Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: TRAP on January 20, 2017, 12:50:00 AM
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Let's run a featured vintage archery item every week and we can share what we know about the item and others can chime in with pictures or stories or questions about the week's chosen archery tackle.
It could be a bow, quiver, broadhead, book, photograph, etc. you name it.
There's been a wealth of info shared here in this forum over the years. Guys like Wade, bowdoc, Bjorn, Cam, Rich, Lon, Jack, Ron and others have been generous enough to open up their photo libraries and their historical knowledge to educate and share with all of us.
On Monday, Jan 23rd I will kick us off with something to keep us going a week and then someone else can share the following week.
Almost like a book of the month club.
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Awesome can't wait
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A great idea!
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Great idea TRAP!!!
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I like "Firsts"
First broadheads produced by a company, first bow models, quivers introduced for the first time, etc.
For a manufacturing company, much is at risk when something new is introduced. Will it become a success or failure? Only time will tell. Some "firsts" become highly collectible for several reasons. The item may not be well received by the consumer and therefore no more were made. A small manufacturing run to test the waters may result in less being made initially. Other firsts turn out to be a huge success and in some cases, items introduced decades ago, are still in production today.
This week's chosen archery item qualifies as a First. When you see it on Monday, you be the judge.
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:campfire:
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This will be interesting.
:coffee: :coffee:
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This week in 1961 (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/3390E36C-F306-4784-8BAD-B7BAD03A0E20.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/3390E36C-F306-4784-8BAD-B7BAD03A0E20.jpg.html)
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Introduced by Bear Archery in the 1961 Bear Archery Equipment Catalog, the 52" Kodiak Magnum began a 16 year production run from 1961-1977.
With the exception of the Grizzly, I believe that's the longest model run of any Bear recurve.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/855FCE3C-A6D0-4D01-91B9-18DCFA1F167D.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/855FCE3C-A6D0-4D01-91B9-18DCFA1F167D.jpg.html)
I find it interesting that the 52" Kodiak Magnum ($64.95) sold for a higher price than it's 60" Kodiak ($59.95) counterpart.
Made with Exotic African Rosewood handle and "Grayling Green" bearglas.
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I know there are several Kodiak Magnum collectors out there.
So share your KMags and feel free to give the specs on your bows and share any info about it you like.
I think everyone will agree the Kodiak Magnum was, and is still today, a great success for Bear Archery.
I'll post a couple pics tomorrow of a short, "Grayling Green" limbed 1961 Kodiak Magnum
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(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/4F041A57-08EE-40D7-B075-7CB01D390297.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/4F041A57-08EE-40D7-B075-7CB01D390297.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/8630FA15-92CE-4053-8DEB-CF1F0253E3F0.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/8630FA15-92CE-4053-8DEB-CF1F0253E3F0.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/8E70D3FB-71FA-4C68-A2CB-C6BB9B94D839.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/8E70D3FB-71FA-4C68-A2CB-C6BB9B94D839.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/A1A21715-C4B7-4CA5-8102-3F8A842B290D.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/A1A21715-C4B7-4CA5-8102-3F8A842B290D.jpg.html)
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Great choice Trap; not my favorite Bear bow but one helluva a popular one. Good job.
Shick
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Yeah not my favorite either Shick but it was a great move for Bear.
The grips on the 61 and 62 KMags are amazing and they are surprisingly smooth drawing bows out to 28" or so. I've not owned many of the later models so I'm definitely not a KMag expert.
I'm hoping others will fill in the gaps with later models.
I know there was at least one example of an earlier Kodiak Magnum made prior to 1961. Maybe the owner of that bow will jump in here and enlighten us.
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Very interesting piece of history. Trap thanks for sharing. No idea on the kodiak mags.
Love the look of that 61.
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Trap,
Great thread idea - a featured vintage archery item every week... Don't know that I can "enlighten" as you suggest, but guess I should try to chime in...
Yes, Prior to the 1961 green glass production models, Bear made at least a few 52" bows. In 1961 the 52" bows produced on the same form, became known as the Kodiak Magnum.
The one I have is marked... EXP 52" 68#..., There are no silk screens on either limb, so the bow was finished without a name designation on it.
The glass on the back and belly are the same as a 1960 Kodiak and the tip overlays are the same as a 1960 Kodiak. The riser is a laminated 3-piece I-Beam bubinga 40/20/40. In addition to the one I have, I have also seen a couple of others, one has white glass on the back and belly.
The fact that the Bear Bow name Magnum was not introduced until the 1961 Catalog, may leave questions for some regarding the proper classification of pre 1961 52" bows.
Obviously, there is legitimate evidence to refer to it as either an "EXP 52" 1960 Kodiak" or an "EXP 1960 Magnum".
I usually have it displayed as the bottom bow on the display of 1960 Kodiaks as it has the same color glass and to my eyes, it seems to fit nicely in the descending order of lengths, 64", 60", 56" & 52".
However, I make reference to it in either manner mentioned above.
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Trap,
Although the 1960 EXP 52" 68# is my personal favorite individual Magnum bow...
1963 is my favorite year for the Kodiak Magnums.
Guess I find the 1963 Magnums interesting because they are so noticeably different than the other years of Magnums, which have remarkably similar shapes.
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Awesome information guys. I have a 68 Okay and a 50th anniversary kmag and they are both great shooting bows. Interesting what me Phillips said about how he has an early run of these bows. That's pretty neat.
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There is a Bear ad at archeryhistory.com that details the 1962 KMag, the only one I would own. I shoot mine with confidence at 30 inches because the ad lists max as 31. Larry Hatfield says the 3M Scotchply glass is the best bow glass he ever worked with.
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Hey Dave, does your 62 KMag look anything like this?
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/B913B599-6E41-4525-92AF-E44B139A3B1E.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/B913B599-6E41-4525-92AF-E44B139A3B1E.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/4CBDC996-B08C-431F-908C-53A526BAE36C.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/4CBDC996-B08C-431F-908C-53A526BAE36C.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/81E68CA5-5C99-43BE-B537-43C6F4249A13.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/81E68CA5-5C99-43BE-B537-43C6F4249A13.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/EF0B0C4E-731B-4E18-B5EB-13AB48B1C52D.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/EF0B0C4E-731B-4E18-B5EB-13AB48B1C52D.jpg.html)
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Thanks Wade for talking about your 52" EXP 1960 or 1961. Either way, I'd say that's a pretty special Kodiak Mag.
Have you ever seen film footage or pictures of Fred Bear shooting a Kodiak Magnum? I know in one of Fred's films, Bob Munger and I believe "Valiant Maid",boat captain, Ed Bilderback were shooting crows with Kodiak Magnums.
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DDave,
For 10 years, I shot only a 55# KMag at 29-1/2". At the time, I didn't really realize how severe the string pinch was, even though from the last joint to the end of my ring finger was brown for 10 years. Just thought that was how my hand was supposed to look because I shot all the time. Now nearly 40 years after putting that 52" bow aside for longer bows, that finger is one of the few parts of my old body that looks almost normal.
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Trap,
I like the '62 KMag in your photos. The way the Brazilian Rosewood faded to highlight the grain makes for a great looking piece of wood. I have an I-beam 62 Kodiak that has a self side slab with that has faded to that really light Brazilian Rosewood.
Years ago, I made the mistake of refinishing a dramatically swirled Rosewood riser and learned the hard way that the wood becomes dark once the outer dried out surface is removed and it is refinished.
The '62 KMag I have at present is still all original and still has pretty dark Rosewood. Likely because it seldom saw the light of day.
From one bow to the next, you just never know what Brazilian Rosewood is going to look like. It's just a shame that it became so hard to get.
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Originally posted by TRAP:
... Have you ever seen film footage or pictures of Fred Bear shooting a Kodiak Magnum? I know in one of Fred's films, Bob Munger and I believe "Valiant Maid",boat captain, Ed Bilderback were shooting crows with Kodiak Magnums.
Trap,
Can't say that I have never seen the footage, but at this point in time, I certainly can't remember seeing it.
The second thing to go is your memory, and I can't remember the first.
Will try to remember to look for that footage the next time I am sick in bed on a marathon DVD watching spree.
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Trap,
You probably already know this, but both Bob Munger and Ed Bilderback were two of the guys who hunted with Fred and Dick here in Nebraska.
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My righty was like that with matte refinish. Traded it for a lefty with sapwood I beam in great shape.
DDave
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Wade I really take most of the weight on my middle finger so pinch is not that severe. I consider mine to be a moose bow so do not shoot it much. Minute of moose accuracy comes easily.
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That's a beautiful kodiak mag trap.
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I am about to enjoy one big advantage of shooting my KMag. My basement has a low ceiling and I can shoot a 52 inch bow without worrying about taking out a light.
DDave
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Thanks Nate, I recently acquired the 62 from a good friend. I had no idea what it even looked like. Needless to say, I was/am very pleased.
I can't find a flaw on it but it has a star stamp over the specs. I'd still like to know for sure what the various stamps on Bear recurves indicated.
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Trap:Still a newbie at my advancing age, so be gentle slapping me around if I state the obvious. Reading this morning in J.L. Coppen's book. On page 31 he notes that the star stamp happens on factory refurbished bows. On page 66, he talks about delamination problems in '61 Kodiaks which were often sent back to the factory. These typically "had the original serial number removed" before receiving the star stamp. Hope that helps. If at all needed.
Chuck
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PS: your Kodiak mag is breath-taking! Nice glamour shots!
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The rosewood in that Magnum is stunning.
You got a good one Trap!
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Chuck,
I have read that in Jorge's book and I've researched archived threads here at Tradgang and over on the Wall.
I have no doubt the various stampings were done for a reason and meant something to Bear Archery and their retail distributors, but, all I have ever seen for an explanation, was, speculation, a hunch, or heresay.
I own or have owned a few 22 stamped Bear bows, a few with star stamps, and a 61 Kodiak with the serial number removed with no stamp, and none of them were "severely defected", appeared to be "refurbished" or otherwise damaged.
I can buy in to the theory that stamped bows were returned items and either resold at a discounted price or donated to civic groups to promote archery, but just can't see Bear Archery "refinishing" or "refurbishing" bows. I mean, heck, Bear Archery retooled 3 times in 1961 to produce 3 variations of the '63 Kodiak Magnum. That tells my simple, and sometimes tunnel visioned brain that Fred wanted new shiny unflawed models out there on the landscape to promote next year's offerings. Kinda like the Detroit Auto Manufacturers mentality of, sell new shiny models early and keep improving them to stay ahead of competition.
As nice as the wood is on the 1962 KMag in the pics above, there is a long fairly deep and fairly straight scratch right down the middle of the overlays on the front side of the sight window. Looks kinda like something you'd do, if you weren't careful, with a utility knife while opening a cardboard box with a very nice bow inside. It could be pretty easily sanded out and resprayed. Perhaps, it instead got a star stamp and sold at a reduced price in the "bargain cave" at Bear Archery. I don't know, anyone's guess is as good as mine.
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In fact do we really know those bows were stamped at Bear Archery. Could be they were done at the distributor level. Anyone in touch with Joe St. Charles to get his opinion?
DDave
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Yes, that's another theory that last years undamaged bows were 'written down' and stamped at the retailer by a salesman or at the distributor level.
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Originally posted by TRAP:
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I have no doubt the various stampings were done for a reason and meant something to Bear Archery and their retail distributors, but, all I have ever seen for an explanation, was, speculation, a hunch, or heresay.
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Trap,
The observation in your above quoted paragraph is for the most part accurate.
First - I would suggest that "hearsay" is the correct spelling of the word you refer to as "heresay".
Second - I would ask, what is your definition of that word?
Just feel it is important to convey your definition of the word hearsay, so we all understand what we actually consider to be hearsay.
As I have stated for many years, no printed Bear documentation has surfaced from the era that specifically explains these markings.
However, I have been working on something for several years that may eventually provide conclusive evidence regarding some of the markings on these 1950s and 1960s bows.
To me personally, as a serious collector of vintage Bear Bows, documenting the actual markings on the bows is the important point, e.g., These bows exist with these markings. These are actual facts that can be documented.
Many of the explanations of the "whys" are simply speculation and not deserving of the time & energy they have consumed.
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Had no idea this thread would turn into a lesson in grammar or a spelling contest.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/1C69921A-F147-4C11-B684-DD02E991B93F.jpeg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/1C69921A-F147-4C11-B684-DD02E991B93F.jpeg.html)
Again, I've read and heard many statements, often written or spoken very matter of factly, explaining the meaning of the various stampings on Bear recurves, but I haven't seen any documentation verifying those claims. The person writing or speaking those undocumented claims is passing on something they've heard from someone else and nothing more.
They are not passing on facts, which may influence or help establish parameters such as, rarity, condition, or value. They are instead, merely passing on someone else's speculations.
Lets put the misspelled word in a sentence for clarification purposes. "I consider what I've heard or read about Stamps on Bear bows to be hearsay."
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So, who's going to keep this thread going with a new "This Week in 19__ post tomorrow?
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Trap -
Would you consider an actual quote from someone as hearsay?
Do you consider a written document from a Bear employee attesting to markings they personally placed on bows to be actual evidence or hearsay?
In the case of quoting Fred Bear's exact words from an unpublished VHS tape, I do not consider that to be hearsay.
It is important to first establish exactly what criteria we would use to accept something as fact and what would be considered hearsay.
The legal definition of hearsay is generally considered to be much narrower.
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Speaking of Magnums...
How about the 1963 Dogleg Magnums...
Type I, Type II & Type III...
Purportedly redesigned and then re-redesined because of design flaws...
But who among us can post a photograph of a broken one?
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Kodiak%20Mag%20Floyds%20Lamp.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Kodiak%20Mag%20Floyds%20Lamp.jpg.html)
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Nice light.
Never seen a broken one, but now I've seen one with a hole drilled in the upper and bottom limb.
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So, nothing to share this week folks?
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Trap,
Many, of the Type I & Type II Magnums were rounded up back at the Bear Factory in Grayling,and given to dealers for use as unique door handles in their shops.
I have seen several of these Type I & II Magnums drilled with holes that were used as door handles or lamps. All originated from Bear.
Floyd Eccleston got some of these magnums from Bear and used them to make lamps.
Over the years, I have seen three different Magnum Lamps that Floyd made.
The lamp in the photograph in the above post is Floyd's personal lamp that was in his shop until I removed it in 2008. It has been in the Antique Archery Arsenal & Museum ever since that time.
In 1979 Floyd brought one his Magnum Lamps to the Bowhunter Nations in Clinton, Indiana and very generously donated it. I was the more than fortunate winner of that lamp.
Every Bear bow collector in the country who heard that I won the lamp, tried to trade or buy the lamp from me because at that time the Type I & II were more than difficult to find in the wild.
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I'm betting none of the lamp legs you are aware of have star stamps on them.
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While a bit off topic and esoteric, the legal notion of hearsay is somewhat nuanced, in a way that might enlighten our discussion.
"Hearsay" is an out-of-court assertion offered as evidence to prove as true the matter asserted. If it is offered for some other reason, it is not hearsay. The reason for excluding hearsay is that sworn testimony of witnesses in the courtroom is subject to cross examination and other scrutiny which is more likely to establish whether the matter asserted is true or not, i.e. is the witness credible? Is the information consistent with other believable evidence? So, as an example,"Fred Bear told me that the star stamp was for no-warranty bows, which could be anything from promotional gifts, dealer samples, deeply discounted bows purchased by employees from the company store". This statement is inadmissible hearsay as to the meaning of the star stamp, but it is legitimate evidence for other purposes,e.g., to show that the speaker had spoken to Fred Bear.
The legal evidence rules excluding hearsay are subject to many exceptions for assertions made in circumstances traditionally considered to be trustworthy. That includes everything from dying declarations, statements against self-interest, statement contained in records made and maintained in the usual course of business or government records.
So even if we cant find any explanations for stamped bows in official records from the factory, I am willing to consider the reliability of information from other sources that is consistent with other evidence, from sources previously determined to be reliable,or given at risk to one's self interest. As an example of the last, a senior member of TG with a two digit member number who has in their collection a 1961 Kodiak with fantastically figured rosewood with a star stamp who says" I picked this up cheap in 1962 as a no-warranty second from the factory store in Grayling" would be more credible that someone with a member number above 50,000 and no previous posts who was selling the same bow with the assertion that the star stamp meant that it was a bow pulled from final inspection of day-to-day production by Fred Bear himself for gifts to VIP's and celebrities and he got it from his mom who was Johhny Weissmuller's masseuse..
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Trap -
None of the 7 Dogleg Magnums that I presently have are stamped with a star. In thinking back I believe I can count 8 more Dogleg Magnums that have spent time here at the Arsenal, but are now blessed with a new home. Have also seen perhaps a half dozen additional bows that were owned by others. Can’t say for sure about the ones not here now that have been examined over the years, as I have seldom ever have considered a stamping as a truly noteworthy feature.
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Mark -
Thank you so much for your legal brief. There is no substitute for hearing professional advice.
I believe your sentence below, clearly states the issue …
Originally posted by mangonboat:
… So even if we can’t find any explanations for stamped bows in official records from the factory, I am willing to consider the reliability of information from other sources that is consistent with other evidence, from sources previously determined to be reliable, or given at risk to one's self interest. …
To me, determining the reliability of the information is always the most crucial factor.
Even documentation from Bear is not always accurate. I have seen an endless number of entries in the 1950s and 1960s Bear Catalogs that are inaccurate because the existence of actual artifacts produced by Bear clearly proves the entries to be in error.
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I really enjoyed the beginning of this thread and hoped it would continue in the direction it was intended, but the leagalleze has taken the fun out of it. I'm sure I missspelled something, but I won't be back to see it corrected.
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So what happened to this thread? :dunno:
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It's just sitting here waiting on someone to step up and add a vintage archery item for us to talk about.
The KMags didn't go over real well. I know a lot of folks have them but not many were shared.
I'm sure there's something of interest to be shared by everyone that visits this forum.
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Never hurts to discuss the Kodiak Deluxe Trap.
DDave
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In particular I often wonder at what point in 1960 a decision might have been made to discontinue production.
DDave
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I think Kenny has a very valid statement above. To much pontificating and not enough enjoyment in the sharing of info.............
Perhaps time to step back and take a look so that all can enjoy and participate in this thread again without feeling they will be making a mistake and have the thundering correction come down!
Wisdom is truly and always appreciated but shouldn't be feared!
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I have reread the prior posts several times and may have a different perspective than some others. Sometimes, writing does not convey the spirit or mood of the writer. What some people have taken as a rebuke, I simply do not see as such. We all know what I am saying here. Wade is the Sgt. Joe Friday of the Bear Archery world. Sgt. Friday was famous for saying; "just the facts please". I, too, have been corrected when I have used a shotgun approach to the truth but I do not take it as a rebuke or feel that it is personal in any way. It is just a setting out of the verified facts if there are any, and if not it is a reminded not to spread gossip. I value verified factual information and appreciate Wade sharing his knowledge with us. Too much of our life today is based on opinions and not truth. Thanks to Wade for trying to keep us on the right path when it comes to Bear Archery history.
Now, can we move on to another subject and keep this well intended thread moving?
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If I'm not offended, nobody else should be. And I'm most certainly not.
I've misspelled words before. And used the wrong word in places it shouldn't be used. So has Wade Phillips.
I couldn't agree more that we should stick to the facts whenever we can and in instances we can't present facts based on reliable documentation, we should let others know the information we share is based on speculation.
There's nothing wrong with speculating a little. That's part of the fun of collecting vintage archery tackle or anything else. It's fun to wonder why something was done the way it was done.
Maybe, some will criticize me for my response to Chuck (desertrat49) where I mentioned the word "heresay"for the first time. If so, Chuck, I apologize. I promise, no insult was intended. Just a wordy way of saying what I've heard doesn't necessarily fit what I've seen as far as condition of stamped Bear bows.
Dave, I think 1960 Bear Kodiak Deluxe's would be a wonderful vintage archery item to talk about for a few days. Many think they shouldn't be shot but I know you shoot yours regularly. Please feel free to post some pics and share with the rest of us what you know about them. I think the Deluxe is one of the best looking models Bear Archery ever shipped out of Grayling.
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ALL very valid point above!
Sometimes thoughts are conveyed in the written as Brad points out that can be taken differently then intended.
So much good information has come from this site over the years that it would be nice to see it being shared again!
Lets see the 1960 Deluxes!
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Well, I would love to share some pictures of Deluxes but I am so fed up with the process taking me a half hour to post one picture that I have sworn off posting pictures on this site until something changes. It takes about a minute over at brand X traditional bowsite.
Is there a way to go to other Tradgang threads and move pictures to new threads? I've posted quite a few already.
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Brad, if you have an iPhone and a Photobucket App it is so easy once you get the hang of it.
I'll be glad to help
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Thanks Trap, I know how to do it. I even think I know why it is such a convoluted screwed up method. Until something changes it just is not worth the effort.
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I used to post pics. Gave it up too. Like any 57 year old bow some Deluxes
are fine to shoot and some are not. I happen to have one that was pretty clearly made by someone who quickly sorted out how to use Crystalight glass.
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Dang..didnt mean to de-rail the train. I was kinda hoping for some show and tell on 63 K Mags. There were two Type 3's on the market this past week and I always liked the look of those. Would love to hear and see more about the 1960 Deluxe, especially as Dave uses one as his go-to big game slayer. If somebody doesnt jump on in here, I'm gonna post some 62 K special thoughts and pics.
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Originally posted by damascusdave:
In particular I often wonder at what point in 1960 a decision might have been made to discontinue production.
DDave
DD -
Likely Bear's decision to discontinue production on the Kodiak Deluxe occurred at at the point when they realized that had a problem with making a profit on this model.
If the 1960 Kodiak Deluxe had been Bear's best selling bow with the highest margins and the fewest problems, it likely would have continued in production until that was no longer the case.
Knowing Fred was a common sense businessman, I would have to guess that his strategy for all products was pretty much the same.
Checking the 1959 & 1960 archery periodicals to find the last dated advertisement for the Deluxe is likely the most easily accessible information to establish a date that advertising was discontinued.
In the absence of a dated memo "From the Desk Fred Bear", declaring a halt to Deluxe production, we may never know if it was really May 29, 1960 or Nov 8, 1960 as rumored here for the first time ever as two conflicting fictitious dates for the official end of production for the Kodiak Deluxe, (this paragraph is a total and complete joke).
Now, we will see how long it takes for the internet rumor mill to fabricate a date.
I still have that unclaimed 4-figure reward for the 60" Kodiak Deluxe serial # LA001...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/DELUXE1.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/DELUXE1.jpg.html)
Not sure if we want to see all Bear Bows with the word Deluxe, but if so here are 5 lengths of the Kodiak Special Deluxe bows...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/KSD-1.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/KSD-1.jpg.html)
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This is the worst looking Kodiak Deluxe that I ever owned (before I sent it to Brad)...
Almost 11 months ago, Brad posted these images on another thread on this site... before he began a more than challenging restoration...
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg583/bradlehmann/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4758_zpsvbpirn6n.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/bradlehmann/media/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4758_zpsvbpirn6n.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg583/bradlehmann/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4759_zps9inhyt3e.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/bradlehmann/media/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4759_zps9inhyt3e.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg583/bradlehmann/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4766_zpsrbaec1vc.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/bradlehmann/media/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4766_zpsrbaec1vc.jpg.html)
Brad's after image is what we think of as a pretty much typical 64" Butcher Block Kodiak Deluxe...
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg583/bradlehmann/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4844_zpsx1rsentw.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/bradlehmann/media/Wades%20Bows/IMG_4844_zpsx1rsentw.jpg.html)
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Those bows are absolutely beautiful. Thanks for sharing those pics. I love all the stuff I learn won trad gang
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A 100# Kodiak Deluxe....WOW!!!!!
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Trap -
Yes, 100# Wedge Sight Window Kodiak Deluxe. Truly, a chunk of lumber.
Possibly the rarest of the seldom seen Wedge Sight Window Kodiaks.
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Originally posted by warpedarrow:
...
Is there a way to go to other Tradgang threads and move pictures to new threads? I've posted quite a few already.
Brad -
Yes, there is a very simple way to re-post your already used images in new threads, just as I have reused your original images in the above thread.
Just go to the original thread that has the image you want to copy, then click on it, which will take you to the location where you originally posted the image, then copy the URL, just like you did originally.
Once copied, just past the URL into the thread like you did when you original posted the image.
The whole process takes less then 30 seconds rather than 30 minutes.
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Brad -
Can't ever remember being mentioned in the same paragraph (let alone sentence) as Sgt. Joe Friday. However, as a kid, I did watch a lot of Dragnet when episodes were originally aired from 1951-1959.
To me, Friday's "just the facts please" approach has always seemed appropriate for an investigator.
Likewise, the same approach seems logical to me for collecting.
There is has been a lot of investigation that has occurred in the threads on this site. Many members have contributed to various investigations. Some great information has surfaced as a result of these investigations.
While on certain subjects, I know some have said the truth is greatly over rated, I have never understood a legitimately honest reason why anyone would want to hear anything less than the truth about collectibles.
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Thank you Wade. I will experiment with that.
I hadn't realized that it has been nearly a year on that once in a lifetime (hint hint) restore.
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If you are up to more re-stores, I might be about to find something else here to send you to work on..
Have a few extra bows stored in the ceiling...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Extra%20Bows%201.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Extra%20Bows%201.jpg.html)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Extra%20Bows%202.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Extra%20Bows%202.jpg.html)
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Mango,
I can play the game on the '62KS if that is where we want to go. It will be a while though as I have some obligations to take care of prior to experimenting with Wade's method for posting old pictures.
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Gorgeous risers!
Any chance of getting some pics of the back and belly side of the limbs along with some descriptive narrative?
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Originally posted by Wade Phillips:
If you are up to more re-stores, I might be about to find something else here to send you to work on..
Have a few extra bows stored in the ceiling...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Extra%20Bows%201.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Extra%20Bows%201.jpg.html)
Wade any rough 62 Kodiak's or 62 mags??
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Originally posted by Larry m:
Gorgeous risers!
Any chance of getting some pics of the back and belly side of the limbs along with some descriptive narrative?
Larry -
The images are reused from 2009 and only of the shelf side.
Would have to take additional images and upload them, time consuming as Brad mentioned earlier.
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Originally posted by Gator1:
... any rough 62 Kodiak's or 62 mags?
[/b]
Sorry -
No 62 Kodiaks or Kodiak Magnums up there.
A quick scan looks like these are some of the Bears...
Kodiak 54, 55, 56, 58
Kodiak Special 57, 61
Mag, 65, 67
Super Kodiak 68
Grizzly 54, 65, 67
Cub 58
Alaskan 59
Rangers
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Just searched for Kodiak Deluxe threads and found this one that Dave started in 2014 about Kodiak Deluxe serial numbers...
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=006761#000000
It is a single page, an interesting read, and illustrates how easily critical information can come to the surface.
Hopefully Dave is no longer confused about the 1960 Kodiak Deluxe serial numbering sequence and the change that took place mid year.
The last 2014 post of that thread bears repeating,
"DDave,
There were many changes to Bear Serial Numbering sequences over the years. Some changes were made mid-year so you may never find HA999. At some point in 1960 all the Bear Serial Numbering changed from beginning with two letters, to beginning with two numbers. This change is proven out in the posts above of Serial Numbers of bows in the possession of zepnut and warpedarrow...
The four Kodiak Deluxe bows that I have kept that start with the standard two letters are...
HA001 - 56" - 31# - the first standard production 56" Kodiak Deluxe
IA723 - 60" - 40#
LA001 64" 38# - the first standard production 64" Kodiak Deluxe
LA408 - 44" - 100# - the only Wedge Sight Window Kodiak Deluxe that I've heard of in existence (there are likely others as the Kodiak Deluxe was Bear's best ever at the time)
I am still looking for the 60" Serial Number IA001 - the first standard production 60" Kodiak Deluxe
Although I may never find the elusive 60" IA001, it is of great comfort to have a 60" Kodiak Deluxe that precedes IA001"
[/b]
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For the sake of clarity, and benefit of all who do not re-read the entire 2014 thread...
The Deluxe bows mentioned in the referenced 2014 thread that were made after the serial numbering sequence was changed from beginning with two letters to beginning with two numbers are...
Brad's 27XX18 60" 50#
zepnut's 22HX1 60" 45#
zepnut's 19P32 60" 55#
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Sorry to report that I have absolutely no logical explanation, (other than "s...it happens") for Brad's Kodiak Deluxe with the original serial number ...
AO14AA, 60" 42#
However, I do have an UN-provable, half baked and unlikely wild theory that that I would never state privately nor publicly.
Frankly, having these "odd ducks" is part of the fun of collecting Bear Bows. Occasionally there is something that forces a person to use some of those otherwise idle brain cells.
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Please put absolutely no weight on the oddness of the AO prefix bow. Information came to me that showed a mistake was made when lettering the bow sometime after the refinish. I have since sanded off the lettering and the bow is as they say in Texas, "nekkid". I could not or would not have a bow in my collection, especially a Kodiak Deluxe, with a serial number that someone someday might think made it a rare bow. Never the less, it is still a gorgeous bow and I am happy to own it.
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Wade,
I nearly got it work. Posting a picture from an old thread that is. I had the url copied but once I did that it would not let me leave photobucket. Maybe I owe them some money. I finally had to just close all three windows: 1) this thread 2) the thread that I was trying to copy from and 3) photobucket
It only took me eleven minutes to access the url on photobucket. So far, this isn't much of an option for me. Photobucket has been really messed up the last few times that I tried to do any work on it. I will keep trying.
Meanwhile, send me a picture or two of a couple of bows that need help. :goldtooth:
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(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg583/bradlehmann/Lefty%20Deluxe/11301460Deluxe034_zps275d3748.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/bradlehmann/media/Lefty%20Deluxe/11301460Deluxe034_zps275d3748.jpg.html)
This a lefty that I refinished. Jorge Coppen purchased the bow last fall.
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Well, thirteen minutes of watching a little arrow going in a circle confirmed that photobucket is apparently having a severe midlife crisis.
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Hi Wade
I understand and appreciate all the info. Ever see other limb veneers different then zebrawood?
Beautiful work on that bow for Mr. Coppen........
Nicely done Brad
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I can get you 684 serial numbers closer Wade.
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Brad -
Just did an actual time-study on our experimental recovery project.
The URL of this is a Special Deluxe image that took less than a minute to copy from photobucket and post on this thread. It was posted on a thread on this site in May 2015 by Vincent Pokryfki (highlife)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc4/highlife6/bearbow1_zpspcmz3aeh.jpg) (http://s219.photobucket.com/user/highlife6/media/bearbow1_zpspcmz3aeh.jpg.html)
From your description of what you see on the screen, I would guess your problem is either with your software or with your photobucket account, perhaps too many images.
"If all else fails, reboot", that was the common Microsoft fix that I employed most frequently during my long tenure in fiber systems development.
It is still the most common fix I use on my PC. Guess it is about the only fix I remember.
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Wade,
You apparently have much better internet service. I quite often have to enter passwords two or three times because Hughesnet is incapable of keeping a steady signal to and from my location. Rather than cancel and have a fight on my hands, I have opted to tough it out for a few more months until the contract expires.
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Brad,
We are fortunate to have pretty reliable highspeed Internet access here. So I very incorrectly, assume everyone has it.
In the days of dial up and slow access, the only two fixes that ever seem to work for me were keeping my fingers crossed and praying.
I'm certain both methods are just as effective today as they were 20 or 30 years ago.
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zepnut's images of his Double 55 Deluxes that he posted on this site in Dec 2014
1960 Kodiak Deluxe (Butcher block sight window) 55#
1960 Kodiak Special Deluxe 55#
(http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/zepnut/DSCF6200.jpg) (http://s581.photobucket.com/user/zepnut/media/DSCF6200.jpg.html)
(http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/zepnut/DSCF6203.jpg) (http://s581.photobucket.com/user/zepnut/media/DSCF6203.jpg.html)
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Originally posted by Larry m:
Hi Wade
... Ever see other limb veneers different then zebrawood?
...
Larry -
Have never owned any veneers other then zebrawood on a Deluxe.
Can recall seeing a couple of bows that had maple under clear glass, but remember for sure that at least one was not a Deluxe. Not sure of the other.
Have you ever seen an I-Beam Kodiak Deluxe with no zebrawood inset in the riser?
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Originally posted by TRAP:
I can get you 684 serial numbers closer Wade.
Trap -
IA039 ? What is the condition of the bow?
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Great finish, great glass. 2 screw holes for sights. And it has a quiver bushing for a Bolt-on quiver. Yes you guessed it, some idiot let the quiver spin around a bit at some point in the past. 60"46#
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I don't get the opportunity to see many Deluxe's so no as to not seen zebrawood inset in the riser.
Striking looking bows.... Very unfortunate the clouding, stress and delamination issues. Certainly one of Bears top eye catchers!!
Good thread Trap..........
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Originally posted by Larry m:
... Ever see other limb veneers different then zebrawood? ...
Larry -
What veneers have you seen other than zebrawood?
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Trap,
Think I'll keep IA723 as it is in pretty nice condition.
Really appreciate you mentioning IA039. Perhaps, if it were excellent or a single digit number, it would be of more interest.
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There are been several recent sales of Kodiak Deluxe and Kodiak Special Deluxe bows.
A recent sale, 60", 48#...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2060-48.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2060-48.jpg.html)
There have even been a couple of remakes that have been sold recently...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Look%20Alike.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Look%20Alike.jpg.html)
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They are gorgeous when you find one with minimal stress lines and/or clouding. Fred was about fifty years ahead of the game on that one. I have been reading about and even seeing some clouding issues on the clear Gordon glass on some very recent bows, so it isn't totally figured out yet. But there are lots of bows out there now with clear glass over some fantastic veneers. I have a 2006 Martin Serengeti that has limb veneers that I would love to have a Deluxe.
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Again Wade,
Just don't have the opportunity to get my hands on many of the Deluxe's and the very few have been zebrawood veneer on the lam's. Just thought I would run that by you to see if any have shown up!
That is a sweet one you recently acquired. The original has that nice gloss finish where the remake looks satin. I prefer the gloss. To my way of thinking it has more appeal as there is something about an original Bear along with the history that just makes it the better choice. Certainly would be worth a reprisal effort from Bear if done right.
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I agree Larry,
Classic Bear recurves are supposed to be glossy. I have a 59 Repro with a Satin finish and it just doesn't look right IMO.
Keep those Deluxe's coming!!!!!!
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This is a Kodiak Special Deluxe that sold at auction recently with the original bow sock... Just saved an image to post here.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Kodiak%20Specialk%20Deluxe%20with%20Sock.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Kodiak%20Specialk%20Deluxe%20with%20Sock.jpg.html)
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Larry,
Guess I do own an unusual Kodiak Deluxe veneer...
The not so rare, tiger striped zebrawood veneer Kodiak Deluxe... :) Brad took these images before he restored this bow.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/0000%201Brad%20IMG_4777_zpsq4f918ig.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/0000%201Brad%20IMG_4777_zpsq4f918ig.jpg.html)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/0000%201Brad%20IMG_4774_zps2ymfsnhb.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/0000%201Brad%20IMG_4774_zps2ymfsnhb.jpg.html)
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Two months ago, Shandor sent this image of one of his bows, a Kodiak Special Deluxe...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/00001%2045%20KSD%2054%20D.E.%20shaft%2040%20yds.%2012-11-2016%202.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/00001%2045%20KSD%2054%20D.E.%20shaft%2040%20yds.%2012-11-2016%202.jpg.html)
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Shandor has picked up a few more. There for awhile I thought that he was trying to corner the market on KD and KSDs. I heard this evening that there is another one in the works. Maybe we can get him to take the twelve step program and do a show and tell. I will drop him a line in a few minutes.
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Here is a different image of that remake that sold at auction a while back. Not sure who owns it now, but sure is a very nice looking bow...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Look%20Alike%202.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Look%20Alike%202.jpg.html)
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Wow. Great thread and some nice pics. About the last one first, I asked Richard Korte if he would make some replicas with more subtle colors or darker woods like Macassar, and without the red overlays. He doesn't take custom orders but said he was working on some like that. That bow appears to be one of them.
Brad, I'm inching my way towards posting pics here. I've had 6 Kodiak Special Deluxes and kept 3, but still have pics of them all. I have 3 Kodiak Deluxes, soon to be 4. I'm getting Dave's 40# butcher block beauty. Can't believe he's letting go of it but I'm not complaining! Am I, Dave? It's hard to find any KD and especially hard to find a lighter one in great shape.
Wade, I bought that KD you posted that sold recently. The 60" 48#er. It sure is beautiful. Unfortunately when I went to string it the lower limb twisted a lot to one side. I tried to push it back gently towards center and heard a slight creaking sound in the limb, further up towards the riser. I didn't try to do anything with it since. My friend Chad took a 59 Kodiak w/a twisted limb to a local bowyer in N.M., and he fixed it by taking off some of the limb on the opposite side, then did the other limb to balance it, I think, and it shoots fine now. The bowyer, Denny, agreed to try to fix my KD that way but didn't recommend it due to the sound in the limb. I got a half refund from the seller which will pay for the limb twist repair but there's still the issue of the slight creaking sound... which of course may mean the bow is delaminating. Not sure what to do now. If the limb is no good I'm even considering cutting the limbs off and attaching take down limbs. Any advice from anyone?
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one try with photobucket. Guess I have to get directions.
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Here's another try. It's probably too big so we'll see how long it lasts. This is the 60" 48# KD I got recently, with the twisted limb. BTW the twist is not visible when the bow is unstrung.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2048%2060%20inch%20right%20riser_zpsostgjvrj.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2048%2060%20inch%20right%20riser_zpsostgjvrj.jpg.html)
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Here's the other side of the riser. The old strike plate was coming off and the feather rest was one of those tall squishy types that doesn't work well, so I replaced both. The strike plate is beaver tail. Not original shape but I was having fun cutting it to resemble a beaver tail!
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2048%2060%20inch%20left%20riser_zpsrfvlm466.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2048%2060%20inch%20left%20riser_zpsrfvlm466.jpg.html)
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The window without plate or rest. The grain is quite beautiful, the pic doesn't do it justice.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2048%2060%20inch%20window%20cleaned_zps4itfgbqq.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2048%2060%20inch%20window%20cleaned_zps4itfgbqq.jpg.html)
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This is getting to be fun. Only takes a fraction of a second to load here with a 4G connection. Here's a pic I took as soon as getting it out of the box, it was getting dark but I couldn't wait!
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20170117_170315_zpsm9i29dfn.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20170117_170315_zpsm9i29dfn.jpg.html)
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Some of the limbs are quite dark which is of course beautiful. It has some stress lines and a tiny bit of clouding on one limb. OK, I think that's enough pics of this bow for now. Next time I'll post some of a BB 43# 64" KD I was lucky enough to get from a Tradgang (http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20170117_170321_zpsiufozgfm.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20170117_170321_zpsiufozgfm.jpg.html) member... not Dave's.
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OK, I changed my mind. Since Wade showed that KSD pic I decided to show a few more. Zebrawood flair. 66".
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Special%20Deluxe%20Bows/20161029_114433_zpsuqkc3uim.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Special%20Deluxe%20Bows/20161029_114433_zpsuqkc3uim.jpg.html)
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Oh yeah, and a butcher block window. Here's the other side.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Special%20Deluxe%20Bows/20161029_114516_zpsva2giran.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Special%20Deluxe%20Bows/20161029_114516_zpsva2giran.jpg.html)
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That pic that Wade posted of this bow is why I love these bows so much, aside from their beauty. It shoots straight! As long as I do. They don't all end up hitting the bulls eye like in that pic but when I'm shooting right, it's the easiest bow I have to shoot that well. Same with my others. That was from 40 yards and the arrow was not even matched that well to the bow. 54# spine. Now I'm shooting these arrows made by David Ellenbogen, which he made for a 50# '60 Kodiak... to match the bow in looks as well as spine. This KSD shoots them perfectly which is prety amazing, considering the arrow is spined at 63#... 19#s higher than the actual draw of this bow. Looks pretty great with it too, huh?
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Special%20Deluxe%20Bows/45%2066%20in%20KSD%20D.E.%2063%2023-64%20in%2029%20in%20arrows%201-28-2017%206_zpsxkzoewwc.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Special%20Deluxe%20Bows/45%2066%20in%20KSD%20D.E.%2063%2023-64%20in%2029%20in%20arrows%201-28-2017%206_zpsxkzoewwc.jpg.html)
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One last post for now. We're talking about facts and beautiful bows. Here's a plug for the beauty part. I shoot better when I love the way a bow looks! If the arrows look great with it, even better! It's winter now, raining, and I can't shoot b/c of a inguinal hernia and upcoming surgery. But just looking at that pic makes me smile quite a lot! In fact I'm almost swooning! Am I in love?
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I am happy for those of you with good internet. My day is coming.
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Originally posted by 2ndTimeShooter:
Some of the limbs are quite dark which is of course beautiful. It has some stress lines and a tiny bit of clouding on one limb. OK, I think that's enough pics of this bow for now. Next time I'll post some of a BB 43# 64" KD I was lucky enough to get from a Tradgang (http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20170117_170321_zpsiufozgfm.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20170117_170321_zpsiufozgfm.jpg.html) member... not Dave's.
I cringe every time I see a bow has been shipped in one of those triangular tubes from the post office. On more than one occasion this has been the result for me.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/9AB27931-F103-4B24-A314-932968BFB52D.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/9AB27931-F103-4B24-A314-932968BFB52D.jpg.html)
Yikes!!!!!
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I've been trying to decide on a vintage bow for turkey hunting this Spring. The Deluxe might be a good choice. Shoots great!!!!
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/C859A2F8-BA2D-4CF0-ABFE-D287E91996B1.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/C859A2F8-BA2D-4CF0-ABFE-D287E91996B1.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/0166051B-C47F-4664-B951-469A31E1BF61.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/0166051B-C47F-4664-B951-469A31E1BF61.jpg.html)
A small thick leather pad under the bolt-on quiver keeps it from spinning around and making a donut shaped gouge on your beautiful Deluxe riser.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/50A79656-FC7A-4F6E-B72D-D7195BDC4E62.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/50A79656-FC7A-4F6E-B72D-D7195BDC4E62.jpg.html)
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Trap that's a beautiful KD. I don't mean to hijack this thread so someone stop me if the topic is off. But here's the 43# KD I was fortunate enough to get from a Tradgang member who wasn't shooting it b/c it was too light for him.
Oops that didn't work. I'm trying to upload from Imgur, not sure how yet.
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Think I'll stick with photobucket but my connection is slower right now so I'll have to do it later. I was going to show the differences in the grip between two KDs. One with I beam, one without. One much bigger than the other, also. Meanwhile I would be interested to see other peoples' KD grips, from the belly view at least.
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Photobucket is full of malware and spyware these days. I encourage any one to use imgur or other free sites without the spam involved.
I have hundreds of images stuck on photobucket that are full of imbedded junk. Got to go back to hard drives to create new albums on imgur.
Enjoying this thread, thanks Trap for kicking it off!
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Trap, this KD was packaged OK but I've had two bows sticking out of the box like yours. Have we've all had the experience? One was the first KSD I got. It's horrifying among other things. I got one guy to promise not to ship any bows that way again, especially vintage bows. The second guy just said I was whining and there was nothing wrong with how he packed the bow. The first was from the auction site and sellers there fear negative feedback. The second was from big classified page and sellers there face no consequences. I've gotten to the point where how a bow is packed is part of the purchase agreement, if at all possible.
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Here's that 43# 64" KD with serial # LA017.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/KD%2043%2064%20inch%20bb%20riser%20left%20for%20photobucket_zpsiiebugma.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/KD%2043%2064%20inch%20bb%20riser%20left%20for%20photobucket_zpsiiebugma.jpg.html)
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Here's a 50# 64" KD LA 566 that has a 22 stamp on it, but is in nearly perfect condition. Only has 2 small stress lines on the limbs.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2050%2064%20inch%20for%20photobucket%202_zpsar5xtggq.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2050%2064%20inch%20for%20photobucket%202_zpsar5xtggq.jpg.html)
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2050%2064%20inch%20for%20photobucket%205_zpsmnnjjp6f.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2050%2064%20inch%20for%20photobucket%205_zpsmnnjjp6f.jpg.html)
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Here's the 50# KD grip. No I-beam, much fatter grip.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2050%2064%20inch%20grip%20for%20photobucket_zpstrk0pxgo.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2050%2064%20inch%20grip%20for%20photobucket_zpstrk0pxgo.jpg.html)
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And the 43# KD grip. I-beam, much thinner.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2043%2064%20inch%20grip%20for%20photobucket_zpsenitkgfi.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2043%2064%20inch%20grip%20for%20photobucket_zpsenitkgfi.jpg.html)
Unfortunately when I try to rotate the pics vertically they appear squeezed and distorted. Sorry.
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OK one last post on this. Here's the 43# KD with my hand on the grip. It fits like a glove and the arrow almost shoots off my hand.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2043%2064%20inch%20grip%20with%20hand%20for%20photobucket_zps2hn13yri.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%2043%2064%20inch%20grip%20with%20hand%20for%20photobucket_zps2hn13yri.jpg.html)
And the 50# KD grip with my hand. Quite a lot more room, it feels good but my hand can move around on it.
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y307/shandorweiss/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20160917_020729_zpsp9kvymq0.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/shandorweiss/media/All%20Bows/Kodiak%20Deluxe%20Bows/20160917_020729_zpsp9kvymq0.jpg.html)
As Wade, Dave and others have pointed out, each of these bows was unique. Someone can make a KD replica that is like one particular KD, but then it won't be a replica of any other KDs. Or any of these old bows, huh?
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OK, Brad and others. Now I've posted pics on Tradgang for the first time. At first it was fun but I don't know how to do it with Imgur, and the more I tried to do things with Photobucket the worse it got. It does take too much time.
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Go to the Pow Wow and notice how many threads are devoid of pictures. There is a thread about new bows for 2017. Nearly every post should have a picture in a new bow thread. Nope. I am not the only one that has had enough. I will post my pictures on the other trad sites. Most of the guys on Tradgang are there anyway.
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Shandor,
The grip on my KD is fairly sleek. A little palm swell but nothing like many other Bears made in 1960.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/7DC8E962-C395-4CF5-AD96-60316D6C2600.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/7DC8E962-C395-4CF5-AD96-60316D6C2600.jpg.html)
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shandor - wwww.imgur.com is far easier to use than photobucket. i was a huge fan of the bucket when it first came out but it quickly went down the tubes when it went the social network way. it's literally impossible to use now should be avoided. if you -or anyone else- needs help with imgur, please just pm or email me: [email protected]
brad - re: "Go to the Pow Wow and notice how many threads are devoid of pictures. There is a thread about new bows for 2017. Nearly every post should have a picture in a new bow thread. Nope. I am not the only one that has had enough. I will post my pictures on the other trad sites. Most of the guys on Tradgang are there anyway." - what have you had enuf of, trad gang or is it personal issues with your ISP or your personal ability to post images? do you find any or all of that a trad gang issue?
daryl - a friend in hawaii sent me his late aunt's bear bow to auction off in this year's st judes auction. not at all a hunter, but it might have refinish potential .. a bear polar, 66", 32#, classic 60's zebrawood riser ...
(http://i.imgur.com/OBtWy6l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/RtHvjD5.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/60O9Rbf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/s2VjzeU.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/XVE706a.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/lQMddqt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/At1DtR9.jpg)
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Trap, that grip looks just about perfect. Not too big, not too small... a grip Goldilocks would like.
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Rob,
I find it rather antiquated that it takes ten or twelve steps to post a picture. I have poor internet service and it simply isn't worth spending a half hour to post a single picture. But even if I had fast internet service I would still have to go through several steps to upload a picture to another site, then retrieve it to post it on here. My choice for now is to not post photos and maybe make enough noise to get some attention. I see that you noticed.
Tradgang, I assume, is a business. The business of providing a place for like minded archers to discuss and share experiences, stories, and pictures. There are several other sites out there that are doing the same thing. And they are doing it in a convenient easy to use format. I have been hanging around here for five or six years now and have noticed a change. The change is a lack of activity. Some times there will be a post in the history and collecting forum that will go for a couple of days with no comments. It sure wasn't that way when I first started reading the posts on here. There was a vibrant conversation going on almost every day. Not any more. I think that people have found that they can go elsewhere and do what they were doing here, and do it a lot easier. Maybe I'm wrong, but there sure are a lot of familiar folks elsewhere on the internet.
There is a true wealth of information in the archives but it is mostly old stuff and it appears to me to be disappearing as accounts are closed at the photo sharing sites. I am sure that you have seen the old threads where there used to be pictures but now there is some message that the photo is not available. It would be a shame to loose that. Tradgang relying on someone else to archive photos is not a good business plan.
My point is this: Tradgang will compete or Tradgang will become irrelevant. The next move is up to the powers that be. You can kill the messenger or you can listen and figure out how to fix what needs fixing.
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That's a beauty Rob.
I'm pretty sure it's a 1961 model. Not real familiar with Polars.
A thorough cleanup may serve the bow better than a refinish.
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Shandor,
My hair is gray and the locks don't fall like they once did but I still like the grip a lot.
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This is a well run forum I'm happy to be a part
. :clapper:l
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BRAD ...
use www.imgur.com (http://www.imgur.com) and you'll not have those insane photobucket issues. it works. i've been using imgur for many years and i have over 2000 images archived there.
as to trad gang and posted images, there is MUCH you don't understand about trad gang. yer making a broad assumption that we haven't thought seriously about the imaging issues you've brought up, but we have, and for many Many years. contrare to your thinking, there is no easy solution for permanently archiving posted images on trad gang ... and, there are other peripheral concerns in concert with imaging.
just find and use a good, free, online image service such as imgur, and enjoy.
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I am sure that there are many problems and I am not and do not want to be a server geek. I would much rather buy, sell, shoot, and fix up old bows and share what I am doing with like minded folks.
I prefer to keep everything cataloged on my personal computers as I can go to it and have it ready to upload in a matter of a few seconds. Perhaps some day I will try imgur, but I am skeptical as I tried photobucket and a couple of other sites and found them all to be highly irritating. Maybe I'm just an old grouch...
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Shandor,
I just restored and sold a bow identical to Trap's. As much as we talk, I'm surprised that it didn't come up.
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I have a narrow small grip on a 59 KS and I find I have a tendency to just palm it a bit more. Still a very fine shooting bow and I would think as nice as any Deluxe...... But a Deluxe it's not and I still want one! Just particular on the condition and #'s!!
As far as the Trad Gang forum goes, still a main site my friend's and I go to. I'll deal with the picture posting when the time comes up. It ebb's and flows and every now and then it renews and spreads solid good info!
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That's a 62 Polar. They look a lot like a 61 Kodiak Special. Ask Mangonboat about them, he has a lot to say!
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Originally posted by warpedarrow:
... I prefer to keep everything cataloged on my personal computers as I can go to it and have it ready to upload in a matter of a few seconds. Perhaps some day I will try imgur, but I am skeptical as I tried photobucket and a couple of other sites and found them all to be highly irritating. Maybe I'm just an old grouch...
you sure do appear to be an "old grouch". :D
understand that ALL of these online image archival repositories are just that - free web space to stick yer images for reuse elsewhere on the web. yer putting up a COPY of what's in yer computer, not sending yer images off for good into cyber space.
also, imgur allows you to specify if images are public or private, and will allow you to retrieve (download) all the images stored on their servers. images can be sized and edited, as well. but none of that is needed to post images at trad gang. just upload yer big images to imgur, post that imgur image link in a trad gang post, and trad gang takes care of the image sizing.
i would not steer you, brad, wrong - nor any trad ganger. don't waste time jawing about the plight of images and trad gang, make it easy on yerself and others, and just use www.imgur.com (http://www.imgur.com) and be done with posting images at trad gang ...
... and enjoy. ;)
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Yeah, photo bucket is a pain to use. Unfortunately the majority of my archery photos are stored there. Just spent close to an hour loading these pics. Taking us back to the beginning of the thread. Type 1 63 Dogleg Magnum. (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector [url=http://http://http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/archery108.jpg.html] [img]http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector/archery108.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/archery113.jpg.html) /archery113.jpg[/IMG][/url] (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector/archery112.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/archery112.jpg.html) (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector/archery109.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/archery109.jpg.html) (http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/toxo-collector/archery114.jpg) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/toxo-collector/media/archery114.jpg.html)
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beautiful old bow, but new looking bow, larry.
never too late to ditch photobucket for imgur, and do it far easier, and quite right ....
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Thats a beautiful Type 1 Larry, do you shoot it?
Many people will not shoot the Deluxe's because of issues they apparently had in the past. I'm one that does.
Even though I shoot my Deluxe, I don't shoot my Type 1 or Type 2 63 Mags. Not sure why. Maybe I don't want to screw up an opportunity to make a nice lamp some day.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/B1168192-8EFB-4A91-9D09-F1E6A622DAEE.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/B1168192-8EFB-4A91-9D09-F1E6A622DAEE.jpg.html)
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Beautiful Magnums Daryl
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Nice lineup Trap... and No I don't shoot this one!
It has a prominent place on the bow rack along with a nice signed Grumley Deerslayer..........
Yep Rob, I need to work on the change to imgur....
Thanks for the info! :)
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Maybe its my imagination, but some of the most handsome chunks of wood that came out of Grayling were 1963 doglegs. Looking back ,it was kind of a weird year for Bear..the 1962 lineup had so many models that became legends, the 1963 lineup had some PR disasters. Somewhere I saw a good photo of a 63 Kodiak Fred Bear took with him to India on the trip when he shot a Bengal tiger..the grain patterns were similar to Trap's Type 2 K Mag but seemed to be deep in the wood.
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Agree, a lot of the '62 and '63 rosewood was spectacular,from pics I've seen. The target bows from those years also have great figure.
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I love those dogleg Magnums. I have never owned one but maybe someday.
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Originally posted by mangonboat:
Maybe its my imagination, but some of the most handsome chunks of wood that came out of Grayling were 1963 doglegs. Looking back ,it was kind of a weird year for Bear..the 1962 lineup had so many models that became legends, the 1963 lineup had some PR disasters. Somewhere I saw a good photo of a 63 Kodiak Fred Bear took with him to India on the trip when he shot a Bengal tiger..the grain patterns were similar to Trap's Type 2 K Mag but seemed to be deep in the wood.
mangonboat -
Trap's Type 2 Kodiak Magnum Dogleg is Bubinga, the grain pattern that is deep in the wood is what I call Translucent Calico Bubinga. I have an original 1959 Kodiak Special 47#, 64" in excellent condition that has a nice slab of this Translucent Calico Bubinga on both sides of the I-Beam. I got this bow from my old pal, the late Al Reader in a big trade of several bows... Al said if it were left hand, he would have kept it to shoot. My inadequate photograph does not do the wood justice...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59KS-L.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/59KS-L.jpg.html)
Fred's personal 1963 Dogleg Kodiak was not made with Bubinga, but rather it was an I-Beam of three pieces of Brazilian Rosewood with some exceptional grain, especially the grain in the sight window which is unforgettably stunning.
From time to time, Fred set aside some of the most unusual grain wood that they acquired and used it for special projects. His personal Dogleg Kodiak is the best effort of those special projects that comes to mind right now.
Although generally uncommon, unusual and/or exceptional grain fine wood can be found in many years of Bear bows, dating back to as early as the Bear/Grumley era when yew and osage were commonly used woods in Bear bows. But a lot fewer of those truly remarkable Grumley bows around than of the late 50s and 60s era Bear bows with exotic wood risers.
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Originally posted by TRAP:
...
Even though I shoot my Deluxe, I don't shoot my Type 1 or Type 2 63 Mags. Not sure why. Maybe I don't want to screw up an opportunity to make a nice lamp some day.
Trap -
That is really a nice one piece Bubinga riser on the Type 2 in your photograph of the three types of Dogleg Magnums.
If you want to make a nice Dogleg lamp, you should have at least one LH and one RH bow so the sight windows can face each other...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/BOWART.jpg)
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Lol Wade, I'll take that into consideration. I bought a LH bow by mistake one time. I hope that is my last time.
So, what are we going to talk about this week?
Anybody want to start the week off with another vintage archery tackle discussion. How about broadhead designs that, may have appealed to the archers of the day, but probably weren't the best designs for actually taking game.
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Originally posted by TRAP:
....
How about broadhead designs that, may have appealed to the archers of the day, but probably weren't the best designs for actually taking game.
Trap -
How about the Roper's Indian Arrowhead, introduced in "Archery" Magazine Sep 1953, in an advertisement on page 38...
How effective does everyone think the Roper's would be?
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Ropers%20Sm.png) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Ropers%20Sm.png.html)
Shown above is the small upward flute model.
The much larger downward flute model is a common broadhead in the collector's world and frequently appears for sale at auction.
Apparently the Large Roper's did appeal to many neophyte bowmen of the era as over the years I have found dozens of them in the possession of archers active in the mid 1950s.
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Perfect example Wade, Thanks for posting.
My guess is the Ropers would be a pretty tough head to get "hunting" sharp. I'm sure a heavy enough bow would punch it through a deer simply because of its 2-blade design.
Gimmicky Broadheads make me think of fishing lures painted and shaped like beer cans. Appealing to the archer of the day was good for sales even if the design was poor.
Cmon Wakeman, this topic is right up your alley.
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Isn't the Roper's head cast Aluminum? I can't imagine shooting one at anything other than a rabbit. Even that seems a stretch.
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Lucas K -
Yes the Roper's are cast aluminum heads.
Trap -
You are correct, it is not possible to get a wavy serrated edge of an aluminum head as sharp as a good quality well designed convex edge steel broadhead.
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The concept behind, the Mohawk Swivel Action Broadhead, shown "actual size" in this July, 1958 issue of The National Bowhunter advertisement, was perhaps decades ahead of its time.
Too flimsy to be considered a functional broadhead by today's standards. Not the earliest mechanical head but the earliest in my small broadhead collection. The Mohawk is a fairly common head probably due in part to the "cool" factor.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/45E571B9-735B-49E6-A8F4-268508342363.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/45E571B9-735B-49E6-A8F4-268508342363.jpg.html)
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Wow, cool thread guys. Haven't ventured here in a while, glad I checked it out!
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The original Mohawk was first offered for sale in 1957.
Many different colors were used over time to mold the ferrules.
(http://i.imgur.com/1PCXst4.jpg)
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Great info Rick, keep them coming.
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Great info Rick, keep them coming.
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1984 Tiger Paw cast steel broadhead.
(http://i.imgur.com/55qmOAa.jpg)
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1984 Tiger Paw small game, the result of failed broadhead. Not mine, maybe some day I will get one.
(http://i.imgur.com/4mzg08z.jpg)
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So, the small game head was produced after the full size Broadhead proved to be what? Too weak?
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Originally posted by TRAP:
So, the small game head was produced after the full size Broadhead proved to be what? Too weak?
I could not find any written facts, but I was told, hearsay, that the manufacturing process was not always perfect, so the main blades were cut down to make the small game head. Wade....help!
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Ply-Flex aluminum and beryllium copper broadheads made in the 1950s.
(http://i.imgur.com/7sEv7F9.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/K5ev8KZ.jpg)
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Originally posted by bowhunterfrompast:
Originally posted by TRAP:
So, the small game head was produced after the full size Broadhead proved to be what? Too weak?
I could not find any written facts, but I was told, hearsay, that the manufacturing process was not always perfect, so the main blades were cut down to make the small game head. Wade....help! [/b]
Trap & Rick -
Originally, the small game Tigerpaw was actually the scrapped rejects from producing the broadhead.
When a broadhead was not true, the blade was cut off at the angle or corner where the blade and sloped shoulder met.
Actually the 1984 Tigerpaw was a remake of the SR-100 Magnum that was introduced in 1960... I spoke with the Tigerpaw manufacturer when he was still experimenting before he settled on a production design. He said that he never heard of the 1960 SR-100 Magnum and was surprised that in 1960 someone had invented the design that he thought he invented in 1984.
When I tried to explain the 1960 design was a financial failure, he was still convinced that his cast version was much stronger and would be a financial success.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/SR-100%20Mag.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/SR-100%20Mag.jpg.html)
I have talked with dozens of makers of broadheads over the past 50 years or so. Guess with only one single exception, I have never met a designer of a broadhead who thought that he had not created the best broadhead design ever.
The Tigerpaw was a failure for many reasons, not the least of which is that the head is simply too large for the common bow weights and arrow weights.
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Another one of my favorite collectible but poor designs from the 1950s that took more bowhunters than big game, is the Blood Trail by WR Books...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Blood%20Trail..jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Blood%20Trail..jpg.html)
The tip formed a rectangle "cookie cutter" opening that was intended to cut and remove a piece of rectangular flesh from the wound, creating a wound channel that was impossible to heal over...
This is another prime example of an individual knowing far more about engineering and manufacturing than bowhunting and killing big game with a bow and arrow.
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Some of the manufacturers who made these less than great functioning broadheads, had some pretty fair initial sales because of their advertising and packaging...
e.g. this now very uncommon and highly collectible SR-100 Magnum box which contained three broadheads....
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/SR-100%20Magnum%20Box.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/SR-100%20Magnum%20Box.jpg.html)
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Very cool. I love the quote, "took more hunters than game".
Kinda sums it up.
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Trap: Sorry for late response to the 2/8/17 or so discussions. No offense taken. BTW: Jolene and Frida both do have your feather rests which are doing fine. Any other statements from me reflect only my confusion on the matter.
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Let me start by saying, "no apples were harmed during this photo session. They were all perfectly edible after the shoot"
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/D1EC7506-B2F2-4ACA-9FBF-98AA88D027A1.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/DUCK_TRAP/media/D1EC7506-B2F2-4ACA-9FBF-98AA88D027A1.jpg.html)
Browning Serpentine, Early 1970s
Wonder how many hunters were "taken" with this broadhead? Trying to sharpen it would make me dizzy.
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Trap -
Yes, the Browning Serpentine... it is yet another example of a later generation of an earlier idea...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Ex-Cal%2050.jpg) (http://s386.photobucket.com/user/WadePhillips/media/Ex-Cal%2050.jpg.html)
The 1957 Cal Ex-Calibre .50 was designed to cut two 50 calibre holes into the wound channel making it impossible for the wound to heal.
The following year, 1958, the Ex-Calibre .45 was introduced and became a better seller than the Ex-Calibre .50.
However, none of the 1950s to 1970s spiral blade heads are effective at penetration, which I have personally confirmed from extensive testing on numerous big game carcasses.
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I have a dozen Browning MicroFlite's in the original box, half of them with Browning Serpentine heads on them. I cant decide whether to try one on turkey, where a pass through isn't your best result unless it lops the head off, or just take them off and send them to the recycling center.
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I would opt to recycle them over shooting them at a wild turkey.
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1958 Ex-Calibre .45
(http://i.imgur.com/DNCdf9k.jpg)