Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Dark Continent => Topic started by: Dr. Ed Ashby on September 20, 2008, 04:43:00 PM
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I know that most Americans pay little attention to international political developments, but the breaking news from South Africa this over the last two days puts up red flags everywhere. Yesterday there were reports that there was pressure being exerted on Thambo Mbeki to step down as president of South Africa. Today it is reported that he has been forced by the ANC to step down. Why is that of importance to hunters? The almost certain successor is Jacob Zuma. Zuma has made it clear that he favors forced redistribution of wealth - in the vein of Robert Mugabe. It is very likely that there will be forced takeovers of farms held by white South Africans in the not too distant future. These may well be as violent as those in Zimbabwe were. One can also expect an increase in quasi state-sponsored violence against all those in the population who are not on the side of the ANC. It is also likely that and land takeovers in South Africa will instigate a similar action in Namibia, where there has long been a strongly expressed desire to follow Mugabe’s land redistribution policies.
If making a hunt in South Africa or Namibia is one of those things on your personal ‘bucket list’ I strongly suggest that you not delay doing it for very long. There is no predicting exactly what the time frame is likely to be, but I wouldn’t wager against it happing at a rate even faster than that of Zimbabwe. I lived and guided in Zimbabwe throughout the initial four years of the lad grab there, and can assure you that you do not want to be present during such an event; not even as a visiting hunter.
And here’s a bit more food for thought. My older brother is a rifle hunter, not a bow hunter, but in 1975 he borrowed money from the bank and used that money to make a 28 day safari. At the time I thought he was totally nuts. On that 28 day safari he took all of the big five - elephant, rhino, buffalo, lion and leopard; along with 23 other species of big game. To the best of my knowledge (and I’ve tried to check this out as carefully as I can) he is the very last hunter ever to take all of the big five on a single safari. The total cost of his trip, including airfare, the hunt, trophy fees, shipment of the trophies and the taxidermy was $28,000.00. Today, that won’t even pay one-half the daily rate on most hunts for just a trophy class elephant!
Bottom line. If you think you ever want to make that Africa trip I would seriously think about doing it very, very soon.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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Some of us actually can, and do, read. ;)
Anyhow, thx. for the heads-up. With SA being more industrialized than most other African countries, it's a bit hard to imagine large scale revolutionary policies being implemented, but I suppose it's possible.
I'd guess most Americans (and Europeans) view Africa (in toto) as a continent in constant political flux and plan accordingly.
I've spoken with several South Africans when traveling in Europe and without exception they long for the "good old days". Of course, the good old days were better for some than others.
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i HOPE THIS IS NOT TRUE. I HAVE A HUNT BOOKED IN 2010.
DANNY
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Danny,
See the below article from the AP. Some of what Dr. Ashby wrote is factual and some is more than likely spectualation on his part and although he knows much more about the political environment than I do we can only hope he turns out to be wrong. I've got a hunt booked in 2009...
ANC forces South African President Mbeki to resign
Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
The Associated Press
By DONNA BRYSON Associated Press Writer
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (AP) — President Thabo Mbeki bowed to heavy pressure from his own party to resign Saturday, tossed to the sidelines of the economic powerhouse he built up as punishment for allegedly abusing his power in trying to quash a popular rival.
The swiftness of the ouster likely will stoke fears about the political and financial direction of South Africa, particularly if key Cabinet ministers decide to quit in solidarity with Mbeki.
But the change also allows the governing African National Congress to declare its internal leadership battle over and turn its attention to next year's elections, when key concerns will be about corruption and demands from the poor for jobs and houses.
Even as it demanded he step down, the ANC praised Mbeki for overseeing unprecedented growth. But little of the wealth created since he succeeded Nelson Mandela in 1999 has trickled down to the black majority that had hoped for more with the end of apartheid.
The result is that poor blacks have flocked to the ANC's populist leader, Jacob Zuma, a one-time Mbeki protege who became a potent foe. He is considered front-runner for next year's presidential election, but parliament will pick an interim leader to take over from Mbeki.
While Zuma and Mbeki espouse similar views of South Africa's future, they differ sharply in style. Aloof and donnish, Mbeki won praise from business but never attained the public support enjoyed by the personable, energetic Zuma, particularly among leftists, union members and young people.
Many poor people lionize Zuma as a leader who understands the pain of the millions of South Africans who remain on the margins of society.
The Young Communist League said Mbeki's departure gives the government "an opportunity to intensify the provision of quality services to our people, especially the working class and the poor."
Mbeki came under pressure from his party to quit following a judge's ruling last week that he may have had a role in Zuma being charged with corruption. Mbeki, who was due to leave office next year after two terms as president, denied that but gave in to the demands Saturday.
The ANC's secretary-general, Gwede Mantashe, said Mbeki would remain president until an interim one was appointed, but Mbeki was already stepping back. He sent the foreign minister to head the delegation Mbeki had planned to take to the U.N. General Assembly.
Mantashe said parliament, which is controlled by the ANC, would meet soon to formalize the process for replacing Mbeki. Parliament elects the president in South Africa.
A major concern was threats by key Cabinet ministers to quit over Mbeki's removal. Attention was especially focused on Finance Minister Trevor Manuel, who has shared the credit with Mbeki for South Africa's sustained economic growth and investor-friendly policies over the past decade.
Mantashe said Zuma was meeting with Cabinet ministers hoping to persuade them to stay on, saying the top priority was "ensuring the smooth running of the country."
Speaking to reporters, Mantashe said that after meeting all of Friday and into the early hours Saturday, a high-level ANC committee "decided to recall the president" before his term in office expires in April.
Hours later, the president's office issued a terse statement:
"Following the decision of the National Executive Committee of the African National Congress to recall President Thabo Mbeki, the President has obliged and will step down after all constitutional requirements have been met."
Mbeki's spokesman said there would be no further comment Saturday.
South Africans vote for parties, not individuals. That puts a premium on party loyalty and discipline among legislators and allows political leaders to quickly make radical changes.
Although Mbeki's removal came quicker than many people expected, South Africans had been anticipating a shift from Mbeki to Zuma at least since last December, when Zuma defeated the president in a party election for the ANC's leadership.
Helen Zille, leader of South Africa's main opposition party, told state television that the ANC has made its internal problems a crisis for the country. "It's about revenge, it's about settling political scores," she said.
Mantashe insisted the move to remove Mbeki was meant to restore unity and stability to party and country, not to punish him.
But many saw it as Mbeki's defeat, and it opened the way for opponents to question the ANC over how a leader who tried to oust an allegedly corrupt aide was removed while the accused stands on the brink of becoming president.
Mbeki fired Zuma as his national deputy president in 2005, after Zuma's financial adviser was convicted of trying to elicit a bribe to deflect investigations into a multibillion-dollar international arms deal.
Initial charges were withdrawn against Zuma, but the chief prosecutor said last December that he had enough evidence to bring new ones. That comment came within days of Zuma defeating Mbeki in voting for ANC president.
In his ruling Sept. 12, Judge Christopher Nicholson said it appeared Mbeki and his justice minister colluded with prosecutors against Zuma as part of the "titanic power struggle" within the ANC. Mbeki indignantly denied the accusation.
South Africa emerged from years of institutionalized racism in 1994 and entered an era of reconciliation embodied by anti-apartheid icon Nelson Mandela. Mbeki took over in 1999 and ushered in sustained economic growth averaging nearly 5 percent a year.
Many poor blacks disdained those achievements, complaining the benefits weren't reaching the masses. Others criticized Mbeki for failing to fight the country's crippling crime, and health activists were dismayed that he played down South Africa's devastating AIDS crisis.
Mbeki is regarded by many Africans as a statesmen for promoting what he calls Africa's renaissance and mediating conflicts ranging from Sudan to Ivory Coast to Congo.
For many years, his quiet diplomacy in troubled Zimbabwe was criticized as ineffective and biased toward Robert Mugabe, the autocratic president. But last week, he persuaded Mugabe to share power with the opposition. It was a retreat after nearly three decades of unchallenged power, although talks on the formation of a coalition Cabinet have since deadlocked.
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don't get me wrong South Africa is my home and will always be!
our family and many others are as entitled to live on its land as any born there irrelevant of skin color.
we left South Africa 8 years ago when my father saw things where going to go bad.
i have however been back every year for several months mainly guiding for a safari operation. Interesting to go back each year and see the new changes.
violence is as bad if not worse in South Africa as it is Zim. We had an elderly couple killed in there home not far from us( the details would not be fit for many to read). An elderly farmer killed in town for the money in his wallet (which probably wouldn't buy you a muffin and coffee at Starbucks) the list is endless...makes me sick
The whole area i grew up in has been claimed and force bought by the government. and you'd be wrong in thinking they would just hand the land ownership over to the tribes...they've got them now..."you want the land...you vote for us!"
the farm next door to us has been clear felled for firewood! you can name the blades of grass on that place its been so heavily overgrazed.
i visited a nearby township where i was good friends with many of the people, something has changed because i feared for my life when i went back, i was not welcome and that was made clear!
i speak in length to everyone about the political situation every time i go back (black and white)and read up on it when i am not there. Don't get me wrong, there are people there that will not leave no matted how hard it is. people still making a lot of money out there and the lifestyle is still very good if your in the right place with the right money.
but people have got this ostrich syndrome sticking there heads in the ground and pretending whats going on around them is not happening.
the mentality of the people that i have spoken with is something else and holds NO LONG TERM FUTURE for southern africa!
"Why must i go to college for 4 years to get a degree, just give me one!"
the concept of earning something in non existent, ill just take it!
if something is bigger and better than me then ill just cut it down so that we'r the same.
this is as i see things first hand over there im not trying to upset anyone im not sucking this out of my thumb form across the sea after reading a few newspaper articles.
i dont see hunting falling to peaces anytime soon there are some big outfits in SA that make a LOT of money, the industry brings in a lot of money. they wont let there business fall though easily.
hang on to your hunts out there and take it as it comes.
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The concept of expecting things to be given and not earned holds true in alot of countries. SA is such a beautiful country - I hope they come out well there. For safety sake and I have been caught up in the middle of bad times in other areas - I would watch the climate there closely and then decide on making a trip - especially if my family was tagging along.
J
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Mr Magoo...I'm having difficulty following your train of thought.
What does industrialization have to do with whether a political "coup" and subsequent redistribution of land or money will occur or not?
Despotism, socialism, and lots of other forms of "I'm in charge and the rest of you listen to me cause I know what's better for you than you do" -political power grabs happen in any kind of country- 3rd world or fully developed.
All one need do to know that's true is recall 1930's Germany. Plenty of industrialization there. A redistribution of property and wealth occurred- the Jews lost everything and it was given to "pure" Germans.
I'm not equating any class of Africans to Jews or Nazis with this, merely stating a fact- there's plenty of precedent to say that a redistribution of land and wealth is probable in this circumstance-and Mugabe showed Zuma the way.
I've heard Americans, Germans, English, Canadians, French, Swiss, Italians, and Danes wish for the good old days- I believe thats more a function of age than political situation- in other words, its universal. The good old days are, well, the good old days.
If Mugabe or Zuma really WERE for the people, that might be one thing- but Mugabe has already proven all he wanted was power, and history shows that's all these men ever turn out to want.
Ed was giving us an educated "heads up" and my bet is he is spot on.
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
Mugabe showed Zuma the way.
your right there Ray! and no doubt he was taking notes.
what also worry's me is that this Land Grab thing is becoming accepted by some and expected by others
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No one (my trip planned in 2010) will be going to SA if it goes crazy there... Forcing people off their land. 3 or 4 generations that cleared and worked the ground making it valuable. Maybe there needs to be a civil war. I'm afraid there will be.
JDS III
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Originally posted by tradtusker:
Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
Mugabe showed Zuma the way.
your right there Ray! and no doubt he was taking notes.
what also worry's me is that this Land Grab thing is becoming accepted by some and expected by others [/b]
Still got family out there! I was criticized for "running away" I made the right decision IMO!
Africa is in my veins and heart, I pray for things to be ok...
They say the reason the soil is red in Africa, is from all the blood spilt on it. Why should it change when it's been like that since the beginning of time? Take it as it comes with your hunts, things can change quickly! Troubled times ahead!!
:pray:
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If all Americans and Europeans stopped booking hunts and vacations to SA today, the powers that be and or will be may start to think. Common sense is needed abroad even more so than we need it at home today! Maybe only dreaming here- but might make a difference for the future.
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Here's a few of the reasons I fear the worst; information from current sources: (bold emphasis in the text are my addition)
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Mbeki sacked to protect Zuma: South African opposition
Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:01am AEST
Updated Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:26pm AEST
Mr Mbeki has agreed to resign (AFP: Desmond Kwande )
Opposition groups in South Africa have accused the governing African National Congress (ANC) of throwing the country into crisis by forcing the resignation of President Thabo Mbeki. Mr Mbeki has agreed to resign after ANC leaders asked him to step down over allegations that he interfered in a corruption case against his rival, the party leader Jacob Zuma.
The president of the main opposition party, the Democratic Alliance, Helen Zille, says Mr Mbeki's resignation has been orchestrated to protect Mr Zuma from corruption allegations."The ANC has made its own internal problems a crisis for the country," she said. This is exactly the political solution that Jacob Zuma has always wanted. It's about revenge, it's about seeking political scores. "And it is quite predictable that Jacob Zuma and his allies are going to use their new position to ensure that he does not have to face the 783 allegations of corruption against him in court."
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Exactly where does Jacob Zuma stand of “land-reform”, and what can be expected when he ascends to the Presidency of South Africa? Here’s information from his 7 September 2008 speech that makes it fairly clear. - Ed
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JOHANNESBURG, SOUTH AFRICA Sep 07 2008 18:56
South Africa's slow-moving land-reform programme, aimed at returning land seized by the white minority after 1913 to black people, has so far failed to eradicate poverty, African National Congress president Jacob Zuma said on Sunday.
"Our land reform has so far not been linked to rural development," Zuma said in a speech reported on Sunday on public broadcaster SAFM. "Our view is that changes in land ownership have not transformed social relations and have not succeeded in combating rural poverty and promoting rural development," he told graduating students of the University of Zululand in eastern KwaZulu-Natal. "We need to empower the poor through land reform," said Zuma, the party's presidential hopeful in the 2009 poll.
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Perhaps the most telling of all is the last sentence of this quote from Zuma’s 24 June 2008 speech at the Age of Turbulence International Investment Conference - Ed
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“We will continue to promote broad-based black economic empowerment (BBBEE) aimed at broadening and de-racialising the ownership and control of productive assets by black people, women and youth. We will promote new black enterprises, which are engaged in the production of goods and services.
We will also prioritise skills development and education to support the BBBEE and affirmative action policies we are undertaking. We have realised that most established businesspeople see value in our BBBEE policy, as it is an investment into the future. No economic growth can be sustainable if the majority of the population is excluded from the economic mainstream.
The magic word in BBBEE should be "broad based". We need to broaden the empowerment, and encourage new entrants into the economic arena. Another area of interest for most potential investors is our policy on property ownership, especially ownership by foreigners. Our country has in the past few years attracted many foreign property owners. Our policy as adopted at our 52nd national conference in Polokwane, took this into cognisance. We resolved that the state must, with immediate effect, regulate but not prohibit ownership of land by non-South Africans.
This regulation should take into account the country's commitment to land reform, restitution, redistribution and access to land. The ANC has also resolved that we should discard the market-driven land reform and immediately review the principle of willing-seller, willing-buyer so as to accelerate equitable distribution of land.”
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What does all this sound like to me? Red Flags Everywhere! It’s exactly the type rhetoric I heard as Mugabe began his initial "whipping up" of his most militant supporters; alluding to a discarding of the "willing seller-willing buyer" provisions of the Lancaster Accords, which he had agreed to in the negotiated ending of the Rhodesian War, and heralding his implementation of forced land redistribution.
Am I alone in being concerned? Perhaps not; the South Africa Rand dropped 14% yesterday, immediately after the news release that Mbeki's was stepping down.
My gut feeling is that those who want to hunt South Africa should not put their trip off too long!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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I agree with what you see here Ed.
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Ray - The world has changed significantly from the 1930's (the current financial crisis notwithstanding). I also don't find significant similarities with Nazi Germany (even though Africans continue to kill each other in great big bloody batches every day). Nor am I speaking of a 'coup' (which this isn't in the classical sense).
I'm speaking of the fact that SA is Africa's largest economy (though a two tiered economy), with the primary tier firmly ensconced in the multinational business world. Large multinationals in industries like banking and mining wield great influence on politics (either via formal or backdoor channels) and the 'new' leadership won't want a total breakdown of their comfortable lifestyle. I doubt any of them wants to trade their luxury suite for a hut.
Nor am I speaking of revolutionary political ideology. I'm speaking in terms of realpolitik (in its correct Bismark usage, not its Machiavellian connotations).
Also the 'good old days' longing I referred to had nothing to do with age. Young, old, it didn't matter. I was simply trying to state something politely and not too obviously. The people I refer to were all white and have seen a country where they were safe, prosperous and in charge turned upside-down.
This weekend's Financial Times had an article about the political ouster. Also, if you've been following general events, it seems one of SA's most pressing real problems is its rapidly aging power grid.
Anyhow, several choices for hunting in Africa exist. I'd say they all require you to keep your eyes open.
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There will always be hunting possibilities to hunt Africa there is still a lot of hunting in zim...not much game left there..but you can still hunt some big tracks.
the power (escom) like Dave said is a big issue there's a lot of load shedding going on.
the "new" leadership will not want a total breakdown your right, but "THEY WILL GET RICHER AND THE POOR WILL GET POORER!" black or white you'v got a problem and it will play out like many other southern African country's have. irrelevant of economy etc...
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I'll be there next Monday, will see how people are taking it?
I think it might be ok, lets hope.
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Mr Magoo,
Wow. You're sure it's changed significantly since the 1930's? Remember, you're not the only one capable of reading...that almost appears condescending of you! I don't know how old you are, but my 54 years of experience tells me that no matter how far we've "progressed" from some point in time, the more things stay the same.
Are you sure its not a coup? Never heard of a "bloodless coup"? I don't think much about Machiavelli..I'm more of a "if it looks like a duck and smells like a duck-ian" kind of guy.
I made mention of Nazi Germany in the 30's and the current situation in SA only as an example that industrialization or not, those in power can do pretty well what they want with stuff that belongs to those who are outside their favor.
I don't believe Ed was speaking to us about the nationalization of international corporations and their holdings in geopolitical terms- this is a hunting site- that would have little to no bearing on whether we could safely hunt in SA.
What he was saying is that land (read that ranches) were taken away from non blacks and the land re-allocated to the populace in Zimbabwe, and the same thing is likely to happen in SA. That has a direct impact on whether you can safely hunt SA or not, I think.
Good realpolitik-in' to you.
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White landowners have seen this coming for some time in RSA. While at Melorani, we learned that there is a native land claim against their property, as well as against Howard Knott's [sp] place (Greater Kuduland). Although the Melorani claim at least is bogus (they claim to have been forced off the land in 1935, but Stewart's Grandfather bought the place, abandoned, in 1918), there did not appear to be a lot of confidence that that would necessarily work in their favor. Their hope is that all that they have put into the local area (not just money) may be what saves them, for now. From my conversations with Stewart, land is one investment that white South Africans are staying clear of.
As far as a loss of revenue giving the government pause for thought - forget it! One has only to see the extreme poverty in that country and what the ANC-run government (they have a three-quarters majority) has failed to do about it to realize that the powers-that-be have only themselves in mind; their mantra, of course, is that it's all the fault of the Whites. To make ‘em happy – give them the land. If you know anything about Zimbabwe, this is all familiar ground.
I would love dearly to return to Melorani or elsewhere in South Africa in 3-4 years, but I'm not too confident that that will be possible.
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Ray,
Yes. I'm sure the world is different than in the 30's. I'm glad you can read. Having been an Infantry officer once upon a time I know what a coup is, and this isn't one. Being intertwined in the global economy is different than 1930's industrialization, so Nazi Germany has no relevance. The point, again, being that large scale societal destabilization (which includes a large land grab) is unlikely.
Good 'duck-smellin' to you.
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Here's is excerpt from today's AP reports; a couple more Red Flags.
By DONNA BRYSON | Associated Press Writer
12:49 PM EDT, September 22, 2008
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (AP) _
African National Congress leader Jacob Zuma didn't name an interim president for South Africa as everyone expected him to do Monday, but his impish chuckle at a news conference told reporters everything they needed to know.
“Zuma said Mbeki was asked to resign to allay public concern about divisions within the governing party. "The country needs a strong and united ruling party at the helm of government, capable of galvanizing support for the government's development agenda," he explained.
Mbeki had been accused of pursuing economic growth without paying enough attention to lifting South Africans out of poverty. Zuma said Monday that ensuring growth was crucial, but so was providing education, developing job skills and ensuring blacks had access to land. It's the kind of talk likely to make business jittery about Zuma, already seen as owing his rise to support from labor and the South African Communist Party.”
The country's moral beacon, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu, said he was deeply disturbed by Mbeki's axing. "The way of retribution leads to a banana republic," Tutu said Monday, voicing concern that the cloud of corruption still hangs over Zuma's head.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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Sad thing is with wealth.
If you take it from the rich & give it to the poor, then the poor stay poor. Their bank account changes, not their thinking. It doesn't take long for them to to be in a worse situation than before. AND - it is never their fault.
Thanks for your heads up Dr. Ashby
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I agree with Jeff Sample.
When I was with Barrel & Bow 3 weeks ago this is what they feared. Marco told me Zuma was tring to sieze power from Mbeki & that Zuma has ties to Mugabe in Zim. I too was hoping to return to SA in 4 years, & hope I am still able to. If you look at what happened to Zim you'd have to be a fool to think it couldn't happen in SA. Just because SA has a more industrialized economy dosen't insulate it from radicals destroying everything. When I was there the ANC had a mantra, "it's Apartheid's fault."
Whites are very concerned, & for good reason. If you heard & saw your nieghbors to the north have their land taken, & in many cases butchered, you'd have some serious concerns as well.
I'll say a prayer for all the friends I made while in SA, white & black, & hope all the best for them.
Chris G, let us know you're doing all right!
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this land grad thing is not a case of "they might start taking land in South Africa" they have already taken huge areas of land! its happening now guys its been happening for last 5 years and now Zuma is in its going to get worse!
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Mr Magoo,
Now I know where I remember you from. You're the guy who thought his world was crashing in on him because of some logging.
You have to be an educator, from your tone. I understand now.
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Read the book by David Lamb called the Afrikans. Its a review of post colonial africa from the 1950's to about 1985. The book details the numerous cultural issues and obsticals that faced and still plague the nations in africa who had at that time gained independence from the colonial powers in Europe. My guide, whose from South Africa, recommended it. Unfortunately, those problems are the same problems plaguing them now. bhill
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Please excuse my rambling and spelling. I was discussing this very issue with Wilham Frost, my guide/friend and owner of Matlabas Game Hunters, last week before all of the recent developments.
I previously ment to say that the very problems that faced the original "freed" and independent nations of subsahara Africa are the very same problems that now face South Africa. Ineffective and corrupt governments run by one tribe to the detriment of all other tribes are constantly being overthrown by other generals, tribes... who once supported the original government that week.
South Africa currently has 11 official languages which "help" represent the numerous black tribes that settled there. Why this is important is the value of the tribe within Africa. In America, we are Americans, maybe Texans, but rarely do we place as much worth in say our tribe or extended family / community as the African. No American family choses to form its own family army. It is rare in the US anymore to have long standing feuds between extended families that result in sustained armed conflict or genocide. With exception the the Amish and other such groups, American family groups don't normally create large independent economic systems to sustain their members and exclude all nonfamily individuals. As a whole, we have melted together. We are not as concerned in our ancestry when we buy our groceries, pick our hunting partners, choose our spouse.
The African will choose his tribe over almost everything. The concepts of national pride and a national economy are a new concepts to him, artificially placed on him through colonialism. In SFA, numerous africans told me almost everyday that we americans only see a bunch of black people, but in truth each tribe was a distinct and different tribe with totally unique traits and such. At the time I considered that rude since I was paying them $ only to be insulted. Now I see that they were right and unfortunately, each tribe with its distinct history and interests are mad at and in conflict with each other tribe. From David Lamb's book, it appeared generally that the African tribes would only stop warring and killing their own for 2 occasions :
1. If they were ordered to by military force who could enforce such a prohibition,(Great Britain in Kenya) or 2. To condemn the whites within the African continent,( The Independent african countries meet annually to discuss the continent's numerous issues such as plague, Aids, genocide of their own neighbors just to name a few. Before the end of Apartoid... please excuse my spelling..., these very nations would conveniently overlook the several thousands of dead africans at their borders who were slain by africans and spend endless hours attacking the then white run government of SFA). My point, these tribes have no allegiance to their nation and rarely value institutions
such as hunting that would benefit the nation as a whole. The value of an institution is weighed in its benefit to the tribe.
Example. The equal opportunity systems referred to earlier in this string on its face face appears to be an afirmative action program similar to that was in a our nation. This program forces businesses in SFA to hire or attempt to hire blacks before hiring a white person. Problem 1. These black candidates for such a job position are provided by the ruling government. They may not be the most qualified. 2. The list of qualified black canditates picked by the ruling government are normally from the same tribe as the members of the ruling party. I could go on for a while over those two issues, but I won't. The biggest problem with the system is not the program's willingness to further the economic interests of the blacks in SFA. The biggest problem is the system's willingness to further the interest of the ruling party's tribe over the other tribes in SFA. The whites, Zulus, ... just another tribe to the other tribes. To be attacked, to be victimized... to the benefit of the offender's tribe.
If SFA (or the continent as a whole) is to have any stability, the population as a whole most overlook centuries of tribal anymousity and view themselves, white and black, as South Africans. They must see their fate is dependent on the success of SFA as a nation, not their tribe. Unfortunatly, SFA's neighbors are still decades later battling with the failed promises of their own independence. It now appears that SFA is facing this same grief.
I'm done rambling. Obviously, I'm not an expert and have only been to the motherland 1 time and have only read a few books on the continent. But to answer the question, is anyone else afraid of this, I'm very afraid. For my future trips I'll admit, but more importantly for my new friends, the Frost Family, who let me play with my bow and arrow with the Kudus. Bhill
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The summer of 2007 I had paid my deposit and bought the airline tickets to go bowhunt in South Africa. I was told (by a person that has been bowhunting in SA 15 years) to NOT leave the airport in Jo-burg. "Do not let your bags out of your sight and stay at the Holiday Inn at the airport". Needless to say this scared me a bit. I wound up not going for other reasons do to the outfitter and non-hunter that I was bringing..LOL
I need to ask... Will it be safe for a Caucasian to travel into SA next year?
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John, "safe" is a relative term, and who know how safe it will be in South Africa next year? It wasn't all that great last year!
I was last in SA in April of 2007. Now, I've knocked around all of sub-Saharan Africa for many years, mostly traveling on my own. Last year I had one of my hunting buddies, Jim, along with me, and I still didn't feel all that safe even then; especially in the urban areas.
Jim and I were there mainly to visit my old Amigo (and the PH I've both hunted with and guided for) Gordon Cormack, who was terminally ill. We spent a few days with Gordon in Howick; a semi-rural community considered among the safer ones; before taking Gordon on what proved to be his list trip out bush. Gordon's car was stolen the day before we arrived in Howick (and never recovered); and shortly before our arrival the local taxidermist there (a very nice chap; an Aussie, living and working in Howick) was robbed when a car load of armed men rammed through his shop's security gate, shot him and a PH who was there to drop off his client's trophies (neither was fatally hit) and took the payroll he had just picked up at the bank, so he could pay his workers. Probably all that saved their lives is that the PH was armed, and returned fire, killing one of the five robbers and wounding another. The wounded robber and the three others escaped, never to be apprehended. The dead one didn't get away. An ambulance got there fairly quickly (from about a mile away), but it took over four hours for the police to arrive. The police station is located about midway between the shop and the hospital.
Bottom line, I do not recommend that anyone not fully aware of the dangers travel around South Africa on their own. If you're part of a larger group of hunters, you'll be a bit safer, as long as you stay together.
If you're going on a hunt I would recommend that you have your PH be there to meet you at the airport and take you directly out to camp. After the hunt he should take you directly back to the airport and see you safely onto the plane. That's the procedure we had to adopt for all of our hunting clients flying into Zimbabwe, as the situation there disintegrated. It's the safest procedure, and reduces the likelihood of a problem. Next best would be as you described; airport to the airport hotel and wait IN the hotel for your PH to collect you.
Some will say it's perfectly safe to travel in South Africa, and that they have had no problems. Between 1999 and 2001 I survived three attempted armed robberies in Africa (only because I was ALERT and WELL ARMED myself), and two of those occurred while I was in South Africa - and that doesn't include the loss of my passport, credit cards and a bunch of cash to a pickpocket while I was INSIDE the J'Burg airport to drop off some folks I'd driven down from Zim, for their return flight to the States!
I fear that the situation will get much worse long before it starts to get better. I'm not saying to not go, but IF you are going just go as safely as you can; and the sooner you go the safer it's likely to be.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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This summer, our tour guide for Pretoria said that there would be a tribal war in SFA very soon over the policies enacted by SFA's ruling tribe. The name of this tribe escapes me but the guide specifically stated that it was Nelson Mandela's tribe and this tribe routinely furthered its own interests through government means over the interests of the other tribes. He further stated sarcastically that in the dictionary under the term corruption, there was a picture of an african politician. This individual also went into painstaking detail regarding the tribal abuses I mentioned above regarding SFA's affirmative action programs. Now to be fair, the guide did have a dog in the fight, he was not member of Nelson's tribe but he was Zulu. I agree with the good doctor. We did not leave our guide's sight with exception to my wive's shopping and some guided trips in Joberg. Next time, I will be even more careful and skip all side trips and have my guide pick us up at the airport. Any new updates ? I haven't heard back from the Frosts since 2 days ago. Thanks, Bhill
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My wife and I just returned from a trip to South Africa in July. We took all the precautions and didn't have any issues. However, their way of driving on the shoulder and allowing others to pass has much to be desired. We came upon an accident scene where a vehicle rolled over. The driver was ejected and obviously dead. A few cars stopped but no one was even near the guy who was ejected. Our PH notified authorities at the next toll station, but he would not stop to help - I guess because he didn't feel it would be safe for us. The bottomline impression I got was that life doesn't hold quite the same value in South Africa as it does in the US. It may be the aids epidemic or the historical warring - but it did feel different.
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Here’s a comparison of the crime rate for some of the Africa countries for 1997 (newest I could find), per Interpol statistics. What I can tell you from my own trips; it’s far worse than this now! Do take all possible security precautions on your trips, and try to keep abreast of the rapidly changing political situation. It will have an effect on your personal security.
"SOUTH AFRICA COMPARED
By global standards, South Africa has extraordinary high levels of violent crime, according to 1997 Interpol statistics.2 In 1997, South Africa had the highest per capita rates of murder and rape, the second highest rate of robbery and violent theft (after the Bahamas), and the fourth highest rates of serious assault and sexual offences, of the 110 countries with crime levels listed by Interpol.3
South Africa’s per capita levels of property-related crime, commercial crime and drug-related offences were surpassed by a number of other countries, including numerous developed countries. South Africa’s property crime levels compare favourably with those of many developed countries if measured on a per capita basis. However, a better indication of property crime is to measure it in relation to the number of units of property.
For example, in 1997 some 248 cars were stolen per 100 000 people in South Africa. In France, 552 cars were stolen per 100 000 of the population. There are, however, about seven times as many cars on the roads of France than in South Africa (and probably even more if the cars from other European countries which travel through France every year are taken into account). This means that the chance of a car being stolen in South Africa is twice as high compared to France. Measured in this way, South Africa’s vehicle theft levels are not as favourable as Interpol’s figures indicate.
The 1997 Interpol report provides crime data for nine sub-Saharan countries only (including South Africa). The per capita crime rate for the major violent crimes of murder, rape, and robbery and violent theft was substantially higher in South Africa than in the other eight sub-Saharan countries. South Africa also had the highest per capita serious assault rate (541 per 100 000 of the population), but this was closely followed by Namibia (497 per 100 000)."
Ed
TGMM
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Mr.Magoo,
From your posts, I will venture that you are one that thinks the whites in Zimbabwe are getting their just desserts, in having their homes and farms taken.
From all my "reading" I am sadly sure that South Africa will suffer the same land grab fate.
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And that land grab has done so much for other African countries ! Once self sufficient countries who often exported the excess food to other countries for profit have been reduced to buying what import scraps of food are left at ridicules prices. Why ? Because like in Zim, the only people who were able to effectively farm, the whites who did it for generations, were either kicked or killed, and the land was redistributed to the ruling party's supporters who don't farm or care to learn. A great plan that has repeatedly failed Africa but is repeatedly relied upon but up and coming african leaders.
I know that I'm alittle obsessed over this but I really fell in love with that continent after my hunt. Bhill
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Brent, I understand exactly what you're saying. My first trip was in 1975, and I returned many times before I retired and moved there to live. For over 30 years I have been watching as a once vibrant, strong and health Lady Africa slowly dies from the spreading cancers of socialism, tribal conflict, greed and corruption; her demise hastened by the misguided, rampant liberalism of the Western World.
It is already far too late for one to meet who she once was, but even a bedside visit still touches; and one comes away with a sense of the grandeur she once held. I feel for all those future generations who will never know her touch on their lives.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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I was planning on going to SA in 2010... I will admit this is scary. I can't imagine anything worse than getting in "trouble" eight thousand miles from home. We will have to see what developes; maybe I will stay in North America.
John III
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Don't give up yet. Mr. frost said that numerous bowhunting outfits were less than exceptional but he did state that many in his business did run excellent and ethical operations. Upon further questioning (I'm a lawyer), hestated that Dries Visser which was near his camp ran an excellent bowhunting operation. At that point, I was very pleased with his operation and did not have any inclination to hunt with anyone else. I was actually impressed that he would recommend one of his competitors. Now I may be considering Vissre's camp in Namibia. I haven't given up on sfa for 2010. As far as I know, Mbeki hasn't been killed yet and that there appears to be somewhat of a peaceful transfer of power. In addition, land hasn't been taken yet. However, if any of thoes two possibilities occur, I will be changing my plans. I don't know. Time will tell.
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I'm sorry, I hit a wrong button and this posted. Dr. Ashby or anyone lese, what do think of Namibia? Side note to the good doctor. Its been a real pleasure reading all of your studies on arrow penetration. Thanks for all of your work. Bhill
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Brent, it's likely that Namibia will follow South Africa; politically.
Namibia has a number of very large ranches for hunting; and some still have a lot of free ranging indigenous game. I prefer to stalk when hunting, and am not a big fan of hunting the blinds so commonly used in SA. Because of that, as a general rule I preferred much of Namibia to most of the SA game farms.
You are doing things right; if you are able to go, go soon and go often; I don't think it will be that long before you'll be looking back saying "I wish ..".
Thanks for the kind words on the Study. Much appreciated.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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Brent land has been taken in South Africa!!!
there's a lot the press keeps from everyone.
Namibia will go the same way there is a push for land redistribution and to be honest not much has been done since independence.
Beautiful place though as is most of southern Africa, really like Namibia and as Ed mentioned the hunting is a bit better guides will give you plenty of freedom to hunt the way you want and they are pretty open to suggestions,
better then the business operation in SA where you can sit in a box with four arrows and a radio and everything you shoot(not hunt) is most likely a trophy because it was put there at the start of the season, waterhole are closed at night and there is a nice bale of feed out side your window that the animals have to eat from because the place is overstocked and overgrazed.
the National parks are now Very expensive in Namibia there is a price for locals which even they can not afford, then a price for south Africans and then when a good old american (or foreigner) walks in and says "how much?" you most well just bend over right there.
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Is there any militancy among the white population in South Africa? I see that demographically, they make up between 10 and 15% of the population, only two groups compose larger percentages… by working together it seem difficult to force redistribution. Even at the height of the population, whites in Zim never made up more than 7-8%
Lucas
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I didn't know it had gone that far already. Thats very concerning. Any updates as to the present day to day situation ? Bhill
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"Africans are in the majority at just over 38-million, making up 79.6% of the total population. The white population is estimated at 4.3-million (9.1%), the coloured population at 4.2-million (8.9%) and the Indian/Asian population at just short of 1.2-million (2.5%).
While more than three-quarters of South Africa's population is black African, this category is neither culturally nor linguistically homogenous."
Taken from SouthAfrica.info
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Here's the latest information for South Africa from the U.S. State Department traveller’s information site: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1008.html
SAFETY AND SECURITY: Travelers are encouraged to be vigilant and avoid any large gathering, particularly protests and demonstrations. The possibility of violence, including threats against American interests, should not be discounted, particularly in times of heightened world tension.
South Africa has seen a number of attacks directed at foreigners – particularly refugees or immigrants from other African nations. Many of the attacks were centered in Johannesburg and the province of Gauteng in low income neighborhoods and informal settlements, but incidents of mob violence have taken place throughout the country. Many individuals have been killed in these incidents and many more, both targeted victims and bystanders, have been injured. While there have been no reports of Americans or other non-African visitors being targeted, these incidents of mob violence have sprung up quickly and proven difficult for local authorities to control. American residents and visitors are advised to listen to local media for reports of such incidents and to avoid areas (including but not limited to townships) where they may be likely to occur.
For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should regularly monitor the Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs’ web site at http://travel.state.gov, where the current Travel Warnings and Travel Alerts, as well as the Worldwide Caution, can be found.
Up-to-date information on safety and security can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the U.S. and Canada, or for callers outside the U.S. and Canada, a regular toll-line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).
The Department of State urges American citizens to take responsibility for their own personal security while traveling overseas. For general information about appropriate measures travelers can take to protect themselves in an overseas environment, see the Department of State’s pamphlet A Safe Trip Abroad.
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CRIME: Although the vast majority of visitors complete their travels in South Africa without incident, visitors should be aware that criminal activity, often violent, occurs routinely. Notwithstanding government anti-crime efforts, violent crimes such as armed robbery, carjacking, mugging, "smash and grab" attacks on vehicles, and other incidents are regularly reported by visitors and resident Americans.
Visitors and residents are advised of ongoing criminal activity involving organized crime gangs targeting individuals at shopping centers and in particular at the OR Tambo International Airport, Johannesburg. Once a victim has been identified, he/she is followed back to his/her residence and robbed, usually at gunpoint, although the use of force is generally reserved for those offering some form of resistance. These gangs tend to target more “affluent” individuals, including people driving expensive cars, wearing eye-catching jewelry, flashing large amounts of cash, and/or making high-value purchases. Criminals also gravitate towards “soft” targets – people who appear preoccupied and do not pay attention to their immediate surroundings. Tourists have been targeted in a similar fashion at the airport. It appears that criminals may view certain incoming travelers as suitable targets (due perhaps to dress, jewelry or use of an ATM) and notify confederates who follow the travelers to rob them at their destination or even en route. Visitors who believe they are being followed should drive directly to a police station or other public location.
Automated Teller Machines (ATMs) have increasingly been targeted by criminals. The use of commercial explosives to blow up ATMs is a relatively new phenomenon in South Africa. In 2006, 54 such attacks were recorded. In 2007, the number of ATM bombings jumped to 387. While statistically affecting only a small percentage of machines, in the first half of 2008, the number of attacks was nearly 200. ATM bombings have usually taken place in the early hours of the morning in remote or isolated areas although recent attacks have taken place at gas stations and shopping complexes. Criminals also loiter near ATM machines and target persons withdrawing cash. Based on these threats, the following security precautions are recommended: Avoid using ATMs in dark, remote, or isolated areas. ATMs located inside shopping malls, hotels, and banks are preferred since they are normally high-traffic areas, and monitored by security guards and cameras. Avoid using an ATM with a cord or other foreign object attached to it. Should you notice a suspicious device on an ATM, immediately leave the area; take cover, and notify the police. Shrapnel and debris from an explosion can travel long distances and cause serious injury or death. Before withdrawing money, scan the area for any suspicious persons or activity. Should anyone approach you while you are withdrawing money, immediately cancel the transaction and leave the area. Should you be confronted by an armed individual - immediately comply, avoid making sudden movements, and do not offer any form of resistance. Any hesitation on your part could be perceived as a threat which may result in unnecessary violence. Criminals do not discriminate. Members of the international diplomatic community have recently been included as targets of crime.
Motorists are urged to be extremely cautious when approaching intersections and to hide bags, cell phones, and other valuables from view. Criminals are on the lookout for valuable items they can see through the car windows (see mention of “smash and grab” under traffic safety). Doors should be kept locked and windows rolled up at all times.
Crimes against property, such as carjacking, have often been accompanied by violent acts, including murder, when victims resist or are slow to respond to attackers’ demands. South Africa also has the highest incidence of reported rape in the world. Foreigners are not specifically targeted, but several have been the victims of rape. Victims of violent crime, especially rape, are strongly encouraged to seek immediate medical attention, including antiretroviral therapy against HIV/AIDS. Questions about how to receive such treatment should be directed to the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate.
Criminal activity, such as assault, armed robbery, and theft is particularly high in areas surrounding many hotels and public transportation centers, especially in major cities. Theft of passports and other valuables is most likely to occur at airports, bus terminals, and train stations. A number of Americans have been mugged or violently attacked on commuter and metro trains, especially between Johannesburg and Pretoria. Several American travelers also reported theft of personal belongings after strangers whom they invited into their hotel drugged them. In at least one instance, an American died after being drugged and robbed in this manner.
There is a serious baggage pilferage problem at OR Tambo, Johannesburg and Cape Town International airports, particularly affecting travelers changing airlines and those flying on smaller airlines—passengers flying on major international carriers may not be affected to the same degree. Travelers are encouraged to secure their luggage with Transportation Security Administration (TSA) approved locks, use an airport plastic wrapping service, and avoid placing electronics, jewelry, cameras or other valuables in checked luggage. Make an inventory of items in checked baggage to aid in claims processing if theft does occur.
In the Western Cape, police resources have been strained by continuing gang conflicts and vigilante violence in the low income areas and informal settlements in Cape Town. The Cape Flats area, surrounding townships, and squatter camps adjacent to the city center, should be avoided by people unfamiliar with the area. Additionally, travelers should be aware that muggings have become common along many popular routes on Table Mountain, a prime tourist destination in Cape Town. Visitors to Table Mountain should be vigilant, hike in groups, and not carry valuables.
Armed robbery of cash-in-transit vehicles and personnel occurs throughout South Africa and peaks during December and January due to the increase in cash flow from commercial stores to banks. These attacks have also included incidents at major malls and in large grocery stores. Individuals should raise their level of situational awareness while in the vicinity of cash-in-transit vehicles and personnel and should avoid areas where they are located to the maximum extent possible.
Credit card fraud, counterfeit U.S. currency, and various check-cashing scams are frequently reported. Do not accept "assistance" from anyone, or agree to assist others with ATM transactions. Travelers should try to avoid using ATMs after bank business hours or in remote locations. When giving your credit card to a store or restaurant employee for processing, do not let them take the card out of your sight. Visitors should also beware of telephone or email schemes, which attempt to win the confidence of an unsuspecting American who is persuaded either to provide privileged financial information or travel to South Africa to assist in a supposedly lucrative business venture.
To check on a business’s legitimacy while in the U.S., contact the International Trade Administration, Room 3317, Department of Commerce, Washington, DC 20230, telephone: 1-800-USA-TRADE or 202-482-5149, fax: 202-482-5198. If you are abroad, contact the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate.
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INFORMATION FOR VICTIMS OF CRIME: The loss or theft abroad of a U.S. passport should be reported immediately to the local police and the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate. If you are the victim of a crime while overseas, in addition to reporting to local police, please contact the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate for assistance. The Embassy/Consulate staff can, for example, assist you to find appropriate medical care, contact family members or friends and explain how funds could be transferred. Although the investigation and prosecution of the crime is solely the responsibility of local authorities, consular officers can help you to understand the local criminal justice process and to find an attorney if needed.
The local equivalent to the “911” emergency line in South Africa is 10111.
See our information on Victims of Crime.
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Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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One of my coworkers is from SA and he just returned from visiting family there. I talked to him last Friday about the situation and he confirmed much that has been written here. He also talked about the power grid in disrepair and the crime rate. Unfortunately for him he has family that is unable to leave as the process is very expensive and you have to pay annually for the chance to qualify.
His impression is that unlike other countries the whites are armed and won't go without a fight.
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Talondale,
Did your coworker tell you if any "family" ground has been taken? Does he believe there could be armed action against the government?
JDS III
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Yes unfortunately things are getting worse and worse in SA. Crime is getting even more out of control, contrary to what the corrupt head of the police force and government are trying to get us to believe. The electricity supply is on the verge of (another) breakdown, cost of living has skyrocketed and I can continue with the list. I'm (along with the majority of white South Africans) very worried about what's going to happen in the future if (when) Zuma becomes president. He, like all other African leaders, only has 1 objective and that is to line his and his friends pockets at the expense of the people and unfortunately so many black South Africans don't see that he's just going to take them for a ride. I'm going to start making plans in January to apply for residency in Australia, I just hope I can get my family out too.
All of this said, there have been a few reports over the last week that the ANC have lost a lot of supporters because of the Mbeki deal and that after a snap pole the ANC and the DA (the main opposition) are neck and neck at the moment. There have also been a few reports of a break-away party being formed by the ANC members that support Mbeki but how true this is I don't know. All I hope is that the ANC do not get a 2/3rds majority at the next election. Unfortunately so many white people have the attitude of "I'm not going to vote because the ANC will win anyway and what's my 1 vote going to help?" This attitude is going to be the final nail in our coffin. So if you're a South African eligible to vote in next years election, vote!
I still love SA though!
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Best of luck to your family and the rest of your community. Its very unfortunate what is being forced on your homeland. We are very concerned for you and appreciate you sharing this update with us. Bhill
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Clayton, I can't tell you how much my heart goes out to you and your family. I miss Africa something terrible.
All the best in your attempts to get into Australia. I think you have a pretty good chance. I was too old, and because of that have never managed to get residency in Australia. I just have to travel in and out on a multiple entry visa; going out at least every three months. Being retired that's not such a great problem; but the cost and the interruptions in things I want to get accomplished in Oz is a real pain.
If I can help you out in any way, let me know.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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Its all very sad to say the least. I first visited Africa in 92 and have now spent almost three months on African soils. I have watched closely as Zim deteriated from a propsperous nation to its current low. South Africa appears to be heading down the same path. The big issue is outside help and intervention, unfortunatly the rest of the world does not give not give a dam about Africa. Other than the aids and famine issues the western World ignores Africa, which is very sad. More people have died in the past ten years on African soil to war/fighting than in our worlds history. No one gives a dam, to be frank. Without alot of outside help and intervention the vicious cycle will only continue. My heart goes out to my friends and any of you that continue to maintain your way of life on this amazing continent. God bless you all and Africa.
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Mark my words,this is coming to the country where your feet stand, the problems of Africa have Always found a way the rest of the world. That is any country, any where. The participants don't nessicarily need be black and white. Tribalism, as with most other isms' is a base condition for the disenfranchised(and the corrupt, power mad leaders that use those emotions). Gangs, cults, movements, proponents of "change"....it's all the same nonsense. Unfortunately it appears that all we can do is watch, or is it? As the somewhat responsible guv's topple in Africa, the people and resources that were such a draw to the rest of the world suffer unspeakable consiquence. Perhaps it is naieve' to think that some of the worlds powerers can make any positive difference. they never have, despite good intention-or bad. In the end Africa remains a wild continent, not the one we knew and loved, but nevertheless untameable and dangerous.
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Hey guys.
Sadly things are looking quite dismal for safas everywhere!!
Got family in the eastern cape, mom says they have been told they are gonna be faceing 30 - 40 hrs worth of power cuts over a 10 day period for the next 4 months if not longer :mad: ! Generator companies are making a killing!! So my brother in law is gonna be wireing up the electics this weekend! Like tradtusker says, land reposession has been quietly happening more and more over the last 5/7 years! I know of a PH that had his farm 'Forceably bought' after the gov found platnum on it :scared: Guess they paid him market price, but one wonders how long they will keep doing that?!
All we can do is :pray:
Jason
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Are there any News sites that will give me the truth as to what is happening in SA? Not spin, but the truth.
JDS III
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Most sites are full of spin in one form or the other news24 or the ap is what I read!