Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Dark Continent => Topic started by: NYRON on June 06, 2006, 08:33:00 AM
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Hi All:
I just received a message from my outfitter telling me that by law I am not permitted to use a longbow or recurve is South Africa. We booked this trip more than a year ago and at that time discussed with the outfitter that we would be shooting longbows and recurves. Now he is telling us that traditional bows are not legal. Is there any truth to this?
Have the laws changed as a result of the recent legislatition regarding bowhunting of dangerous game?
The PH is also suggesting that we consider hunting only with firearms becasue August in Limpopo province isn't a good time to bowhunt. Then why didn't he tell us that when we booked the hunt...!
To say I'm upset is an understatement!
Ron
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I read something about this several months ago, but I didnt know it was made into law yet! Man! that really sinks , good luck...Mark#78 :saywhat:
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Sorry but that sounds very very fishy. I do believe that on the "books", bowhunting plains game is not deemed "legal" however it is a law that has been in place for a very long time, and hasn't been changed, but I have never heard of it being enforced. There is new talk of banning "Canned Hunts" that I know of.
As far as August being a bad time to bowhunt Limpopo? I think your outfitter is just more interested in getting you to pick up a rifle.
These are very bad indicators of how your hunt may go, I would suggest that you don't throw good money after bad, and get out now.
Sorry
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Ron,
I have to agree with Wayne. It sounds like your outfitter is trying to pull a fast one on you. Most of the guys on this site who have hunted Africa have hunted SA, with sticks. I have only hunted Namibia, but I can assure you that August in this region of Africa is prime time. It is to the outfitters advantage to have you take up a rifle and begin gunning down a lot of game as you pay for each animal taken. It also makes their work a whole lot easier. I would do whatever you can to get out of this deal now and scramble to rebook with a different outfitter. There are many of us on this site that can help you with suggestions as to who. This should be the hunt of a lifetime. You shouldn't settle for anything less. Brady
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Hello All.
I think there is a scramble by outfitters to comply with laws now that the laws may change. I have done some research on this subject and while I don’t know nearly enough yet here is what I do know.
Bow hunting is legal if you have a permit. The bow referred to is a compound bow, but I know of a few people who use Recurve- and long bows. I even know of one guy who hunts with a big knife. The laws as I have found them are thus:
1. Subject to the provisions of this Ordinance, no person shall hunt game with-
a. a weapon which, after it has been discharged automatically reloads and fires when the trigger thereof is pulled or held in a discharged position;
b. a weapon discharging a rimfiring cartridge of ,22 of an inch or smaller calibre;
c. a shotgun;
d. an air-gun,
unless he is the holder of a permit which authorizes him to do so: Provided that-
v. any person may hunt a hare or a bird with a shotgun;
vi. the owner of land or a relative of his may with his permission hunt game, excluding specially protected game, with any firearm on the land of the owner.
2. Any person who contravenes or fails to comply with subsection (1) shall be guilty of an offence.
The process for obtaining a license for a client from over seas is the responsibility of the outfitter as far as I can determine. My advice is that it would be best to change to an outfitter that does take bow hunting clients if possible. Do not tell this person that it is a traditional bow, only a bow.
August is the end of hunting season. Game will be more difficult to stalk and will be wary of water holes. There will also be added pressure on the hunter to fill up the quota on the farm. Hunting has been becoming more and more expensive over the last few years (I can’t afford to hunt this year). With the lack of local clients, the operators may try to use foreign clients to take animals that are now not being taken by local clients. This is all worst case news. I don’t want to scare anyone, but there are many operators and the one or two that are bad are really bad. The hunting industry is not doing very well at the moment. I know of two farmers who had to sell their land because it just wasn’t worth the trouble any more.
I will supply information as I find and confirm it.
Stefan
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I think you have an outfitter problem. Bowhunting has always required a special permit which the PH routinely obtains... nothing has changed. I have hunted RSA numerous times with longbows and recurves. Assuming you are not hunting a cramped, limited area where the game has been rendered spooky by over-hunting, August is a great time to hunt. As the popularity of bowhunting increased in southern Africa, many inexperienced operators jumped on board and some of them just don't have any real bow experience, especially on the traditiional side. Because they don't know how deadly our tackle can be, they feel insecure with it. During my trips in the early days, I did an awful lot of educating on the subject, but I have never had an experienced PH tell me anything like what you have heard. Hate to say it, but this makes a good argument for booking through an experienced agent who has done the homework... that's why I keep making these exploratory trips. Your hunt sounds like a losing proposition to me. BTW, I leave in two weeks for a month in RSA and you know what I will be carrying. Don
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I am hunting Limpompo province late July on a bowhunting only comcession. I agree with earlier posts, sounds like an outfitter problem.
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Guys,
Thanks for all of the great advice. I'm in negotiations with the outfitter now. I don't want to reveal anymore information until this is resolved. I'll let you know how everything turns out. Again, thanks for the information you have provided...it's been very helpful!
Ron
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PURE, UNADULTERATED HAWG WASH! THE LANDOWNER IS FREE TO DETERMINE WHAT HE WILL OR WON'T ALLOW. SOMEONE IS SMOKING SOME STRANGE STUFF. I'D SAY YOU HAVE A SERIOUS OUTFITTER PROBLEM. GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND GO WITH SOMEONE MORE RELIABLE WHO HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOWHUNTING!
TOO SHORT
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Too Short,
Thanks for the firm reply. I couldn't agree more, but unfortunately canceling my hunt isn't that simple. This hunt was purchased at an SCI auction and paid in full.
I went to SCI for help and they sided with the outfitter, saying that primitive weapons, including longbows and recurves are illegal in SA.
I am at my wits end here. I have scoured the internet for specific regulations pertaining to hunting implements and haven't found much.
Last night I sent the outfitter dozens of refernces to traditional bowhunting in SA, but haven't heard back from him yet.
Any other suggestions? I appreciate any and all help that you can provide.
Best,
Ron
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Well, things have finally come to a head with the outfitter. After sending him dozens of references to traditional bowhunting in SA, he finally responded with a terse e-mail that included a copy of the "Special Conditions" section taken from some larger document, but he didn't indicate what document that was.
Clause number 12 of the Special Conditions states:
"Only a compound crossbow with minimum draw-mass of 45 kg,or a compound long bow with minimum draw-mass of 22.7 kg may be used."
Given this unambiguous statement of equipment restrictions, I don't understand how other outfitters are able to offer traditional bowhunts. They must either ignore the clause or have found some loop hole.
In any case, it seems that negotiations with the the outfitter are over. It looks like I'll be hunting with a compound or not at all. Hopefully I can borrow one from a friend, as I haven't owned or shot one in close to 15 years. If it weren't for family and friends also booked on this hunt, I'd bail out so fast it would make your head spin.
Ron
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Nyron, Lets hope some of our African friends can tell you what document this is being quoted from. My guess is that it is from the South African game regulations which pertains to Government Concessions and Tribal hunting grounds not private ranch property. Try emailing someone at SCI's Africa Office at [email protected] and ask them whom you could contact to clarify the facts for you. You could also ask them for email info for African Proffessional Hunters Association someone there should beable to help you.
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David,
I've already inquired with SCI's Africa office. They were of no help at all, stating that primitive weapons, including longbows and recruves were prohibited in SA.
Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Ron
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Nyron,
Are you an SCI member? If so, dig out a magazine and look under measurers - look under south African measurers for a guy called Jaques Horack (SP) but close. He was on the South African Advisory Board for some time that regulated the use of bows. He may still be involved, if not he can tell you whats up as he knows the bow regulations inside out. He is a judge, so he knows the law. I met him and took some broadheads over for him on one of my visits back in 97. Im at work and have no magazines around office. If you are not a member let me know and I can look it up tonight and get info for you.
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David,
Many thanks for your help. I am not an SCI member, so I don't have access to the magazine. I would very much appreciate contact information for Jaques.
Thanks,
Ron
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Nyron,
Sorry, I got busy yesterday and had to run. I did not check posts. I will get info tonight and post it Thursday am for you.
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All:
Many thanks for the information and offers of support.
With only 3 weeks to spare the situation is finally resolved. I'll be carrying my longbow and smiling all the way to the blind. I'll post some pics when I get back.
Thanks,
Ron
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Ron, would you mind telling us about your resolution? Just curious...
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Hi All:
Several of you have asked if I could give an update on what happened with my hunt and whether I was able to use a longbow.
As it turns out, my difficulties were unrelated to South African hunting laws as originally described to me by my outfitter. The outfitter was simply not keen on my using traditional equipment because he had a bad experience with a previous client. Instead of telling me this up front, he used the excuse that traditional bows are illegal in SA. When I called him on it, he had to relent and permit me to use a longbow. In the end everything worked out fine and I took some beautiful animals, including two dandy Kudu bulls, a bull Gemsbok, and a Klipspringer. I made what I thought was a good hit on an Impala, but sadly we never recovered the animal.
Below are some pics...I hope. This is the first time I've tried posting pictures so we'll see if this works.
Ron
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/rwr8/Kudu1_8X5.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/rwr8/Kudu_Abrie_8X6.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/rwr8/Gemsbok_8X5.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/rwr8/Klippy_8X5.jpg)
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That is what I call a successful hunt. Congats on a job well done. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:
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Congratulation Ron ,, The Longbow community is very proud of you, way to stick to your "guns".
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Hi Nyron,
two friends of mine hunted this June in SA with Compound because with their longbows did not allowed.
Armando
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Hogwash!!!!
you can hunt with longbow and recurve and anyone who says otherwise is GROSSLY misinformed!
Too Short
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You can use a longbow, and from the looks of those pics I would have to say you can be pretty succesfull at it, good job on all fronts Nyron. Justin
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when in Africa.. expect the rules to change with each sneeze. I was recently at the border of Kenya/Tanzania where we went through on a bus. The visa fee was 50 dollars. But this one young lad (travelling the world for the last 6 months( hand only Kenyan Shillings...) so his fee was the equivelent of 75 dollars. When he told the visa guy this.... the guy just shrugged his shoulders. Thats Africa for ya.. the rules go with the weather and moods!!
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Hi Guys,
Just to provide some clarity on this topic, since it seems most of you still don't have the real picture here. I live in South Africa and hunt using both longbow and compound. I'm also a member of the ECGMA (an accredited hunting organization).
We went through a bad patch here when the latest hunting legislation came out. This legislation made bowhunting (of ANY sort) illegal in South Africa. Many PH's, game farm owners, magazines, etc got their panties into a HUGE knot over this. However, this is not nearly as bad as it sounds because bowhunting has ALWAYS been illegal in South Africa. The little bit that everone forgets is the clause in the hunting laws that says something more or less along the lines of "...unless permitted by the relevant provincial laws".
At National level bowhunting of any sort IS illegal here. However all 9 the provinces have local laws allowing bowhunting. As far as I know NONE of the provinces outlaws longbows or even provides specific guidelines as to minimum poundages that is allowable (except for the thick skinned animals like buffalo, rhino, elephant). MANY landowners are not that keen on bowhunting OR have their own rules as to minimum poundage, type of bow, whatever. There has been a lot of bad publicity for bowhunting over the last few months in South Africa. Most of this was caused by a lack of knowledge or by idiots taking shots they shouldn't have. So you MIGHT run into more landowners or hunting outfitters who will give you crap over bowhunting. Should you ever run into a situation like this again, my advice would be to contact CHASA (CONFEDERATION OF HUNTERS ASSOCIATIONS OF SOUTH AFRICA, http://www.chasa.co.za/). If they can't answer your question no one will be able to.
Hope this helps :)
Johan
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Very good advice.
If I can only remember where I've heard this name before. Ek kan net nie onthou nie. Iewers in die Magnum?
Stefan
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I think a statement that Johan made is spot on... "by idiots taking shots they shouldn't have". I'm sure there is some pressure to shoot since for many this is a once in a lifetime trip.
I just heard from my PH that there are two landholders the PH leases from that will not allow stickbow shooters anymore because of too many wounded, and unrecovered, animals.
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Oops, Correction to my own post.
I looked through the current CHASA bowhunting proficiency material last night and found that some provinces DO have minimum requirements for hunting certain animals. The current ones leave details such as draw weight, type of bow, etc up to the hunter and simply state the minimum kinetic energy in feet-pounds that should be used. As far as I could see its only Natal and the old Freestate that has these requirements.
(nee, het nog nooit in die magnum geskryf nie, jy sal dalk binnekort so paar fotos van my bokke in Africa's bowhunter sien :)
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One problem that I have heard other hunters complain about is that these requirments were set with modern compound bows in mind. To meet some of these requirments with a traditional bow would mean having a 90# draw weight. Dont know the details, this is a official rumour as far as I know. (Ek kan daardie een nie meer kry nie. SA Jagter raak ook skaars. Ek kyk seker net op die verkeerde plekke.)
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I did a lot of research on this when I was negotiating with my outfitter. During that time I discovered the website below which categorizes game species by size and gives recommended arrow weights and kinetic energy minimums for each category. The minimums didn't seem that out of line to me and are easily acheived with traditional bows of moderate weight shooting heavy arrows.
The longbow I took to Africa (56 # @ 27") shoots a 577 grain arrow at 172 fps, wich is roughly 40 ft/lbs of kinetic energy, making it satisfactory for most everything up to Kudu-sized game.
With this set up and Wensel Woodsman heads I had no problems with penetration on Gemsbok or Kudu.
http://residents.bowhunting.net/africa/default.htm
Ron