Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Dark Continent => Topic started by: Daniel Oz Locke on April 07, 2014, 07:25:00 AM
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Hi all.
I have a 33 pound recurve that is very old (20 years) and I was wondering if it could take impala or warthog?
Cheers
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Hi Daniel,
I wouldn't chance it, esp warthog. Theses animals are tough. As usual a sharp broad head is what is needed with perfect shot placement, but a 33# is a bit light. Rather build up to a 45 to 50.
Thanks
Peter
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How you are going Daniel? Looks like you are all fired up now for Nam!! No I think 50#@28" + heavy FOC arrows + razor sharp 2 blades would be the bare minimum. Their skin might be lighter than Aussie Hog but these critters are Tough. Even when hit in the boiler room they still travel a fair bit and hopefully they (warthog) dont go underground!
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Hi Siewho and all other trad shooters.
It's great to have a response and some variable answers too.
Once I work out how to post pics I will. I was thinking that now the minimum can be as low as 30 pound with an efficient recurve, say a Das or Widow.
The reason I say this is last year I witnessed both impala and warthog taken with a 33 pound recurve which was mine but I sold to a friend for $30. (this post was just to grab attention)
The reason for the the success (my thoughts at least) was in the arrow setup. It was a combination of a Eastern Aftermath 500 and a Zwickey delta 228 grain. The total arrow weight was 480 grain and had some really good FOC. Although the shots were not pass troughs, the broadhead did pass all the way through and come out the other side.
I think skinny shafts like the Victory and Easton products have a huge advantage it gaining penetration over shear arrow weight. Arrow weight is very important and should not be overlooked when making an arrow set, but reducing the flesh resistance of the projectile (the arrow)is important too. I have always believed that the reason for arrow momentum is to overcome the penetrating resistance.
All that a side, bring on Namibia. What will I be shooting? 50 pound recurve, 2216 super slams and Tusker Javelin with 75grain steel inserts (200 grains)I will leave the 30 pound stuff until I win a world indoor championship!
Warthogs Siewho? you and I have both seen those thing run with a non functional heart!
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Do these animal deserve such a disrespect to be bowhunted with 33# bow?
Assuming 28" draw length from an old recurve and Dacron string, shooting a 480 gr arrow is 15,5 gpp. Arrow speed will be somewhere in the 140-145 fps max and most probably lower than that, meaning less than 23 ft # in KE and a ridiculous momentum of 0.308.
According to regulations In Namibia it is illegal to hunt even a dassie with that bow.
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Hi Hybridbow Hunter
Very true that the KE and M ratings are very low and they will not be legal in Namibia. The animals were shot in Zimbabwe last year and we are very fortunate to have no bow KE or M requirements.
The impala made about 80 yards of leaps and bounds before falling flat. The heard was very skittish at the time and we were expecting all animals to make some distance due to this.
One good resource to look at is the Victory Archery website video of the tests between 2 very high quality arrows and a Victory VAP which has a smaller shaft diameter than the others. The VAP penetration is a lot more than the others and from the same bow. So in order to achieve the same penetration from all arrows, the shooter could drop the poundage of the bow for the VAP arrow. By how much? I don't know but I guess a starting point would be 10 pounds less.
Momentum is an important figure in bowhunting but momentum itself is purely a mathematical calculation that does not incorporate any measurements of the actual resistance of the arrow on contact and passing through the animal. A good example is shooting a bird with a largish bird blunt and also doing the same again with the same weight broadhead. The blunt will bounce off more or less due to a high resistance level on contact. The broadhead will pass through due to its much lower resistance on contact. (cutting through feather and flesh) But lets not forget that both arrows have the same momentum and a similar KE.
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Talking about Namibia, I have just found that a Easton Aftermath 340 at 29in and 300 grain up front shoots well from my 50 pound recurve take down (the one I plan to use when I travel). FOC is about 24% and total weight is about 600 grain.
What do you guys think with a 300 grain tusker aztec? I am planing on heartbeest and warts.
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For me personally... I don't know why anyone would want to shoot African game - or any game for that matter other then say... Frogs or such - with such a light weighted bow.
As Hunters, regardless of weapon choice, we owe it not only to ourselves, the animals we are hunting and not to mention the non hunters out there.... We have to kill animals as swiftly and cleanly as possible.
Sure... That light poundage may do it, but that's like saying your wanting to hunt the same African plains game with a .22 rifle.
I've hit and lost a real good warthog and I was shooting a 63# recurve and 700+ grain arrows.we had real good blood trail but unless you put your BH right on the money then be prepared for a long tracking job. All the weaker African animals died out a few million years ago.
Why risk it I say.
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Hi Al.
Very true on the responsibility of killing the animals as quickly as possible. Every bowhunter should train in order to do so.
Sorry to hear about the warthog. They are the toughest animal I have come across in bowhunting. I have lost 2 before (70lb compound Bear Strike, 1050 grain arrow, Tusker Aztec broadheads from pit blinds). Same as you, blood trail and no pig. Also I have seen these things take a direct heart shot with a 70lb compound, complete pass though with a 3 blade broadhead and the pig ran 80 yards before falling flat. Also I have seen scapular shots on warthog and the animal becomes stunned strait away and falls over dead! What the formula is, I don't know but they are a very tricky animal to kill.
One thing about bows on the lighter side is they can be shot more accurately for most, and the anchor time can be increased, so to allow the animal to maneuver its body for a better shot if it is going to do so. Certain arrow combinations will produce full broadhead pass through with light bows from 30 to 35 pound. The key to this is a very accurate shot at 10 to 15 yards, razor sharp 2 blade with a low profile, EFOC, skinny arrow shaft. This has been proven and with a complete broadhead pass through on the heart, the animal will most likely die fast.
Although warthogs have very thick skin, broadhead sharpness is the key to penetration. Don't get stuck into the world that a high KE bow and a reasonable sharp broadhead will give good penetration. Impala on the other hand have a much softer skin so more arrow energy can be delivered to the flesh.
Happy hunting
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hi Daniel,
Just completed my video from the last hunt at Nam. In it I shot two warthogs with my 53# LB (lowest # I have ever used in Nam). Very fortunately both dropped within 50 to 80 meters. Looking at the video in slow motion I was surprised there were hardly any "penetration" but were good low heart shots that did the job. I like them low!! :)
Warthogs are tough alright. I shot a couple with a high power rifle last trip. One was taken from 70 meters. It ran more than 100 meters before it collapsed. On examination the bullet had penetrated the heart, liver, lungs and shoulder...one tough critter.
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Originally posted by Daniel Oz Locke:
Hi Al.
Very true on the responsibility of killing the animals as quickly as possible. Every bowhunter should train in order to do so.
Sorry to hear about the warthog. They are the toughest animal I have come across in bowhunting. I have lost 2 before (70lb compound Bear Strike, 1050 grain arrow, Tusker Aztec broadheads from pit blinds). Same as you, blood trail and no pig. Also I have seen these things take a direct heart shot with a 70lb compound, complete pass though with a 3 blade broadhead and the pig ran 80 yards before falling flat. Also I have seen scapular shots on warthog and the animal becomes stunned strait away and falls over dead! What the formula is, I don't know but they are a very tricky animal to kill.
One thing about bows on the lighter side is they can be shot more accurately for most, and the anchor time can be increased, so to allow the animal to maneuver its body for a better shot if it is going to do so. Certain arrow combinations will produce full broadhead pass through with light bows from 30 to 35 pound. The key to this is a very accurate shot at 10 to 15 yards, razor sharp 2 blade with a low profile, EFOC, skinny arrow shaft. This has been proven and with a complete broadhead pass through on the heart, the animal will most likely die fast.
Although warthogs have very thick skin, broadhead sharpness is the key to penetration. Don't get stuck into the world that a high KE bow and a reasonable sharp broadhead will give good penetration. Impala on the other hand have a much softer skin so more arrow energy can be delivered to the flesh.
Happy hunting
Daniel, how many warthogs and impala did you kill with trad gear?
Myself I killed 8 WH and 4 impala ram plus 6 or 7 management does ( maybe more but don't remember all) and NONE lost despite for two of them a liver area shot needing a long track and back up arrow. Despite 60+ fast recurve or hybrid LB / 700 gr arrows and 31+ draw length and a BIG JIM 3 blade monster broadhead I didn't pass through all of them on quartering shots. With same set up I passed through young 1000# eland bull on quartering shot at 30 yards...some of those WH were taken in Bulawayo, Zimbabwe where i went twice.
That's much less than some hunters but enough to have an idea that reasonably heavy bow and arrow with wide cutting tip may give a 100% result! at least on a small number of animals.
The fact you and your friend had twice luck with a children bow doesn t make a Truth. Was it a first 2 shots 2 killed hunt?
Happy hunt in Nam.
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Quote: "The fact you and your friend had twice luck with a children bow doesn t make a Truth. Was it a first 2 shots 2 killed hunt?"
...hmmm problem with opinions and unfounded assumptions.
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Main "unfounded assumption" Is to open a topic about bowhunting in Africa with " 30 to 35# bow" for impala and warthog in a place where some people have an idea of what is bowhunting those animals and what kind of problem you may face when bowhunting them with trad gear.
As you know animals when hunted from a blind at a waterhole are very spooky and any noise make them move, even the noise or move from other animal of the herd or other species. Even if the shooter is a true champion what can you expect as a "standard" result in lethality or arrow penetration when you mix a randomly moving upon release spooky game, a light arrow/ small cutting diameter BH pushed under 145 fps and the emotion of the hunter in front of a game he doesn't see often and a real trophy warthog or impala?
The fact that a guy had enough disrespect ( and money too as Zimbabwe bow permit in 2013 was $1500) to shoot at those living animals with a "33 # old recurve" and fortunately killed them shouldn't be discussed as a certainty or a realistic option because it is not.
Any standard frame adult man in normal health, willing to bowhunt African animals, can work out his strength and form to shoot at least 50 # at his draw and keep to play on foam in the backyard with "30 to 35# bows".
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I guess this topic WAS about arrow mechanics and real life examples of arrow setups that work from light poundage bows. An example of arrow mechanics only, would be two 600 grain arrows traveling at 160 ft per sec with 2 identical broadheads. One being a 23/64 Port Orford Cedar shaft and another being a Victory VAP carbon 350. Both will deliver a momentum figure of around .43
Which one will penetrate through a consistent fleshy medium the most? My guess would be the carbon arrow because of its thinner shaft diameter. From this point we could use different examples of broadhead, FOC values ect, to see how penetration could be increased even further from that Victory 160 ft per sec 600 grain arrow.
Now once the 'off the shelf ultimate arrow' has been achieved, its penetration value will be a certain figure above the standard arrow. From there a recurve shooter could drop poundage to drop speed, in order to achieve the 'ultimate' arrows penetration to be the same as the standard arrow. And that the basics of the conversation folks!
I guess Ed Ashby has done a lot towards this arrow mechanics business but there are still some areas to study a little more.
Now for the disrespect part, I generally bowhunt plains game to eat and my ethos is to kill the animal as quickly as possible. This is in order to cause minimal pain to the animal, and so I can recover the carcass as quickly as possible so the animal doesn't cook in the sun. After every hunt I pack my cooler boxes as much as possible for the deep freeze at home.
The fact that the poundage is low has no relevance to the respect of the hunted animal. The respect part is generated when clean, quick kill is made and this has already been proven. Don't forget that bowhunters have cocked up with high poundage bows too! Does that bypass the disrespect category because the poundage was high?
I have moved to Zimbabwe with my wife and two sons from Australia because one of our reasons was for me to peruse my passion of bowhunting, bow fishing and fishing. I have been running a Field Archery club now for two years in Harare and our focus is on correct bow set up, shot placement and practicing on lots of different shooting stances and lots of different shots including pit blinds. I have lost 2 animals since I have been here and that wasn't with trad gear.
I don't pay bow permits as I am a resident of Zimbabwe. I also get very cheap hunts and free hunts but the free ones are mainly bush pig and jackal. This is one of the advantages of living here.
I don't see shooting a 30 to 35 pound bow disrespectful to an animal if it can make a clean kill. The solution to the so called problem is arrow mechanics. In fact, if this idea can be refined to a well proven, documented and extensively trialed setup, then women also can train on trad bows between 30 and 40 pound and have a good amount of success. I haven't really come across women shooting 50 pound and higher recurves but only really found there bodys capable of shooting average 35 pounds consistently and accurately. But there are a very talented bunch of gals out there who do shoot 40 and higher and full respect to them and there hard work.
But any way, who can shoot the highest poundage is talk for the bar after the hunt!!!
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Daniel, we are living definitely in a different world.
I live in a world where sometimes when bowhunting things don't go the way I expected, animals are not fixed targets thus shot angle may change and lung shot become a spine one or heart shot a lung one through the humerus bone etc..., distance may be further than 15 yards, animals may be bigger than I planned etc... and then adding the more energy i can to my arrow and the more cutting effect to my broadhead can help to move a nightmare in a happy smile. You live in a world where everything goes perfectly every time. You seem to live in Wonderland. Good for you, until you will wake up...
Happy hunt
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On a more of a positive note... I've never heard anyone moving TO Zim from Aussie, it's more the other way around mate! Good for you in chasing your dream, I just hope the security situation is safer now a days?
I work with a number of Africans, both from Zim and SA who have all moved to Aussie after the downfall of Rhodesia and they speak highly of the old days and what the country use to be.
Where are you hunting in Nimimba mate?
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Hi Al
I think I will be going to Agagia in Nam. There are a bunch of guys from Perth going and I am from Perth so I thought I would meet up with them and do a little hunting. The flights from Zim to Nam are too badly priced so I have to do it at least once.
Zim isn't so bad to what you hear. I have spoken to a lot of people here, foreign and local and I think that certain places in the USA (poverty areas) are the most dangerous. The only thing here is you just have to be spacially aware of your surrounding in order to prevent petty crime. I guess a true hunter who is tuned to the bush has to be spacially aware of the surroundings too for survival.
I do watch the Australian Crime Stopper type shows here on pay TV and I think that some of those cases (and they are regular ones too) are quite bad.
But if we ever had to move back to Australia for any reason then I have convinced my wife that we should live in Palmerston NT (just south of Darwin) as it is a good central place for hunting trips and I have various mechanical quals to work at the Roberston Barracks.
I have never been to Namibia but I have hear from non hunters but safari type folk that it is a stunning place.
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daniel, i'm not sure of why you created this thread. are you arguing a case for extremely lightweight trad bows for large, tough and dangerous game? if so in any manner, that is quite misleading, misguided and not the type of hunting ethics trad gang will either endorse or allow to exist on our forum. please explain.
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Wow, didn't know impala are: "large. tough and dangerous"?
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warthogs.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
warthogs.
OK, but they aren't large. Dangerous ? Maybe. Tough? yes. However, in my experience it isn't very hard to get good penetration on them.
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the bottom line is, hunting most anything in africa with a 33# stickbow is just ethically nuts, sends the wrong message to newbies and it all becomes pure anti-hunting fodder for the peta-files (who DO review trad gang more often than we think).
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fwiw ....
a noted south african ph, dennis kamstra, who also writes for the traditional bowhunter magazine, published his following opinions, which i think are quite apropos to this thread's aim and content ...
"I would like to make a controversial comment about bow weight and arrow weight for hunting big game. What I interpret to be "big game" is any animal over 250 pounds in live weight (because bone muscle mass is a much bigger consideration than with animals less than this weight). I will make a bold statement that for hunting big game, a bowhunter should be using a bow over 55# of draw weight and an arrow over 600 grains total arrow weight. Admittedly, this comment is based on my experience hunting African game, but I would throw elk, moose, bear, and big hogs in this category as well.
As long as I have put my toe into this controversial water, I may as well jump in all the way. The above recommendations are especially true for bowhunters using traditional equipment. I am in a unique position where I guide both compound and traditional bowhunters. My observation is that complete pass through is common with compound shooters, but rare with traditional shooters (shooting equipment lighter than my above recommendation). Once traditional bows get up to 65# or more, and arrow weight exceeds 750 grains, the difference in penetration levels out. In fact, I personally know outfitters who refuse to guide traditional bowhunters because of their experience with excessive wounding of game. I try to explain that this is a misconception, but my words have fallen on deaf ears. I think we, as traditional bowhunters, can alter this thinking by ratcheting up arrow weight specifically. But, in order to successfully shoot heavier arrows, we should have a corresponding increase in bow weight. I am absolutely convinced that heavy, FOC arrows are a superior hunting weapon. If nothing else, simply strive to use broadheads that exceed 190 grains in weight and match the rest of your equipment to that."
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Well then, I guess I better quit hunting Africa, big NA game and hogs then. With my short 26" draw, and shooting less than 55 lbs, I'm being unethical.
Oh, and this post was about impala and warthog, both well under 250lbs.
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mike, my above post was prefaced with "fwiw" (for what it's worth). if what dennis wrote applies to anyhone, or has bearing, or makes sense, or makes nonsense, that's clearly up to each of us to decide. but in any event, i think that a person making a living as a ph in south africa has a bit more merit and weight than i, living and hunting hogs in the usa. perhaps you included as well ... ? i dunno, that's up to you.
i can no longer hold and shoot 65 or even 60 pound bows good enuf, to my standards. 52 pounds serves me well for the hogs i prefer to hunt. would i hunt hogs with my 45 pound hill longbow? hmmm, i dunno. maybe sounders, but not a large sow or boar. that's just my ethics.
would i take my 52# longbow to hunt any small/medium sized african game (impala and/or warthog). hell no. again, my ethics. to each their own, it's all good one way or another.
(http://tradgang.com/rob/hog10/tg_rob_hog3.jpg)
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Rob, I don't want to argue, but really? You wouldn't shoot a 125# animal w/ a 52# bow? An impala has thin skin and is very comparable to our pronghorns. As far as warthogs, again a big one MAY go 180-200, most around 150-160lbs, and they don't have the shoulder plates our pigs have.
I will continue to hunt large game w/ my sub 55# bows, including African and North American game. I do however "up" my performance w/ skinny strings and high FOC arrows as I have always done.
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mike, it's all personal. if i'm paying to hunt africa, i'm not going with a 33# bow, nor a 52# bow. i'll take my 45-70 and 30-06 and hunt for game commensurate to those cartridges. i know my limits, you know yours. it's all good, no argument from me.
look at the larger picture concerning this thread. add in a mix of all the people who peruse all this (remember, you don't need to be a trad gang member to read trad gang) and without them understanding or knowing their limits, they may think its just fine to hunt impala/warthog with 33# holding weight or perhaps elk with a 50# holding weight. however, with their limited skills, therein lies both the problem and consequences we will all suffer.
fwiw, skinny strings are near meaningless for any kinda noticeable performance "boost". 1 or 2 fps means squat. i think high or even ultra high foc is a good thing, too, along with a minimum 10gpp arrow.
however, i also believe that those things take a big back seat to - consistently accurate shot placement at a specific near and max range, excellent arrow flight, and truly sharp c-o-c broadheads. it may take a 45# bow to make that all happen, and then tailor the game hunted to that tackle and the bowhunter's expertise.
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Rob,
Have to disagree about the skinny strings. My chrono results added 12-15fps over my Dacron strings. That's the equivalent of 5-6 pounds of draw weight.
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Originally posted by Prairie Drifter:
Rob,
Have to disagree about the skinny strings. My chrono results added 12-15fps over my Dacron strings. That's the equivalent of 5-6 pounds of draw weight.
let me guess - yer skinny strings are hmpe. ;)
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SBD's. Rob, I just feel your depriving yourself of opportunities . My first trip to Africa I hunted w/ a handgun. Took several trophies including a top 5 East cape Kudu. Had a blast. Every trip since has been w/ a bow. Had even more fun ! YMMV.
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Originally posted by Prairie Drifter:
SBD's. ...
yer experiencing the difference 'tween dacron polyester and hmpe polyethylene. the average typical speed difference 'tween 14 and 8 strands of hmpe (most any flavor) ain't much at all. i built bowstrings for a living at one time, in the dim past.
when i was yer age, 20 years ago, there were lotsa things i wouldn't hesitate doing. won't say anymore. ;)
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I agree with Rob. If you compare 2 perfectly made strings for a given bow, same brace height and draw length with the same arrow difference between Dacron and dynema strings will be around 4-5 fps and 16 strand vs 8 strands same dynema strings will be hardly a couple of fps if any. When you get more than that it is usually more from quality of building, non stabilized string vs completely stabilized one and difference in brace height with lower BH on the " skinny"
Regarding to bow poundage and African plains game, for a very good shot and no marginal hit 50 pounders and skinny one inch wide 2 blades are really effective. When you are marginal ( trophy fever, fast spinning upon release game, etc..) you will have no back up for breaking bone or deeply penetrate the critter or create a wide wound from a wider and/or multiblade BH and most of the time a poor outcome.
Advising extra light poundage as mentioned in topic title is just stupid.
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Due to health issues I was forced to shoot a 56' Thunderchild that was marked 50@28 and I only draw 27"so probably 47#s or so. Single bevel two blade Abowyer and a 500 grain ish arrow...... I shot Impala, Warthog, Blesbok, Nayala and a Red Duiker.... Lammie from Dare to Bowhunt SA will attest to the effectiveness of my set up ..... all animals had two holes, entry and exit...
sorry for the quality of this video but it demonstrates the effectiveness of my set up. The arrows shadow can be seen in the video. It traveled about 18/19 inches and fell to the ground after a short death run... this shot was about 18 yards..... I would not hesitate to use this set up again………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5GMRFgWlXs