Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Wade Phillips on November 02, 2014, 11:57:00 AM
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Before 2010 the 56” Maple Sight Window (MSW) Kodiak had not been found by any of the active collectors of the time. Then a 56” MSW finally surfaced in early 2010 and was immediately considered by many serious collectors to be as rare as a bow could possibly be. The following year, a second one surfaced, and most recently a third was found.
Now with three of the 56” 1959 MSW Kodiaks being found in the past five years, is it still the rarest Model 1959 Kodiak?
If you have a 1959 Kodiak that you think 3 or fewer of it may be known to collectors, post an image of the bow and let’s determine how many of these bows are known and just how rare they really are...
On this first post, we will record the rare 1959 Kodiaks that are reported and continue to keep the list updated as additional bows are posted...
Will will include 60" and 64" MSW Kodiaks so readers can get an idea of what the serial numbers were and how many are known to those on this forum.
1959 Kodiak Maple Sight Window
... 56" - AA105 - 18#@24" - Wade
... 56" - ????? - 35#@26" - Chuck (serial number gone and irrecoverable)
... 56" - AA118 - 26#@26" - John
... 60" - BA117 - 60# no coin - Charles
... 60" - BA259 - 48# - coin - Todd
... 60" - BA260 - 48#@28 - no coin - Bjorn
... 60" - BA276 - 45# - coin - Wade
... 60" - BA307 - 45# - no coin - Norm
... 60" - BA312 - 50# - no coin - Kenny
... 60" - BA365 - 55# - no coin - Wade
... 60" - BA979 - 47# - coin - Wade
... 60" - ????? - ??# - Chuck
... 60" - ????? - ??# - John
... 60" - BB032 - 50# - coin - Norm
... 64" - DA042 - 45#@28" - no coin - picapica
... 64" - DA338 - 50# - coin - Wade
... 64" - DA408 - 65#@30" - coin - Gary
... 64" - DA589 - 50#@28 - coin - Bjorn
... 64" - DA673 - 50# - coin - Craig
... 64" - ????? - 65# - coin - Wade (serial number removed by Glenn St. Charles)
... 64" - ????? - ??# - Chuck
... 64" - ????? - ??# - John
1959 Kodiak Dark Rosewood Sight Window
... 60" - BA037 - 44# - Wade
... 60" - BA067 - ??# - Craig
... 60" - BA075 - ??# - Craig
... 60" - BA269 - 40# - Chuck
... 64" - DA020 - 45# - Papabear08
... 64" - DA093 - 44# - Wade
... 64" - EL963 - 42# - Chuck
... 64" - ????? - ??# - Craig
1959 Kodiak Bubinga Sight Window
... 60" - BC605 - 55# - Wade
... 64" - DC009 - 42# - Chuck
... 64" - DC842L - 60# - Wade
1959 Kodiak Wedge Sight Window
... 64” - DA721 - 97# - Jeff
... 64" - DE288 - 80# - Wade (signed by Glenn St. Charles)
... 64" - 22HX5R - 123# - John
The three known 56" Maple Sight Window Kodiaks in order as listed above...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/5956inMSWs.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/5956inMSWs.jpg.html)
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I’ll start it off with an early 60” Rosewood sight window 1959 Kodiak.
I have owned two of these 60" bows, Chuck now has the other one. Although I cannot recall seeing a third one, I’d bet that others exist… but how many one, two or more?
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59RWSW.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/59RWSW.jpg.html)
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I have the dark rosewood version in 2 different lengths, still looking for the 56"...... it's out there...
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/minnesota070.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/biggriz61/media/minnesota070.jpg.html)
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I assume these are the "coinless" ones. I have a 64" of that one.
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Chuck -
When you make the statement "it's out there...", do you know of any 56" Rosewood Sight Window 1959 Kodiaks that actually physically exist?
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I know it's dangerous but I've been thinking are there many EXP 59 Kodiaks around as I have never seen one .?? I do have a EXP Kodiak Magnum that of course looks like a baby 59'60'.
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Wade- Nope, I have not personally seen a 56 inch Rosewood site window '59 Kodiak.... I'm looking for RH Bubinga site window '59 Kodiaks in the 56 and 60 inch lengths as well.... to go with my 64 incher
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Speaking of rare bows.... how many 62" 1955 Kodiaks have you ever seen? I need to get some pics of mine.
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Originally posted by papabear08:
I assume these are the "coinless" ones. I have a 64" of that one.
Gary -
What is the serial number and draw weight of your 64" Rosewood Sight Window Kodiak? I will record it on the above list.
The Rosewood Sight Window Bows I have are coinless. Coin or no coin isn't significant as that is a cosmetic item that could easily be put in or not be put in.
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Originally posted by alaskabowhunter:
Wade- Nope, I have not personally seen a 56 inch Rosewood site window '59 Kodiak.... I'm looking for RH Bubinga site window '59 Kodiaks in the 56 and 60 inch lengths as well.... to go with my 64 incher
Chuck -
What is the serial number and draw weight of your 64" Bubinga Sight Window 1959 Kodiak? I just added the 60" and 64" Bubinga Sight Window to the list...
Also what are the serial number and draw weights of your Dark Rosewood Sight Window 1959 Kodiaks that you reported?
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Wade,
the bow is what I would call dainty- thin in the grip and narrow limbs.
64" > 45# > DA020 gold script.
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Gary -
Thanks for so quickly posting the specs on the 64" Dark Rosewood Sight Window and for emailing me the image.
Yes, like yours, the Dark Rosewood and other early 1959 Kodiaks that I have are small in the grip and have thin limbs. I prefer the thin grip much more than the fat grip of the later 1960 Kodiaks that feels like a tennis ball in the hand.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59RSW-Gary.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/59RSW-Gary.jpg.html)
Chuck -
Originally posted by alaskabowhunter:
Speaking of rare bows.... how many 62" 1955 Kodiaks have you ever seen? I need to get some pics of mine.
Although we want to try to keep this thread about 1959 Kodiaks, you should post a photograph (or possibly two), of your 1955 Kodiak with the 62" inscription.
A riser only photograph of it fade out to fade out, with it shown between a 60" and 64" 1955 Kodiak should show if the bow was made on a different form than the 60" and 64".
A second photograph of it, full length, between a 60" and 64" should show if the limb length is different than the 60" and 64".
The only odd length reference that I am familiar with in 1959 Bear Bows is a Grizzly, that is marked 64" rather than 62" like all other 1959 Grizzlies. The riser of the 64" is identical to the 62", the only difference in the 64" is the fact that the limbs were cut a little long, and thus the 64" marking.
Given the reference in the above paragraph, one might conclude that your bow inscribed 62", could be a 60" with the limbs cut a little long.
However, going back to the 1955-56 era, I do have one Kodiak Special that was made on an entirely different form than the standard production models.
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Originally posted by papabear08:
I know it's dangerous but I've been thinking are there many EXP 59 Kodiaks around as I have never seen one .?? I do have a EXP Kodiak Magnum that of course looks like a baby 59'60'.
Gary -
I do remember seeing a photograph of a 1959 Kodiak that was marked EXP, but can not remember the details about the bow. Never did see it in person, but hopefully someone reading this thread owns the bow and can enlighten us and post photographs.
When you said "...EXP Kodiak Magnum that of course looks like a baby 59'60'." , do you mean a 52" bow, marked EXP, with the same glass and same wood as a 1959 or 1969 Kodiak?
What color are the tip overlays of the 52" EXP? Does it have overlays on the riser?
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Just added the Wedge Sight Window 1959 Kodiak to the list in the first post of this thread as it is a legitimately rare sight window variation... I believe that John also has 1959 or 1960, think that one is 123# if memory is still working. Will look that up and post it on the list. Jeff also a photo of another 1959 wedge sight window that was posted on another thread some time back. Will record that one too.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/IMG_30551.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/IMG_30551.jpg.html)
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Wade, EXP has no riser overlays, tips are black glass like '60 Kodaik, glass colors the same as 59'60s and silk screen just says Kodiak.
Will send you pics. Window Bubinga - Walnut???
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Gary -
You have a nice 52" EXP with 59-60 glass colors. Yes, the riser slabs are Bubinga, but not sure about the sight window wood, it may be walnut as you suggest.
Your bow is a near twin to mine, also 52" with 59-60 glass colors, no riser overlays, Bubinga slabs, walnut? sight window, and marked EXP and 68#, shown below on burgundy carpet. I labeled mine a 1960 because of the black and white tip overlays and more importantly the fat, "tennis ball in the hand", grip.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/9e4a943f-a0e2-4a2d-b71e-1673e391b78b.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/9e4a943f-a0e2-4a2d-b71e-1673e391b78b.jpg.html)
Gary's twin brother below with much nicer looking grain in the sight window...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-60-EXP-52in-1.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/59-60-EXP-52in-1.jpg.html)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-60-EXP-52in-4.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/59-60-EXP-52in-4.jpg.html)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-60-EXP-52in-3.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/59-60-EXP-52in-3.jpg.html)
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Wade-
64" Rosewood '59. EL963 64" 40#
60" Rosewood '59 BA269 60" 40#
56" Maple '59 no serial number , 56", 35#@26"
64" Bubinga '59 DC009 64" 42#
as far as my 62" 1955, I'll have to take some pics and load them in photobucket....be patient nothing happens fast in my world... I'll post pics in a new thread...
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Chuck -
Thanks for posting the specs on your rare 1959 Kodiaks. Got them recorded.
This list of rare 59 Kodiaks is beginning to take shape.
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Judging from this image that johnnyrazorhead posted on another thread, it looks like he may also have a Dark Rosewood Sight Window Kodiak shown at the bottom of the image... John, is that a 60" Rosewood Sight Window Kodiak that is nearest to your toes? I'm guessing that it is and will temporally record it on the list on the first post of this thread. What is the serial number & weight of the bottom bow?
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/1959KodiaksallII.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/9e4a943f-a0e2-4a2d-b71e-1673e391b78b.jpg.html)
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Wade,that bottom bow closest to my toes is my 56",1959 Kodiak that I got along with some other unique,experimental bows. I was looking at it earlier tonight after reading your post and wondered if it might be a rosewood sight window. How can I tell for certain? It's very dark but not sure if it's rosewood or purple heart.Serial number is AA039,48#,56".
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John, I hope you clipped the nails for your next picture.
GS
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Originally posted by johnnyrazorhead:
...bottom bow closest to my toes ...wondered if it might be a rosewood sight window. How can I tell for certain? It's very dark but not sure if it's rosewood or purple heart.Serial number is AA039,48#,56".
John - Very carefully pry up the strike plate and look under it to see the more original color of the wood. If the strike plate is original to the bow, you will be able to more easily identify the wood in the sight window, as the wood under the strike plate will be much lighter is the strike plate as been on the bow since it left the factory. If you need to, you can even scratch some finish off the sight window surface under the strike plate to expose the raw unfinished wood. Just glue the strike plate back down with contact cement, (don't use super glue).
I've seen several 59 Kodiaks with dark sight windows that the wood could not be easily identified. Some fifty year plus Purple Heart can get very dark to the point it resembles the darkness of the Rosewood that was used in a limited number 59 Kodiaks.
In my experience, the 59 Kodiaks with questionable sight window wood, have almost always turned out to be Purple Heart.
The Dark Rosewood used in the 59 Kodiak sight window is very similar to the Dark Rosewood used in the 1958 Kodiak Special Sight Window.
Hope some of this helps you to positively identify the sight window wood of your 56" Kodiak.
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Has anyone ever come across a 60" maple sight window 1959 that is marked DA instead of BA? Recently found one that is marked DA in VERY small gold lettering. It should be a 64" bow but it is only 60". Is it mismarked possibly?
Thanks,
DRM
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The problem with serial numbers is that they were inscribed by humans and none of us are perfect, so we all have been known to make mistakes.
Anything could be marked on any bow, accidentally or on purpose, either at the time the bow is made or after it left the factory.
That is why knowledgeable collectors do not rely on serial numbers as the sole determining factor in identification. Serial numbers are a cosmetic factor, like coins in risers, neither of which can be considered as 100% accurate for dating every Bear bow every produced.
You should post an image of the inscription so we can see what you mean by "Very small gold lettering".
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Wade,
What is your email address? I can send you some pics of the bow that my brother took with hi Ipad. The pics are not great but I will try to get you some better ones with my camera. I have not had much luck posting pics on this website! I don't want to hack the thread you started as well. Thanks.
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In regards to mis-marked bows,it is possible. People wrote those specs on the bows and people do make mistakes. I have a 52" 1963 Kodiak Magnum that has 60" factory written on the bow. After writing on several hundred bows I imagine the person(s) responsible could have gotten it wrong on occasion.
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(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector/Articles162.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/Articles162.jpg.html) (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector/Articles164.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/Articles164.jpg.html)
I'm fairly certain this is the more common purple heart sight window. Thought I would post it, perhaps to be used as an example.
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Nice bow Larry.
I have 2 '59s that are pretty uncommon-won't say rare. One is MSW 60" and 48#@28. BA 260-black ink no coin.
The second is MSW 64" and 50#@28 DA 589 it is black ink with a coin.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/bjornweb/DSCN2352.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/bjornweb/media/DSCN2352.jpg.html)
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/bjornweb/DSCN2384.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/bjornweb/media/DSCN2384.jpg.html)
That's the 60" bow.
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Was it somewhat common for '59 and '60 bows to not have a coin? I have Kodiak Deluxe that is smooth as a babie's bottom where the coin should be...
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I have a 64" MSW, 45#@28" - DA 042.
It also has the number in black ink and no coin.
I've read that the lack of a coin on a 59 Kodiak indicates an early production bow.
(http://i.imgur.com/j27nlTI.jpg)
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Looks like we should start recording the serial numbers for all lengths of the MSW...
We should probably add either "no coin" or "coin", which likely prove most of the early bows did not have coins, before the coins became a standard addition to Bear bows.
I will get started on recording that information, but it may take a couple of days to catch up with all that has been posted so far...
Post the specs on any length MSW and I will get them on the list.
I'm sure it will not take long to record enough 60" & 64" MSW to show that they are not nearly as rare as many other models of the 1959 Kodiak models.
picapica - Nice looking 64" MSW, 45#@28" - DA 042.
Bjorn - Thanks for posing the MSW...
60", 48#@28 - BA 260 no coin
64", 50#@28 - DA 589 with coin
Larry - Your 59 looks like it has a darkened purple heart sight window. The grain of the wood is the real clue...
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MSW BA 307 60" 45# Gold Lettering No Coin
MSW BB 032 60" 50# Gold Lettering Coin
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Norm,
Thanks for posting. Added your two 60" MSW to the list on the first post of this thread..
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Hi Wade
I just picked up
DA673 64" 50# MSW
Just like new condition
You can add that to your list
Thanks
Craig
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Craig -
Just added you DA673 64" 50# MSW 59 Kodiak to the list on the first post of this thread.
Thanks for letting us know about it.
You should post some photographs of it...
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/cfokken/Bears%201_zpsz40veoze.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/cfokken/media/Bears%201_zpsz40veoze.jpg.html)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/cfokken/3b7742d7-ef80-43a1-bbfb-d158b46bb242_zpso1edajvi.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/cfokken/media/3b7742d7-ef80-43a1-bbfb-d158b46bb242_zpso1edajvi.jpg.html)
Wade, just a little something I had in the wood shed.... Top two are 60's and bottom 64
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Purple Heart window (hard to see the grain in the wood?), all original and nada Coins!! Very NICE... :) :)
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All three dark rosewood sight window.
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No one likes a show off Craig:)
MSW 60" 48# BA259
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Todd -
Entered your MSW 60" 48# BA259 on the first page of this thread. Does it have a coin?
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Craig -
Nice little something to have in the wood shed.... two 60" & one 64" Dark Rosewood Sight Windows...
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Craig -
Forgot to ask if any of the three have serial numbers?
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delete
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I will try thi (http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s385/bowhunt10again/4a5617d9-31bd-4999-8c2e-05e26db18b8e.jpg) (http://s1049.photobucket.com/user/bowhunt10again/media/4a5617d9-31bd-4999-8c2e-05e26db18b8e.jpg.html) s again.
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BA312 60" 50#
no coin
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Originally posted by imbowhunt10:
BA312 60" 50#
no coin
Kenny -
Nice looking MSW. I entered the data on the list on first page of this thread.
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ThankYou Wade.
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Wade,
It does have a coin.
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Wade I do have a 59 56" bow that the purple heart looks like purple heart up close but lay it down and it looks like the rest of the bow. I have given up trying to post pictures but could send them to you if you like. From what I can tell the numbers say AA625 56" 32# @ 26" B. It is missing the coin and leather grip.
Andy
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I am curious as to the opinions of folks who know so much more than I as to whether the bow that looks a lot like a 1959 64" MSW , no coin, that is currently being offered at the place we do not mention is what it looks like. The photos are crappy, no depictions of overlays, limbs or tips and the serial number doesn't look anything like the sequence of those that are authenticated and reported on page 1 of this thread.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ph8jBmK.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Ph8jBmK)
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It looks real to me, but you are right, could use better pics.
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The article by Matt Dickerson, "Bear Archery Kodiaks 1950-1966", states that some early '59s were built without coins. According to him, the 64" had two different sight window lengths, 6" for weights up to around 50# and 4" for heavier weights. Nothing I've seen in the pictures tells me this is not such a '59, but I don't even play a bow collector on TV, so that's JMHO.
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$1125 for the two bows. Knock off $150 for the one leaves $975 for the 1959. I quit at $650 . Someday I will buy a msw 1959.
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I saw that. someone really wanted that Kodiak.
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Not that long ago, a MSW 59 Kodiak in that condition was a real bargain at $1000.00
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Yeah those were the 'good old days'! :archer:
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What do you all mean by Coin
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(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z117/katswal/medals.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/katswal/media/medals.jpg.html)
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This is new to me, but I just bought my first Kodiak today at a sale. Not sure of the age. The serial is DK545 64" and 61# It has a duel shelf. Left and right handed. It has the Maple riser.
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Chuck, sounds like a Kodiak II, mid-50's. Post some photos so we can ooh and ahh.
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"I saw that. someone really wanted that Kodiak."
Close inspection of the photos of that bow, the serial number especially, suggested that was the third MSW 64" made in 1959. A rare beauty, but I'm not THAT sentimental.
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This is one that got away from me this morning but is now a confirmed sighting.
1959 overlays, very slender grip that never saw a leather wrap, coin location drilled but coin missing. I-beam could be bubinga, could be rosewood, cant tell from the avilable photos.One slab appears to be rosewood, the other looks like it could be rosewood, could be purpleheart, 64", 58?#, SN EXP B
(http://i.imgur.com/qr3SsYT.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BP2IyAL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/w2qV43V.jpg)
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The multiple maple laminations suggest 4 thin lams in the limbs, but no photos of the limbs from the side.
(http://i.imgur.com/EcRmI1c.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/OX3zBDt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8mVhzOb.jpg)
The seller says he picked it up at an auction in Janesville, WI, for re-sale , very dirty and the only bow there. No other info or history.
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So jealous of all your bowsbyou guys have lol. The 59 kodiak is one I haven't owned yet. Can't bring myself to pay that kind of money. (In other words my wife would kill me). Someday it will happen though.cool bows
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Welll....
Mangonboat I can provide some better pictures now.
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag392/packanimal1/20170523_181801_zpsg3g0oaz5.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/packanimal1/media/20170523_181801_zpsg3g0oaz5.jpg.html) (http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag392/packanimal1/20170523_181847%201_zpspksf2phm.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/packanimal1/media/20170523_181847%201_zpspksf2phm.jpg.html) (http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag392/packanimal1/20170523_181955_zpsommudtql.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/packanimal1/media/20170523_181955_zpsommudtql.jpg.html) (http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag392/packanimal1/20170523_180101%201_zpsxgvywrkm.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/packanimal1/media/20170523_180101%201_zpsxgvywrkm.jpg.html) (http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag392/packanimal1/20170523_175816_zps6q2bknaq.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/packanimal1/media/20170523_175816_zps6q2bknaq.jpg.html)
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(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag392/packanimal1/20170523_182348_zpsf9ylwhl2.jpg) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/packanimal1/media/20170523_182348_zpsf9ylwhl2.jpg.html)
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I think both slabs are Rosewood and the Ibeam is purpleheart. the poundage is 38#. And yes the grip is small and thin
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Neat bow!!!!!!!
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Good on you, Bruce! She cleaned up nicely! It'd be fun to know the story behind that one.
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Thanks
Once I finish cleaning it up I will start a new thread with several pictures. One thing occurred to me, the serial number "EXP-B" implies there is at least a probability of there being a bow "EXP-A"...
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Bruce -
Great photographs of a very interestingly inscribed 1959 Kodiak.
Remember seeing at least one EXP inscribed 1959 kodiak about 20 years ago, but at the time did not understand the reason it was marked EXP.
With purpleheart SW, would guess the bow did not precede the initial 64" maple SW production, which some might assume. Would guess the bow was produced much later in the production and marked EXP for a non standard production reason.
The bow also has the three lamination riser overlays, clearly indicating that it was produced much later in the production cycle the the initial bows which had much more ornate/elaborate tip & riser overlays.
Your images show that the bow has two thin maple maple laminations on the back and belly and 4 thin maple limb laminations at the tip. This is twice the usual number of one lamination on the back and belly for a total of two at the tip. The 4 laminations exceeds the usual 2 and sometimes 3 laminations in the 18# to 80# 1959 Kodiaks here at the Arsenal.
As I have posted in the past, even lamination variations was a reason to designate a bow EXP.
mangonboat -
The story behind the EXP inscription may not be as fun or interesting as some may have envisioned.
The whole story may simply be a change in the thickness and number of limb laminations.
--------------------
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experimental..prototype bow?
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Wade, I lean in favor of your thinking..this bow probably was a mid-production experiment with different laminations, although that very slim grip makes me think it was an early -run experiment.
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I have had bows marked EXP but looked every bit like a factor production bow.Only difference on one Grizzly I had was a piece of masking tape with the name of a glue written on it.A former employee of the bow dept. told me it was probably a new glue they were trying out,hence the EXP marking.Nothing visible to the naked eye otherwise.If not for the masking tape on the bow you never would have known.
I also have a 1956 Kodiak that is marked EXP.The bow has a compass mounted in the grip like a 1954 KII or Compass Kodiak and I have seen other post '54 Bear bows with what appear to be factory inlaid compasses in them so I don't think the compass was experimental in 1956.To this day I wonder why the bow is marked EXP.
Strange things going on at Bear back then.
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Brock -
Some less than the most serious collectors, incorrectly (and likely unknowingly), use the terms experimental and prototype interchangeably.
There is a distinct difference in the meaning of these two words, especially for the most serious collectors.
Prototype - the original model of something.
Experimental - an item made to discover, test or demonstrate something.
The meaning of these terms becomes even more blurred for the average person when they see Bear bows that are obviously a prototype, but are marked EXP. It is also important to note that some obvious vintage Bear prototypes are not marked.
Although I have seen many vintage Bear bows that were undoubtedly prototype bows, not sure that I have ever seen a vintage Bear bow marked "Prototype" or "Proto".
In the case of the EXP 1959 Kodiak, using the facts offered in my earlier post clearly prove that it is not a prototype.
mangonboat -
I agree with your suggestion that the bow was likely made later in the thin grip run. However, it is important to note that a thick grip could be easily sanded or routed down to be a thin grip at the factory.
The purpleheart SW likely places the EXP 1959 after the initial run of 64" maple SW bows of approximately 1,000.
John -
I believe in years past that we had a thread that pictured Kodiaks with a factory compass in the handle from each year from 1953 to 1959. I personally have a total of 15 different Kodiaks in the collection with factory compasses in the handle from 1953, 1954, 1954-1/2, 1958, 1959. Would not be surprised to learn of others.
In addition to a change in glue being responsible for designating a bow as EXP, other significant factors such as change in supplier or makeup of glass fibers, change in temperature, pressure, or cycle time in the press (plus countless other variations), could have been responsible for an EXP designation.
Like many factories, lots of variables did change over the course of an entire production year. To me, Bear seems like a typical small factory environment of the era.
Don't really think "Strange things were going on at Bear back then" as you suggest. They were simply trying to make money by producing archery tackle as opposed to documenting every detail of every bow in anticipation that 50 or 60 years later a group of anal retentive collectors might not have sufficient investigative skills to be able to figure out every detail of every bow produced by Bear in that era.
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Wade Thank you for the insight and observations. I was also leaning towards this being an "experimental" bow made closer to the 1960 model run... The lack of the leather grip. I also have a 64" 1960, when I put them together on a flat surface both have almost identical form. The grip is thinner on the 59. And the limb tips of the 59 are slightly more relaxed.
I can agree with your statements about "small factory" experiments... for several years I held a position of "product development" in a small outdoor furniture factory. True I built "prototypes" of Ideas, Which never made it into a production run. I know of at least one home where my "prototype" bar stool is still being used. Other times those prototypes became the "first" run of a production run. Some times Management or the purchasing agent would bring me a none standard wood type and request a production piece be made from the "new" lumber... Sometimes this experimenting process was done for no other reason than to review the machine-ability of the lumber sample. Sometimes a production model was modified slightly because the change would reduce production costs,(a few cents doesn't seem like much until you compound that savings by thousands of pieces produced). Part of my job involved reviewing production processes with the intent to change machining in order to make a process more efficient, or turn out a better product. Sometimes it was deemed, if the customer(or end user) would not be able to discern a noticeable difference between an "experimental" from production piece, the experimental piece went out for sale with as part of the normal production run. In small factories anything is possible.
I kept pretty good notes and made drawing of my ideas and thoughts... When I left the employ of that company they never asked for my journals, nor did I volunteer to leave said journals behind. So for all intensive purposes some of the reasoning for a particular process has been lost from that company's record. And my memory gets worse as the years pass.
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Wade, Very interesting list, lets keep it going, I have 59 Kodiak, #BA117 60" 60# MSW, no coin/ gold lettering. Thank you
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Charles -
Saw the auction for your BA117. Looks like nicely figured rosewood with the dark lines in both slabs. Thought you got it for a reasonable price.
Entered the data on the first post of this thread.
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Wade,
Thank you. I have had several other PHWs but had to wait a while for a chance at a MSW. Im honored to be on the list. Im always interested in looking for consecutive serial numbers to show up. Thanks for all the work you have put in for identification and reference. My daughter who is 10 sits down with me and we discuss the different years and identifying traits of all the different years etc. based on alot of your posts. She will be thrilled to see our bow on the list.
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Originally posted by Pack animal:
Thanks
Once I finish cleaning it up I will start a new thread with several pictures. One thing occurred to me, the serial number "EXP-B" implies there is at least a probability of there being a bow "EXP-A"...
Bruce - Happened to see this thread and re-read parts of it. When I say your post above, my thoughts were what if "B" designated an experiment with glue, e.g., "Bohning" just to grab a name, and there never was an "A"... but maybe there was an "E" e.g., Eicholtz. We may never know the actual meaning of the "B" on your interesting 59 Kodiak.
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Interesting how time flies Wade... I have been rather busy this year. Anyway your logic would be correct; the "B" may only be significant with respect to the builders mind set at the time. If we had been sitting around and brainstorming idea builds this one might have been my idea ie "exp-B" . yours would then have been "exp-W" and so on for every test example we would be comparing. the fact the "EXP" is followed by another character lends to the thought there were more than a single piece made. We could speculate over the logic surrounding the numbering and never really know for sure why,unless we were informed of the rational by the assigner of the designation.
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Just wondering what the heaviest weight 56" Kodiak was known?
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At one time I had a triple 56 Kodiak.!956 Kodiak,56" and 56#.That's the heaviest I can recall seeing as most appear to be relatively lighter in weight.
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Thanks! A triple 56 sounds very interesting!