Post by: Madpigslayer on July 04, 2003, 12:48:00 AM
Ferret's web page has sorta got me jazzed on the subject.
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/rivercanearrows.msnw
that and I am starting to get busier and busier with work, the baby seems to want to stay awake a little longer with the longer days...Long story short, I aint getting much done on the building front lately. I figured if I posted a "stumble along build" maybe I would have to stick it out and get SOMETHING done at least!
plan is to start with 4 cane, if I end up with 3 arrows out of it, that would be good.
This and one small bow are all I have planned for the summer.
here is a shot of the stuff Murray Gaskins sent me...
pisture of the first look and sort. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/79608454GPqcqS)
here is the stack after it has been roughly matched and stacked again for drying.
the four on top will be the first ones I try. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/79608563SMEnBv)
These ones are still a little green, is that ok?
I am not waiting until I have everything, I am just going to make it up as I go along. I got goose feathers I think...will have to check to see if I have any turkey. got sinew, only one point. I might bash out some trade points if I get inspired!
Any pointers from you 'cane artists are welcome!
For some reason, this stuff dont grow around here LOL!!!
I will try and do something on the project tommorrow, time permitting.
Post by: Timo on July 04, 2003, 08:02:00 AM
The cane looks dry to me!Looks like pretty good straight stuff! :saywhat:
Just wondering if you had a heat gun?They come in pretty handy for straightning. Good luck.
Nice little piggys! :D
Post by: Rick Boyer on July 04, 2003, 08:30:00 AM
good luck on them..gator
Post by: Killdeer on July 04, 2003, 08:34:00 AM
I'll be a-watchin' this too, as I am making my first cane arrows... very slowly!
Killdeer
Post by: Douglas DuRant on July 04, 2003, 09:52:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on July 04, 2003, 11:23:00 AM
You've got a good start by sorting and bundling.
I see you've selected 4 pieces to start with. First step is to plan where in the cane your arrow is gonna be. By that I mean where is the nock gonna be? How long is it going to be? How big in diameter is it going to be?
I try and pick mine so that the nock will be just above a node, that way I don't have to sinew wrap the nock for safety. After choosing where my nock goes (leaving approx 1" for the nock and 1" for the tip) I then measure off 29" total (for a 27" bop arrow)and cut them off. No sense straightening cane you won't be using. I use the gas stove for my heat source, turning on 1 burner on low and passing the cane thru the flame until I can't touch it (keep it moving)then I straighten just like an aluminum arrow, over the heel pad of my thumb. Straighten the nodes first and the area between the nodes last. I usually go through the straightening process 6 times on each shaft before I'm happy with them, but when I'm done they are as straight as any shaft I've seen.
I use a tile cutting blade for cutting in the self nocks and clean them up and shape the tips with sandpaper. If you want to make them solid, drill out the center of the cane with a 1/4" drill bit and epoxy in a piece of 1"x 1/4" dowel rod before cutting in the nocks. I've never had a problem with them "as is" and have taken deer, turkey and multiple hogs with cane shafts.
You will have to "plug" the point end especially if you want to taper for a modern head like a magnus or zwickey. If you are going to use a trade point or a flint head plugging the point end becomes an option again (but certainly recommended for strength..use a 1 1/2-2" x 1/4" plug). Be sure and sinew wrap your trade point or flint head, and taper the end of the shaft so that there is a slope where it meets the point (not an abrubt edge which could impede penetration).
As for the node I rasp mine down fairly close to shaft diameter with the smooth side of a 4 cornered rasp followed up by 100 grit sandpaper.
If you want to stain the shaft use 150 grit sandpaper on the whole shaft before staining. I also advise sanding the area where you want to glue feathers on. I have used both fletch tite and fletch tape with great success on cane and sinew wrap the fore end of the feathers.
Here are 3 cane arrow I am just finishing up as awards for Mojam. I still have to do the sinew wrapping on the flint tips and feathers, but they are basically done.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/54404608/79653855EBTvVl
http://community.webshots.com/photo/54404608/79654045MtuEYd
http://community.webshots.com/photo/54404608/79654356FYlslk
Post by: Timo on July 04, 2003, 12:38:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 04, 2003, 01:11:00 PM
you asked where they came from, I think Murray indicated he cut them...so I will guess they are from Georgia then...maybe Florida. I am not 100% sure.
I know that you guys get to see this stuff all the time, but remember that this all new to me, and as such last night as I was going through all of them...I was sorta blown away.
What an ideal arrow material?! I cant imagine anything more traditional looking.
tell ya what, I felt like Maurice and his brother were looking over my shoulder last night. and they approved.
Post by: Craig/FL on July 04, 2003, 02:11:00 PM
Post by: Dano on July 04, 2003, 03:01:00 PM
Rivercane arrow (http://community.webshots.com/album/79682259XezDlT)
http://community.webshots.com/album/79682259XezDlT
Post by: the Ferret on July 04, 2003, 03:13:00 PM
Calvin, I usually use a dollop of 30 minute 2 part epoxy to seat the heads which gives you time to align the head with a good spin. On these I used CA glue to see how it would work because I aligned the heads so they spun perfectly and didn't want to take them apart again. (seems to work ok, but no gap filling properties). Jawge Tsoukalas uses pine pitch to seat his heads. I'm not all that primitive :bigsmyl:
Just finished wrapping the heads and feathers with ostrich sinew and hide glue, now I'll give them a week or so to dry.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/54404608/79682472gbTDsI
http://community.webshots.com/photo/54404608/79682577porsue
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 04, 2003, 03:18:00 PM
You are getting some milage out of that Ostrich sinew hey? you know someone that farms em or sumpthing??
I really gotta get on the phone and talk to some of the exotic meat producers around here. I need all the trade good I can get.
Post by: the Ferret on July 04, 2003, 03:24:00 PM
Try doing a self nock on a practice arrow and you'll see how durable they are. If it's not just above a node, you can plug it, or sinew wrap it to keep it from splitting.
Post by: the Ferret on July 04, 2003, 03:29:00 PM
It's unbelievable stuff in that a typical deer leg tendon is maybe 8-9" long and the ostrich is like 18" long. You can do a whole lot of wrapping with just 1 strand of the stuff. Down side is pounding twenty 18" long leg tendons. I think I got carpel tunnel from it ha ha :knothead:
Post by: Dano on July 04, 2003, 03:35:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on July 04, 2003, 03:39:00 PM
PS I went and edited my post above to read leaving 1" for the nock and 1" for the tip I cut them to 29" long total for a 27" bop arrow (just to be clear)
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 04, 2003, 08:14:00 PM
I don't think I will be able to do much tonight, seems it is "Calgary Stampede" party time, gotta git me downstairs for some BBQ and coolies with the fellow employees.
any of ya'll ever heard of the Calgary Stampede?
there is a million or so tourists in town right now...makes the already long drawn out rush hours last....ALL DAY.
Also, Happy Birthday America!
Post by: Douglas DuRant on July 04, 2003, 08:54:00 PM
This is a different method than the Ferret's way. I offer it as an alternative, and not as a better way.
I have had an arrow split at the nock end useing the node without wrapping. I now always wrap at the nock even when I use a node. You can also glue in a longer or shorter length of dowel to help match weight between the arrows. Yes i am a bit anal when it comes to matching arrows, but like Mickey said cane seems to not care about spine and weight as much. Also at 20 yards or less the weight isn't as much of an issue
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 05, 2003, 02:55:00 AM
not exactly straight! (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/79739771ihPNHZ)
here I have reduced the nodes (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/79739907jTTHLz)
and finally...
here they are after a trip through the propane torch. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/79740001QyHhsT)
already look like arrows! I guess I will run them through a few more times...then they will be as staight as...oh, say...arrows?
I gotta say, I am so far really enjoying this arrow shaft material.
...cant ya just feel the MoJo comin' offa them?!!!
Post by: the Ferret on July 05, 2003, 10:14:00 AM
At any rate yours are looking pretty good so far. :thumbsup: Like said above it will take several passes but you can get them real straight. Don't be fooled by where the leaf came out of the node as being a crooked spot, you may have more node on one side of the shaft than the other, but the centerline thru the shaft will still be straight.
Someone on another forum had mentioned heating a tube of sand and then spinning the cane in the heated sand and that it would automatically straighten them, but I have yet to try that.
Doug makes a good point about being safe. I probably should sinew my nodes below the nock for safety sake. At the very least take some serving thread or artificial sinew and do a thread wrap there and soak it in glue. Could even be decorative. I am able to get away with a lot because I shoot pretty low poundage I guess. If I was shoot 60 or 70# I might think a little more about things breaking.
BTW I consider my cane arrows mediocre. If you were going to Mojam you'd see some cane arrows made by Johnbow and Mike Ok that would take your breath away. Flawless!
Making your own cane shafts just takes you one step deeper into the abyss of primitive archery.
Next step is making your own heads :eek:
Post by: the Ferret on July 05, 2003, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 05, 2003, 10:24:00 AM
making some trades is definatly on the menu...havent yet got the desire to knapp...too many other skills to learn for now.
Post by: Flatstick on July 05, 2003, 10:55:00 AM
Post by: Dante on July 05, 2003, 11:45:00 AM
Ferret or anyone that knows out there..... Do people spine that rivercane like wood or other arrows....? Or is it a different bird entirely when it comes to that.
I saw Jay Campbell shooting them at the Texas longbow shoot once and they were well matched shafts from what he told me.
What is the deal on spine and weight etc....?????
Post by: MikeW on July 05, 2003, 06:13:00 PM
I know where there is a bunch of it where am working right now if it's what you guys are talking about.
Guess am gonna have to cut some and brng it back with me when I go back this week.
What dia. should I try and get for a #50-#55 pound bow?
Post by: the Ferret on July 05, 2003, 10:11:00 PM
As far as diameter the stuff I use is about the size of an 11/32 shaft, but I've used bigger and smaller with the same results.
Not sure where all it grows but I've gotten it from Alabama, Texas and Oklahoma so it must be a southern thing.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 05, 2003, 11:09:00 PM
As mentioned, all this is new to me. Hell, even the spine tester is new to me! only had it a week or two. never needed to spine arrows before.
I am having much fun.
got a line on a local supply of buffalo sinew, drying some right now, should be ready to go when I need to tie in the feathers. I have a couple calls in to some ostrich and elk farmers too, we shall see about that. (I would rather use buffalo on this project than emu I think)
BTW, about how long are you making those feathers ferret? and do you trim the feathers before or after you get them on?
Of the two guys that you mentioned that are awesome cane arra gurus, do you think that one of them would sell/trade me one shaft? I think my building would be accelerated if I could look at one in the flesh, just curious.
I also think I want to use either trade points or stone points...actually I should use field points so that I can at least play with them I guess!! I did buy some doweling to run inside them today, we will see if I can get some time in tonight.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 06, 2003, 12:20:00 AM
I would of course pay shipping both ways...
Post by: countrygirl on July 06, 2003, 08:45:00 AM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 06, 2003, 06:00:00 PM
1)I assume from my archive search (LW) that we all agree that the fat end will be the broadhead end?
2)will the allmighty Duco work for fletch glue?
3)It would appear that these arras are the bomb in a self bow, but how do they fly out of more center shot bows? just curious. (not trying to be blasphemous here, I already know it wouldnt look right!)
Post by: Rick Boyer on July 06, 2003, 06:38:00 PM
they shoot well off any bow that is with in spine..
gator
Post by: the Ferret on July 06, 2003, 09:18:00 PM
I imagine they would fly well out of anybow they are reasonable close in spine for whether it is centershot or not. I've shot them out of selfbows, bbo's and laminated longbows.
Post by: Sal on July 07, 2003, 12:49:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 08, 2003, 11:14:00 AM
have now straightened them 3 or 4 times...and they are starting to resemble arrows. I am pleased. I can see that they will go a lot faster after I do a few. I still have a couple more passes through the heat to do...finesse in that last little bit of staightness.
They did spine lighter than I thought, I figured they would be 50-55 and they turned out 40-45# but that is alright...I have a feeling I might make a bow at that weight some day! (maybe even on purpose!)
Even the "other" stopped by and checked them out. I must be doing something right...got her curiousity up anyway.
Post by: Marvin M. on July 08, 2003, 12:17:00 PM
I am also a rookie at this. I have one done now and the next ones will be better. Within fifty yards of my favorite deer stand is a large patch of the stuff. I've got a pretty good supply laid up in my garage. Every time I scout the area, I cut a few shafts and bring them home.
You mentioned the green color. If you lay them out in the sun they will "tan". :cool: When they dry in the shade they retain their green color, but a little time in the sun will take care of that. I either put them behind the back seat of my car, or lay them on the roof on the sunny side of the house. Give them a week or so and they will be nice and brown.
I'm learning the skill of making self nocks now, but I think the next group of cane I do I am going to try for bone nocks. I am getting ambitious.
Ferret, Nice arrows. You are good at this stuff. Wish I could come watch you for a week. Will you be my mentor? :)
Post by: the Ferret on July 08, 2003, 02:39:00 PM
http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/80284334nWeRUq
Boy those are actually starting to resemble some neat arrows.
Marvin, didn't know it grew as far north as Central Kentucky. Since my kids are grown and gone and I have salemsmans hours I have plenty of time to work on stuff (archery stuff not house stuff ;) )
Post by: Marvin M. on July 08, 2003, 02:56:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 08, 2003, 02:59:00 PM
here is another one. Thanks Mickey, Im gettin tired I guess...few late nights.
Bone nocks? now THAT sounds cool! what kinda bone ya using Marvin??? and hey, would antler work? I got some of that. might be too brittle? I still havent figuered out what to do for trade points, I have some raw copper...I think it was Jim Hamm who said that there was some Indians who bashed out raw copper for points. then I got some old skil saw blades laying around, might be able to hack saw out a couple of points outta that...and I do have one glass knapped point that David Rhodes sent to me, I might try that too. (where the heck has David been lately?)
oh well..back to work!
Post by: Marvin M. on July 08, 2003, 03:19:00 PM
Not sure on the bone nocks yet, but I've got some ideas. Don't want to post till they come out.
I started another thread on the trade point idea. Look for "Trade Points from Spoons?" and lets see if we get any help. That seems like a simple idea and one that someone should be able to help us with. If I can get that going, I will post pictures of how that works as I progress.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 08, 2003, 03:51:00 PM
"I got three spoon points for one of your stone points...and three pieces of sinew"
(conversation overheard at MoJam..)
Post by: the Ferret on July 08, 2003, 06:32:00 PM
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/makingtradepoints.msnw
Don't know about making them from spoons, doesn't seem like they'd hold an edge.
Marvin, I get as far south as Paris, Ky on my sales routes, think that's far enough south to look for cane (about 100 miles south of Cinti)
Post by: Dano on July 08, 2003, 06:45:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on July 08, 2003, 06:59:00 PM
Calvin, menat to mention I love the quality of your photos with the tackleboxes and tools in the background and on the table. Crisp, clear, good color....Class pics!
Post by: Flatstick on July 08, 2003, 08:18:00 PM
Where abouts in IL can I find rivercane? I live in west central IN, across the state line from Paris IL. If the stuff is around I sure would like to round it up and try making arrows of it.
Post by: Dano on July 08, 2003, 08:33:00 PM
Mickey, I'll have 5 dozen to trade, ya think that will do?
Post by: Poboy on July 08, 2003, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on July 08, 2003, 09:52:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 09, 2003, 01:56:00 AM
I took it from fresh cut off of the carcass to reduced to sinew strings in 5 days. I will use this sinew to tie the turkey feathers onto my new rivercane arrows.
Hope you find it interesting.
Post by: the Ferret on July 09, 2003, 07:01:00 AM
Post by: Marvin M. on July 09, 2003, 08:27:00 AM
I work in Cynthiana. That is about 15 miles from Paris. I live in Lexington and the place I talked about is just across the river south of Lexington. I have seen it here around Cynthiana and Paris. Next time you are down, get in touch. I know a couple of farmers here in Cynthiana. I will try to scout some out for you and get you a load of the stuff before you leave. You can teach me how to pick it.
Calvin,
I think I am going to try to make some of those spoon points. Seems like it shouldn't be too hard. You have inspired me to get out my stash of cane and get busy. My problem is time limitation as you mentioned. I leave home before 7:00 and if I am lucky I make it back by 7:00. Half my weekends are tied up with family, and I usually use my lunch hour to shoot. Doesn't leave much time.
Nice stash of sinew by the way.
Post by: the Ferret on July 09, 2003, 08:39:00 AM
Post by: Marvin M. on July 09, 2003, 09:14:00 AM
You've got mail.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 09, 2003, 11:26:00 AM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 09, 2003, 12:07:00 PM
Thanks Mr. G!
Post by: Murray on July 10, 2003, 11:56:00 AM
One interesting thing about those particular arrow points is that they both have taken game. I made them several years ago, when I kill a deer or hog with an arrow I will set it back sometimes so I cn look at it from time to time. I have taken a good number of hogs and deer with obsidian points, different kinds of flint and with trade points I have made from banding material.
I am sure it will happen sometime but those arrows could both be used again. Rivercane is very tough material. Thanks, Murray
Post by: Murray on July 10, 2003, 11:58:00 AM
Post by: Murray on July 10, 2003, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: Terry Green on July 10, 2003, 12:19:00 PM
See that pencil and paper above your post?
You can click that, and correct your mistakes. I'll fix this one for ya,...so you can see how it works.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 10, 2003, 12:31:00 PM
Murray, I have seen several cane arrows now (online) that have the point end doweled (some not even doweled) and tapered with the point right on the end. Is there any reason you would recommend a "foot" on the cane? beside the obvious good looks of it. just curious. I would have asked you in an email, but since you are here, maybe your answer will help others as well.
just curious! Thanks!! :D
Post by: Murray on July 10, 2003, 04:12:00 PM
I have been working through some of this exact subject with a couple of other guys in the last day or two, it's odd that you asked about it but is really dead on. Sometimes I will install a glued on tip to my arrow but not always. If I do that I do fill the hollow part of the shaft with a dowel and glue to get the weight forward effect without even seeing it. You can add sand or anything else to get the weight weight right.
I like to make a removable fore shaft because it can come out if you do not get complete penetration. If the foreshaft comes out and the main shaft drops away the wound opens up and the blood trail is better. I have also never broken one of these arrows that drops away because as soon as it hits a sapling or tree, it is yanked apart, is out and the shaft is on the ground.
Another reason for a separable foreshaft is that you can make them more quickly and they do not have to be dedicated to the arrow. You can make up a dozen pile ends and if you want to smack a rabbit or squirrel with a blunt you can be ready in a minute. In other words you can have three good arrows and several types of points plus youcan have sharp points ready to install. You can sharpen points more easily by having a shorter piece of wood in your hand and you can use the foreshaft as a handle. I can come up with some other reasons but those are some good ones.
Take care, Murray
Post by: Glasspoint on July 10, 2003, 08:39:00 PM
Been working away from a 'puter for a week or so and the withdrawls were killing me :smileystooges: !
I've got some new stone coming tomorrow, if you want, I'll get you a couple more points.
Started working on the Martha Stewart bamboo from K-Mart and it seems to be harder to straighten that the fresh stuff.
Anybody notice the same thing? Too dry maybe?
I'll post pix when I can steal my buddy's camera again :saywhat:
!["[tunglaff]"]("graemlins/tunglaff.gif" "\"\"")
.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 10, 2003, 08:48:00 PM
I guess if the end was drilled out to a "tight fit" diameter of the dowel, that it would stay in during the flight, but just pull out when you removed the arrow. I think that the wrap would then only be responsible for keeping the fit "snug" and from splitting the cane. I am thinking out loud here...need a little clarity.
I guess there would be a place for both ways. the other being stuck tight and not being removable. or is that the occasion that you would just stick the point/head on the end directly?
also what do you prefer for fore shaft wood/material?
Post by: the Ferret on July 10, 2003, 09:55:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 10, 2003, 10:51:00 PM
Hi David! sure, put me down for a few more points. Your gonna see the first one you sent me on one of these arrows likely.
could you re-hydrate the stuff a little by soaking it, to make it easier to straighten? I dont think it takes long at all to dry out. I have some of those Martha Stewerts too...doesnt seem nearly as nice as this river cane. I will try that stuff later. the ones I have are pretty thin.
I got some banding material coming from our friend Linc here to try for trade points, will try a few other mediums at the same time. seems everytime I do something for the first time I try it a few differant ways to get my "groove on."
I think the next few days will be pretty busy...will try to jam in an hour here and there.
Post by: Murray on July 10, 2003, 11:46:00 PM
Like I told you cane shafts are extremely tough. Mickey makes a good point too btw with the reason to have a one piece very flexible, tough arrow. Still, in my experience there are good reasons for a foreshaft to be able come off, not necessarily all too easily either, mine do not just slip apart easily. I shot a doe several years ago from a good distance that turned and took off as the arrow struck her. I had shot her from a tree stand and the arrow had penetrated both sides almost to the feathers, it stopped sticking out either side but not come out on the ground. When she ran away the arrow sounded like rattling a stick down a picket fence for a few seconds. The cane shaft was on one side and the hafted head was laying on the other side of the trail a few feet farther down the trail, both pieces were still very usable and I could just stick them back together. She bled out both of the open wounds well and I found her a couple of hundred yards down the way. Take care, Murray
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 11, 2003, 01:41:00 AM
I got the feelin' I'm gonna make a couple truckloads of these things. BTW...here is a shot of what I got accomplished tonight. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/67660702/80689307FVaATC)
What?!! How'd that get in there! musta made a mistake I guess. ;)
anyways...I remembered reading somewhere (LW Archives???) or maybe here that someone used an iron and rolled the cane in a rounded slot. well...I just grabbed my flea market iron (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/80689157DYIpao) and started to roll the cane while I slowly moved the iron down the shaft...pushing down on the iron and rolling with the iron and my other hand. Had the iron on full heat...and I am absolutly positive that this (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/80689232QKPyts) works. (remember I have already reduced the nodes) since I already hand straightened...there wasnt a problem with the oddness of the lumps. I think it worked real well. forgive the fuzzy photos...I was using my teeth...ya, that's it.
Post by: Murray on July 11, 2003, 08:03:00 AM
I am not going to say I invented the procedure of ironing the material in the groove of a board but it is part of the procedure I use. It's in the data I sent you the other day.
Take care, Murray
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 11, 2003, 09:51:00 AM
I had a little time...and taped the ends of the cane, and drilled out the tip ends with a 1/4" bit...nock ends with a 3/16ths (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/80695031riwcAD) bit
then I proceeded to glue in the right size dowel in both ends (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/80695256clodiC)
voila! 24 hours to dry, and I am ready to cut in some stuff!!!
yup, that iron works slick. ya'll might have to try that!
Post by: Dano on July 11, 2003, 10:12:00 AM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 11, 2003, 02:58:00 PM
Now, since YOU brought it up...I will be forced to agree with you, Indeed...my baby is the sweetest little thing in my world!!! every time I am on the computer when she is awake, she will crawl up the computer box...sit on the desk...and edge her bum over on the desk top until she is right in front of the monitor and I cant see the screen. She gets that little look on her face that you see in the picture there...and I am forced to leave the computer alone and spend time with my little priority.
I adore her. :bigsmyl:
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 17, 2003, 02:03:00 AM
I apologize for the fuzzyness...I aint re-doing the close-up! (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/81591974bxZywU)
I then re-inforced the nock as it is going to be shot from a higher poundage bow, and tied the rear of the 3 fletchings in on the back only. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/81592079fFFqth)
idea there is, when the sinew dries I will be able to pull the feathers tight and sinew them down really well from the front.
BTW, I had no intention of putting sinew in my mouth...but I tell ya what. Saliva activates the natural glue in the sinew...so I didn't have to mess with hide glue! I will size it real good with the real glue after I am done, but this way seems to work real well so far.
(NOW can ya hear the drums...?!!!)
HEY how are ya HEY how are ya...(simulated Indian chant)
just about gottum arra!
Post by: Marvin M. on July 17, 2003, 10:42:00 AM
Instead of pouting this weekend (about MOJAM) get busy and finish those arrows!!! :D
I am tentatively planning a cane cutting venture this weekend. I want to increase my supply and do a little scouting. Apparently what I have found here is not river cane but switch cane as the link below describes it.
See the link below: :readit: http://www.geocities.com/archeryrob/arrow_materials.htm then choose River Cane from the menu.
I am going to start working on some arrows myself. You have definitely inspired me. I will post pics as I get going so everyone can see. I did buy some spoons (6 for $1.00 at Wal-Mart) and am going to try to make trade points from them, :help: and I have an idea for bone nocks that I am working on. :confused: If it works, it should be easy. I'll keep you posted.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 17, 2003, 11:27:00 AM
I did buy some 12" spikes last night to try and use as a trade point alternative (saw that in Jim Hamms book I think) 'course they are the dickens to pound out. My little piece of railroad aint cuttin it. I will have to run them to the shop and bash them on the anvil. should work well I would think.
I pick up a bunch more tendon from the butcher this afternoon...that little relasonship seems to going real well. (they charge me $0.25 a POUND) so I should have a good supply within a couple months I would think...as mentioned above, just by chewing on the stuff I can use it as a wrap, and it drys hard. (seems gross, but isnt) besides I think there is major medicine in buffalo sinew.
seperates real nice, and works well. I will ask about grabbing some buff bone whan I am there if I remember, that would make a neat head...ala the Murray Gaskin head on the picture I posted.
good luck Marv!
I will be watching for your thread. (and I am still going to pout about MoJam JFYI!!!!)
Post by: Linc on July 18, 2003, 05:43:00 AM
Post by: Matt E on July 18, 2003, 03:43:00 PM
Take care all.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 23, 2003, 01:31:00 AM
Thanks for the banding Linc, it arrived, you will see a pic where I mess with it a little. kinda thin for hunting arrows maybe? I dunno, I will shoot em and try em and hang some on the wall regardless.
Matt E, nice to have you along for the ride. post some pictures of your stuff if you can, I got lots to learn, and pictures help!
anyways...after a few days of drying the rear sinew on the feathers, they are rock hard, and that was helpfull for stretching the feathers tight to do the front sinew wrap. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82471791sbGiCr)
I had a heck of a time getting co-ordinated enough to get them all three tight and wrapped...finally cut a thin piece of clear tape, and secured them on the front half of the scraped quill...then sinew wrapped behind, tommorrow I will cut off the tape. cheating for sure, but I will have to figure out how to do it properly, or grow a few more hands or something.
then I glued on a field point (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82471619IwEBrz) with hot melt. as mentioned, not "period" but, after all, I'm gonna shoot these things and see what happens.
here is the arrow overview... (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82471526kYeMNQ) I gotta figure out how short to trim the feathers now. and what style to make them.
and after that, I screwed around with the steel banding that Linc sent to me, and just got a feel for makin some trade points. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82471434FUzrEE) You will eventually see quite a few differant trials and tribulations as I try differant materials, and just mess around.
seems to be taking awhile...as promised! I am not disappointed.
BTW, I grabbed another batch of buff sinew...and developed a new respect for squaws everywhere. I am pretty sure a sinew pounding Indian woman 100 years ago could have beaten Clint V in a arm wrestle...even lefts. but then again I might be wrong! :wavey:
(Clint, at least it wasn't a donut joke eh bud???!!!)
Post by: the Ferret on July 23, 2003, 06:59:00 AM
as for afixing all three feathers at the same time,don't, simply do 1 at a time. doing 2 wraps with your sinew on your first feather before affixing the next feather 2 wraps and affixing your third feather, finish wrapping with maybe 5-10 wraps over all three feathers
with regards to your trade points. If you can cut them with those hand snips the material is not strong enough for big game hunting. Get you some bandsaw blades from a woodmizer band saw or the like.(lots of large bandsaws in Canada..you might contact a blade sharpening service for a source) Get a blade about 1 1/2" from the back to the cup in the teeth. You'll have to use a dremel with a cut off blade to cut them out, but they'll be tough enough to hunt with. I have sent them thru deer, hogs and turkeys. It's a good metal that will sharpen easily and hold an edge as well.
Please post pics of the completed arrows and your thoughts after shooting them.
Post by: the Ferret on July 23, 2003, 07:16:00 AM
http://community.webshots.com/photo/80772731/80776234qhEDpF
http://community.webshots.com/photo/80772731/80775680fiacUd
http://community.webshots.com/photo/80772731/80776016kEAcTF
http://community.webshots.com/photo/80772731/80774620tTVmVx
http://community.webshots.com/photo/80772731/80776138zXFvGF
Post by: ky_longbow on July 23, 2003, 08:39:00 AM
Post by: Matt E on July 23, 2003, 08:57:00 AM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 23, 2003, 04:15:00 PM
who sent me these pix...
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527178nDeWhC
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527215msKfae
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527305RpwoLY
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527339UrEwli
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527375QxCLAt
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527417TuuZFo
http://community.webshots.com/photo/82527119/82527488kSkFPo
Matt..perhaps ya could give us a run-down on your process? obviously you are doing things a little differant, I would very much like to hear your version?!! thanks again for the pictures.
I really like the looks of the point and the nock...very unique.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 23, 2003, 04:21:00 PM
know this.
without the computer medium there is NO WAY I would be as involved in this hobby. there is a differance in reading a book and actually seeing pictures and having people with real world experience tell ya how to do things. I think this will potentially save me YEARS of struggle. As mentioned before, there is no one around where I live that is tutoring me, just my online mentors...be they voluntary, or in the case of some...involuntary!!!
who would have thunk...I needed the Internet to be able to get back to "primitive technologies"
who said life was a circle? I owe them a beer!
Post by: the Ferret on July 23, 2003, 04:51:00 PM
Post by: Glasspoint on July 23, 2003, 04:54:00 PM
Matt E., Who taught you to make arrows, those are amazing :eek: :D !
Post by: the Ferret on July 23, 2003, 05:05:00 PM
Post by: Matt E on July 23, 2003, 05:53:00 PM
Thanks all.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 23, 2003, 05:56:00 PM
I too have some old circular blades...some thinner than others that might be destined for the trade point thing. will do that at the same time as I try the bandsaw trades, what the heck.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 23, 2003, 05:58:00 PM
Post by: Splinter on July 23, 2003, 06:25:00 PM
That arrow Matt E made is even more beautiful when you hold it in your hands. As we say here in Arkansas, "I'm the wun what tuk dem pitchers."
He is the one that turned me on to cane.
Hey Matt. Sorry you couldn't make the Jam. Rod was everything you'd think he'd be and then some. :D
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 23, 2003, 06:43:00 PM
Maybe you could fill us in on that opalized stuff?
Post by: ky_longbow on July 23, 2003, 06:55:00 PM
Post by: ky_longbow on July 23, 2003, 07:05:00 PM
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/052764.JPG) (http:// http://"http://www.hunt101.com/?p=52764&c=540&z=1")
maybe promising stuff..........
Post by: the Ferret on July 23, 2003, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: Murray on July 23, 2003, 08:47:00 PM
http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/arugig.html
Post by: Matt E on July 23, 2003, 09:23:00 PM
Take care all.
Post by: the Ferret on July 23, 2003, 10:30:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 24, 2003, 12:14:00 AM
Post by: Matt E on July 24, 2003, 08:55:00 AM
Take care all.
Post by: Murray on July 24, 2003, 09:56:00 AM
Tha material I sent you is what they are taking about and is shown in the url that I posted above here.
What I sent to you is the native wild species that is known scientifically as Arundinaria tecta. Around here they call it Rivercane, some people call it Bamboo, some folks elsewhere call it switch cane. Large stands are known as Cane brakes or cane patches. The bottom line is that what you have is the native species, the one the indians native to this region and all up and down the coast used to make arrows and other things from. There are several species of non native Bamboos, I saw the article that Jay was in some years ago and do not think what he is standing in front of is the native species. I am sure it worked for arrows and fishing poles but as I remember it didn't look like A.Tecta, the native species. I work around the stuff all the time in the wetlands and am very familiar with it, personally I refer to it as Rivercane. Look at the URL to see what it looks like standing. Take care Murray
Post by: Murray on July 24, 2003, 11:03:00 AM
Sometimes I get into this stuff also. It has escaped and grows here in SOuth Georgia and all over FLorida. Everybody really likes it for arrows and 99% of people including many scientists have a hard time telling the difference unless they key it. Check the pictures on both sites below and compare. Take care, Murray
http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/psejap.html
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/arugig.html
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 24, 2003, 11:24:00 AM
I quit because I needed to add more sinew wraps to the feathers, they were starting to get loose.
so far, so good!!!
Post by: Glasspoint on July 24, 2003, 12:17:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 24, 2003, 12:22:00 PM
I love the look of these arrows but, what will happen if I lose one? :scared:
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 24, 2003, 12:24:00 PM
Post by: Dano on July 24, 2003, 03:57:00 PM
Post by: Splinter on July 24, 2003, 09:26:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 25, 2003, 12:48:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on July 25, 2003, 06:53:00 AM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 25, 2003, 10:29:00 AM
Post by: ky_longbow on July 25, 2003, 10:39:00 AM
Post by: Splinter on July 25, 2003, 10:18:00 PM
If you will just make them all about the same diameter, I think you will be pleased with the result. I get close to the same weight as my ash arrows and the canes are so much easier to make and probably more durable, which leads to another cane tip... cane shafts with an ash foreshaft. That is probably the most durable arrow of natural materials.
I shot a cane shaft at Mojam that has the cane tapered with a field tip glued on. I hit the ground more times than I care to mention and the arrow looks the same except for the sinew wrappings are a little dirty, which adds to the authentic look. I have abused the ash foreshafts in the same manner with the same results.
Cane, the poor man's carbon. Or, cane, the smart man's arrow. Take your pick, mine's the poor man's arrow as brains don't run in my family. :knothead:
Post by: Matt E on July 26, 2003, 08:04:00 AM
Take care all.
Post by: the Ferret on July 26, 2003, 08:59:00 AM
Post by: Killdeer on July 26, 2003, 03:39:00 PM
The beauty of a Latin name is the lessening of confusion that arises when using "common" names. F'rinstance, there must be six different plants that go by the common term "umbrella plant".
The way I look at it, unless you are making museum quality replicas, do what the natives did and use what comes to hand. The only worry then is, "Will it shoot?" :)
It probably will, unless you're me!
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Killdeer
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 26, 2003, 09:27:00 PM
I think it looks pretty good...here is a closer (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82964063rSNlTb) shot of the feathers.
2 days ago, me and the wheelie shootin godson went to the outdoor range, shot some rounds, followed it up with some stump shooting...and in the process...got another one! (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82964250rNYmgC) he is sleeping over tonight so we can work on the rest of those arrows...then we will start working on his bow!!! (longbow that is LOL!!!)
oh yeah, before I forget, here is the baby (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82964152QgtmEv) shot you knew was coming!!!!
Post by: Timo on July 26, 2003, 09:51:00 PM
Young apprentice shows signs of his masters humor! :bigsmyl:
And as always,your little angel is just that! :thumbsup:
Post by: Dano on July 26, 2003, 10:02:00 PM
Post by: Killdeer on July 26, 2003, 10:56:00 PM
Hailey is a work of art!
The arrow is wonderful as well. Really like the feather cut. Gotta get off my gozeimus and get some done for myself!
Thanks for letting us tag along and learn. :D
Killdeer
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 27, 2003, 02:23:00 AM
anyway, we puttered around with some goose feathers, (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82993123qxvRPg) we were initially going to try those, but Chris (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82993110JuLydN) desided he liked the looks of the barred turkey better. We got the nocks cut into the arrows, this time we tried to sinew in the front of the feathers first. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82993202gncbXO) tommorrow we will finish the sinew, and put a point on, cut the feathers to size. the reason they look wonky in the picture is it is easier to tie in the back of the feathers if they are shorter, so we trimmed a bit.(will clean it up later)
Then I had an eppifany (sp?) and dragged out a glass point (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82993243lijpqG) David Rhodes had made for me. I really dont know how to install it, but I friction fit it, and will sinew it maybe tommorrow. what do you think? (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79608121/82993320fCTqya)
I am having a blast with this stuff, so is Chris.
and hey, thanks for the point David!!!
Post by: Timo on July 27, 2003, 08:54:00 AM
Or you you could use epoxy!Just make sure you get it straight.Then just sinew the shaft behind the point.
Post by: Killdeer on July 27, 2003, 08:57:00 AM
I have used pine pitch to seat obsidian points, but as a shortcut, have found Elmer's carpenter glue to work as well. It being basically a hide glue, I don't feel too guilty. ;) I like having a "pad" behind the point, it is less likely to shatter that way.
I pretty much have the mindset that the arrow will only be shot once, and that will be at game. Its first flight must be perfect!
Some folks shoot them at bales, however, with no harm done except perhaps dulling.
I have had moderate success waterproofing the sinew lashings with a mixture of pine pitch and deer fat (which I tried out of the bone marrow in a cast iron skillet. Split the bones or prize it out of the tubes with a stick or wire.). The tricky part is getting the right ratio of fat to pitch, and applying it neatly. Not enough fat and the pitch cracks off the wraps, especially in cold weather. Too much and it rubs off.
Sometimes I think maybe a good shot of polyurethane would be nice! :eek:
Killdeer
Post by: Splinter on July 27, 2003, 11:24:00 AM
Killdeer reminded me of something. With the pine pitch, never mix all your ingredients at once. That way, if you get too much tallow or grease or beeswax to your mixture, you can add more pitch until you get it right.
I have also had success using Knox to set points.
A smidgin or two of poly would probably help and the game will expire just as quickly as without it. :thumbsup:
Post by: Matt E on July 27, 2003, 12:07:00 PM
Take care all.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 27, 2003, 12:18:00 PM
Post by: Matt E on July 27, 2003, 12:53:00 PM
Take care all.
Post by: Splinter on July 28, 2003, 09:24:00 PM
I just use a pop can with the top cut open almost all the way, leaving the top as a makeshift handle. Next, I melt, not boil, the pitch over low heat. I used about 3/8" melted pitch in the bottom of the can. Next I added maybe a teaspoon, probably less of powdered charcoal. After this, I barely touched the Crisco with my finger and added it to the mixture. You will have to reheat often while mixing. Sal gave me a good idea that I have yet to try, adding some shredded grass for support. Kind of like the concrete you get now with fibers in it. You'll just have to experiment really, but that's half the fun.
Sorry I haven't gotten around to the pics of the foreshafts. It seems a brown recluse decided to keep my bed warm while I was at MoJam. I have been restricted to the couch and the PC. Give me a week or two and I'll put together a little tutorial.
Post by: ky_longbow on July 28, 2003, 11:13:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 28, 2003, 11:55:00 PM
Post by: Flatstick on July 29, 2003, 07:47:00 PM
I'm gonna try some of these cane arrows. I picked up some river cane and some bamboo shoots at Mojam, too bad you weren't there :p . Would have been nice to meet ya. I probably should have asked more question when I was there with the Gurus.
My question is, how "straight" is straight when your talking about cane or bamboo shafting? Do you or anyone out there have pics, looking down the length of the shafting? I have started the initial straighting but how straight can I expect to get them?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 29, 2003, 08:02:00 PM
Post by: Murray on July 29, 2003, 08:18:00 PM
You got a grain scale? What are your Cane arrows weighing?
Take care, Murray
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 29, 2003, 08:35:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on July 29, 2003, 09:57:00 PM
Madpig as far as straightness goes you'd be suprised how straight a really crooked arrow will shoot. A little wobble is ok as long as the tip and nock are in alignment.
Post by: Splinter on July 30, 2003, 12:03:00 AM
Murray, I have three cane self arrows. They are 29" long with a 125 gr. field tip. One is about an inch shorter, but bigger diameter. They all hit around 540 grs. I can't wait to shoot these babies at a deer.
Kentucky, I got it on the foot, walking has been a pain in the... leg.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 30, 2003, 12:38:00 AM
I need to verify my findings.
thing went like a carbon...but 6.7 gr/lb? I think not.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 30, 2003, 12:48:00 AM
a grain scale just went to the top of the list.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 30, 2003, 12:54:00 AM
ideas are welcome here! they used a cedar block I think in the TBB (3?) to act as a straight guide.
Post by: the Ferret on July 30, 2003, 07:16:00 AM
A tip for getting the tip mounted straight so that it will spin ....look down the shaft as if straightening and line up the tip of the point with the centerline of the shaft, turn it so that you are looking at the other side of the head and verify that it's straight. If the tip is in alignment with the centerline of the shaft on both sides it should spin like a top.
Post by: Madpigslayer on July 30, 2003, 12:16:00 PM