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Topic Archives => Build Alongs => Topic started by: rocdoc on January 06, 2005, 09:49:00 PM

Title: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 06, 2005, 09:49:00 PM
Thought I'd get cute and make a 'boo backed / 'boo bellied bulletwood bow.  I backed the bullet plank and then 'flat belly tillered' it to 44# @ 28".  The tiller looks very good at this point.  I'm shooting for 50# @ 28".  My belly boo is very thin and after gluing it on the tiller is still very close!

Problem is, the bow weighs 50# @ 24" and I'm concerned about altering the tiller when I scrape between the nodes to drop weight.  How much weight can I expect to be able to take off by scraping the boo?  Like I said, the boo is very thin on the belly.

Any advice would be appreciated JOHN, JD ???
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: the Ferret on January 06, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
Wow you gained approx 18# with the addition of that boo. Unreal. Can't help with with this one Doug, I am now the student ready to learn from you, JBS, JD etc. Will watch this with great interest.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Sparky on January 06, 2005, 10:07:00 PM
Are you saying you have BB full node on the belly as well? Dang...I don't know if scraping in between the nodes will get you what ya want for end results. Sounds like at best a series of hinges...at worst, you'll violate the power fibers in the Boo resulting in I don't know what?
 IMHO...I would Take the nodes down to a pleasing height and try to reduce weight with width reduction and leave the belly wood alone unless you have a tremendous amount of weight to loose.
  I have never done one bit if it were I..that is what I would do....  :bigsmyl:
  Very intersting concept....

Sparky
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 06, 2005, 10:15:00 PM
Sparky....I've put boo underlays on a few bows and really haven't had any hinge problems.  The nodes remain 'proud' but I do work them down as well.

Mickey.....that's what I thought!  I expected maybe 8 to 10 pounds.  I think that Urac has some very good bow qualities to it    :)   My boo was DEFINITELY thin, felt like a piece of poster board before I glued it on.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 06, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
Doug, how wide is the bow? And how much have you already traped the back?  I've only experimented with just a handfull of boo and boo:) Sturtevant has been building quite a few of these bows so maybe he'll chime in, he always has great advise... Really not much you can do but scrape the belly from node to node and try not to flatten the nodes, scrape a little here and there and work the snot out of it on your tillering form, one other thing is once you've scraped the belly boo you've thinned the power fibers, so what I do is lightly torch the belly boo until its a nice light tan color, heck it'll probabaly add 5 pounds back to the bow:) your actually tempering it or drying the snot out of it:) but if you don't torch the belly you'll have a bow that will be somewhat of a dog at speed, just try it you'll be shocked:) also tiller usually doesn't change with this process
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Timo on January 06, 2005, 10:23:00 PM
Could a fella trap the belly and back?

(Forgive me,I'm new at this)  :knothead:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Brian Halbleib on January 06, 2005, 10:26:00 PM
Not sure if you have any old "Primitve Archer" magazines around but in the Fall 2001 issue, Stefan Seitz wrote a good article on an all boo laminated bow. I just dug this out a few months back because I'm ready to try one myself.

He says in one part of the article "Due to the high tension strength of bamboo, the pressure on the belly is the critical thing. So, contrary to the usual way of tillering a bow, tillering on an all wood laminated bamboo bow is done only on the back!"

At the time of the article, he had built 5 of that type of bow and the pictures were pretty impressive.

Keep us posted.

-Brian
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 06, 2005, 10:32:00 PM
JD....The bow is a 'D' bow with just a little bit of bend in the handle, 1" wide handle to mid-limb and tapering to 3/8" at the nocks.  63" ntn.  

Thanks for the tempering advice.....I'll try that.  Not sure I like the way you said TORCH IT!     :scared:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 06, 2005, 10:36:00 PM
Almost forgot to answer your trapping question JD.  I didn't trap it very 'deep' on the back, just about 60 degree angle and only down to the edge of the bulletwood....didn't really trap the 'boo into the wood.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 06, 2005, 10:40:00 PM
Brian, I remember the article, sounded weird to me to about taking boo off the back, heck I'm not about to take a chance and scrape thru the power fibers on the back, five bows without a failure sounds solid tho... Hey Doug why not try it and tell us how it works:) no realy as much time and attention that I take to not ding or mark the bamboo's back I'll hafta pass on tillering it from the back:)
Tim, you probably could trap back and belly but it might get kindof squirrely on side to side bending..
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Timo on January 06, 2005, 10:47:00 PM
Then hunt squirrels with it!.....jesh! LOL  :D
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 06, 2005, 10:49:00 PM
lots of them squirells around Stillwater OK:)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Sparky on January 06, 2005, 11:07:00 PM
Oooooooooo......


Sparky
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: NEW GUY on January 06, 2005, 11:22:00 PM
This is cool Rocdoc.  Could we maybe get some pics, so us newbies could get a feel for some of the things yall are talkin about.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 06, 2005, 11:46:00 PM
Shane.  I didn't take pics up to this point but I'll try and get some tomorrow.  Maybe by then John Sturtevant will have given me some advice.     :thumbsup:

JD....squirrels huh!  I guess I had that commin'...did you get the basket of oranges I sent ya?     :rolleyes:   When I get to the point of tempering the belly boo, can I use my heat gun?  I know you prefer your torch, but you're a border line  "pyro" and I prefer the use the gun when I can.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Pat B on January 06, 2005, 11:51:00 PM
You can get some weight off by scraping the sides. Also, like Timo said, trap the back. I had to do that on a boo backed lam bow I built. I beveled the top edges to where the back was about 1" wide and the limb was 1 1/4" wide. Do it gradually and check weight often.   Pat
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: wingnut on January 07, 2005, 06:33:00 AM
Doug,

It's sounds like you might be close enough to strt rounding your edges.  This will take a bit of weight off.  Also work that bamboo a lot.  I have had it relax after 50 pulls or so and settle in a few pounds lower then I thought.

Mike
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 07, 2005, 07:33:00 AM
Interesting Doug. I was given a fiberglass longbow a friend made, this bow was about 100#@28. I took the bow limbs down to 1" then trapped the belly till it was 5/8" at the fades down to 3/8" at the tips, ended up about 60#@28. I know this is a little different but trapping the belly width does take a ton of wieght off. Just my 2 cents. Good luck nice project.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 07, 2005, 08:44:00 AM
Doug, sound advise from all good luck and try and post some pic's
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Scifres on January 07, 2005, 08:49:00 AM
I've never made one like that but, I'd trap it to the extent possible the sand it all down and shoot it at target weight (whatever draw that is) until it settles in.  Then I think I'd start narrowing limbs until I had my weight and tiller.  Shouldn't take too much.  I saw that article a couple years ago too and had trouble visualizing it.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Hammerhead on January 07, 2005, 09:31:00 AM
I would contact Vinson Minor with that question.
The bow you are describing sounds like his cane dragons. He does boo belly and back.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Jason Jelinek on January 07, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
Make the next one a pyramid bow (only width taper and no thickness taper) and you won't have to tiller on the belly or the back.  The tiller will come from the width taper.  A 4:1 taper (1-1/2" to 3/8" will work) gives you a circular tiller.  This way you get all the power fibers on the belly and the back.

Jason
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 07, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
Doug, I’m still just learning how to make these also.   They can be “character builders”.  I’ve yet to build one that when I was finished I stood back and said “Wow….that’s perfect”.   It’s always “Hell, I can do better then that”….then I start another.  

 From what you’ve described you’ve really done an excellent job if your tiller is looking good and you’re only 4” away from your target weight / draw length.  You must have done a great job preparing your belly bamboo…that seems one of the keys to this type of bow.   I’ve started tiller the individual pieces of belly BB….bending them like they would be on the bow before glue up.   Figure if they don’t bend evenly before they are glued on then it’s just one more thing I’ll need to fight later.

You’re getting some great advice already.   My two cents, for what it’s worth.

-   Please don’t scrape between the nodes on the back….reducing the power fibers.  This is not a good idea.
-   If you can avoid scraping between the nodes on the belly, you’ll end up with a better bow.   I suspect you’ll be able to avoid this.
-   Work the devil out of those limbs, as JD already indicated.   Then work them a little more.   You’ve probably already figured out that you need to work the limbs more to register changes when using woods like bullet or blood wood vs. hedge.   Same seems to apply with the BB belly’s…particularly if the BB is tempered.  
-   I would reduce weight by trapping and rounding edges…like others have said.   I’ve got a couple that I needed to trap the belly almost as much as the back and they worked out just fine.  Trapping the back more can remove a surprising amount of weight, though, and that’s where I’d concentrate first.   Then rounding the belly edges more (assuming you’ve already done this)…then belly trapping last if needed.
-   Assuming the belly BB was not tempered before it was applied?    It does make a big difference in regards to retaining profile.   I have not tried the “torch” method after glue up…but if JD say’s it works then it does.
I might suggest tempering it before glue up next time.  No doubt there will be a next time.

All I can think of for now…   You’re going to end up with a great bow, and learn a lot in the process.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
John....glad you finally surfaced for air!  JD told me you had been making some of these so I'd hoped you could give me some advice.  I never even considered scraping the back boo...had too many problems with the first boo backed bows I made just because I scraped a little too aggresively getting the rind off!  

Knowing your standard of bows, I'm sure that the 'boo sandwiches' you've made are awsome, even if YOU think they aren't up to snuff.

I'm going to trap the back a little more and then spend a lot of time excersising the bow before I trap any on the belly.

I'll try and get some pics posted after while.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: don s on January 07, 2005, 05:32:00 PM
the article in primitive archer gives an e-mail address if there are any questions. here it is, assuming it's the same 3+ years later.
                                       don

      [email protected]
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 06:50:00 PM
OK guys.  I'm going to post a few pics.  Since I don't know how to post multiple pics on one reply I'll post them 1 at a time.  5 pics in all (for now).

Here's the first.....unbraced profile.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/DSC00003.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 06:53:00 PM
Braced at apx. 6"

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/DSC00004.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 06:54:00 PM
drawn to 24" (52#)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/DSC00007.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 06:57:00 PM
Actually that was only 20" draw.  I weighed it at 24" and 52#.

This is a pic of the strung bow showing string alignment.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/DSC00008.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 06:59:00 PM
This last pic shows how conservative I've been to this point on trapping the back.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/DSC00002.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 07, 2005, 07:06:00 PM
It's lookin real good, how ya doin at gettin the wieght off?


The bow Doug, the bow  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 07:12:00 PM
Dano!!     :mad:

Dano...I before E and sometimes Y and W.     "[laffsmyl]"

I haven't started scraping yet...a little bit gun shy.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 07, 2005, 07:17:00 PM
I always forget that rule, thanks for the lesson.  :D  

Ain't no rush, specially when your gun shy  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: NEW GUY on January 07, 2005, 07:33:00 PM
Thx for the pics Doug.  I think I understand what trappin means now. lol

That weight seems about right for us midget draw folks. haha
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 07, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Oh sure the New Guy spells it right  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: NEW GUY on January 07, 2005, 07:45:00 PM
ROFL..........just lettin you lead the way Dano.  ;)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 07, 2005, 08:38:00 PM
Looking great Doug.

You can only look at it and fret, stew and worry for so long though....better get to making shavings.   :)

Can't really tell from the pics, but did you stagger the nodes back to belly?   Makes them a little easier to tiller.

Vise looks a little whimpy for bow building.   :)  

That's all the smart arse stuff I can think of for now.  Heading out to the shop where I will try to think of some more.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 07, 2005, 08:50:00 PM
Nice Doug...

Tiller looks very good, looks as tho the back and belly nodes are not staggered as much as they should be but all in all it looks great, kindof hard to see that smooth tiller with nodes on the belly, right?  What about the handle? are you going to add something as I notice its more of a D bow...
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Timo on January 07, 2005, 09:15:00 PM
Doug, while you are fretting,might as well tidy up that shop a bit? ha,ha.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 10:46:00 PM
Timo.  I clean my shop EVERY June....not time yet    :D

JD / John.....Yeah, the nodes aren't spaced quite right.  I've got to be honest, I was trying to get a belly node placed in a certain area on one of the limbs about 10-12 inches from the tip because it was bending a little too much there.  Thought, no problemo...I'll just put a node there.  It worked but may bite me in the butt with the stagger on all the rest.  Kinda like robbin Peter to pay Paul.     :thumbsup:

JD......REALLY gotta squint to see the tiller with all them nodes.  Sometimes when I'm having trouble reading the tiller I take pics to view it that way.  It's a lot easier for me to tell from a picture than real life.....go figure.     :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 07, 2005, 10:51:00 PM
JD.  This is a 'psuedo-D' bow.  It bends through the handle and becomes rigid in only the center 3 inches or so.  I put a short (8") center lam between the bulletwood and back boo to stiffen it just a tad and 'bulk up' the grip area.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 08, 2005, 12:25:00 AM
I thought I noticed a mid-center lam... it is kindof hard to get your nodes staggered, one way I've did it is to use 2 seperate bamboo belly slats... once positioned I z-splice and viola, you'll find out its very hard to find just the right belly spaced noded belly bamboo...
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 08, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
Doug, I’ve done the same thing with the node in an area that “bent too much”.   It works.
I’m pretty sure those areas that “bend too much” are usually a flaw in the tree.   Always thought that was inconsiderate of the tree.

Easier to stagger the nodes when the belly lam is two pieces, as JD says.
You’ll be fine, doing great.

One other thing.
 I always like to try and identify the odds and ends people have in their shops.   I can see a box full of turkey feathers…TB glue….suitcase with all your clothes so you don’t have to go waste time going back in the house to change during bow building season….maybe a door knob on the floor?...and is that a jar full of cash behind your suitcase?   :)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 08, 2005, 09:40:00 AM
rodoc how thick are the lams???
 it looks to me like about 1/4 inch for the boo on the back maybe 1/4 -5/16 for 'core' and abot 1/8 - to 3/16 for the back...am i close?
 i have some bamboo slats comming to tinker with and i have some red oak around for a core wood that im thinking about using. neat little d bow!
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 08, 2005, 10:28:00 AM
John.  Very observant of you but the suitcase with all my clothes in it is because I CAN'T go back in the house (wife kicked me out).  The door knob is to make SURE I can't get back in the house (wife took it off).  Jar full of cash is my share of the divorce settlement (all one dollar bills)     ;)

Jamie.  Can't tell how thick the lams are....I don't measure them.  The back boo is thicker than the belly boo.  The 'core' wood started out at 1/2" tapered to 1/4" and was reduced from there after gluing the back boo on.

JD.  I wondered about a 2 piece belly AFTER I had already glued the thing on!  I'll bet that would make it much easier.....If I EVER try this again that's what I'll do.     :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 08, 2005, 11:06:00 AM
Some women don't have any sence of humor eh Doug.  :bigsmyl:  I'd be willin to bet you make another  ;)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 08, 2005, 11:29:00 AM
correction Dano. men have no sense of humer:) living proof here:) this barn sure is getting cold:)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Timo on January 08, 2005, 11:45:00 AM
J.D. I rekon  you could upgrade to burning "crows" instead of blackbirds? Might put off more heat?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 08, 2005, 12:08:00 PM
Good idea Timo......They'd probably taste better cooked JD; Not that you ever eat crow.     :bigsmyl:

I've been scraping all morning and have the bow down to 52# @ 26"....I'm afraid I'm going to be looking at a Urac bellied bow before long!

I haven't trapped the back any further because the bow is so narrow.  I'm worried about the limbs straying on me if I do, but If this belly gets much thinner I may have to.  Either that or give this bow to some gorrilla who can shoot it....Maybe Mike Hames???  That's a compliment Mikee.....don't want to offend you, I'm gonna need some Sage split come march.     :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 08, 2005, 12:33:00 PM
Geeze burn one blackbird, and people start accusing you of eating crow. Man this place is tuff.  :bigsmyl:  

It sounds like your bringing the weight down OK. How's she lookin?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 08, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
Not too bad Dano.  Got a couple of 'tiller imperfections' but those darn nodes are killin me.  Here's a couple more pics.  I'm down to 53# @ 27".  This first pic is braced and the next one is drawn to 25".  I couldn't draw it any further cause I was holdin the camera with one hand and drawin' with the other.     :cool:

Bottom limb is on left...1/8" to 3/16" postive tillered.

Braced:

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/6.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 08, 2005, 01:10:00 PM
Drawn to 25"....little flat at mid-limb and slightly 'hingey' just past the node on the belly....Oh well!  

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/5327inPBJ.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 08, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
I can imagine tillerin around them nodes is tuff, but dang Doug it looks pretty good to me, a little stiff at mid limb. Great progress if ya ask me.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Physh on January 08, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
Tiller the sides of the bows and the back...not the belly.

You can also tiller with heat...but this raises draw weight..
I imagine you can just take the heat gun to it to stiffen up an area or to make it bend right while the bow is braced.

Thats what they do with hornbows so you dont need to scrape so much.

It looks like you sanded the nodes a bit! Don't do that, the power fibers follow the bump on the nodes, if you scrape the nodes thats where it will most likely seperate.

Looks like its bending primarily right outside the fades. Maybe if while it was unstring you heated it there a bit with the heatgun, and after it cools down it should be stiffer. (there has to be a slight color change before it gets stiffer)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 08, 2005, 04:07:00 PM
Physh.  Are you suggesting I scrape the boo on the back of the bow?  Since bamboo is primarily a 'tensional' component I REALLY don't want to violate the power fibers on the back.  Also, this is a 'D' style bow so it really has no fades as it is supposed to bend through the handle.

Dano.  Yeah, that left (lower) limb is stiff at mid-limb.  I'll continue to work it some, but the node spacing won't allow me to remove material from the area that needs it most.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 08, 2005, 05:17:00 PM
I hear ya Doug, you know this is a very interesting buildalong, thanks I got faith in ya.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 08, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
Ya know......I'm really wondering WHY I did this.  The bbo's shoot really well WITHOUT the boo on the belly!!!     :confused:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 08, 2005, 09:12:00 PM
We never get anywhere settin still, and you ain't settin still.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: coonoongibber kid on January 09, 2005, 06:48:00 AM
you can contact me at web page (http://www.atarchery.com.au)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: coonoongibber kid on January 09, 2005, 07:22:00 AM
Welcome to tillering bamboo back and belly bows.Best not to touch bamboo backing at all.If you are going to scrape work edges and belly if you have to. Belly bamboo is under compression so you can get away with some reduction even on the nodes,this will help in final tillering and weight reduction.I would suggest you shoot 100 to 200 arrows out of the bow to finally settle bow in.Work bow back to your draw
when tiller looks pretty spot on .This will bring the weight down  to the real finished weight Dont be to hasty to reduce weight out until you work the bow in on the tiller board first and shoot it in.Cheers The Coonoongibber Kid  web page (http://www.atarchery.com.au)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Pete W on January 09, 2005, 07:53:00 AM
I thought that kieth {The Coonoongibber Kid } would be popping in here.
He is the bamboo guru from Australia that is building a couple bows for Herb Haines and me.There is a bit of knowledge on Boo bows that we can take from him.
Good to see you here Mr Keddie
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 09, 2005, 08:33:00 AM
Doug, I've asked the same question myself.  Figured out the primary reason to build BB belly bows is because they take longer.  Allows you more time to enjoy the process and you don't end up with so many bows laying around.  :)

And....If you got a whole jar full of one dollar bills in your settlement, you came out pretty good.

Have you worked the bow quite a bit?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
John.  Thanks man.....I knew there had to be an up-side.     :thumbsup:

I figured another application might be for all those bbo's I made that came in under weight.  I'm thinking a guy could remove the handle cap, flatten the belly and glue a peice of 'boo on the belly to bump the bow's weight quite a bit???

John....I guess I just had a good attorny.     "[laffsmyl]"  

Keith.  Thanks for the input and your web addy!  

Is it best to temper the belly boo BEFORE glueing it on or after you have finished tillering?  My guess would be before, but It's a pretty 'uneducated' guess.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 09:40:00 AM
Oh, yeah.  I have worked the bow a LOT on the tiller tree.  Only shot it a few times (that's all the shoulder's good for).  The last working session it seemed to be pretty slow in snapping back to shape after I unstrung it.  Looks like it's going to follow the string a bit.  I'm going to temper the belly boo this morning, do you think that will help with the string follow?

In retrospect, the center lam was a BAD idea.  Seems to have been a little too thick and a lot of my set is coming right past the lam.  Bottom line, either build a 'D' bow or don't....this psuedo-D isn't working.     :knothead:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Ralph Renfro on January 09, 2005, 09:42:00 AM
Doug, a couple of observations.  You have too much time on your hands! That answers your own question about WHY YOU DID THIS!!! Next is a heartfelt thanks for the pic of the bow in the vice. I now feel much better about the cluttered condition of my garage. I can see more of my workbench than you can. Finally, be verrrry careful with your comments about all your friends, as they are so important to your "getting work done without breakin a sweat" lifestyle.  As for the bow-Looks to be very close at this point. We could have JohnBow come over and do some munchkin scraping for you.  :knothead:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 09:51:00 AM
Dang Ralph...that pic showed the CLEAN side of my workbench!  I will be more diplomatic with my responses.....can't afford to jeopordize my "No Sweat" system.     :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
OK.  I heat tempered the belly 'boo and am amazed at how well it 'snapped' the bow back into shape.  Before tempering and having been unstrung all night it had about 1/2" of string follow.  Here is a pic after tempering.  Almost 1 1/2" reflex.  Of course I haven't exercised it since tempering, so I'm sure it's going to relax some, but I may end up with a straight bow after all???

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdoc
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 11:38:00 AM
Did that pic come up for anyone?  Not coming up on my computer.

Here's another potential problem.  I noticed this while tempering.  Don't know if it was already there or not, but I'm wondering if, because the belly nodes are under compression, do they have a tendancy to 'open up' checks?  Or maybe the tempering caused it and I heated it too much or too quickly?

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/Hoagiebellyboocheck.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 11:40:00 AM
Man, that's one 'out of focus' picture!

I'm posting the other pic again....see if it comes up this time.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/Hoagieposttemperedprofile.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Madpigslayer on January 09, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
cool! is that glue around the check?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: DCM on January 09, 2005, 02:16:00 PM
Interesting project.  You cash looks like a jar of zip ties to me.  I gotta get my eyes checked.  I've had boo check from quick drying or excessive drying.  Looks just like that.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 02:25:00 PM
MPS.  Yeah, while it was still warm from tempering I figured I might as well pump some CA into it.     :thumbsup:  

DCM.  I figured that It happened from the tempering.  I don't expect any problems from it....but then, what do I know?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 09, 2005, 03:47:00 PM
Doug, I've had boo check like that too... only thing I could assume was that the node area are always thicker so it holds on to moisture just a tad more, so when you heated it the check opened up from loosing moisture to quick, you done right on soaking it with CA glue, now if your going to stain the belly make sure you sand all the glue off as it won't take stain very well in that spot...
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 09, 2005, 03:55:00 PM
i think i missed it guys.... why is the center lam too thick? and if it wasnt there would you have a core of action boo or boo flooring or something???
 or were you just suggesting that you kept the thickness and just had a back of boo and a belly of boo , with a stiff handle section sandwiched in between?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 04:59:00 PM
Jamie.  I have an 8" long piece of yellowheart sandwiched between the back boo and the bulletwood.  I do this on the R/D bows I make, only I use a 16" long piece.  This bow is supposed to bend through the handle but I thought I could get away with a 'short' lam. to add a little substance to the handle area.  It's not too bad but by stiffening it there I put a little too much strain on the bow just past the ends of the lam and it caused it to take some set there.  After tempering the belly though, the bow looks like it's going to have a good finished shape to it; probably a straight-standing bow, which is what I was shooting for initially.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 05:02:00 PM
JD.  That's what I thought it probably was.  I found another node that opened up a litte too, so I heated it and CA'd it good.

I remember you telling me that superglue doesn't take the stain.  Of course, I've never had to use any superglue on any of my bows before so this is new to me.     "[laffsmyl]"    I'm not sure if I'll stain the belly or not.....any suggestions?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 09, 2005, 07:16:00 PM
why dont you 'tiger stripe" it using horseapples method. and stain the belly to match..if there is any inperfections the tiger stripe affect will hide it . just a thought.mtman
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 09, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Jamie.  Do you really think the fiddleback pattern will cover up the imperfections in tiller?     :thumbsup:

Shucks, I thought you had come up with a cure for  hinges.     :)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 10, 2005, 11:06:00 AM
Cracks going that way aren’t a big deal.  Irritating when they go the other direction, though.
Probably from drying too quickly.   Did you cure the belly lam in a hot box when you glued it on?  
Curious, how hot did you get the belly when torching?   Did the BB change color?
Sure brought the reflex back.

If you still can’t get the weight off you could soak it in the bathtub for a few days?   Just a thought….. :)

Keith...enjoyed your website very much, thanks.  
Do you temper the BB on your bellies?
Gotta ask….what is a Coonoongibber?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 10, 2005, 11:16:00 AM
are you ready to finsh the bow?
what are the finished specs , and did you say you trapped the belly more than the backing boo ?
do you have tip overlays , im dyin to see some pics! nice bow . mtman
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 10, 2005, 01:00:00 PM
Jamie.  I haven't finished the bow yet.  Still a bit too heavy for me to pull more than once!  I didn't trap the belly at all, but I did sand the edges pretty good.  Excessive trapping on a bow this narrow always gives me problems with the tips 'wondering' on me.  I will be adding water buffalo horn tips maybe this evening.  I'll be sure and post some finished pics.

John.  Yes, I did cure the belly lam in the hot box.  Only had the temp at about 125 deg though.  I used the heat gun to temper the belly and I guess it got fairly hot.  The boo just changed to a light tan color though....no scorch marks!     :D   I think I'll pass on the 'soak in the tub'.     :scared:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 10, 2005, 02:17:00 PM
sweet. i just ordered some 1 1/2 wd raw boo and sme 2 raw boo .
 i cant wait to try it! you are way more agressive than i on your first one...i am going for a mildly d/flx hill style , with a 1/4 red oak vert grain core and a boo and curly maple riser. i should be getting the stuff within a week or two. ill keep ya posted.then maybee you can help me out!
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 10, 2005, 07:44:00 PM
Kool Jamie!  Be sure and keep us posted when you get started.

I finally got it down to weight.  52# @ 28", and shot it quite a bit this afternoon.  I'm really pleased with the way it shoots.  Whisper quiet and no hand shock!  I've got the horn glued on the tips right now and am waiting for it to dry.  More pics later tonight or tomorrow.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 10, 2005, 08:20:00 PM
awesome!
 so you kept taking away from the profile to loose some of the weight? about how thick was youre center lam? and was it tapered?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 10, 2005, 08:29:00 PM
Super glue huh? never had to use the stuff either  :bigsmyl:    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 10, 2005, 09:00:00 PM
Jamie.  The bulletwood started at 1/2" in the handle area to 5/16" at the tips (thickness), so yes, I did taper it.  Bulletwood is MUCH denser than red oak, so you will need to start with a thicker 'core'.

Dano, I thought you were the guy at Mojam that had the SGBO?  (super glue backed osage)     "[tunglaff]"
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 10, 2005, 09:05:00 PM
No, thats Thunderbird, industrial strength epoxy  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:41:00 PM
OK guys.  Except for the clear coat, I'm finished.  Named this bow 'boo 'boo (obvious reasons).

Finished stats are 63" ntn; 52# @28".  I may re-do the handle wrap too, as I'm still not satisfied with the fit, but I wanted to get these final pics posted so we can put this thread to rest.     :wavey:

Posting 6 pics total, this first one is the unbraced profile.  Please ignore the poor pic quality and also the grid in the background, as I didn't clamp the bow in and it cocked a little before taking the pics.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/booboounbraced.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:43:00 PM
Braced at 6 3/4"

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/booboobraced.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:44:00 PM
Drawn to apx. 25" (best I could do one handed)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/booboodrawn.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
laced handle.  like I said, i'll work on this a little more after I get the clear coat on.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/booboohandle.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 12, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
nice stick roc! way to go.  :thumbsup:  

 bty...i just got my urac today!!!
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
Water buff. horn tip overlay.  sorry for the pic qual.  I'll buff this a little more too before finishing.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/boobootipoverlay.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 12, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
Looks great Doug, thought you were going to loose this one, nice job bud.   :thumbsup:  What's wrong with the handle wrap?
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
Tip...belly view.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/rocdocOSU/boobootipbellyview.jpg)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
Thanks guys.

Jamie.  May I suggest the first thing you do is put the liquid in a jar and the powder in a plastic container.  No need in fighting it, you'll end up doing it later.

Dano.  Really think I just need to stretch it a little more.  I'll probably spray it down when I put it back on. That should do the trick.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: farmerboy on January 12, 2005, 10:02:00 PM
Doug..  That bow sure is lookin good. The tip overlay looks cool. buffalo horn sweet..
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Timo on January 12, 2005, 10:06:00 PM
Turned out nice Doug! I too like the tips.Very nice feather under the nocks!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: horseapple on January 12, 2005, 10:10:00 PM
Nice one there bud, looks as tho it turned out good... Leather grip is sweet looking, seems like one of the old timers made grips like that:) Got some good news about the bulletwood...

Joe Don
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 12, 2005, 10:21:00 PM
JD.  Are you saying Mike Hames is OLD?    :saywhat:

I liked that type of 'universal rest' handle on this style of bow.  Mike's was the first one I had seen done like that...not sure where he got it, but you KNOW he plagarized it somewhere.  Not like I'd ever do anything like that, huh JD?     :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: NEW GUY on January 12, 2005, 11:18:00 PM
Man that is a sweet lookin stick, Doug.  That grip you put on there is cool.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 13, 2005, 08:11:00 AM
jar?? container?? i saw guys doing it but i thought it was because they bought a lot more than me i just have a pint. bty..how many bows will that make??
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: RainCrow on January 13, 2005, 08:25:00 AM
Doug,...Doug,...Doug!  Surely you were thinking about someone else when you made that comment about Mike being old.  I thought you needed osage split!  :eek:  

Great looking bow, can't wait to see it.  Are you shipping it out UPS or USPS?
 :bigsmyl:  

We need to get together and go squirrel/stump shooting (if your back will let you).  :thumbsup:

-Terry
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: nick_the_tinkerer on January 13, 2005, 08:31:00 AM
Nice Job...a very nice job.

Learned a bunch

Thanks

Nick
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 13, 2005, 08:50:00 AM
Thanks for the update.   I was actually worrying about this as I was driving home last nite.  Guess now I’ll need something else to worry about.
Nice job.  Have you started another one yet?   :)
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 13, 2005, 09:25:00 AM
Thanks for the comments and the help guys.     :thumbsup:

Terry.  I was banking on Mike not reading this thread.  I know YOU wouldn't tell him!     :mad:

John.  I've seen some of your bows, so I know why you weren't worrying about YOUR bow project, but MAN , you've got it bad when you start worrying about OTHER guys bows!     :thumbsup:  

  4) I will probably want to put the boo in the hot box at aroung 100 deg for a few days BEFORE gluing it on to the bow to prevent dry checks on the nodes.  (What do you think John?)

  5) I've got some 'early attempt' bbo's that came in under weight.  This looks like a good way to 'resurrect' them to hunting weight bows!.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Jimmy on January 13, 2005, 10:22:00 AM
Good Job man  :thumbsup:  

You know I have never built a bend in the handle bow. Must put that on my list of things to do.  :D  

Jim Nichols
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Scifres on January 13, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
Gorgeous tiller.  I love good tiller like that.  Pretty!
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 13, 2005, 02:30:00 PM
Thanks Jim and John.  Comments like that from respected bowyers like yourselves are what keeps me trying to make bows.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 13, 2005, 03:04:00 PM
That's why they don't tell us the truth Doug.  "[dntthnk]"    :D
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 13, 2005, 03:56:00 PM
Dano?  You're not suggesting these REPUTABLE men would withhold criticism to keep our fragile emotions in tact are you?     :confused:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Dano on January 13, 2005, 04:02:00 PM
:bigsmyl:  When your wife says " does this dress make me look fat?" It's not a lie if you don't hurt her feelings.


No I'm sure John and Jimmy don't care about our "fragile emotions".   "[laffsmyl]"
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 13, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
Doug, I worry about everything.   Particularly enjoy worrying about the most trivial things and the things I can’t control.

….and don’t for a minute think I don’t screw up bows.    If I didn’t I’m not sure I’d bother building very many.  

Thanks much for sharing your experience with us.   You did good.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: DCM on January 13, 2005, 06:13:00 PM
Doug that's a real fine tiller in anybody's book.  I bet that scoundrel shoots like a house-afire too.  Thanks for posting the build along.  Real entertainin'.  You too Jimmy.  Let's me bowyer vicariously thru you all, and never leave my chair!
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 13, 2005, 06:21:00 PM
Dang David, I've been lookin' for an easier way to satisfy this need.....tillerin' from my easy chair....I like that!     :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: Sparky on January 13, 2005, 09:20:00 PM
Dang...I come back and ya got'er done....LOL That's nice...how's the hand shock Roc?  Ral purty. I like that grip too!

Sparky
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 13, 2005, 09:45:00 PM
Sparky.  I can't notice any hand shock.  It had just a slight bit before I put the handle leather on.  I built up the front and back side of the handle with leather before putting the wrap on and that dampened what little there was.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 16, 2005, 08:58:00 PM
Sending this back to the top.....had a couple of guys that wanted to check it out.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 17, 2005, 02:38:00 PM
One more time for Jerry.

Jerry.....e-mail or call me and let me know if you found this!!
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: kcdaniels on January 17, 2005, 06:20:00 PM
I missed this build along , glad you brought it back ttt.
The bow came out great! congratulations  :bigsmyl:  
Thanks for taking the time to post this. very informative.
Dan
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: the Ferret on January 17, 2005, 08:33:00 PM
Pretty little bow Doug. Shoot one like that for awhile and you won't want to carry anything else. might I suggest a single arrow quiver to complete the outfit?   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 17, 2005, 09:00:00 PM
Good idea Mickey!  Don't you have a 'how to' for one of those on your site?  I'll check it out.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: the Ferret on January 17, 2005, 09:42:00 PM
Doug don't think there's a how to on the single arrow quiver..too easy. 2 triangles of leather stitched together with a leather cord on top to tie it to the upper bow limb. You can get professionally made ones from Dean or Hackbows son makes a dandy as well.
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: rocdoc on January 17, 2005, 10:04:00 PM
:thumbsup:   Thanks Mickey.  I was hoping you had a picture of one....much easier for me to 'plagerize' something I can see.     "[laffsmyl]"
Title: Re: 'boo backed / 'boo bellied....need advice!
Post by: the Ferret on January 17, 2005, 10:25:00 PM
I think there is a How To on a "floppy" single arrow quiver on the website but it is a little more complicated than the one I described above, but really a neat quiver. I made a 2 arrow model of the floppy for the javelina hunt and it worked perfectly, but around home I just use a single arrow model.