Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: bswear on October 31, 2009, 09:59:00 PM
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What is the real reason we can't shoot fast flite on vintage bows? Wear in the tips? This could be remedied by padding the loops. I just can't really see what prevents it other than everyone says don't do it.
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What's the purpose for using it?
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bows built before 1960's or so had paper tip overlays and FF's cut through the paper overlays.After 1960 most manufactures switched over to fiberglass tip overlays.However there was no testing data back in the 50's and 60's and into the 1970's because there were no FF strings to test with.Most bows manufactured in the 1970's will stand up to the FF strings.
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You know if ya gotta do it you know you just gotta try that FF on your old bow.Before you do use the no stretch FF type material.Try this I shoot a 10-12 stand string with padded loops and serving on a 55# bow.That 12 stand B-50 dacron is as fast as a FF string on my 1964 Kodiak.The dacron makes less noise and the bow is about the same speed may 1-2 ft per second faster with the FF then the 12 stand.However the FF makes to much noise.
In 1964 there were no FF strings to test the bows with.So we are not sure the fade outs will take the schock of the FF string.I will say this since the onslot (from the mid 1980's) of FF strings on other bows I've made lots of money repairing old bow tip overlays.But please try the 10-12 stand dacron first.bd
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food for thought....bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/905.jpg)
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"The candle that burns the brightest burns twice as fast"
I see all the stress cracks on bows as old as mine and wonder if:
Dry fires?
Loose nocks?
Light arrows?
Minimum strands on strings?
Decades of this abuse + fast flight = CRACK!
So I use heavy arrows, max strands of Dacron string, and snug nocks. How can we know how much stress happened to our bows before we got 'em?
I can't see a real difference in fps, but I do notice zero stress lines per limb!
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So the problem is the string eats the tips, not limbs snapping off at the fadeouts? Lots of people asking me why...I don't plan to do it but just wondering what the failure is. I might try an 8 strand b-50, though. FYI, I put an 8-strand d-97 on my 55# widow and it shoots faster and quieter than the standard 14 strand Widow string. Got me thinking about all our "known" knowledge that is sorta based on traditional logic, not fact.
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Oh forgot to add, my arrow weigh 676 grains, so the bow is not exactly going be dry fired.
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Doc,
That 55# '62 K of mine in your shop might be a good candidate for a skinny string. Think 8 strands is too light?
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8 stand would work sweet but do pad the loops and as mentioned keep and eye on your nocs.
I often wonderd if old bows would handle the no stretch of FF type strings and I do know several guy's who do use FF and have for a few years with no problemo's at all ??? bd
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I know nothing compared to 'Doc and Rich but I wouldn't use FF on any bow I didn't consider very replaceable. Energy has to go somewhere and a deadstop doesn't give it much time to dissipate. I do use light dacron strings, however- 12-13 strand endless loop on 65-70# bows. I try to keep them in good repair, and replace them fairly regularly. I shoot too much to risk the damage. Doc's right, sometimes bows can take a lot and keep working, three years ago I dropped my styleI out of a tree at around 12-15 feet down a rocky hillside to boot. No problems. I don't intend to do it again, though. GY
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I have a '58 Polar with nearly every problem with the glass imaginable so I figured "he**, why not" and put a low-stretch string on it (with padded loops). The first thing I noticed was the lack of any limb vibration after the shot and the brace height sweet spot was lower. Much nicer to shoot than with my standard 12 strand B50. Going on one year now and I think it's earned a refinish and proper tip overlays.
On every bow I've owned (and tried it) the limbs vibrated less with the low-stretch strings than with dacron, so I have a hard time believing there's any extra stress on the limbs. Limb tips on the other hand... most old bows (and new bows for that matter) don't have tips that are shaped very well, concentrating stress at the worst possible place. Add relatively skinny strings to the mix and you've got a recipe for disaster. Pad the loops and shape the tip overlays properly and...
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Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
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If one wanted to investigate this FF thing with bows that are not too dear, then the hot setup right now is a skinny 8125 with copiously padded loops. A ten strand will give you the skinny effect and still leave some room for problems on a hunt. The strands are smaller than D97 and near as strong, over 100lbs.
What people are seeing with the skinny FF string is a large reduction of noise and vibration and some surprising pickups in the horse power department. And there are people that are using these skinny strings on older bows successfully. This probably should be investigated more scientifically. I'm going to try it sometime soon but I think it has to be the skinny string, and I wouldn't even try a 14 or 16 strand brownells or D97. Those are just way stronger than they need to be and that might be why they are so noisy and tear up old limb tips. D97 is 130lbs a strand. Right now some people are using a 8 strand D97 for a skinny string which works ok. I think the 8125 is better, it creeps less and is even skinnier.
With dacron, I had better performance out of my 70lb bear take down limbs with a 20 strand string then a 14 or 16 strand. I think that the dacron is too stretchy to use like a skinny FF string. If you go too low in the strands they stretch on release taking some of the heat off the arrow, like shooting with rubber bands. I checked the above limbs at 45 yards with a 995 grain arrow and I'm sure it put the arrows higher on the target with the twenty strand string. Those limbs just shredded at least two 14 or 16 strand strings before I put the 20 on. Now you can shoot it a couple hundred times without re-bracing it too.
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I have been shooting a 1959 Grizzly using a 4 strand D97 string with loops padded to 16 strands. The bow is only 35# so the 4 strand string is perfect, and has really livened up the bow. The string has been on the bow for 8 months-the bow stays strung and I try to shoot it every coupla' days. No intention of trying this on a fav Kodiak any time soon.
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The other thing that's worth mentioning (again) is the newer strings are low-stretch, not NO-stretch. When you have the 18 strand FF-type string most places sell that's a cable that's not going to stretch much on the shot. Now a 6-12 strand is going to stretch much more.
One of the TBB gives some #'s for stretching. After the string has settled in dacron will stretch ~4%, "FF" 2%, linen 3% and silk ~6% (or something close to those #'s... my TBBs got moved to my shop and are in a box). I know a linen string feels more like FF than B50.
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Jeremy, do you think that stretch percent rate is constant, or would it be variable according to how stressed the string is? And would it be less variable with anti-stretch materials like 8125?
When I first saw the skinny string posts, my first instinctive reaction was that they were introducing more stretch in the string, quieting down the bows. But I'm pretty sure that it is the lack of stretch that really gives ff material the performance advantage, which can be quite a bit when the skinny string concept is used. So if that is true then the FF strings still might not stretch a whole lot.
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Some ramblings...
I don't see where 8125 stretches any less than D97, TS1 or Ultracam. It has less creep than some of the others, but not less stretch - at least that's what my forearm is telling me LOL!
If you increase the number of strands in a string, it's going to stretch less. I don't know if those % numbers were figured out for whole strings, sinlge plys or what. They do seem to be in the ballpark though (again, going by my highly calibrated forearm :) ) I've tried the ultra skinny strings and they'll hit my arm just like a dacron string, so they definitely do stretch.
If the lack of stretch was the main contributor, than the thicker low-stretch strings would perform better. That's not the case though. The skinny strings (with less mass) perform better. Make a real skinny dacron string and you'll increase the speed as well (and the amount it'll stretch)
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oh yeah 8 stand dacron on a 55# bow does not have the same life span as a 16-18.The 16-18 on my T/D is like 3 years old.The 3 bundle 6 strand Larry made me for my 1964 stretched alot like I mean alot. bd
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Jeremy, I decided to go out and look at the advanced fiber world. I turns out that DSM invented Dyneema SK60 and SK75 (a UHMPE fiber). BCY makes D97, 8125, 450+ and 452 and they are comprised mainly of SK75. The latter two are combined with a fiber called Vectran from the Kevlar family (Aremid).
Brownells used to use Spectra from Honeywell in there fast flight which is a UHMPE fiber too. BCY uses Spectra in serving thread as it is more suitable to braiding. Brownells has just stopped using Spectra and switched to SK75 and basically come out with several new products that are near copies of BCY strands.
I was able to find some data on SK75 at Samson rope company's web site. They posted the following stretch data; After previous stabilization, and after 50 cycles of stretch at 10% breaking strength it has .46% of stretch per length. At 20% it is .7% and at 30% breaking strength it is up to .96%. This basicly represents "no stretch".
With a skinny string, we are using SK75 probably around 20%. That means, I think, that a 60 inch string stretches 42/100s of an inch at full draw. There might be a spike at release but it wouldn't be to high if there even was one.
Now we need to get stretch data on B500 Dacron. I think we'll find with it, to get to that level of anti-stretch, we will have to go up in strands, a lot.
Remember the purpose of this post is to quantify what is safe to use on older bows for string material.
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Actually, after further thought, with a moderately skinny string, we are probably even under 10% breaking strength.
10 strand 8125, 100lbs per strand, around 1000lbs, with a 60lb bow is less that 10 percent.
We might want to design a skinny string that would be closer to 20 or 30% to introduce some stretch. Just like Bjorn is using.
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Well I found more some data on Dacron and some other fibers. For the amount of stretch that is. A single strand of Dacron has about 43lb breaking strength by one source. The stretch rates are at 30% of breaking strength.
Nylon 14%
spectra xls 800 1.25%
wire rope 7x19 1.25%
spectra xls 900 .95%
braided dacron 5%
dacron stayset x 3.25%
sk-75 .96%
These values are for rope but are the right fibers basically. The other thing to consider about dacron is we use it a lot closer to the breaking point than sk75. So the stretch rate will even be higher. I.E. rubber bands compared to sk75 at about 5% of the breaking point, if that.
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I have had several bowyers tell me that FF and newer should not be used on their older bows. That is why they switched to multiple tip overlays, or wedges depending on the design and type of bows. They also say it should not be use with horn tip overlays, either.
However, some are bound to try it, just to see if they can, and then say they did. Then, there is the man that hires himself as his own bowyer and finds out later that he has a fool for a client.
Has anyone seen or tested a single strand of B-50, D97, FF etc, by taking a 5 ft. long strand and hang a 12.9 lb weight (43# x .30) on an "S" hook. Record the exact length of your string, and check later to see if there was any stretch?
If you try it, remove the weight and see if the string recovers? You might get a better idea how the different materials are going to perform. if your getting some stretch, then compare it to the older B-50.
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I've shot a Bear hunter takedown recurve with fast flight for 10 years, my brother probably longer with absolutely no issues.
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I've been using a very thin 6-strand TS+ string with padded loops on a very old Groves bow for quite awhile now (1000's of shots)with no problem. There is a very noticeable performance gain with no down side that I am aware of. I use a double nock point made up of polyester sewing thread saturated with glue for a perfect nock fit. I haven't had issues using the modern super string materials with all-wood laminated bows, wood self bows, or English style long bows with horn tips. The modern string material delivers more energy to the arrow so less is left in the limbs after the arrow leaves. I can see where a high strand count fast-flite type string may be harder on a bow during a dry-fire. I agree with the posts above that recommend to not using more strands than is necessary to help solve that issue.
I don't know what to say about experiences with delaminations. The old linen strings were similar or even less elastic than the new fast-flite strings and it worked fine on bows for thousands of years. My opinion is that some bow designers became complacent and lost a lot of knowledge about strings and bow design when B50 came out along with mass produced glass bows.
A note of caution about strings. I have tested several different string materials in the last couple of years and have found that the breaking strength of many commercial bow strings is about half what is often published. My TS+ has a breaking strength of about 50-60 lb. My B50 tested 20-25 lb.
-Alan
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Interesting,please keep posting more infos when they will be available.
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Alan, did you determine how much stretch you obtained in your testing?
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Hud,
I measured the stiffness of the bow string materials(% stretch per lb load) but I did not measure string creep (gradual permanent stretching of the string when under load). I used these measurements in a program I put together for designing and simulating stick bows performance. I can dig this up.
The way I tested the string breaking strength was to hang a barrel from a 6' length of string and I filled the barrel with water until the string broke. Then I weighed the barrel + water afterward. I found that my spring scale and digital scale were not reliable enough and the shock of the string breaking would result in a much higher reading compared to what I got with the bucket+water+weigh method. Pretty primitive, but it worked well. Stiffness was measured with a very long length of string (like 30') and measuring the stretch Vs. load, kind of like measuring a force-draw curve on a bow.
-Alan
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I just started using a 6 strand 8125 padded to 20 strands on a Bear Grayling takedown with no. 3- 39lb limbs and rose future wood overlays. I have shot it quite a bit and kept a very close eye on the string nocs to see if it starts to cut them. So far so good. The bow "shoots better" is an understatement. The limbs stabilized at an 8" brace height, where before I had to take it up to 9+ to get them to stop throbbing on an A riser. It is shooting the same arrow as a 36lb Black widow or very nearly. It shot a much lighter spine arrow before.
But I have second thoughts about going down to six strands, I think that ten strands might be alright. And it keeps other people shooting around you from freaking out, . More later.
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Alan,
I wondered about the spring scale, but you have answered that question. The dead weight method sounds reliable. I am not surprised the mfgr ratings are higher.
In an old interview and published article,Fred Bear said he preferred a heavier string. He thought it was quieter, and offered a margin of safety, in case a strand was cut. I believe he used 18-20 strands on his 65# Kodiak and TD's. I confident it was B-50 and then maybe D97 (pre 1988).
I have no problem with light strings, but tend to favor heavier strand. When I was shooting, a fair amount of 3D, I saw a few bow break, but it was not known whether it was a bow or string problem.
When I was in high school, I had a string (B50) cut thru the tip overlays on an Bear Kodiak, causing the backing to separate from the laminations with the string peeling thru about 6-9 inches when at full draw. Bear used paper overlays for the tips on that bow and at the time I was buying strings for the dealer. Barry
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Ya, Barry it is good to here from you again.
I wouldn't use B-50 for a skinny string. I have argued that the performance is better with the heavier string with Dacron and I'm going to say that it is due to the moderate stretch rate of Dacron.
With 8125(SK-75 92% SK-65 8%) you have a completely different animal. Or with 452X being part Kevlar or Aremid. These materials are so much stronger, with virtually no stretch. My 6 strand 8125 is 720lb. That is the same as a 14 strand B-50.
I could tow my truck with an 18 strand D-97, no wonder they tore up tips on older bows.
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Larry,
My experience with a Bear Kodiak in 1957 to 59 was with a factory or dealer string. Probably B50, maybe B43. I doubt it was 18 strand, because the bow was around 55#. Even at 14-16 strands, it would be heavy by todays standards, or what your using, but it was standard back then. The bow was new, and not 50 yrs old. I personally, feel the shock is less than it would be from a lighter string because the limbs would recover faster with a lighter string, producing the extra speed your looking for. Consequently, I would not be tempted to use a lighter B50, or newer non-stretch string on my 1950 Vintage bows anytime soon. I would give it a try on a newer style bow under the right conditions. To me the extra speed, is not worth the risk.
As Allen found out, the strings material he tested, broke at about 1/2 the published rates. That is pretty significant in my estimation. It would be interesting to see what the 8125 would hold up to under the same test.
Obviously, your experience has been good with the Bear TD with Futurewood tip overlays. I think you'd agree, they are stronger than the early models with paper overlays. Futurewood was an impregnated wood that was much stronger after the process.I am interested in learning more as it relates to Vintage bows including yours. Thanks for info.
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Ya Barry, I would prefer that the tips were one of the micarta sets. If the future wood tips hold up then you know there is no problem, cause the others are micarta anyway, on the takedowns. A thin layer of micarta is all some bowyers use on there fast flight limbs.
As to the testing, well it is highly probable that he might not be testing the fibers right. And it may be intentional.
If BCY can come up with the engineering for the fibers I just see no reason why they would manipulate test readings. Or why they would not have a true test of the fiber. The rope manufactures' demand accurate testing on all fibers including SK-75. This info is needed in the act of rigging. So BCY is not the only people testing SK-75. It's strength is not unknown. The latest that I seen on 8125 is 120lb.
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Hey Larry,
Your probably right about BCY, but B50 and D97, Fastflight and Brownell TS, might be different. I believe that is what Allen tested and the B50 is what I had used. I haven't tried the BCY. I believe your right with the micarta overlays. Good luck
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I have had a Bear with the string shear through the tip into the limb and a Wing where it sheared off the whole tip like a knife. Jim
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aallfab, no one is denying that one can mess up a bow with FF strings. You probably ought to read a couple of these threads all the way thru. There are people using FF carefully on older bows.
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Larry keep to update us with your review,we appreciate it.Felix
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Right now the latest update is this one is on the back burner right now. I took the string off the limbs mentioned above, to rethink the situation. The 8125 loops padded to twenty strands are still quite a bit smaller than the 16 strand dacron loops that came off these limbs. I need to find a way to pad the loops much larger, and I wouldn't mind finding a less expensive bow or limbs to find out intentionally what they won't take first. I still feel the performance and shoot-ability of the bows with 8125 on them is worth it, as long as they don't break that is.
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The 12 strand string on older bows makes quite a difference on older bows. I found that quite by accident when I bought an old bow with a 12 strand string and was pleasantly surprised.
Give it a try before you put the FF string. Just doesn't pay to damage a nice old bow for very little gain. And yes, they are harder to quiet down.
sam
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Hi All:
I'm bringing this to the top to see if there has been any change in experiences or thinking. I've been shooting vintage and custom bows for nearly 20 years.
Until recently, I've always shot B50 on my older bows, but then came my '66 Kodiak. I was having trouble tuning the bow and it just wasn't shooting as well as I thought it should. On a whim I switched the string from B50 to Fast Flight. Wow! What a remarkable difference.
I don't mean speed. It's far more quiet, much more stable after the shot (e.g. less limb vibration), far more consistent in accuracy, and more tolerant of arrow spine. The differences is night and day.
All that said, I have no desire to cleave the tips from my terrific old bows.
So, what's the latest? Are low-stretch strings and old bows still considered incompatible?
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I've been shooting low-stretch, low mass strings from old bows for years. Probably at least 5000 shots from at least 25-30 bows: Bears, Wings, Widows, and others-back through the 60s. Never a hint of a problem. I'll admit I've "known" some things before that didn't turn out to be true.....but I simply have not seen there is any risk in putting a properly made "skinny" string on many old bows. Nyron, my experience is they generally do all that you found with your Kodiak. And, they turn a lot of mediocre performers into much better bows....the results are less noticeable on bows that were already great shooters.
All that said, I use a 10-12 strand B50 string on any Bear with paper micarta overlays, any static recurve or bow w/o overlays or with nocks designed like the Herters recurves......and others that seem like their design might invite a failure. There are also bows-like my one remaining '60 Kodiak or any of the early Widows through '63 that I see no reason to accept even a minimal risk of failure.....Dacron will work on those just fine.
If any of the doubters feel adventurous, I challenge them to take an average shooter-maybe even your old carp bow?-and fit it with a 450+ 8 strand flemish string with loops padded to 12.(450 is large diameter and soft, but very strong.) Then compare how the bow shoots with the two strings. Noise is usually less, but does vary, based on how well your string is made, brace height,and the bow limb design-but, as a rule, it will not take MORE silencer than a similarly constructed dacron string and speed, vibration, etc will be better. My low strand count, low stretch, hi-strength strings generally have a total mass-including padding & silencers- 35-50% less than the "traditional" 14-16 strand B50 string. That tells me they have to transfer more energy to your arrow. Less noise(which is basically vibration), and less "felt" vibration also equals more energy to the arrow.
This was my choice, and -so far-it's worked out just great! By the way, in case anyone wonders if I've only tried one material, I use 6 strand ultra-cam strings on the new hybrid longbows with great results, but I suspect that may be over the top for more of the old bows. I've tried a couple of others, but settled on these two.
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I second that Tom
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Is 450+ still available?
Anyone use it in an endless string? I've never learned how to make flemish strings but endless I'm very good at.
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Hi Kelly!
I bought a spool of 450+ a very few months ago from 3R or KK, I think. I don't know if it's still being made. I'm just the opposite from you; haven't made an endless string in a couple of decades, but make several flemish every week. I have received several hybrid bows with endless strings of 8125, D97, etc. They worked fine, but it is my habit to make my own string for any bow I buy for myself-collector or for resale. I doubt it makes a difference....I'd guess the loop serving on an endless makes particularly good padding. Speaking of all that, however, I simply choose to use low stretch material on all the bows I intend to keep and use myself.
I know you're an old Wing fan. Maybe the bow I have the most experience with this material is a '64-65 Swift Wing, 62", 52#. It was always a sweet, wonderful shooter. But, it's exceptional with 8 strands of 450+, and has gone at least a couple thousand shots, maybe many more.
If you haven't yet, look for info on Rick ******, likely on the other site. He's done more definitive work on these strings than anyone I've read. But, I've not experienced anything that makes me doubt what he says. And, I'll guarantee that I'm getting more experience with them almost every day.
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Tom;
I've made "skinny" endless strings out of 8125 with enough extra strands underneath the servings to equal 16 strands. These were for modern bows and have not had the guts to try one on my older classics. Guess I should try one on a more common older bow with character so it won't be too much of a hurt on the pocket book if something happened.
On another note, recently acquired a fairly large lot of the same string material that Jack Howard used on his bows. Am anxious to make some strings for my other bows to see how they react with it.
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My '59 Grizzly is still shooting with the skinny string on it since 2008. Bow stays strung most of the time and no problems, the wood arrows weigh about 525 gns. I still won't try anything but B50 on my Kodiaks or other collector bows.
BTW I too tested the strength of several string materials and found they were consistently about half of manufacturer's specs.
I'm not recommending modern strings on older bows, just decided to try it for myself.
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Putting this back on top to see if anyone has any updates. As with any practice, the longer the history the better conclusions you can make about it.
I am interested as I pulled out my 73 Kodiak Hunter and was shooting and my serving broke. Wanting to keep shooting, I grabbed my backup string for my current go to bow (an 10 strand endless loop TS+ padded to 16 strands in the loops) and put it on. I was shocked at how much this changed how the bow shoots compared to the 12 strand Dacron I took off. Besides seaming much faster, it was quieter with less shock and vibration - just a better feel throughout the shot. Also, the annoying buzz in the old spring arm quiver was gone. I had to use a 50 grain lighter point to get the bow/arrow back in tune.
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I weighed the two strings. The TS+ weighed 90 grains and the decron weighed 144 grains.
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Try a 12-14 strand B55 endless loop string as a higher performance yet safe alternative on your older collectors. My experiments with this showed it closer in performance to a flemish twist D97 than a B50 flemish. I can usually shoot the same arrows and tip weight with the B55 endless loop as the fast flight string where the B50 flemish always meant retuning my arrow setup. I use 12 strand for 60lb and 14 strand B55 for 70lbs+.
Dave
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I have found the endless loops are higher performance than the flemish twists as well.
I have also seen scarce few posts (on TG or other sites) in the past 2 years since this thread was last posted on in 2013 about old bows blowing up with padded FF material. I actually can't remember even seeing one.
While I don't do it (use FF on my old bows) I know many guys who do and I am likely going to try it soon. I would NOT do it on an old Bear with the micarta tips on it still, but that's back in the 1950's...so you're KH is fine.
Endless loop does seem to give a noticeable improvement in speed on my old Bears over the twist. It's a bit tougher to quiet down for me though.
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I always used endles loop strings also. I may try a 10 strand b-50 to se how it works.
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I will shoot all of my 60's Bears with low stretch strings...if that sort of material had been available in the 60's Bear would have been using it
DDave
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We have satisfied ourselves that virtually all the stretch in a B50 string occurs in the loops...my stringmaker is a Master at braiding the loops which takes care of that issue rather nicely...I suspect that a well made endless loop string does exactly the same thing...I will use a B50 string on a particular bow so that I can shoot a more reasonable spine...with draw weight over 60 pounds at 30 inches I find I need to be shooting 250 spine arrows with BCY-X which greatly limits my choices
DDave
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With the '59 Kodiak being the last with the paper micarta tips, most folks say 1960 and later bows are better suited to low stretch.
But what about the '59 Kodiak Special? Are they also made with the paper micarta?
About a year ago, I put a Dynaflight 97 flemish string on a '59 KS of about 45# and been shooting it from time to time. I noticed improvement in all aspects of shooting the bow and see no negatives to report.
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5 fps (or less)doesn't matter that much to me. I could never justify the added risk to a bow.
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It's really not about the speed increase, which is minimal. It's about the feel of the shot which is infinately better.
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I agree with that. I found the shock about gone, less noise, better flight, more accuracy, etc. :saywhat:
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Years later now....I'm using 10 strand 8125s on my fast flight limbs and Dacron on any other. After reading thru the later posts on this thread I would still caution to not use low strands counts with Dacron. In fact, going up in strands to reduce stretch would be ideal and probably improve performance. I know there is some info on big game hunting with heavy Bear bows on this site that talk about getting huge performance increases when increasing strand count on bows of 125lbs or so. Like going from twenty to twenty six strands...
I would also like to point out that there is plenty of info on fiber strength out there from manufacturers and if your testing and getting low results then knot strength and or rigging maybe all that is being tested.
I shot a few ends with a skinny string on my 39lb #2 takedown limbs and then reconsidered. It wasn't worth doing because I wouldn't want to have to disclose to someone that I had shot any of my old Bear stuff with fastflight. Even if there was no damage. The above 39lb limbs are fine, and had no problems.
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I've been using a 12 strand Astroflight with padded loops on my '55 Grizzly static, thousands of shots. Whole new feel to it.
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I spoke to someone years ago about this, I believe it was Dan Quillan. He stated that the way the nocks are cut is what counts. No square shoulders or flats. Most older bows have more square shoulders. He told me to take a file to the nocks and taper the shoulders like the newer bows if I wanted to shoot FF and don't worry about it.
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Course I just can't do that and resort to b50 on the classics. Heck I have a newer longbow that shoots better(not quicker) and quieter with b50!!! :dunno:
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I've been running 12-strand D-97 padded to 16 strands in the loops on my old red, white and green tips for about 6-8 years now without any problems. Of course, those older TD limbs have pretty substantial limb tip overlays, and the glass isn't filed down to the wood in a V like it is below some nocks on the '50s era Kodiaks.
Definitely increases the performance and reduces what little hand shock there is. I recently compared two older set of red tips with a set of newer (within the past 2 years) red/black tips using the same D-97 string at the same brace height on the same B riser with the same three arrows. All the limbs were marked 50#@28 on a B riser. The older limbs were 1 fps and 2fps faster than the newer limbs, basically a wash. When new limbs are touted as being faster than the older limbs, it's due to using low stretch material on the new limbs and comparing them to the old limbs with dacron. Put the same string on each, and they behave the same.
I don't ever expect to have problems with D-97 on my Bear TD limbs, but if a limb should ever break for whatever reason, there are tons of older limbs available at good prices and Bear is making more every day.