything, post it, and start up a brand new thread worthy of archiving.
I double dog dare you.