Trad Gang
Topic Archives => Build Alongs => Topic started by: fletcharrows on September 25, 2004, 12:44:00 AM
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I'm wondering if there many folks here that might like to participate in a buildalong? I've seen lots of questions lately about how to build glass backed bows and I thought it might be nice to share the construction of a bow from beginning to the bitter or sweet end. If there are a few that would like to do this, I will start the buildalong tomorrow. Let me know.
fletch
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I'd sure watch.
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Mike,
I'd really appreciate your time in doing a build along.
Terry
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Sounds good to me.
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Certainely. We can learn something new everyday. John.
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Ditto, I'm sure I can learn a thing or two. Besides I always love to look at bows. Mike
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OK then - I am changing the name of the topic and getting started - I hope it all works out. Here are the particulars of the build:
The bow is a Hill style reflex longbow. More specifically, it is a St. Charles style bow in most respects. The bow will have 5 laminations of Yew plus glass and an all Yew riser.
fletch
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http://community.webshots.com/s/image21/2/73/31/191627331kZlsah_ph.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/s/image16/1/97/19/191719719IKVRsq_ph.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/s/image17/2/34/5/191723405AwsXHb_ph.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/s/image16/2/34/26/191723426GczQhP_ph.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/s/image18/2/34/58/191723458VqwHsX_ph.jpg
http://community.webshots.com/s/image21/2/34/99/191723499CpKrCg_ph.jpg
Here are the first 6 pictures of the build. I picked out a piece of Yew for the riser, drew my outline for the fades and cut the riser on my bandsaw. I then had to grind the fades to allow them to blend in with the limbs as they are glues up. The last half inch at least on the fades should be so thin that the wood can almost be seen through.
fletch
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Mike,
Picture didn't come up for me.
Terry
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The pics are pretty large so I am posting mostly URLs so that the resolution is better. I will edit some down so that they come up on the page. All of the pics will be in the webshots album.
fletch
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Fletch none of the pics are accessible.
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So I see - I'm thinking maybe a photobucket account - I'll try to fix this toot-sweet.
fletch
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Here we go!!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/3.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/6.jpg)
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Michael, what are you useing to grind the fades? Nice progress so far, man I love bow build-a-longs.
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Here you go Dano - I place a block over the fade and grind it on a horizontal sander. The block allows me to get the wood much thinner without breaking it than doing it without. Of course this is a different riser cuz it's too late to get my 10 year old to take a shot of the Yew riser getting ground.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/8grindingfades.jpg)
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Very nice. Thanks for sharing.
Jawge
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Good stuff. You cant beat buildalongs. John in N.S.
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Time for the next step - the laminations have to be glued together. I grind an angle in the end that will be the center of the bow and glue them together with 5 minute epoxy. I use a spring clamp and wax butcher paper to give a smoothe clean finish on the joint. This eliminates most of any grinding work that may need to be done on this joint. Like I said - this bow will have 5 layers of Yew. It will have three layers on top (those that need glued together) and two layers on the bottom. After the joints are set and leaned up we will be ready to glue up the bow as a unit. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/9.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/10.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/11.jpg)
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OK - I hope somebody is still watching this because now I am going to go through what most guys consider the stressful part of this job. I am going to lay up the bow.
First - get all of the components ready and apply Blue Masking tape to the finish side of the glass. This will keep the glue from sticking to the glass and ruining it. I put wax paper down on my bench while I'm working. After layup, you can simply throw it away. Give me little feed back guys so I know I'm not out of order for you.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/13.jpg)
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Yep the layup can be stressful if you don't practice it.
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Next - check your form and make sure everything is ready. The hard surface the back will sit on should be clean and all of the locking bolts should be close at hand. Cover the backing surface of the mold with plastic. Don't use thin stuff like saran wrap as it can fold up and get between your laminations (I learned that the hard way).Tape it down out by the ends. When you are confident that everything is ready to go, wipe the glass lightly with a clean cloth dampened with acetone. Have a roll of strapping tape handy - and another length of plastic to protect the pneumatic hose.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/14.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/15.jpg)
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There are several types of glue that can be used. I use Smooth-On. Mix up your epoxy per manufacturers recomendations, with smooth-on it is 50/50. I mix up enough that it nearly fills a small cat food can. Don't get into a hurry - you have plenty of time to get through this step unless it is 100 degrees in your shop. If you have parellel lams - they should be part of the back. Lay each Layer down, beginning with the 72" piece of glass. Coat each surface with a thin even layer of epoxy before joining. Mark the center line of the last full length lam before you coat it with epoxy. Coat the long side of the riser and place it over the center line of the bow. The riser should also be marked. Before you lay down any belly lams, tape the handle down tightly with the strapping tape I said needed to be close at hand. I use at least two wraps over the handle to keep it in place. Continue putting on the belly lams using the same method of coating each and every surface with a thin layer of adhesive. After the last piece of glass is laid on, tape the lams in place at three or four tape points along the limb. This is done to keep all of the bows components lined up before and during the pressure application. Place the second piece of plastic over the lay-up and tape it into place.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/12.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/16.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/17.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/18.jpg)
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When you are sure the lay-up is secured to the form and cannot move and the plastic is over it, place the pressure plates on the limbs making sure not to run them up over the ends of the lams at the riser. Then place the air hose over the pressure plates. Next, carefully fit the top of the form down over the air hose and the recieving holes and insert the lock bolts and tighten them down. The next thing to do is make sure - one more time- that the lay-up is in the right place. Take care to check the alignment of the riser. That is the part that most moves for me. Attach an air line with 50 to 60 lbs. of air. I have my rig set up so that I keep a constant air supply to the bow frame. I dont have a bicyle stem like they suggest. I worry about leaks. With a constant air supply there is less chance of premature pressure release. Also, it seems that if you pump up the tube to 60 lbs, place it in a hot oven - the air pressure can rise dramatically with the heat and possibly cause glue joint starvation. When the air is applied and the lay-up looks good. Off we go and put it in the oven to bake for 4 hours at 140 to 150degrees.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/19.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/20.jpg)
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Can't thank you enough for doing this. Do you live in Vancouver, WA? Just north of Portland?
Stan
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This is great! I can't wait to have a go at building a bow myself.
Thanks!!
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I'm still watching. Thank you for doing it.
Jawge
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You are all very welcome and yes I do live in washington. I am in fact about 5 miles North of Portland Oregon in Orchards, Wa. which is an Eastern burb of Vancouver. So far I must be doing a good job cuz there aren't many questions. I will continue.
fletch
PS - Stan - If you live close, you are welcome to make arrangements and use my shop.
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Still watching and learning. Keep up the good work Fletch, and thanks.
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When the baking is completed, take the bow frame from the oven, disconnect the air and remove the locking bolts. Put away the hose and pressure plates. I cannot stress enough that this step absolutely needs to be done while the bow is still warm. Waiting overnight will increase your work exponentially. Carefully cut away the tape that is holding the bow to the form. After the tape is cut away lift up the stave from the frame. At this point several small pieces of wood have become through your work - a bow stave. Also - the glue that has been speezed from the stave and cooked can be and usually is razor sharp. Use gloves when handling the stave until is has been cleaned up some. Head for the horizontal ot open drum sander and gring the excess glu from the edges of your stave. Try to true up the stave. You can put a line down the center if you need to. I use a power drum sander to true up my staves after grinding off the excess glue. The sander leaves the stave perfectly parellel. I ground this stave to 1 1/4" wide. The particulars of the stave are now on the riser - 69" overall by 1 1/4" wide.
hope this helps so far
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/21.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/22.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/23.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/27.jpg)
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this is too neat...can't wait to see more
stan
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It seems that the photobucket server is very slow on the weekends and since my post has tons of photos - they are going very slowly. I will continue the post tomorrow when the server won't have so many folks using it and i can upload my images more quickly.
fletch
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I love these Bow Build-a-longs. Thanx a lot for doing it
P.S. This is my first time seeing a laminated bow being built. this is all really interesting
caveman
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Continuing on now that photobucket is running. I forgot the mention in the lst set that the reason you need to get all the glue and true up the stave is to get the tape off. Don't let the tape sit on the stave overnight. It turns to concrete and will make life awful--just, just awful. Now that the stave is together and is beginning to look like a bow, trim the ends of the stave to get a good flat end and 45 degree sand the corners or round the ends so you dont accidently peel the bow if you try to bend it. The bow can be bent at this time to make sure it doesnt pull several hundred pounds.Now, put a fresh layer of masking tape on the bow (both sides). this keeps you from scratching the glass and gives you something to draw on. Draw the tapers of the bow limbs on the tape. As seen in the pictures, draw the tips in at about 1/8" wider each side of the tips. this allows you to file in string nocks and still grind them back out if they are in the wrong spot. Cut out the outline on a bandsaw. You will require a blade of 6 to 10 teeth per inch and the glass will ruin it for cutting wood. You should be able to cut out several bows with it but it will be in bad shape. After you cut it out - measure out from the center of the riser to the length of your limb. In the case of this bow 33" (66" bow)from the center and put a mark - do the same on the other end. File in shallow nocks and brace it up. Measure the distance to the string at each end of the riser. If one measurement is more than the other, this end should become the top to save on sanding. Check to make sure the string runs down the center of the stave. If not then mark the tape as to which direction the nocks need to be filed. File the nocks until the string is in the center of the stave. After you determine the top limb - cut out the site window. The shelf is drawn to within 1/8" of the center. It can be cut farther but it is not necessary. then using the end of a horizontal sander with 50 grit, start roughing in your handle. I use a drum sander on the drill press to shape the shelf. To clean up the curves of the handle when you get close you can use a flap wheel sander.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/28.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/29.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/36.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/37.jpg)
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Real nice, there's some good character in that piece of yew.
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Now that the handle is taking shape and the bow is bending properly - peel back the paper a few inches from the ends and rough up the glass with 120 grit wet or dry and glue on material to make overlays. Make sure to put and even coat on all surface to be joined. It doesn't matter how wide the material is because it can be trimmed on the bandsaw. Do make sure that the overlay material is tapered to a point at one end to avoid heavy sanding where it fades into the limb. After the epoxy sets up - trim off excess and file in the finish location of the nocks. Then using the horizontal sander, finish the taper on the limbs and finish the file job on the nocks. then go ahead and shape the end of the limb. I recommend leaving enough material here to easily use a bow stringer.
We are nearly done --
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/38.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/39.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/40.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/41.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/44.jpg)
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Most of what is left is sanding and finishing. Begin with 120 wet or dry and sand every inch of the bow glass with the grain. Especially take care to sand and smoothe the edges. then sand with 220 grit and maybe on to 400 grit. I have shot the first coat on the riser but it will be a few days before the bow is ready to be photograghed as finished. I will show you how I shaped the fades and where the glass ends. There are however, a couple of problems with the handle. As I said in the beginning - it could be a sweet or a bitter end. The next instalment will be how I dealt with what Dano called "good character".
fletch
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Michael,
This has really been a great thread so far. Thank you for taking the time to post. Let me know when you have a free weekend and I'll come up if I can. I've got the glass, laminations, riser and epoxy. Don't have forms, but would like to build them.
Stan
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Thanks a bunch sir. great build along, wanted to be there watchin over your shoulder.
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Nice job on the build along Mike. Sure appreciate your time to share with everyone.
Terry
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A danger of working with Yew and as I have discovered, Black Walnut - a perfectly good looking piece of wood can have hollow spots that are not apparent from the outside. They are damaged spots in the wood that occurred early in its life and then are covered up by years of growth. This handle was cut from the outside of a tree and as I ground in the handle I found a hole. The hole is about 1/4" wide and 3/8" to 1/2" deep. It is the remnant of a knot. I also found a small spot of soft wood exactly next to a small knot that was very sound out at the edges of the roughed riser. I took a good sharp knife and hollowed out these holes so that all of the soft wood was removed. I left the black wood around the edge of the hole so that my patch would still look like a knot when finished. In fact the patch will look more and more like a knot as time goes on because of the wood I put into the patch mix. I put epoxy on a piece of wax paper and mixed in Yew sawdust from my bandsaw until I got a very thick paste of filler. I then carefully pack the epoxy into the holes making sure to get out all of the air that might be in there. I then put clear tape over the epoxy to add pressure and it gives me a clean flat surface to work with after it sets up. After curing, I file the excess off the patch and sand until smooth. This gives me a very reallistic looking knot without the danger of continued deterioration.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/45.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/46.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/47.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/51.jpg)
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As a small finishing touch - I drilled a tiny hole in the upper tip. this hole will be used to secure a string keeper on the bow. All we have to do now is finish sand and spray the bow.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/52.jpg)
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A great buildalong Fletch.Cant wait to see the finished product. John in N.S.
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Fletch, Great buildalong. How large of a bandsaw do I need? Got a small Delta Bandsaw from Home Depot that was like $100. Will this be big enough to cut with?? Thanks
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It will be big enough to cut risers and trim the bow up. I think as a hobby saw it will work. I only have a 14" 1 HP. saw and I use it to mill rough lumber. I think the quality of the blades also helps. You need to be able to cut about 3" high for the site window. Of course the shelf will need to be shaped with a file or dremel tool after the site window is roughed out.
fletch
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Well - I believe this bow is finished except for writing its details on the side and signing it. the bow came out at 66" nock to nock. It pulls 51# @ 28" and made entirely from Yew with Black glass backing. It has leather on the handle and rest and plate and a really cool flemish twist string keeper. It was fun and enjoyed showing this one off. I'm going to place it at the Vendor Depot as my first offering there.
fletch
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/53.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/54.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/55.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/fletcharrows/56.jpg)
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Very nice bow. I like the black glass, but am surprised you did use clear to show the yew. It looks like you used a 21-22" riser. Do you have a force-draw curve? I like to plot them on mine just to see where it starts to stack, and it only takes 4 minutes. It ought to be pretty fast.
Jason
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Jason - The bow scales like this,
37@23
39@24
42@25
46@26
49@27
51@28
That is as close as my scale gets and should be within a pound at each measurement. Also, yes it is a 21" Riser.
fletch
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Very nice work and a great buildalong .Thanks very much Fletch it has been very informative. John in N.S.
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Michael, it turned out great. Thanks for taking the time to share with us.
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You are more than welcome Dano. I really enjoyed taking all the picture and writing it up. I am still willing to answer questions and while I may downsize some of the pics - I have no plans to take the builalong pics down off of photobucket.
fletch
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Thanks for doing the buil along. The bow you made is in the draw weight range I like. What are the lamination thicknesses you used. I would like to reproduce the bow you made.
Thanks casey
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There are 5 lams on each side. The thick ends were about .072" tapered .001 per inch. 2 are not tapered. When photobucket chooses to be online, you can see in one pic that the bow thickness at the fades is .405".
fletch
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I was sent a note telling me that the pictures were not coming up. I checked and photobucket lost all of the pics. fortunately, I had all of them in a file and realoaded them to photobuckets server. I hope this stays together for awhile cuz I am still getting questions about building emailed to me. see ya soon
fletch
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How does it shoot?
Are those all arrow shafts in that bucket?!?!?!
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very nice.
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Thanks this is great!!
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Hey Fletch,
Thanks for the post....very informative and it's "sparked the fire" that I have.....I'm going to look into building my own bow. I provide the following scenario and pose the following question to any of you that read this.....
If I do take the plunge and decide to build my own bow, should I consider a 1-piece (that can be made 2-piece T/D) or a 3-piece T/D? The question really rises from the fact that I expect once I make one bow, I'll make others....many others....just trying to get opinions on what others would do.
I'd like to make something that is easily transportable (my 58" LB is too long to fit in my trunk). That being said, I could make several LB's that are 2-piece or one riser with several sets of limbs and have one bow that does lots of things. Thoughts?
Also, since I'm at it.....air pressure in the bow press or rubber bands to start? Why?
Thanks in advance.
Homebru
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Hombru
Last first - air pressure is best because it is more consistent. You get a good even push at 55-60lbs per sq. inch on the ressure plates. second - I use the Dyckoff sleeve because I like the way it looks. I really like the trad style Longbow and R/D bow and the sleeve leaves the profile intact. It also adds a bit of weight to the center which takes out any kick the bow might have had. Do remember that the sleeve needs to be installed before the bow is shaped to allow for moving the tips to center. There are a few other tips so email me if you decide to try. Also - why not make all the bows you need once you start making bows. It doesn't really take any more work to make a complete bow versus a pair of limbs. There is no need for multiple limbs when you have the capability of making a bow for a specific purpose and each bow has the ability to be a new work of art.
Luke -
I make arrows - I have over 20,000 shafts somewhere in the shop. In short - Yes they are arrow shafts. The bow shoots super. I put three arrow through it to test the shelf and rest and I was impressed. Even without a nocking point, it shot right where I was looking at 15 yards.
fletch
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Thank you
My next project I hope. I will save all your pictures and instructions.
It is all the sharing here that makes the difference.
Thanks
Horace
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Thought I would move this back to the top as I still have the bow for sale in the Vedors Depot. It is cheap too - It would be perfect for a christmas gift.
fletch
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Well it either sold or I didn't see it. :(
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I looked and it is still there. Eigth or ninth down in the Vendor Depot forum.
fletch
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Really great buildalong! Thanks for sharing!
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Thanks for sharing, it was very interesting and it turned into a great looking bow . Bue--.
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Fletch,
Don't know if its just me or not but I still don't see it on the vendor depot. When I did a seach for your name I found it though. Hopefully its just me that can't see it for some reason.
Just FYI.
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I posted a reply to my own add in the Vendor Depot to move the post to the top. It seemed to work for me. As of right now - the add is on the top of the list. Thanks for watching this topic.
fletch