Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Dark Continent => Topic started by: BUFF on January 17, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
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Lion
Disclaimer #1
This hunt takes place on a 5000ac high fenced ranch in the Kalahari Desert, Western RSA, and Six miles to the south of Botswana. I thought I would start off with this information so if you had Moral issues about Lion hunting inside a high fence, you would save yourself some time and not have to read the rest of my dribble.
As I write this they have been able to post pone the court order banning lion hunting in the RSA until November 2010. I have to wonder about the folks from Europe who have pushed this ban through.
Do they not realize that if no one can sell a hunt for lions to offset the cost of the game they kill, there will be on Lions? Legal or not the ranchers will shoot them on sight and they will be gone forever if they can’t recoup their losses buy selling hunts.
Bow hunting for Lion has already been banned in most of the African countries and it took me 3 years to get the permits for this hunt. I did not relish the thought of hunting the Kalahari in midsummer but I was sure if I did not go now, I most likely would never be able to.
Diclaimer#2
The following story is true to the best of my recollection. Normally after a hunt I will watch the video and with that along with what I remember write my tale. This story however is going to be different. The outfitter, Dare to Bowhunt did a great job I’m sure at videoing our adventure with two high tech HD cameras. The problem is, while I have both tapes we could not down load them to my computer or theirs. So I have no ideal what I have to work with once I get back to the states and find someone to help me convert the data to something I can work with. It will be interesting to watch and compare. Anyway, here we go.
I love the mornings in Africa. The sounds of the bushvelt get my heart pumping as the first light gets everything up and moving. Nothing says Africa like the distant whinny of Zebra. It is 5:00 AM and I’m out shooting my bow in the half light, I’m pumped. It has taken three years and a hundred letters, E-mails and phone calls to get them permits to be here. I have my trusty 74# Blackwidow and a quiver full of German Kinetic tipped arrows on my back. I’m ready, I’m after Lion.
Everyone loads up in a land rover and we head out. Lammie and I in the back, Freddy and Lammie’s wife slash camera girl Allison inside, with two trackers setting in seats built on the front bumper to get them down close to the sand.
The plan is to ride the roads looking for fresh tracks. I am hoping of a big lioness. We cross tracks fairly often and Freddy and the trackers bale out and study them. Some are too small; some are of groups, after an hour or so we cut a set that I can tell are promising. I speak no Africans but could tell from the excitement in the voices of the trackers that these looked good. We followed along, on foot at a slow but steady pace. When we would come to an area where she had laid in the sand you could see from the body print in the sand, she was a big critter. The trackers were amazing, when they would lose the track they would split up and circle around like two bird dogs. One would pick it up and with a soft whistle we would be off again. We were easing along the edge of a thorn thicket when one of the trackers went on point; arm outstretched making a hissing sound like someone letting the air out of a tire. Lammie motioned me forward, whispering “do you see her?” I did not. After a few tense moments I made out a swishing tail. I followed it forward until I finally made out the Lion’s body and finally her head. I have never witnessed an animal harder to see than this lion lying in the high grass. We eased in to just under forty yards and ran out of cover. Lammie hissed in my ear, “You have to shoot from here”. My bow came up; I hit my anchor only to have her disappear. I let down. She is laying there but I can’t focus on her. Laying in the shade of a thorn bush, me in the blazing desert sun, my eyes were playing tricks on me. I make her out again and launch an arrow at her. When the arrow hit her it was pandemonium. The Lioness leaped up spinning around in circles cutting loose with a mighty roar. Both trackers busted out of there like a covey of Quail, both PHs stepping up beside me rifles ready. She was gone like smoke into the ticket.
We held our positions for a while, waiting for her to come rushing at us. I on one knee arrow ready bow half drawn (like that would help if she charged) guns either side of my head. ???? “Guns either side of my head????” Hey; wait a minute, if they cut loose with those two cannons my brain is going to turn to jelly and run out of my ears. I slowly start inching back. No one is sure of where I hit her. I think it is too low. All we are sure of is the arrow was in her chest but we can find no blood. A plan is made to circle the thicket in hope we can spot her, hopefully dead in the brush. Myself, I wanted to leave her for a hour, then look for her. Lammie reminded me that if she was dead, in an hour she would be ruined due to the 100 degree heat.
We moved slowly. One step at a time, stopping to squat and try to stare under the thorn bushes. It was tense. We had made it about one hundred yards when I heard the most startling thing I have ever heard in my life. A soft growl, so soft I don’t think she even knew she was making it and close, on more than twenty yards away. As everyone knows Texans are born and breed to stand and fight. In my fifty plus years I have never backed down or ran from much of anything BUT when Freddy dropped to one knee and hissed the African version #@*&%# bringing his .404 to ready, Lammie grabbed the back of my overall and in a whisper kinda scream “We gotta move” I was more than ready. Rather than move back and hide in the thorns, the lion had moved along with us, staying just out of sight, parallel to us in the brush. We beat a tactical retreat, from a distance it might have looked like three white guys and a girl chasing two black guys with everyone running backwards but it was tactical, “really”.
After we regrouped the plan was made to circle around and come at her from a different direction. I need to take a minute to explain this thorn thicket. It was about the size of a football field; the bushes were maybe ten foot tall and grew together at the top to make a solid canopy from about waist high. Below the waist it was fairly open with only the trunks of the trees. The only way we could see into the thicket was to drop down onto our knees. Advantage Lion, as she could not have had a better fort.
After making a wide circle we eased back close to the ticket. To say we were moving slow would be an understatement. We had cover fifty yards in a half a hour, when Lammie decided enough. Someone’s is going to get hurt. They had a tracker pulled down in 2009 under similar circumstances and while he survived the mauling, being bitten in the chest by a four hundred pound critter can never be a good thing. The decision was made to bring the Landrover and try to push her out of the ticket, hopefully when she stopped, it would be in an area we could put a stalk on. A tracker was sent after the truck and we backed up under some welcome shade. I seemed to have misplaced my hat during our hundred yard backward dash… I mean our tactical retreat and the Kalahari sun was baking my bald head.
We loaded back up Freddy driving, Allison inside with him, Lammie and I in the back and the trackers standing on the back bumper. It seemed they did not care for our plan and had no intention of getting in the truck as they expected the Lion to charge rather than run and plucking someone from the back would be no great feat for the Lion. We had not move fifty yards when we spotted the Lion. Apparently while we rested in the shade, she had stalked within fifty yards of us and laid down waiting in ambush for us to start walking again. At this point I am standing on top of the cab of the truck and have a good view of her about twenty five yards away. It is a standoff. If we move forward she will surly charge the truck, leaving Lammie no option but to put bullet holes in my lion but she is lying facing us. My only shot is at her head. After a couple of minutes she began to growl. At first softly, then deeper and louder. I have no words to describe the sound but nothing you have heard in a movie is even close. It was a sound of pour hate. Her tail went from swishing back and forth to curling up and slapping the ground straight behind her. Lammie said in a tense voice “shoot her now” I had no shot “shoot her anywhere, you must turn her or she is coming”. Standing at full draw I picked a spot just left of her eye, hoping to go into her neck and the down through her body.
As often happens with tradition equipment my arrow went right where I was looking and smacked her right under the eye. Once again she was roaring and spinning and then poof, gone like smoke. The decision is made to once again back out and regroup, hopefully with a better plan. Freddy starts up the truck and we move forward no more than half a minute when one of the trackers make a whistling, popping noise. The Lion is back but she has made a mistake. Her head is hidden, as she glares at us through the roots of a thorn bush but her body is exposed. I one motion my bow is up and the GK head is buried to the feathers tight behind her shoulder. We followed her on foot back into the ticket to find her still alive but in bad shape. Moving around behind her I slipped a couple of insurance arrows into her and it was done. From the first shot to the last was most likely no more than two hours but it seemed like days.
I cannot say enough good things about Lammie and the entire Dare to Bowhunt outfit. The man has nerves of steel and showed great restraint. He had several opportunities to finish my Lion with his gun but fought with me to get her down with my bow. As a bow hunter his self he knows how disappointing it is to us to have someone finish our hunt with a gunshot.
As excited about my hunt as I am, I can’t help but be a little sad. This will most likely be one of the last Lions ever taken with a recurve or any bow for that matter. Politicos and greenies from Europe will have their way and my son’s and grandson’s will never have the chance to know the rush that I experienced following a wounded lion into the high grass.
Marty Thomas
(http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/images/Lion1.JPG)
(http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/images/lion3.JPG)
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... wow.
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Awesome story Buff, congrats. :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Great story... :clapper: :clapper:
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How many arrows did it take? Where did the 1st arrow hit her? Good Story. Congrats!
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As always Marty, LOVE the story and pics. Sounds like the old girl didn't want to give up easily. My hair is standing up on my neck just from reading about the standoff. Sir you must have "cohones" that clank.
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Originally posted by Keith Zimmerman:
How many arrows did it take? Where did the 1st arrow hit her? Good Story. Congrats!
I had six. First one hit her low in the chest. Split her breast bone but didn't get the heart
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that is amazing----congrat's
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Great story Marty excellent shooting you should be proud. Thanks for sharing your hunt with us.
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WOW! Well told.
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Congrats. Would have been a tense time after the first shot!
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Well told stroy Marty. Do the fences stop the Lions from roaming?
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Wow, great story. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Speachless....Great story :thumbsup:
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Way to go Marty! Keep it up and the big 5 will be yours i no time.
Congrats,
Bisch
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Man, that story really took me there thanks. And WOW thats a big cat.
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Buff,
Its always more complicated than we try to make it, but hunters only have themselves to blame for this being one of the last lions taken with a bow in SA anyway.
When you start down that slippery slope of holding hunts inside fenced enclosures, you are on your way to giving "greenies" all the ammunition they need to sway the 80% of those folks out there who aren't hunters and don't MIND hunters, as long as they do it fair chase.
There were some pretty awful stories coming out of SA regarding lions. There was even a video with a fence clearly in the back of the picture and the lion charged and was killed in the nick of time by rifle shooters, just after it knocked one hunter to the ground- but the fence was right there, keeping the lion from doing anyhting but charging.
Again, there's obviously more to it than that- nothing is ever as simple as we want to make it- but if you talk to some sources you will find I am not too far off the mark.
The vast majority of operators in SA? No, they're not bad people, but they didn't police their own ranks well enough and the worst of the worst brought this down upon their own heads.
If people have the guts to do it, I feel certain they can go to other places and free range hunt lions- they just won't be able to do it in SA.
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I just don't know. How would we respond / feel if this was a moose, elk, or red deer on 5000 acres fenced-in? In some places of the world, 5000 acres is huge, and in other parts it is small. Had these lions been there for countless generations, or had they or their parents been purchased for hunting? Perhaps I've ruined the golden silence, but for want of answers to nagging questions I have chosen to express my uncomfortable concern.
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I agree. Anything canned is not hunting!
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Had these lions been there for countless generations, or had they or their parents been purchased for hunting? Perhaps I've ruined the golden silence, but for want of answers to nagging questions I have chosen to express my uncomfortable concern.
Nicely put Ben . i too, have the same concerns.
Ben
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I take it that these fences do keep lions from roaming. In that case....... I have to agree with Ben.
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Originally posted by FerretWYO:
I take it that these fences do keep lions from roaming. In that case....... I have to agree with Ben.
Wow I meant to write a disclaimer at the first of my post stating, If you were uncomfortable with hunting under a high fence Please read no further.
In the 3 years it took me to put this together I contacted pretty much every goverment where there was a huntable population of Lion. getting a permit to hunt them with a recuve was not do able. Sorry if I offended anyone.
PS that is hard to take from someone who has a barn yard animal for their Avatar
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Buff ,
as a side note
if by "barnyard animals" , you are referring to Ben's avatar with the donkey in frame ... these animals are truly wild animals [ declared as pests for the massive ecological damage they do every year ] living in some of the most remote places on earth .
they breed , live and die in the wild with rarely a fence to be seen .
i was not offended by your post but remain concerned with the future of hunting in Africa / South Africa due to some dubious and well documented hunting practices . this was in no way meant to be a reflection on your post or even meant to suggest any inclination otherwise .
" Fences " as a term just always triggers alarm bells with me as I'm sure it does with many others .
Best to you
Ben Maher
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Marty, if you could put my concerns to rest with answers, I would gratefully breathe a sigh of relief, enjoy learning something new, and congratulate you on an achievement.
Now, as for disclaimers, you really can't expect to post things in public and then have people go, "Ooh, okay, I better not read that because I might not like it." I mean, what if somebody wrote, "Disclaimer: Don't continue reading if you don't like shooting tethered animals!" Or, "Don't continue reading if you don't like reading about gutshots and non-recovery!" These are just examples of scenarios which would evoke strong responses, and disclaimers just don't cut it.
Your lion hunt doesn't offend me at all. I simply have questions about it, and would love to have my concerns allayed. Now, as for your last comment, yes, that did offend me. :archer:
I do enjoy your hunts and respect your ability, but I simply have questions about this one.
Best regards,
Ben
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Ben sorry for the tackey post, please forgive me. I have been awake for 30 or so hours. The Lion was not tied druged or in a little pin. it chose to stay in the 10ac thicket but had it wanted to it could have run several miles but you are correct in that eventually a fence would have stoped it from leaving the property.
In a way I'm paying for the sins of my brothers. I had hoped that due to being in Africa for work half the year, I might have a chance to kill the big 5 with a trad bow. My problem has been and continues to be that in the past so many folks have came to Africa with under poundage bows and shot so poorly that getting a permit is next to impossible. For now I have hopes of maybe getting a permit for Elephant in Zimbabwe but I have little or no hope for a permit for leopard with trad gear. If I chose to go with a compound it is still doable but that is not my dream. If I had my choice I would have much rather hunted a free range Lion in another country. I have the time and the finances and have worked hard to be able to shoot heavy the equipment needed but no one will allow it.
Just for the record, I hunted Donkeys in Australia last year and did not get one. I was just being an ass. I have another hunt booked for Australia in june of this year
Buff
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sorry double post :knothead:
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Buff...on your return to Oz are hunting "Buff" ? lol...
Ben
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Originally posted by BUFF:
Originally posted by FerretWYO:
I take it that these fences do keep lions from roaming. In that case....... I have to agree with Ben.
Wow I meant to write a disclaimer at the first of my post stating, If you were uncomfortable with hunting under a high fence Please read no further.
In the 3 years it took me to put this together I contacted pretty much every goverment where there was a huntable population of Lion. getting a permit to hunt them with a recuve was not do able. Sorry if I offended anyone.
PS that is hard to take from someone who has a barn yard animal for their Avatar [/b]
I would be the first to say that I know nothing about hunting lions in Africa. I did not intend to offend you Marty I appolagize for doing that. I know that you would have a hard time building a fence to stop a mountian lion and it was to that which I was refering my original question. I know that you worked hard for this animal and that you completed this hunt by the best means that you could and were aloud. I was merely wondering a few of the same things that others were and hoping to learn a little. I respect your accomplishments and talent. I always enjoy your hunts Marty.
I appolagize for any wrong doing.
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No worries, mate.
All the best on your next trip over this way! I'm sure you're probably scheming to nail a water buffalo, and I'm sure you'll nail one.
Cheers,
Ben
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Originally posted by FerretWYO:
Originally posted by BUFF:
Originally posted by FerretWYO:
I take it that these fences do keep lions from roaming. In that case....... I have to agree with Ben.
Wow I meant to write a disclaimer at the first of my post stating, If you were uncomfortable with hunting under a high fence Please read no further.
In the 3 years it took me to put this together I contacted pretty much every goverment where there was a huntable population of Lion. getting a permit to hunt them with a recuve was not do able. Sorry if I offended anyone.
PS that is hard to take from someone who has a barn yard animal for their Avatar [/b]
I would be the first to say that I know nothing about hunting lions in Africa. I did not intend to offend you Marty I appolagize for doing that. I know that you would have a hard time building a fence to stop a mountian lion and it was to that which I was refering my original question. I know that you worked hard for this animal and that you completed this hunt by the best means that you could. I was merely wondering a few of the same things that others were and hoping to learn a little.
I appolagize for any wrong doing. [/b]
you did nothing wrong the rudness was all mine :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ben Kleinig:
No worries, mate.
All the best on your next trip over this way! I'm sure you're probably scheming to nail a water buffalo, and I'm sure you'll nail one.
Cheers,
Ben
yes maybe 2 :p it looks like Austrilia may be my next base of operations. should be spending alot of time in Mackay over the next couple of years. chasing donkeys, milk goats and camels doesn't sound that exciting but I'm sure I will be hard after them.
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This is an interesting thread and perfectly illustrates the problems ethical hunters have dealing with the fallout of the unethical actions of the few. I have posted before on 'hunting' lion in SA. Now the chickens have come home to roost. So a lion hunt in SA is going to be high fence, the bigger the area the better. Buff, you are indeed a very good shot and we have seen your vids of other hunts. From what you have written it is clear you are following a dream and trying to do it right. 5000 acres is not huge but in that part of the kalahari depending on the thickness of the bush (it varies) 5000 acres can be enough, more is far better. The lions you mention sound to me like they are familiar with humans. That many in such a 'small' area and the willingness of the lion to stalk and follow you make me wonder. So right about rangers shooting them on sight, lions were and perhaps still are regarded as problem animals, livestock farmers hate them.
chrisg
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Buff that's a Beaty liones great job! Cheers Marlon
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Buff that's a Beaty liones great job! Cheers Marlon
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Great story.
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That is awesome!! Congrats on a huge accomplishment and thanks for sharing. I enjoyed the story very much and hope one day I get to see the wilds of Africa! :thumbsup:
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truth of the matter is people like Marty are paying for the survival of our African Wildlife. Period!
as for the Ethical side thats up to YOU, i know you guys don't mean to push your ethics onto Marty, but make sure you have an informed opinion before making a harmful statement.
It was not brought on by our selves as hunters, many here are just misinformed if i had more time i would love to explain and give you facts from the ground, and you would come away with a real understanding of thats actually happening out there.
but right now i have a wedding to get to
maybe at a latter point we can discuss it in a different thread without getting off topic here
Marty Congrats on a Beautiful Cat!
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Congrats, buff.
Buff thank you for allowing me to live vicariously through your hunts. Ps have heart set on buff hunt in OZ early 2011. Loved OZ on my first untrad [recurve only missing wheels] hunt and Paul Rae at Upindi rules!
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Andy, you may want to get into this on another thread, but you've stated that those who think this was brought on by hunters are mistaken, then you'll have to deal with that here.
I know PH'S in Africa...I have known them for years....as I stated in my post, it's always more complicated than we want to make it, but you can't tell me that hunters didn't have a lot to do with what happened- the hunters PAID to hunt in ways that were perverted and those hunts didn't play well in front of the non hunting public-
or are you saying all of this was George Bush's fault?
It takes two to tango- operators don't offer perverted hunts very long if no one buys them.
And no, I'm not saying Marty's hunt specifically was perverted- but there's tons of irrefutable evidence out there to corroborate what I'm saying- put that together with politically active animal rights activists with lots of money and politicians who know which way the wind is blowing, and you have a recipe where 10% or less of the world's population (hunters) are going to be painted with a broad brush to look bad because of the actions of a few ne'er do wells and we came out the losers- no surprise, and no way to blame others but ourselves.
If we don't police ourselves, someone is going to do it for us.
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More power to you. I already read this thread on another site and had to read it again. Sounds like a fun hunt, and that's what it's all about...having fun!
If I had the skills and bills, I'd be doing the same thing. One day ;)
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One of the things I have learned, trying to get permits for bowhunting in Africa is that you have to be very carefull what you are buying, I had several operators offer me hunts only to find out they would be getting a permit to hunt with a gun. Their stand was "once we get the permit, you can kill the lion any way you want, who will know"
I would be layingt if I said that I was not tempted but I really hate the ideal of spending a few years in an African prison
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Originally posted by chrisg:
This is an interesting thread and perfectly illustrates the problems ethical hunters have dealing with the fallout of the unethical actions of the few. I have posted before on 'hunting' lion in SA. Now the chickens have come home to roost. So a lion hunt in SA is going to be high fence, the bigger the area the better. Buff, you are indeed a very good shot and we have seen your vids of other hunts. From what you have written it is clear you are following a dream and trying to do it right. 5000 acres is not huge but in that part of the kalahari depending on the thickness of the bush (it varies) 5000 acres can be enough, more is far better. The lions you mention sound to me like they are familiar with humans. That many in such a 'small' area and the willingness of the lion to stalk and follow you make me wonder. So right about rangers shooting them on sight, lions were and perhaps still are regarded as problem animals, livestock farmers hate them.
chrisg
I stewed for a long time whether or not to even post the story. As it left me wide open for the bashers out there in forum land. Poor shooting, High fence, but it was what it was. If that makes any since. I really wish I could have hunted in Kenya or Angola for free range Lion. Spent alot of time begging for a permit but couldn't get it done legally. I wish I had made a better first shot. 1" --- just 1" higher and it would have been in the heart.
I put the little disclaimer on there not expecting anyone to stop reading but to make sure everyone understood that I was not trying to make this into anything more than it was.
All that said it was a hoot and I wouldn't take anything for the memory I have of it
I will most likely keep the video to myself and my close friends. The world is a small place and with whats going on in Germany and Australia I would hate for folks to us it against bow hunting, that it took me 3 arrows to bring her down.
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I have respect for you just because you did your thing regardless of what others would think of you and your choice. I think a lot more people would have a lot more fun shooting/hunting if they would just not care what someone on a webboard (whom they have never met) thought they were "traditional" or not. Congrats on your cat. By the way, I would love to see the video.
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Congrats Buff. That sounds like a heck of a hunt.
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Marty, you had to know and your post about stewing over this one only confirms what you thought - this may not go over well. You must live with yourself, no one else. This was done legally by laws of South Africa and you chose to do it. Then who am I or anyone else for that matter to judge you!
The age old can of worms - ETHICS can not ever be legislated. The reason being that everyone on earth has a different set of ETHICS. I see this no different than shooting a mountain lion or bear out of a tree. I'm sure I've done things many a folk would consider not ethical as well. If it is legal, who am I to judge those doing it. The law says it's ok - enough said.
That said, it's not my bag. I'm a Life Member of SCI, past SCI Chapter President, past SCI Regional Rep and have become somewhat sickend by the prolific growth of high fence hunting and the promotion of trophies based on #'s. I still believe SCI is one of the greatest hunting/conservation organizations on earth.
I know for sure that hunting Africa's big five behind fences is not my thing. I know for sure I will never shoot a bear or lion out of a tree. But that is my choice, my ethical stand and may not be yours or anybody else's for that matter. I choose not judge you based on your choices. I understand that divided we will never beat the anti's. They love to read this kind of stuff where hunters face of with hunters.
In Canada we have 1.4 million hunters total. We cannot afford to be divided on any issue as we have in the past. All this does is allow the anti's to defeat us one small win at a time. Many of my US conterparts say it will never happen in US but don't kid yourselves.
I'm glad to see you had a good time in Africa and thanks for sharing your adventue.
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Buff,
First, I am very impressed with your bowhunting achievements. Congratulations on the lion. I have spent a lot of time in Africa and know that the difficulty and danger are very real.
Second, while I have hunted in African hunting concessions that were millions of acres, sometimes surrounded by millions more acres, none of which was fenced even between concessions, there is nothing small about a 5000 acre enclosure. That is about 8 square miles. A lot of hunters could not walk the perimeter of that area in a full day. It is a big area for a lion to roam around in and is as big as most whitetails' home territories.
Third, although anti-hunters may use the high fenced hunting as an argument to ban hunting, much of the hunting in parts of the U.S. is under those conditions, especially in such places as Texas. It is a reality of life, and the fact that such a place gave you the only opportunity to take a lion is certainly not your fault. There are many places, like islands, that present practical barriers to wildlife too, but we hunt those places regularly. I do not personally choose to hunt high fenced areas, but if that were my only choice to hunt a species that was important to me, and if the area was big enough and managed well enough to present a fair chase, I would definitely hunt there. Your hunt seems to have presented all those factors. In fact, hunting in areas where the game has been exposed to humans is often far more difficult than wide open hunting where the animals rarely see a human and can be approached fairly easily for a shot.
In summary, I am fine with your hunting ethic and applaud your determination to collect the "Big 5" with traditional equipment. In saying this, I do not have a problem with others expressing their concerns about the conditions under which we hunt or their concerns about anti-hunting people who would use our hunting methods against us. The concerns expressed here are a little ironic on this website, however, because anti-hunting groups often point to bowhunters (and especially trad bow hunters) as being the least ethical of any hunters since we use the most primitive equipment and have a relatively high non-lethal wound rate. Even though we don't like to admit it, trad bowhunters wound or miss animals at a significant rate. This can be confirmed just by reading the hunting stories here on TradGang. Certainly there were quite a few wounding shots and many misses at the Solana Ranch hunt that a number of TradGangers went on a few weeks ago. Such an outcome is not unusual in my experience over the years. I expect Ray sees a lot of that too. I know that a miss doesn't hurt anything, and animals often heal up fine after a non-lethal hit, but such things provide as much ammunition for anti-hunting groups as hunting in 5000 acre tracts. I wish we all had access to millions of acres of open hunting for all the species we hunt, but we don't. Life is full of compromises. I do understand completely the concerns by Ray and others of the slippery slope that we are on.
Buff, I hope I could get you to let me see the video of the hunt. I know it was exciting and very wild. African lions are no pussy cats!!!! Congratulations again.
Allan
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I forgot to mention that I was on the Solana Ranch hunt and made one of the non-lethal wounding shots, so I am not holding myself out as being immune from the same limitations of our equipment as any of the other fine bowhunters that came to Solana or who post here on TradGang. Missing and wounding game is an unpleasant fact of life when hunting with any weapon. (I see it happen with firearms too.) We just make things more challenging by using very primitive equipment.
Allan
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The most of those SA lions in farms are raised in a small fenced area (and basically hand fed) and then released for a client to shoot it. The new law proposes that lions need to be released at least two years before being hunted. In two years lions will kill a lot of expensive animals.
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Hunt It,
I'm going to have to apologize because I've heard that argument about "we all have to stick together" before, and I don't agree with it.
If someone is doing something that I KNOW is going to at some point infringe on or eliminate what I love to do, I'm going to speak out against it now, rather than later.
I see people who wax eloquently about how they do things the right way, but then there's that so and so neighbor of mine who jacklights deer, kills over the limit, keeps 20 bass every time he goes fishing.....
and they never say or do anything about it. They don't say anythign to him, and they don't call the law. And they see the guy bringing his kids up to do it the same way...and we typically don't do anythign about it.
This isn't so much a question of ethics as it is more a question of right or wrong.
It's WRONG to call killing animals inside an enclosure hunting, because its not. But the media will do it every time..and paint YOU AND ME with the same brush they paint the perps. Its the same thing that happens when some kid takes a bow and shoots a horse in the butt with an arrow- they call him a "hunter". Is he? Not in my book.
I'm not sitting idly by and waiting for "them" to ask me to explain the subtle difference- because that's what it will appear to be when they come for my bow- a subtle distinction that won't mean a hill of beans to the lawmakers.
It's a lot like trying to explain the difference between a crossbow and a longbow- people who don't use them don't SEE IT. They both shoot an arrow, don't they??? That's how they got crossbows in archery season in GA.
And if we keep allowing fenced enclosure hunting it's an explanation we'll have to try to make- and it will be too late then.
I certainly respect your right to feel as you do- but I also need to tell you I think you're wrong.
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Buff, maybe you should've swum to SA instead of flying in a plane or maybe eaten grub worms for breakfast instead of cereal.
Man, some of you guys are brutal. I think hunting is about having fun. Buff, I applaud you for "being a big kid playing in the woods." I enjoyed your story and your pictures. I'd love to see the video, too.
Thanks for being big enough to post this, even though it was evident you'd catch some heat.
P.S. 5000 acres is big enough that there's no guarantee of even seeing a lion....especially in rough terrain.
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TxAg,
What does how he arrived in SA or what he eats have to do with whether he hunted inside an enclosure or not?
Hunting, with a bow, is SUPPOSED to be about doing it with self-imposed limitations- fun, yes, but when we pick up a bow, then alter the rules like whether the game can escape or not, isn't that somewhat the same as trying to change your bow into a firearm?
I didn't start posting about this as a way to insult Buff...he and I are communicating privately.
There's a lot of people on this site reading this material who don't have a clue about Africa, or hunting in enclosures.
If one side, the "FUN" side is presented, and no one provides a foil to that, explaining the opposing view, are we doing anyone a real service? I don't like hijacking threads, but this is some serious stuff.
It isn't just affecting the hunter- this sort of thing plays into the future of our sport.
You don't think it does? Just keep your eye on the ball....wait and see.
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Ray, it's difficult to communicate effectively over the internet so let's just agree to disagree. I don't think you're totally off base, and my post wasn't meant to call you out specifically.
Anyway, no harm done...I wasn't trying to be rude, and I don't think you were either. I certainly don't want to hijack the thread. Carry on.
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TxAg, the "fun" is about to leave SA, as far as lions go. As DG2 mentioned, hunts for SA lions are for released cats that have been raised to be killed by paying shooters. When I was over there last August, there was a bemoaning of the fact that all these lions were being raised for no future purpose, and the "final solution" was to kill them and go do something else.
The guys in Namibia were starting to worry about the SA PH's invading Namibia to continue the process. I think they are a little ahead of the curve, though, because they banned leopard hunting with hounds, and because of empirical evidence, they may ban bowhunting for leopards in the near future.
Here in Idaho we have "Elk Farms". That would be "Estate Elk" for the SCI crowd. Get the money, then let the elk out of the horse trailer into the big pen if the shooter has a gun, into the long narrow pen if he/she has a bow. Might take an hour, but the bar is open back at the lodge. Video and pictures will be added to the tab.
Buff, sure wished you could have worked out a hunt for a lion in the wild. So be the political realm we live in.
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Hi Everyone,
Buff, weldone on your lion hunt. I hope everyone realises what an accomplishment this really was!
I found this a very interesting thread. I live in England now; but am from South Africa. I used to be a ranger and have also researched game farming intensively, as it is my dream to own a ranch big enough to hold the Big5. I have never bow hunted before, not for the lack of wanting to do so, but it's illegal to do so in the UK.
I would like to add my 2cents worth into this topic, as I feel people need to look at this from both sides of the fence, and hopefully my OPINION will reflect this.
First off, I think lion hunting should be allowed. If there was no lion hunting, then lions would be shot out in africa, except in National reserves, as private owners want something that brings in money. Lions would just eat the plains game, and reduce income, thus they would be deemed pests and shot. Lions are already in serious danger of dying out very quickly in Africa, as populations are so spread out with fences between them, that inbreeding is a serious problem, with imune systems being less able to fight off diseases. (HluHluwe Umfolozi +-100,000a, is an example, the lions are being born with allsorts of deformaties and dying of diseases that normally wouldn't effect lions). How you get around this, is swopping lions between reserves, and culling the sick/old ones, bringing in revenue. Which brings me back to just above with farmers killing lions as pests. Now if they had an incentive to keep lions, then they could swop them out and keep the populations healthy and the genes more diverse.
However, 5000a is about 2500hec (we work in hectares out there) and stocking a ranch with animals is all about LSU's (Large Stocking Units). Each species (HERBIVORE) is given a LSU (Zebra 0.5LSU dont quote me) and you can stock your farm according to its LSU capacity. So 100LSU stocking capacity means you can have say 200 zebras. From there they (Nature Conservation) see how many LSU's a carnivore would eat in a year, with a few more calculations and tell you if you can stock lions or cheetahs (I left leopards out, as they don't respect boundry fences). Now a farm in the Kalahari of say a certain size will have a lower LSU than a farm in Mpumulanga of the same size, due to rainfall and vegetation type. So working out whether a farm is big enough for a type of animal is more than how big the parimeter fence is and whether you can walk around it in a day or not. I am pretty certain that this farm that Buff hunted on would not pass Nature Conservations standards in size to keep lions free roaming (got total roam of the farm) on a permanent basis. This however wouldn't stop the outfitter from buying a lion a few weeks before the hunt, and letting it roam over the farm. This is what I suspect happened. It is not illegal to do this in South Africa, but soon will be. Where the lion came from, is a different question. I have visited a Lion breeding farm, where lions are sold off for hunting or to europe/asia/america as pets in private zoo collections. However, this lioness could've been acquired from a huge reserve where she was sold off due to age ect...
The nature of lions is such, that when you walk up to them they will not run like antelope do. I have got pretty close (10-15m) to lions without knowing that they were there. They then gave me a warning, and as a last resort ran. 9 out 10 times a lion wont attack until it is injured or seriously threatened! When they are shot, they normally head for the nearest thicket and lie up, as lions seldom run very far, 150-200m max, even when they are hunting prey, as they are very large and expend loads of energy doing so. So whether this was a 500a, 5000a or 50000a ranch, the lion would act in the same way.
So not to take away from Buff his accomplishment of standing 'toe-toe' with a lion and sorry Buff if this post seems to do so. This lion wasn't chained up and could've charged at any point in time. Lions cover a gap of 100 yards in about 3 1/2 seconds, so 40 yards barely gives enough time to even think of a shot!
Was this a canned lion hunt? You decide! Would the lion be bought specifically for a hunt? Yes! All lions shot in South Africa on a private outfitters ranch would be bought for the hunt! South Africa is pretty fenced in place and lions don't roam around free anymore! Leopards are a different story though.......
Thanks Pete
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Thanks for sharing your hunt with us!
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Buff
I have no problem with what you did. Sounds dangerous enough to me. I enjoyed the story, and the pics. I enjoy your website as well. Wish i had the oppurtunities you have!! I look forward to more of them. My only question is why is this thread allowed on Tradgang? I thought the rules were no threads allowed for animals killed in an enclosure no matter what the size?
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Originally posted by maxfit:
I thought the rules were no threads allowed for animals killed in an enclosure no matter what the size?
Can you show me where it says that in the rules please? Thanks.
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When I was in Africa in 2005 I saw first hand how fast a wounded lepard can cover ground (ureal blink of the eye stuff)and the fences I saw were certainly not animal proof! Amazing accomplishment (congratulations!)and thankyou for sharing, please post the video if you can get it worked out! Joseph
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never mind
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I live on about 3000 acres currently and I can tell you, that alone leaves WELL enough ground for the animal to have a very sporting chance of getting away. 2000 extra acres would even increase the area for the lion to roam around in. To me, it's a fair chase hunt if the animal has every opportunity to escape, or perhaps charge in this case, and 5000 acres should give the lion well enough room to do either without any problem at all.
Craig
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Terry
I think it said,no topics of canned hunts period, so far this dosn't look like a canned hunt. Nice hunt Buff, thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:
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If this post was removed, due to the hunt taking place in an enclosed (fenced) area, then every single post about hunting in South Africa would need to be removed! There are no more open areas where animals move freely in South AFrica. Certain antelope might jump fences (6-8ft) but that is about as free as they get. What varies, is the size of the fenced area. The farm this hunt took place on wouldn't be constituted as a canned hunt in South Africa. However, laws are about to be changed. I have now checked the exact acres to hectares calcs and this farm was about 2000hec. In future it would probably only be financially viable for an outfitter to have lions to hunt on a ranch of about 7000hec or more (17000acres). Reasons being a lion will need to be free roaming on a farm for 2 years before it can be hunted, and on a farm this size in this area, a single lion would probably eat 1/4 of the antelope on this farm. Thus making replacing the antelope more expensive than what profits on a lion hunt would be. So government are not making it illegal to hunt lions, just very difficult!
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This thread should not be removed- it expounds on both sides of the argument about the subject...and the overriding interest at TG has always been exchanging ideas and facts on subjects so people can be informed and make up their own mind.
Buff had what he believed was the best experience he could have- in fact, I suspect lion hunting for all practical purposes IS going to go away in future so he may have been grabbing at what might be an unattainable goal, I don't know, but some thought it was great, I and others expressed concerns- not so much about this particular hunt but of what implications the style of the hunt will have on the potentiality for future hunts -and the message sent by this and other similar hunts.
I think removing it would be more censorship than it would be adhering to the rules of the site.
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"I and others expressed concerns- not so much about this particular hunt but of what implications the style of the hunt will have on the potentiality for future hunts -and the message sent by this and other similar hunts."
Well put Ray . I have some reservations about the topic in general , not so much in Buff's particular hunt itself . I still have those same concerns but have learnt some new things sbout the situation in South Africa that don't alter my feelings towards anything " canned " but as to the financial/ecological considerations that may be affecting decision making in S.A.
Whilst as a sport , and perhaps more importantly a lifestyle for some of us , is under attack our discussion and debate is important within our own ranks . And no you can't police ethics or morals but without our self imposed guidelines , " other " people will certainly legislate against them .
Ben
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Interesting thread. I thought Buff did a great job laying out the parameters in his initial post. I was fascinated by the story. I don't know anything about lions or hunting in Africa. Frankly I was under the impression that most hunts over there were behind a game fence due to established game management practices, widespread poaching, and animals being considered a commodity.
A local guy just came back from a trip to Mexico where he reportedly paid $20,000 to kill a monster buck behind a high fence. That story turned me off completely. Perhaps it is the money, perhaps it is the fact that whitetails are abundant and readily available for fair chase, or perhaps it is the fact that I hunt whitetails by traditional means.
On the other hand, this story did not offend me and I am not sure why. Perhaps it is because I have enjoyed Buff's posts in the past and have formed a positive impression of him. Perhaps it is because I don't know anything about lion hunting. Perhaps it is because he outlined the process that he went through to secure an opportunity for hunting a lion which is something that was important to him and felt like this was his best opportunity.
I don't really agree with the recent trend to afford everyone the carte blanche opportunity to establish an individual code of ethics, but I think we should be very careful about applying regional or provincially based perspectives to world-wide scenarios. The barnyard references earlier in this thread are a prime example. Before I started frequenting tradgang I would have never imagined that camels, goats, donkeys, feral cattle and other such animals were hunted in other parts of the world.
Congratulations, Buff on taking your lion. The biggest trophy of the deal may be the conversation that has resulted.
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Way to go, buddy.... :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
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Buff had what he believed was the best experience he could have- in fact, I suspect lion hunting for all practical purposes IS going to go away in future so he may have been grabbing at what might be an unattainable goal,
Bingo.... That is what I love about this site. We can agree to disagree with out it turning nasty.
The best thing about this entire thread is that Ray thought he had a lead on a free range LIon. It did not pan out, like so many others I chased over the 3 years BUT he did find me someone that can set me up to hunt Elephant in 2011
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Buff ... off topic i know but where did you get that quiver ? it is beautiful .
Ben
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Originally posted by bmlongshot73:
Buff ... off topic i know but where did you get that quiver ? it is beautiful .
Ben
I had the back skin from a Zebra I shot in 2007. I took a quiver that I had bought from 3 rivers down to a local saddle shop for a pattern and had him make it for me. It was the first one he had ever done but it turned out nice
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thanks mate ,
Might have to get me to Africa and chasing zebra's then eh ?
And warthog , and impala and .....
BEN
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Pzee, you have put it all in perspective very eloquently, spot on in fact. Gregg also raised a very important point about applying local or regional perspectives to global situations. The simple truth is that SA is a fenced place. Most plains game ranches are large enough for this to be a non issue but will still need management. For what it's worth the Kruger park is 2,2 million hectares and they manage their game numbers. The bigger the area the harder to find and shoot the animal. Like wise most all game farms in SA will buy in stock to replenish numbers, this is a normal part of the industry. With the lion issue as Pzee says lions eat a lot, like a prime male can eat up to 25 percent of their own body weight at a sitting! Sustaining a lion until it is big enough to be a trophy thus becomes a huge expense, ergo lions are bought in shortly before the hunt and 'released' into whatever size area is acceptable. The lioness buff shot was certainly raised to be hunted. By the way the Pilanesberg game reserve has recently spent several million on restocking plains game to balance LSUs and to replace game eaten by their lions, they have also had to shoot out or remove about forty percent of those lions for the reasons Pzee said, too many and gene pool management. Pilanesberg is well over 100 000 acres.There is no free ranging game in SA in huntable numbers. This is not to say there are no 'hunting opportunities' in SA. There are and the many thousands of successful hunts held here every year are testament to that. Yes they take place on a game farm, but that is not like shooting game in a corral, there is a difference. I would not shoot a lion personally but that is my own choice. I am not a trophy hunter and I hunt for meat.
chrisg
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Lot of good points brought forward on this one. Every one of us has a different opinion of what is ok and not. Many years ago, I harvested wild boar in Michigan and Ontario on preserves with high fences around them. We never called it hunting but rather reffered to it as harvesting good BBQ meat and a good time for the guys over a weekend. I do not consider killing inside enclosed areas of any size as hunting and that's my own standard. In many parts of the world the only hunting that exists is on private reserves/conservancies/ranches the game in many cases is free ranging and not enclosed. So don't judge all fancy ranches as high fenced because not all are. The high fence debate has gone on for years and will never end in my opinion. How big a piece of land is ok? What species are ok on what size of property? What type of fence is ok and what is not? Each must be their own judge and set our own standards. What if I invite you to an island 10 miles offshore off Africa to hunt lions. Island is six miles long three miles wide just crawling with lions, no fences just wild lions. You coming??? Tell me what the difference is between that and a ranch in S. Africa six miles long and three miles wide with a fence around it??? Tough one eh! Only you can decide for your self.
Mr. Ray,
The things you mention your neighbour/others doing as far as I can see are all illegal activities and I'd be the first to turn in the offender myself. Marty's hunt was not illegal by any terms. Not your thing, not my thing but not illegal. My point is that everyday people pursue and kill game in many ways that might not be ok in everyone's eyes. You have probably chased hogs with dogs and a knife at some point - I have. Many in our ranks would see this somewhat barbaric and disgusting if they saw what happened. The bunny huggers would castrate us for it quite proudly. My point being is that I made the choice to do it and forced no one to come along. I only have to live with myself for my actions. Marty's a big boy and I don't think anyone made him do this. He would not have done it if it was not something he could live with. We may not all see it as ok, but he was well within the law and his right to do so, so why speak negativly of it? I know there is many fine Trad Gang members that have hunted Mt. Lion and shot one out of a tree. Not my thing but I wilst not judge them based on those actions and hope they not judge me based on killing a hog with a knife! It is sufficient I believe to state it's not your thing.
As for the united point. I have heard the 2nd Amendment argument and the hunting rights argument from my US friends way too many times. Let me tell you, coming from a bigger country with less people and way less hunters than USA. Stand divided and you will be conquered sooner or later my friend. Been there done that seen it and lost it my friend. Don't kid yourselves the antis out number all of us any day of the week. Don't ever forget that, please.
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Wow what a story! Way to go!
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Huntit,
I didn't intend for the use of the anecdote about not dealing with neighbors transgressions to imply this was illegal- although it likely will be in the future it's not today.
What I meant for people to take away from that was that its our responsibility to speak up- this isn't a question of ETHICS- its a question of whether we will CONTINUE to be able to hunt.
If you get nothing else from my conversations understand THIS- we are a fringe group- ALL HUNTERS. Anti hunters are a fringe group- the 80% in the middle don't mind us at the moment- but they do NOT see fine distinctions like 80 acres vs 500 acres vs 5000 acres. Hunting inside a fence that covers 50000 acres won't be seen any differently than one that surrounds 50 when these people who will get to decide our future are given the choice of voting for us to keep hunting or to be stopped.
I will NOT stand united with anyone who thinks we can continue checking animals off a list by any means legal (helicopter, vehicles, fenced hunts)and not eventually pay the price- probably not ME, and maybe not YOU- but certainly my grandkids will be forced to.
Expediency, for any reason, is the antithesis of what we should be about. Doing it the hard way isn't just a slogan for some boob on TV- it's the real deal, buddy. If that's not what we're about then the only people we are fooling is ourselves.
I had a trip scheduled to Africa 3 years ago, to an 80 square mile fenced operation. I told everyone I canceled because of the economic situation to avoid offending some by stating the real reason- cowardice on my part.
I canceled the trip and lost my deposit because I couldn't reconcile my belief that fences are not good for the future of hunting in general and certainly for those of us who say we're doing it the hard way.
We're supposed to be more concerned about "HOW" we get it done, than "WHETHER" we get it done- right?
Killing something with a firearm would be the dullest thing going for someone who has taken game with a bow. Why would this be any different.
Sort of like a baseball record, on steroids.
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Buff, great hunt and you should be proud of your hunt.
I don't call 8 square miles a canned hunt by any means. That cat could have run for miles.
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Congrats!!!
We all gotta stick together!!
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Terry
pm sent..
Thanks
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First off Congrats Marty.... This post really has me thinking....I have a chance to move to Texas.
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Well done Marty, She certainly is a beautiful specimen! Good debate everyone, as Pzee and ChrisG said - Lion hunting isn't illegal yet, just much much harder for the farm owners to setup. Not only is keeping a Lion for two years expensive but think of the license fee's etc... Lions are definatly struggling to survive in Africa in comparatively small pockets of land separated, not only physically but genetically. Me thinks they (Lions) are going the way of the Dodo - hopefully not in our lifetime.
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Some interesting points
Originally posted by gregg dudley:
I don't know anything about lions or hunting in Africa. Frankly I was under the impression that most hunts over there were behind a game fence due to established game management practices, widespread poaching, and animals being considered a commodity.
Gregg im impressed.
Ray your right in the point that hunters did bring it upon themselves i should have worded that differently. But i think you misunderstand the fence issues in Southern Africa.
What im not worried about here is what one guys thinks is Right over the next guy, "Ethics".
What im concerned about is the Welfare and sustainable future of our environment and wildlife, in this particular thread, Lions! And in Rays case the effect it will have on our future as hunters.
some facts
There are more animals, Across the board (Bar a few) in Southern Africa today, then there have ever been! Why?
My Concern is that if lion hunting is no longer, lions are no longer! lions are there now because they have a value to the farmers/landowners, if its starts costing them more in eaten game then in trophy fees there will be no incentive to have them on the property's, and the numbers will decline quickly. I may not agree with it but i know whats keeping their numbers there.
The fenced Issue i find interesting in the way people understand, probably because most of the guys have never even been to Southern Africa or had any hands on involvement with the issues, challenges in land ownership and management faced out there! What i also find interesting is how this Lion Topic has raise questions and concerns over all the other posts on Africa.
Southern Africa is fenced…ALL OF IT!!! And most of the plains game shot in regards to bowhunters, are shot out of hides, over water holes or feed… why has this been painted different? if it was in a Tiny "pen", sure! but with the farms as big as some of them are over there i don't see your argument. As for the point on Animals being 'easier to kill' on a Big fenced property out there, your mistaken!
the reason there is MORE game now then there has ever been is because of fences and because the game has a value, you also cannot compare the fact that South Africa is fenced compared to your Countries, they are very different! You know that.
"There are more huntable species in South Africa than any other Country"!!!, consider that.
Not only is just the wildlife so diverse, there is a huge complicated fragile relationship within the ecosystem and its even more fragile relationship with man. A lot of the issues you could not even comprehend in the States or Australia because they do not exist for you. And im happy you do not have to fence everything.
How many Antelope species do you have in your continent?
Africa has 71 last time I checked, Thats antelope species alone! Not to mention the huge rage of predators that prey upon them, how about large destructive populations of people that poach? Cut down every tree for firewood, have NO sustainable management mindset. The Fences are not just there to keep the animals in, they are there to protect the wildlife and environment, fences are there because hunters have given our wildlife a value and they are willing to put the money on the table for it, and therefore given land owners the incentive to protect them, without fences the high population of game WOULD NOT EXSIST! Governments are different, laws are different, people are different and the management challenges we face between Man, the Animals and the Habitat are far more complex then those of other countries.
Its like there's higher than thou conscience thats getting pushed, the world is not perfect we have what we have and we'r working with it.
Our family has been involved in Wildlife management, Grassland science and Sustainable habitat management for generations, in South Africa, the situation there is what it is, we have to work with what we have.
There is a Lot of things that i don't agree with as far as hunting across the world, but iv put aside "perfect world" and swallowed it for the "real world"
And work with what we have now knowing the alternatives we have are far more destructive.
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If that cat has claws, teeth and lived by catching and eating live critters in the fenced area, that's a wild animal. Nice Lion Buff.
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I guess we're going to leave it here, Andy.
I am unconcerned about what is legal
I don't care about antelope and how many we have, or how great the wildlife programs are and how well they've done at keeping species alive and vibrant.
All of that is irrelevant to my concern.
Apparently I am incapable of enough eloquence to get my point across, so beyond this I'll not comment longer because I will begin to sound like a broken record.
There are other countries in Africa where lions do roam free and prior to right now a hunt in one of those countries could have been planned- right at the moment even there we now see restrictions on them....in fact, the restrictions are due to OVERHARVEST causing a lack of adult lions, according to the PH's I am talking with.
What I am saying is that at some point we must begin deciding that just because the law doesn't rule something out, we still ought to think twice about doing it.(it makes no difference if your only intent is for the fence to keep poachers out- it STILL keeps animals inside)
The subtle distinctions we are very comfortable with will be LOST in the minds of non-hunters. To them, a fence is a fence- and they understand what fences do- they keep things out AND they keep things in. Just ask any dog owner(we have 90 million dog owners in this continent and they'll tell you- you idjit, the fence keeps my dog from running off!)
Bear baiting does make sense to us- if your goal is to make certain you are not killing a female with cubs and that's typically the reason for baiting.
Chasing mountain lions with dogs makes sense to us- beyond the fact you'd probably never SEE a mt lion on foot by yourself within shooting range with a bow- it also allows you to selectively take the males or older specimens or pull your dogs off and go to another track.
But lions being bred in an enclosure for one purpose- to be killed- by being thrown into another enclosure a few days weeks or months prior to the "hunt" happening- does that sound like what we ought to be about, whether its legal or not?
There was a guy who was going to fence in areas around resorts all over the country, bring in "celebrity" hunters to kill the bucks on TV on a circuit, and have a NASCAR or PGA for buck hunting- he even talked about using darts and releasing the deer when people began raising concerns.
The outcry here was amazing. How much different are these penned lion hunts than what this fellow was attempting to do here in the states? the only thing missing are the bleachers and live cams.
If success is the only thing that drives us, how do we reconcile that with limiting our ability to take game by using a weapon with strict limitations?
Remove fair chase and we begin down a road that will eventually lead to a place not many of us will recognize or like.
what we do individually affects us all. Because the world is truly a "global village" now, what happens in the far reaches of Australia can have an impact on what happens here, or in England- anywhere.
Yes, our individual circumstances are different- It's very interesting to me that in America our forefathers were able to revitalize our wildlife-in the face of the same issues you have in Africa- subsistence hunting and market hunting- WITHOUT the use of fences.. It can be done.
"the true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." - Saxton Pope
I respect your right to feel the way you do- but I think in the long run its the wrong direction if our goal is for those who comes after us to enjoy the same privilege we have- to go afield and chase animals with stick and string- 'with a heart for any fate.'
Good hunting to all of you.
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
I guess we're going to leave it here, Andy.
"according to the PH's I am talking with"
I respectfully agree we should leave it here, we'r not going to get anywhere constructive here with that.
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There have been quite a few differing intelligent points and questions raised and answered here. Well done guys on keeping it fairly civil! Especially on such a touchy subject.
For me hunting is very personal. As I have evolved in my pursuit and love of the outdoors, so have some of my tactics and choices. I think that we should all be free to seek and find what is right for each of us.
The Buff that I "know" through his writings, book, and forum participation has always shown himself to be a fun-loving responsible outdoorsman. A man that can tell a great story, yet never grandizes himself as some conqueror of nature. I appreciate Buff sharing his adventure. I look forward to the next one!
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I think tradtusker and kestimator made two very good posts....much better than I could've said it.
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Originally posted by killinstuff:
If that cat has claws, teeth and lived by catching and eating live critters in the fenced area, that's a wild animal. Nice Lion Buff.
That's the issue. Not the fence itself. As stated, almost all of SA is fenced. Large areas.
The problem a lot of people have with these lions is that they are raised in pens, fed donkey pieces and game farm meat, then driven out and released at the hunting area a week prior to the hunt. I don't have a problem with it as long as the hunter knows what he is getting into. I think it's safe to say that most do.
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I know a few guys who have shot lions in SA. Shots were taken from 8-9 yards. Talk about wild animals!
Regarding this fence issue, the smallest fenced area I have hunted was propably 3-4 acres and it was impossible to get close to animals. Difficultness is really not an argument to justify anything in this case.
Over the years I think have seen all possible (unethical to me) hunting practises. Most people just want to shoot something, and I have never critized anybody doing this as long as they know what they are doing. Just not my thing.
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well it has run 6 pages deep and never turned Nasty. It makes me proud to be part of this site.
Some liked the story others didn't but nobody started bashing each other. Ray didn't care for my hunt but still took the time to help me set up a Elephant hunt. Great folk hanging out here
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:eek: :eek: :notworthy: :eek: :eek:
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Yep, great comment, Marty! It actually generated a good discussion, and was quite educational, too. All the very best to you when you hunt that ele! Cheers, Ben
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Congrats on the lion Buff!
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I have mixed feelings about hunting behind fences. I have hunted high fenced exotics here in Texas because I will never be able to hunt these animals in their native areas.
I have not hunted whitetails behind game fences because I can readily hunt them else where.
I try to hunt large acrages to make the hunt fair chase. Some believe that any sized fence is too small. I remember a similiar discussion years ago on this site where someone was against hunting behind fences no matter the size. He did however have no problem hunting on an island so go figure.
I fully understand the way that the antis use high fences against us but I have a problem caving in to them even on this issue though I wish we could determine how small an area has to be and how wild an animal has to be to be considered a "canned" hunt.
Buff's cat had 5000 acres to escape in. Buff's cat had real teeth and claws. There appears to have been no other way for him to full fill his dream. All I have to say it congratulations and good luck in your future hunts. Take care. Mike.
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Mike,
the difference between a fenced piece of ground and an island is that the game is free to swim across and go somewhere else any time they like- deer, pigs, even buffalo have no problem crossing wide expanses of water- fresh, or salt- in search of safety or food.
An animal inside a fence? Especially one bred in a smaller enclosure and then released into the larger one specifically for the purpose of getting killed? They're not getting out.
I can certainly understand why the gentleman in your example had no trouble making that distinction.
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Marty, that's a beautiful lion! Congrats!
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
Mike,
the difference between a fenced piece of ground and an island is that the game is free to swim across and go somewhere else any time they like- deer, pigs, even buffalo have no problem crossing wide expanses of water- fresh, or salt- in search of safety or food.
that is a joke right!!!!! I hunt with some guys that lease 800 acres of high fence and 1700 that is high fenced in texas every year they see tons of bucks that have never been seen from before, 5000 acres high fence is plenty to be considered a non canned hunt, the animsl was not in a pen where you could see it the whole time and shoot it from the other side of the fence. Also he mentions there were other lion tracks so that means this lion probably wasnt placed in the pen the day before.
I guess if you cant legally get a permit to hunt free roaming lions with a recurve then we should all just forget our dreams because no matter if we fenced in africa it would still be a canned hunt..... Hey they wouldn't be able to swim to south america and find food and saftey!!!!! You guys crack me up!!!
Congratulations buff on a great HUNT!!!! Hope to see you at chester.
Brandon
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No, its not a joke.
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
[QB] Mike,
the difference between a fenced piece of ground and an island is that the game is free to swim across and go somewhere else any time they like- deer, pigs, even buffalo have no problem crossing wide expanses of water- fresh, or salt- in search of safety or food.
I understand where you are coming from Ray, but the island he was speaking of was Hawaii. He stated that he would not hunt a fenced in area NO MATTER THE SIZE. Whether the fence is a fence or the Pacific it is still a fence........
I spoke to a guy once that was hunting a piece of public land outside of Chicago. He said that the game comission counted 35 or so deer there. The deer were basically land locked between strip centers and housing developments. There are many kinds of fences and many shades of gray......
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Mike,
I thought we were having a serious discussion.
If someone told you they thought it would be a good idea to jump off the golden gate bridge you'd think they were nuts.
Why then would you listen to and consider someone serious who would tell you they'd NOT hunt an island larger than 3 of our New England states put together because they thought the OCEAN was a fence???
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That's a grat story and a beautiful Widow to go with it.
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Originally posted by hunt it:
As for the united point. I have heard the 2nd Amendment argument and the hunting rights argument from my US friends way too many times. Let me tell you, coming from a bigger country with less people and way less hunters than USA. Stand divided and you will be conquered sooner or later my friend. Been there done that seen it and lost it my friend. Don't kid yourselves the antis out number all of us any day of the week. Don't ever forget that, please.
Prime example is the spring bear hunt that we should be doing in a couple of months, yet that got banned due to lobbying i belive. I feel lucky to live in an area where i have free access to thousands of acres of free public land.
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Originally posted by Mike Brown:
Buff's cat had 5000 acres to escape in. Buff's cat had real teeth and claws. There appears to have been no other way for him to full fill his dream. All I have to say it congratulations and good luck in your future hunts. Take care. Mike.
Thats exactly my sentiment too. This wasn't a 5 acre zoo exhibit. 5000 acres is alot for that cat to escape or not be seen all day. Just my two cents
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WOW...awesome job...congrats on an achievement. GREAT JOB!!
(can I say it again?)
WOW...totally awesome, great video!! Congrats!!
BTW, I cannot believe you complained about being an inch off of where you were aiming..........
it was a lion at 40 yards.......... :scared:
Awesome shot!!(s)
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awesome story
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Very Cool BUFF!!!! I can only imagine.. WOW!
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great hunt marty
lammie is a friend of mine
he came over and went gear hunting with me in arkansas
had a good hunt and he got his first black bear that hunt
he wanted me to set with him and we both got a bear that afternoon
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WOW....great story !
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:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
But lions being bred in an enclosure for one purpose- to be killed- by being thrown into another enclosure a few days weeks or months prior to the "hunt" happening- does that sound like what we ought to be about, whether its legal or not?
Isn't that essentially what we do with stocked trout streams? I understand Ray's point but the thing I don't agree with Ray is that his position is essentially one of retreat. We are letting people who, he admits, have no real understanding of what we do or the circumstances surrounding what we do decide our fate. I would rather we inform the general public, much like Mr. Bear did, about all the aspects of hunting, even the sad realities that sometimes force us to forgo the IDEAL, such as the many circumstances Andy has mentioned. Remember, at one time bowhunting was not considered humane and an effective way to hunt. It took ambassadors of the sport, like Fred Bear, to inform the public and not only convince them it was fair and "ethical" but also inspired a lot of people to actually take up the sport. I'd rather take an offensive position then a defensive position because on defense we will still lose our rights by degrees regardless of what we do because those who oppose us want no compromise and nothing we do will meet with their satisfaction except the total abolishment of hunting and eventually ownership of weapons.
Great story Buff. Congrats.
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Very interesting reading to say the least.
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Talondale,
I never saw a fence in any of Fred's hunting film.
Fair chase is the ONLY way to hunt- PERIOD. End of sentence.
I'm sorry to be so blunt- but you are wrong. And you know I don't imply any disrespect- you,me and all the guys on this site, almost without exception, are all sympatico or we would not be doing it with stickbows.
You could tell the 80% who don't hunt and are NOT anti-hunters all day -that hunting inside an enclosure- be it 10 acres or 1000 acres- is OK, and you'll not get any sympathy from them on that subject.
And that will be the end of fair chase hunting in the end if we take that tack. Because they hold the fate of our activity in THEIR hands...you and anyone else who believes that we should support hunting behind enclosures because its hunting are making the job of the idiots on the other side easier.
You ever seen those funny commercials where the kid that's already in the room doesn't get ice cream but the kid that walks in the door gets some-Even kids know its wrong...... is the tag line.
That's kind of the answer here.
Instinctively, the majority in the middle will go with their gut and say "this is wrong". Because the image they get in their heads will be what they are spoonfed by the media- and believe me- it won't be Buff's movie- it will be one where the fence is very obvious, and the animal is back ed up into it, and then shot-probably seven times with a gun.
Whether you or I like it or not our fate isn't in our hands...its in the hands of non hunters, and this is a guaranteed LOSE position.
Buff and I have spoken at length "off camera" and I've assisted him in hopefully finding what he needs for a fair chase elephant. I'm betting instead of doing what he did on this lion if he'd said "help" we'd have likely been able to find him somehting for lion too. We'll not know for sure...but I would have given it my all to have kept this from being here.
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Here kitty, kitty...
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Sorry for the delay in response Ray. I understand what you are saying and agree that the media will determine what kind of image they see - IF we let them. We are only in this position because generations of people have taken a passive, mind-my-own-business, approach to this. How is it that the media has become 99% liberal? How is it that Hollywood, that once blacklisted communist sympathizers, is now mostly marxist, socialist, treehuggers? We yielded the field. Yes it's a sad truth that in some areas only fence hunts are allowed. Well, rather than try to ignore that fact, or accept it, fight back. Inform the public why their knee-jerk emotional based political pressure leads to stupid policies. Use their own methods to appeal to their sentiments and suggest a better way. Put it in their face that if they continue to support ignorant policies based on a Disneyfied concept of nature that the animals will suffer and possibly go extinct because in reality most people don't care about the animals unless there's a monetary value attached. I just saw a stupid commercial last night for the Nissan Leaf where a polar bear travels thousands of miles to hug the owner of an electric car! That's the kind of stupidity we're dealing with. I know it may seem pollyannaish and I accept that sometimes raw facts, like carrying capacities, finances, and other things, are going to sometimes trump the ideal but we can't continue to only do what's right on an individual basis and hope things turn out alright. Sometimes we have to go beyond, we have to push back. Yes, police our own ranks, yes, be involved in game law decisions, yes hunt as ethically and humane as we can as individuals but minding our own house won't be enough. When Fred started the majority would have gone with their gut and said that bowhunting was inhumane, archaic, barbaric, and impracticle. Modern weaponry was the only way a gentleman should pursue game. But he made an effort to inform the public. Maybe rather then selling products our hunting videos should be selling our ideals. All of which has nothing to do with Buff's hunt directly but I hate to see a shrinking segment of hunters just hold to their ideals while their way of life is outlawed. The other reality is that fair chase may not be an option for certain species. Will countries be willing to let large, huntable populations of predators roam their country free just so a handful of Foreigners can come chase them in an ideal setting? Ranchers will demand compensation for lost livestock or will resort to poaching. At some point the government will have to balance rancher/general population needs with the cost effectiveness of maintaining these lions and they will decide that either the lion isn't worth it or the price will be so high that only a handful of well financed hunters will have the opportunity. Is it better that only 6 (random number) hunters get a chance to hunt a free range lion each year and the number of lion is just enough to say they are there? or do we try for a synthesis of the two? Controlled populations in isolated (fenced) areas where they are allowed to be hunted but their numbers are maintained through careful management, much like the stocked trout stream example I mentioned. The trout are raised in small controlled areas to maximize reproduction and released into wild streams. Is the trout truely wild? Is it ethical to fish for them? Do fish that have been artificially feed have a chance to avoid the lures of the fisherman? It would be great if all the Eastern streams had trout jumping out of them but the realities of fishing pressure and natural limits (warm season water) means that can't happen. Should we therefore forego stocking streams and only catch the limited brook trout that are native and viable in small locations and limit the number of licenses so that the select few only pursue a pristine experience?
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Buff-what a great story! sounded like excellent shooting to me!! good job!
Kennyb
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I need to get to africa. Way cheaper and sounds like more fun than $30,000.00 for a Ram in Canada and Alaska.
I should be able to get more munting time for $30,000.00
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definitely ,interesting points of view. I'm not against fenced in hunts in africa as long as the game is wild and the acreage large. The debate could be what is a sufficient amount of land .definitely against the hunts where lions purchased from zoos are placed in tiny enclosures to be slaughtered.I've seen a hunting show in the us where the deer can be purchased by size and priced accordingly. The deer pics are shown with a man holding the deer by the antlers with the corresponding price for each deer.So ,obviously the deer was drugged and placed for a pic.meanwhile in other states, huge enclosures are not meant to keep deer in, but to keep deer out.Quality management on20,000. plus acres. I can't see the fences disappearing, it's a matter of legislated what is ethical ,and who decides that?
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You'll find a ram for much less than $30,000 in Canada or Alaska. The difference is you'll be sold a HUNT not a sheep. In real hunting there are no guarantees.
the chef
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I never assumed there were guarantees calgary. Don't want one. But you will have to point me to a hunt that your talking about. I have been saving a while for this one.
On topic, are you refering to the lion hunt?
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nice story and results, what a pretty lion.
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Originally posted by USN_Sam1385:
From what I have read here the process kinda goes like this:
1. A lion cub is born.
2. Lion cub is fed and raised in a cage until it is big.
3. Game ranch sells a lion hunt to a wealthy man who can afford to kill this animal.
4. Game ranch buys lion and has it shipped to them prior to the hunt.
5. Game ranch drives wealthy man to where lion is and lets him shoot at it with his bow. If that doesn't work, they shoot it with high powered rifles.
6. Wealthy man gets pictures and videos of the kill.
Yep, that's pretty much it.
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Great stuff buff!
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Originally posted by USN_Sam1385:
If I can't eat it I won't kill it. Can you think of any species besides humans that kills for pure fun? I'm sure there might be a few, but I sure can't think of any.
Do some research on Wolves. They hunt for sport all the time. Ask the folks out in the west or Alaska how often they come across multiple Elk or Moose killed by wolves and not eaten.
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Most predators do at times.
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I had no idea. "wow"
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There is a big difference between hunting plains game behind a fence and the hunting of an apex predator. Plains game operations may supplement feed in some circumstances but it is seasonal at best. Canned lions are fed commercial pet food. It is the only economical way to get them to a "harvestable" age. Do the math using figures published from SA game auctions. Take the cheapest animal and figure the "need to feed" over a four-six year period. You will quickly see this is as far from a natural situation. I am not discounting the challenge and danger involved; just pointing out what is really involved in creating the opportunity.
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I have a couple of the pictures from this hunt as wallpaper on my work computer.
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Ray Hammond is SPOT ON! Thanks for taking the time to post so many good observations, Ray.
We must hold ourselves to a higher moral standard, regardless of current legality. We must do a better job at communicating with non-hunters. We need non-hunters to understand that hunting is about the outdoor experience and about appreciating wildlife, not about the trophy kill.
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Outstanding,a dream hunt to say the least.
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We need non-hunters to understand that hunting is about the outdoor experience and about appreciating wildlife
While I agree with the bolded, hunting is also about having fun. As a matter of fact, that's my first priority when I go hunting....making sure it's an enjoyable experience.
In my mind, hunters judging other hunters is petty and detrimental...much worse than a non-hunter doing the same.
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Great story! Awesome animal! Congrats!
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Congrats on your trophy Buff!!
Brand new to the site, but not new to bow hunting, including African bow hunting.
Lots of good debate on this lengthy thread, and that is what stimulates thought. :)
Several less than accurate comments though pertaining to hunting in RSA.
While much of RSA hunting is fenced, not all of it is.....this includes lion hunting. BTW, despite worries, lion hunting is still going on in RSA. Who knows for how much longer though?
I have seen a bunch of fences in RSA, and they have all been roughly 8' tall. I have watched 1,800lb. Eland walk up to a fence and easily launch up and over. Same with Kudu. Oddly, Impala cannot seem to get that done. Lion and leopard are not slowed much by a fence of that size.
Anyway, again, congratulations Buff, and a great job of sharing the adventure.
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TxAg,
I completely disagree with your remarks. It's neither prejudicial nor petty to insist that fair chase is the right way to hunt.
Your position is- that because someone says they're a hunter- no one else who hunts can then offer critical comments about what they're doing without being petty? Really?
Judgement and decisions have already been made by nonhunters in SA which will affect all of us- as a result of the actions of a few.
If you do something and keep it to yourself- that's essentially your business. I haven't yet seen a thread titled 'if you hunt inside a fence you're a BIG JERK'.
These comments are the result of a post on the web- to which some say things like WELL DONE, YOU GO BOY, and the like- and that will be seen by some among us as an example of something to aspire to.
Remember, many today don't have a family tradition of hunting to rely on for development of a hunting ethic, character, and a sense of right and wrong when it comes to the outdoors.
If they read it-they will often follow the example of others- unless a counterpoint is presented. How less valid is 'I think it was a mistake' than an 'attaboy'?
If those of us who don't feel it is something to be admired, and we don't say anything, we should then rightly be called petty and detrimental.
Hunting lions inside a fence was THE MAJOR PRETENSE used by non hunters in SA government to restrict lion hunting, and perhaps eliminate it. Right or wrong- what difference does it make when the decisions have been made- by the very people we will need to look to later to protect other hunting rights.
Buff began a near apology when he started his post- he KNEW that it would be seen critically by many and relayed that premonition in his post.
And again, I'm not picking on Buff- Buff didn't create fenced hunting for lions.
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Well put Ray to say the least.
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I will say for one my eyes have been opened to a whole new hunting "industry" I knew nothing about. Sometimes when you think you know something you are more dangerous than if you just admit you're ignorant.
I am just a dumb country boy that's hunted deer, pigs and anything else around. Never behind a fence. Don't get me wrong I know people do it and enjoy it. My personal feelings, it should be called grocery shopping with a stick or gun.
I recently looked into taking my son to Africa for a hunt. Got lots of good info, videos etc..
One of the places sends e-mails with specific animals with price list attached. I don't mean for the species, I mean for the specific animal.
I would rather shoot a doe on public land here in NC than pay someone to parade a specific animal in front of me.
My wife is not a anti-hunter (obviously or she would not be my wife) but she does give me an outsiders perspective. Before we met she never knew anyone that hunted. She has taken the hunter safety course and enjoys going with me now. She watches the hunting shows with me and always asked what skill did that person just show by killing that animal. Most of the time I am embarrassed to say "they made the shot" because that is usually all they did. They did not scout, find, make the set-up, pattern the animal, call them in or anything. They just went where the guide told them to and executed the shot. That is not hunting to me.
Most, if not all of the Africa hunts are sitting at a water hole or over bale of hay. After watching some of these I feel I could do the same thing back home on the farm in PA. Just shoot the cows when they come into feed. Watching these videos with someone that is new to hunting really taught me a lesson. I like to EARN my kill, not just pay for it.
I will admit Ray's position seemed very hard at first but I admit I really was ignorant about this issue. Thanks Ray.
PS Buff, no disrespect to you. I love watching your videos, you made a heck of a shot and showed a lot of nerve.
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I lived in Africa for a few years. Since I have moved back to the states I have always wanted to go back and go bow hunting on a safari. This was a great story. I don't think I would be able to shoot a lion, they are just too majestic to me. I would like to go for some other species though.
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Certainly, the king of beasts. Your story made me feel I was there.
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out standing
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WOW, Amazing......
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What a thread. Regardless of where the animal was killed I still think it is cool to see a pic of that animal taken with traditional equipment. As far as the rest of the thread....no comment.
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That is one heck of a story. I love those German Kinetics!
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GREAT story and pics! Lion with a Recurve... I am green with envy! That must have got the blood pumping hot & fast. Thank you for sharing Sir!
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great story and hunt! Congrats!
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That story was really inspiring